From Max Blumenthal at a pro-Israeli rally in New York City on January 11, 2009:
My title by the way is a direct quote from one woman at the pro-Israeli rally whom Blumenthal interviewed. The complete statement she gave Blumenthal follows:
Nothing good is going to come of it unless they [Israel] keep fighting all the way with it till they wipe them all out.”
Here are some other quotes from people who are presumably New Yorkers, and I assume most of them are American citizens:
Older woman: “There’s only one way to deal with a cancer. You either burn it out or remove it.”
Middle Aged man: “They [Hamas? Palestinians in general?] are forcing us to kill their children to defend our children, yes.”
Young, long haired man: “We [yes, he said “We”] try to minimalize [sic] casualties as much as possible — civilians. We have advanced technology.”
First woman (of two): “Wherever there is terror you have to get them out …”
[Blumenthal interjects here: Even in a school?]
First woman: “Wherever there is terror …”
Second woman: “Even in a school. You have to get them out. Otherwise no peace. No peace. We have to fight them.”
Young Orthodox Jewish man: “I can tell you one thing: Don’t mess with the Jews cuz we kick butt. Bang!”
Young woman: “It’s a repeat.”
[Blumenthal: A repeat of the Holocaust?”]
Young woman: “Yeah.”
[Blumenthal: How?”]
Young woman: “Um — We’re being persecuted, again. For the trillionth time ever.”
Woman with glasses: “The reason why more Israelis haven’t been killed or wounded is sheerly by the grace of God, because God has just been performing miracle after miracle.” … “Those who are dying [Gazans?] are suffering God’s wrath, but we also believe that when the Angel of Death comes out he takes everyone in his path.”
Man with hat: “If Hamas could not differentiate between … civilians and Army, we don’t need to either. I think we should go with all force and just go in and get them all.”
I think their words speak for themselves, don’t you? A rather horrifying revelation that so many people are so callous toward the plight of the people in Gaza. I know that this doesn’t represent the views of all New Yorkers or all American Jews. I know that many Jewish Americans would be appalled by the views expressed in this video. Nonetheless, its clear that a significant number of people view the lives of the Palestinians in Gaza as worth less than the value of Israeli lives. They also seem to believe that the collective punishment of innocent civilians in Gaza, including the deaths and injuries sustained by children as a result of the attacks by the IDF is morally justified, and that the Jews in Israel are the only real victims of this conflict. And that is simply horrific.
It is as if these individuals have learned nothing from the history of the Holocaust and all the other genocides carried out in the last century except one thing: Better them than us. I can’t tell you how ashamed I am that people in America support the slaughter of the people of Gaza based on such heartless, cruel, selfish and immoral beliefs.
Perhaps they should study the Talmud a little more, before they express such evil thoughts and desires:
Jews are compassionate children of compassionate ancestors, and one who is not compassionate cannot truly be a descendant of our father Abraham.
-Talmud, Beitzah 32bThose who have the capacity to eliminate a wrong and do not do so bear the responsibility for its consequences.
-Talmud, Shabbat 54bOne who destroys a single life is considered to have destroyed an entire world, and one who saves a single life is considered to have saved an entire world.
-Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:5
Very sad. And extremely disillusioning to this sr citizen who has friends who fled central Europe, lost family there or lived through it. All of them dedicated to civil rights and peace. To not forgetting. Just sickening that in little over half a century so little remains of the “never again” spirit.
That spirit is alive.
Jewish British lawmaker likens Israel to Nazis
AFPJanuary 15, 2009
LONDON – A veteran British Jewish lawmaker compared the Israeli offensive in Gaza Thursday to the Nazis who forced his family to flee from Poland.
Gerald Kaufman, a member of the Jewish Labour movement linked to Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s ruling party, also called for an arms embargo against Israel.
“My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town . . . a German soldier shot her dead in her bed,” Kaufman said during a parliamentary debate on the 20-day-old war which has left over 1,000 dead.
“My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza.
‘Parody‘ becomes reality as IDF drops white phosphorus on UN Headquarters in Gaza as UN Secretary General in area, horrified.
Turnabout becomes fair-play as first phosphorus rocket shot INTO Israel.
That is truly mind-boggling. Of course, Israel doesn’t want anyone from the UN there to witness what they’re doing…
The numbers and pictures are getting out and people who would support “wiping them out,” certainly do not represent everyone in the American Jewish community. I am certain that Jewish member of Jewish Voice for Peace are cringing at words like those.
And I thought only terrorist/insurgent/ thugs in Iraq targeted the UN.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28651944/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/un-hq-baghdad-bombing.htm
I think Israel has crossed the line by shelling the United Nations Headquarters in Gaza.
If it worked to get the UN out of Iraq, then it will work in Gaza. The UN has no teeth.
‘Gumming’ their way to any real effects on the outcome of this conflict seems futile if Israel is not shamed nito a cease-fire immediately. Short of that the UN can only effect things by being brave enough to stay in the way. Then they can expose inhumanity serve as proxy martyrs that the PTB (Powers That Be) care about, since PTB don’t care about Palestinian deaths, obviously.
After decades of study, observation, and contact, I feel comfortable in saying that it is impossible to shame Israel. If it were possible for countries to take on the characteristics of mental disorders, then Israel would be a classic sociopath/narcissist.
Israel has a history of targeting the U.N.
But I do believe this is the first time they have targeted the UN with a banned weapon. That might have just crossed a real line.
OMG! Hamas is using banned weapons! Filthy teghoghists!
Sorry – I meant Khkhkhkhamas.
Sad, but does anyone think that you wouldn’t get a similar response from, say, people in an Arab community like Dearborn if they felt free to speak? Does anyone think that Gazans don’t want to see all the Jews in Israel wiped out?
You could find the same eliminationist talk in just about all groups about other groups. I can remember hearing “kill all g**ks” during Vietnam. Go back a few years and look at what the Croats, Serbs and Bosnians were saying and doing about each other.
War is a means to create anger and fear and to organize within a group. Threats are exaggerated and dire solutions are easily accepted.
“does anyone think that you wouldn’t get a similar response from, say, people in an Arab community like Dearborn if they felt free to speak?“
I know for a fact that you would not.
“Does anyone think that Gazans don’t want to see all the Jews in Israel wiped out?“
I know for a fact that they do not.
Bob, you are really disappointing me deeply on this. I really had not seen you as someone who would accept ugly stereotypes like this without question, and make the kinds of baseless assumptions you have been making.
I appreciate the good words from the Talmud there at the end but you got to realize the vast, vast majority of Jewish Israelis are Jewish by “race” or “culture” rather than religion,
To use a simile, most Jewish Israelis are like Christians who go to church on Christmas and/or Easter and the rest of the time just try to live a vaguely defined moral life.
Obviously there are some deeply hardcore religious observers in Israel but they are a tiny majority.
Pax
True, that most Israeli Jews are secular. However, the most vicious and violent Israelis – and, may I say unjudaic in their attitudes and behaviour – tend to be the “uber-religious” ones. They may have been taught the Talmud, but they not absorbed its meaning.
To be fair, some of the most viciously and violently unIslamic Muslims are the “uber-religious” ones. They may have memorized the Qur’an, but they have not absorbed its meaning.
And the same in the USA with the evangelicals. And it makes me wonder if it’s the same in Sri Lanka with the Buddhists, etc. Just guessing but I guess it IS the same.
Pax
… because if we do, we’re going to have to get into all the time yahweh specifically endorses wiping out entire populations.
Or wipes them out personally
my favorite is the time in Numbers where the israelites came back from some battle, and moses made sure that all the male children were killed, the mothers murdered, and the daughters raped.
paine has a good deal to say about that in his condemnatiomn of the bible and religion in general.
Biblical scholar Raymond Schwager:
“… has found 600 passages of explicit violence in the Hebrew Bible [a.k.a. Old Testament], 1000 verses where God’s own violent actions of punishment are described, 100 passages where God expressly commands others to kill people, and several stories where God irrationally kills or tries to kill for no apparent reason. Violence … is easily the most often mentioned activity in the Hebrew Bible.” 6
Of the many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that describe major loss of life, most were conventional wars. Four of these events would probably qualify as genocides under most current definitions of the term. They were:
* The worldwide flood at the time of Noah as described in Genesis, chapters 6 to 8. From the description, it almost completely wiped out the human race, with the exception of Noah, his wife and sons and their wives.
* The Passover incident described in Exodus chapters 11 and 12, in which all of the firstborn of all Egypt were slaughtered.
* The conquest of Canaan, in which God ordered the Hebrews to completely exterminate the Canaanite people — from the elderly to newborns and fetuses. This is described throughout the book of Joshua.
* The near extermination of the entire tribe of Benjamin by the remaining 11 tribes, triggered by the serial rape and murder of a priest’s concubine by a few Benjamites. See Judges, chapter 20.
The first three of the above genocides have at least three factors in common:
* The Bible explains that God was primarily responsible.
* Many liberal Christians, liberal Jews, historians and biblical archaeologists believe that all three are religious myths — stories of great spiritual significance about events that never actually happened.
* Jewish and Christian conservatives generally believe in that the authors of the Bible were inspired by God and thus their writings are inerrant. They believe that the genocides happened exactly as described in the Bible.
In addition, the book of Revelation, interpreted literally, predicts that a massive genocide will occur at some time in our future, in association with the war of Armageddon and the end of the world as we know it (TEOTWAWKI). If it were to happen in the near future, on the order of two billion people will die.
Could it be that the genocidal victor can only explain away his own horrors as inspired by God, lest the eternal curse of guilt overcome him and his descendants?
You have got to be kidding. Talk about a one-sided post! Have you read any of the comments Hamas or Hezbollah or indeed any average Palestinian, Egyptian, Jordanian, or other Arab issues daily about Israelis and Jews? You certainly have never posted any. There’s more than enough hate on both sides, though I think a fair minded observer would say there are more Israelis and Jews willing to give the Palestinians a fair or at least fairer shake than the other way around. But to single out these Yahoos, and not pay even lip service to the kind of intense venom one hears from the other side, really is an eyebrow-raiser.
munitions being used, in contravention of numerous international agreements, on schools, hospitals, civilian quarters, and UN buildings?
Is this a problem, or is Israel just burning out a cancer with the best weapon possible?
Being horrified by these comments does not mean that any of us aren’t and wouldn’t be horrified by similar comments made by Palestinians or Arabs. And I’d be willing to bet that most Americans of Middle Eastern heritage wouldn’t feel free to say these things about Israelis on camera in the US. They’d fear for their lives.
Most of them would not want to. Most of them do not have such ugly souls as that.
You may be correct about the hatred expressed by some people on both sides of this conflict.
The problem I have today is that Israel is implementing that hatred in the form of complete disregard for the lives of the innocent children and adults as it decimates Gaza with the latest American weapons technology. The responders in this video are responding to actual bloody one-sided warfare, its results in the form of dead Palestinians, and apparently finding some satisfaction in it.
It’s appalling.
I don’t claim to be the spokesperson for BooTrib, but…
In the first place, BooTrib, and most blogs, are not built around giving two sides equal time. This should not come as a shock. When Steven D posts about a Taser shooting, do you complain about the post not showing the pro-cop side of the story?
This blog does what most political blogs do, it advocates. Now, in your mind, this post is “pro-Palestinian,” and it should have an equal portion which is “pro-Israel.”
In my mind, a lot of “fair minded observers,” it is neither pro-Israel, nor pro-Palestinian, but pro-PEACE. And if I wanted equal time for hate, violence, and war, I, and most of us here, would go some place else.
The Fox “fair and balanced” disease has spread widely and infected deeply.
I’m sure you spend an equal amount of time hectoring “pro-Israeli” sites for their depiction of Palestinians as barbaric animals. No?
We have plenty of images and media attention on the “savagery” of the Palestianian. If anything, in America, we get too much demonization of Palestinians. You clearly are more comfortable with a Israeli-centered media that places the blame on Palestinians as you probably make all sorts of excuses why it’s noble for Israel to kill innocents.
If you’re looking for balance it seems it’s people like Steven that are providing it. We see and hear plenty about how evil and savage Palestinians are. Maybe it’s time to look at American and Israeli actions like the rest of the world does–through a more critical lens.
Knowledge is the one true good, and ignorance the one true evil.
The Jews better be careful what they wish for, specifically the arrival of their Messiah. He might well go to Gaza to help the most unfortunate victims in the area; the Palestinians. I wonder what the so called people of God would do then. Arrest Him lock Him up, torture Him, kill Him. Could be like deja vu all over again.
These extremists do not represent The Jews. And I say that with some confidence, as a Jew.
BTW, not even the Israelis represent the Jews, if that hasn’t become quite clear.
I agree. There’s an awful lot of antiIsrael press over the Gaza invasion and its consequences coming out of left wing Jewish peace activist organizations in both Israel and the US, and Europe as well.
I agree. There’s an awful lot of antiIsrael press over the Gaza invasion and its consequences coming out of left wing Jewish peace activist organizations in both Israel and the US, and Europe as well.
A lot of truth to that.
There are a number of Jews in my social environment who are deeply concerned over the extreme brutality of this incursion (maybe because I am able to bring some balance to what they hear/see is going on there – since most of them seem to trust that the traditional media is giving a balanced account).
I agree completely, boran. Even the Jews I have known who were blindly pro-Israel would never have said the kinds of things these people said.
horrifying sentiments, yes, but why should anyone be surprised?
this is not some random sample. this is a pro-israel rally. on a cold day in new york. as they say in statistics, the population self-selects for only those willing to brave the weather to make their views known, on a topic that’s long been beaten to death … ie, extremists.
so no, this does not represent the views of all new yorkers or all american jews. not all new yorkers nor all american jews showed up. this is a very specific distillation of individuals and not a particularly savory one.
That’s a very good point about how these protesters do not represent the average Israel supporter. But we also see this exact dynamic in the portrayal of Palestinians in our media. We only see the burning flags and the angry Arab “street”. In fact, it is much more common to see the Palestinians portrayed via its extremists.
But you’re right. There are plenty of Jews and Israelis and Israel boosters that do not share in the genocidal fantasies that these protesters espouse.
Too bad the governments of Israel and the United States are about the only entities that takes these people seriously.
depicting the palestinians, and many others in the ME for that matter, is a necessary construct in order to justify the harsh treatment that is, and has been inflicted upon them.
from: Gaza: A pawn in the new ‘great game’
By Alastair Crooke
the u.s. msm is only too happy to oblige and assist them in the endeavour.
depicting the palestinians, and many others in the ME, in that manner…ie: as extremists…
preview is my friend
You equate burning flags with what is in that video?
Gee, that’s funny, but in all the uncountable pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel-action protests, marches, rallies, etc. that I have taken part in in my life I have never EVER, NOT ONCE heard anything that even remotely approaches what is in that video, not even spoken quietly within a a small group. NOT ONCE.
I will go even farther. In all my life living in the Arab world, living with Arabs, associating with Arabs, working with Arabs, or in my regular visits to Arab countries I have never EVER, NOT ONCE heard anything that even remotely approaches what is in that video. NOT ONCE.
i doubt that you hang out with the types of people who would say such things.
but i’d be willing to bet that if i went to a pro-palestinian rally, i could get footage of people who would say such things. especially if attending that rally asked a hardship that would weed out those less fervent about the cause — such as enduring inclement weather or traveling a distance.
not only is this a video of a crowd of self-selected extremists, it’s a edited montage of the most absurd statements.
i presume you’ve seen other videos max has made of other types of extremists, usually of the conservative and christian persuasion. max looks for and does a good job of assembling the most outrageous statements.
you could probably make generalizations about the attendees of events like these, but you couldn’t draw any conclusions about people who did not attend, which was the point of my original comment.
“i doubt that you hang out with the types of people who would say such things.“
I hang out with the types of people who attend pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel-action protests, marches, and rallies both in the United States and in other countries. I have never heard those types of things from anyone at any of those events ever. The worst things I have heard have come from a handful of American anti-Semites who attach themselves to Arab causes in the mistaken belief that they will be welcomed by fellow Jew-haters. They are generally shunned or at best politely ignored. And I have never heard even them saying the kinds of things I have heard from Israel supporters such as the ones in that video.
“but i’d be willing to bet that if i went to a pro-palestinian rally, i could get footage of people who would say such things. especially if attending that rally asked a hardship that would weed out those less fervent about the cause — such as enduring inclement weather or traveling a distance.“
It’s a bet. Let me know where you live, and I will let you know the time and place of the next rally in your area. Be sure to take your video camera, and make sure the audio works. And what would you like to bet? After all, we have to make it real.
“not only is this a video of a crowd of self-selected extremists, it’s a edited montage of the most absurd statements.“
I agree it is a crowd of self-selected extremists. I cannot comment on the editing criteria because I have no basis for that.
“i presume you’ve seen other videos max has made of other types of extremists, usually of the conservative and christian persuasion. max looks for and does a good job of assembling the most outrageous statements.“
No, I haven’t. I am not entertained or enlightened by such things, therefore I do not waste time on them.
“you could probably make generalizations about the attendees of events like these, but you couldn’t draw any conclusions about people who did not attend, which was the point of my original comment.“
I have not drawn any conclusions about the people who did not attend, and if you had read my other comments you would know what my general point of view was.
You, unfortunately, drew utterly unfounded conclusions based on this video about the people who attend pro-Palestinian rallies. As far as I can tell you have never attended one. I have attended literally hundreds of pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel events in my life, I do hang out very much with the kinds of people who attend them, and I challenge you to try to find footage of people at a Palestinian rally making the kinds of murderous, genocidal statements we can hear in that video.
you’ve just made my point — that is, if you’re still talking about people who attend hot-topic rallies.
take a breath. reread my comments. you are reading too much from them. i’m talking about people who attend political rallies in adverse conditions. my conclusion: these events tend to draw more extremists than usual. no more. no less.
but i’ll add that i’ve never been to a political rally that didn’t attract hate speech, since, as you seem to admit, there are those who will show up and add their unwelcome messages, whoever they are. they do not become invisible because you discount them.
personally, i’ve never heard a jew utter the things captured by max, but just because i’ve never heard them with my own ears doesn’t mean they’re not said. i don’t hang out with those people, and it’s obvious that neither do you. we self-select the hate-mongers out of our lives. but they’re not hard to find, especially on a cold day in a big city, as max demonstrates.
as for your bet, i’m forced to decline. i have a chronic back condition that renders me an invalid for months at a time. i am in bed as i type this, where i’ve been for the last month and where i expect to be for probably another two. it’s been over two years since my last political rally. at that rally it was right-wing counter-protesters supplying the hate speech. but i don’t know when my next rally will be. so you win by default. congratulations.
I am very, very sorry about your back problems. I cannot even imagine how it must be living with a condition like that.
I don’t think I made myself really clear, so let me sum up my points:
I did not make it clear that I am not saying there is never ever any ugly, racist, murderous talk at an pro-Palestinian rally at any time. However, the fact that I have never heard the likes of what is on that tape at any Arab event ever suggests that it is far more rare than some people would like to believe.
i appreciate your sentiments regarding my back problem. it doesn’t really bother me that much any more. i’ve become a stoic at this point and this is just another inconvenient episode. it will end eventually.
i don’t think we are necessarily in disagreement here. rather, we seem to have been arguing at cross purposes. i claim that certain conditions tend to bring out more extremists (or at least increase their proportion). you claim, as far as i understand, that extremists, at least among certain groups, are more rare. these two claims are not mutually exclusive.
They sound like Bush dead-enders, with no concept of the impact of war, loss of livelihood, dismemberment—just cheerleading go, go, team! Waterboard the other ones.