Add one more difference to the lifestyles of Americans versus Europeans, brought to you by our qwnership society. In Europe people retire at 65 thanks to decent pensions. In the America of the 21st Century, where we privatized retirement savings, they just keep on working, because when the market crashed, all their retirement nest eggs got broken:
In other parts of the developed world, people are retiring as planned, because of relatively flush state and corporate pensions that await them. But here in the United States, financial security in old age rests increasingly on private savings, which have taken a beating in the last year. Prospective retirees are clinging to their jobs despite some cherished life plans.
As a result, companies are not only reluctant to create new jobs, but have fewer job openings to fill from attrition. For the 14 million Americans looking for work — a number expected to rise in Friday’s jobs report for August — this lack of turnover has made a tough job market even tougher. […]
The diverted life plans [people in their 60’s] are an unintended economic consequence of the nation’s sprawling 401(k) plans. These private retirement savings vehicles, designed 30 years ago as a supplement to traditional corporate pensions, have somewhat haphazardly replaced the old system, like an innocuous weed that somehow overgrew the garden.
As is apparent in this downturn, the economic effects of such an ad hoc system can be perverse. In boom times, when companies need more workers, the most experienced employees may decide to retire, taking comfort in their bloated 401(k)s, whose values typically fluctuate with the financial markets.
Today, the reverse is happening in the first deep recession since the new accounts became so pervasive. A Pew Research survey scheduled for Thursday release found that nearly four in 10 workers over age 62 say they have delayed their retirement because of the recession.
So, to sum up, our society makes you work harder, longer and pay more for health care, and then when it comes time to retire, if the market is down so are the savings you need to live on in your golden years. Which means you keep working at your old job, or you are forced to look for a new one. But hey, greatest country on earth right? Unless your a young person looking for a job, or an old one trying to hang on to one well into your 70’s. As the Times’ report makes clear, our system of privatized retirement savings creates perverse incentives, and actually acts as an economic destabilizer. In good times your best employees leave early, and in bad times they crowd out younger workers desperate for a new job to begin paying off their crushing debt load from financing their education:
New numbers from the U.S. Education Department show that federal student-loan disbursements—the total amount borrowed by students and received by schools—in the 2008-09 academic year grew about 25% over the previous year, to $75.1 billion. The amount of money students borrow has long been on the rise. But last year far surpassed past increases, which ranged from as low as 1.7% in the 1998-99 school year to almost 17% in 1994-95, according to figures used in President Barack Obama’s proposed 2010 budget. […]
The new numbers highlight how debt has become commonplace in paying for higher education. Today, two-thirds of college students borrow to pay for college, and their average debt load is $23,186 by the time they graduate, according to an analysis of the government’s National Postsecondary Student Aid Study, conducted by financial-aid expert Mark Kantrowitz. Only a dozen years earlier, according to the study, 58% of students borrowed to pay for college, and the average amount borrowed was $13,172.
Great news if you are in the business of lending money to parents and their students to finance college costs. Bad news if you want graduates to use the money they make from their first real jobs to help the economy grow. Needless to say, those socialistic Euros typically treat their college student debtors far more leniently than we do ours. We start gouging our kids from day one with higher tuition costs and demands for loan repayment ASAP regardless of whether someone actually has a job that can service the debt.But that’s our system right now. Dog eat dog, and may the best (and worst) senior executives and Wall Street Bankers retire early in luxury thanks to their golden parachutes and super-sized bonuses, while the rest of us work ever harder, die earlier and suffer more so that they can live the good life. Does that sound like a fair system to you? (Rhetorical question, people).
In France only 4% of people ages 65-69 are still working. In the land of freedom, its one third of all people in that age group. And a recent PEW study found that nearly 4 in 10 American workers age 62 or older have delayed their decision to retire (all per the NY Times article I initially linked). That’s an amazing statistic. It tells me that we have something seriously wrong with the way our economy is structured. And I’m not the only one:
The recent retirement losses have prompted policy makers to discuss whether Americans need a stronger social safety net, not just in health care and unemployment benefits, but in retirement as well.
Economists say there are advantages to reducing the financial risk for individuals. Pooling investments, in some cases, allows workers to switch jobs more easily and helps lower fees associated with investment decisions, for example.
Hey, maybe we need more socialism, not less, people. Look at this:
… Europe isn’t just the land of “socialized” medicine. It is also the land of “socialized” retirement plans, and like other automatic stabilizers, pensions help cushion the blow of an economic crisis.
Retirement income typically comes from a combination of three buckets: state pensions, corporate pensions and individual arrangements. In many other industrialized countries, that first bucket — state pensions — supports a large amount of retirees’ income.
The typical American receives just 45 percent of his preretirement wage through Social Security, according to the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development. By contrast, a worker in Denmark, which has one of the most comprehensive and generous retirement arrangements in the world, can retire with a state pension that is 91 percent of his salary.
Old people with money retire, making way for new workers. They also have more to spend in retirement, helping to keep their economies more stable, more resilient. More able to weather a downturn in the economic climate brought on by (ahem) greedy and stupid American Wall Street Investment Bankers and the bubbles they created in tech stocks, real estate and the derivatives market.
I know, it all makes too much sense. Cheaper health care costs. More money for retirees. A chamce for young people to better afford college and get on their feet. A more stable economy. Well, it makes sense for anyone who isn’t in the top 1% of the income brackets her in the US of A. Which is why we so much opposition to the evils of “socialism.” You know, right now, I would trade some of that evil for our current “righteous ultra individualistic unfettered capitalism ” where the next serious illness or family crisis or job loss could wipe out what little savings you and I have and send us directly to bankruptcy, do not pass go, do not collect a single red dime. Those evil socialists in “Old Europe” keep looking better and better.
Comparing the US to those cute little European countries where the people all share the same lineage is a purely academic exercise.
huh?
What, you really don’t recognize a difference between the United States and any individual European Country? Come on.
i do!
in america, we work harder and longer with no guarantee of retirement or health care, and in europe the opposite applies.
pretty simple, really.
ps: my ex’s dad retired at 55. they live in canada.
You haven’t been to Europe recently, have you?
For a number of years now most European countries have been taking in more immigrants per capita than the US. This has led to any number of problems (e.g., the riots in suburban Paris), but their safety nets are still far more intact than those of the US. (That’s one of the reasons Europe is now a preferred destination for immigrants.) The only way in which European countries are notably more homogenous than the US now is economic – i.e., we have far more poverty here. Which is part of Steven’s point.
Yeah, we pay less taxes and get worse government.
We have higher “productivity.” They have a higher quality of life.
And most of us “Americans” are all from Europe anyway, a few generations ago.
Seriously. What’s your point?
The point is that we have a higher quality of life than any other large diverse country.
Comments about European countries being diverse are simply misguided. Can any of you read population statistics?
Alright, you obviously can’t figure this out on your own. The only European countries ranked higher than the US in quality of life have populations less than 10,000,000 and are largely homogeneous societies.
As an aside, France, which the brilliant Steven D specifically compared us to, actually has a lower quality of life ranking, so I’m not sure what point he’s trying to make.
The United States is incredibly big, incredibly diverse and incredibly dynamic. Whatever it is that you social engineers are trying to accomplish, it’s unlikely that European style policy will apply.
You have, apparently, never lived in any part of the EU if you think their populations are uniformly “homogeneous.”
And, you have confused “standard of living,” i.e., big houses, cars, refrigerators, etc., with “quality of life.” You should try living someplace where people routinely take two hours for lunch(!) before describing the quality of their lives as “poor.”
Take a look at any set of population statistics and get back to me. The US is far and away the most diverse large country. It’s pretty obvious when you look at facts.
And I was using the Economists’ quality of life study that looks at the following attributes:
Health, Family life, Community life, Material well being, Political stability and security, Climate and geography, Job security: Unemployment rate, Political freedom and Gender equality.
All better in West Europe. Don’t rely on the phony unemployment rates the US Government gives out. They discard half of the unemployed. Unemployment in France just grew to 9.5%. U.S. is “officially” at 9.4%, but actually more like 16%. To get the 9.4, they had to pretend that 800,000 unemployed suddenly decided they really don’t want a job after all.
What have you been reading? WSJ?
Yeah, and I’ve read the articles about youth riots because of no job opportunities due to a static socialist economy. I’ve read about the Muslim immigrants who are discriminated against; often violently. I’ve also read about the elderly who perished due to warm weather and vacationing doctors. Of course these stories were also reported in the New York Times. Don’t you remember them?
The riots were against loss of job security, not against socialism. They rioted because socialism was being taken away. Muslims aren’t discriminated against here? You haven’t read about old people freezing in the cold here? Happens every Winter here in Chicago. Oh,yeah, and the old people who died in Texas from heat when they lost electricity but were afraid to open their windows in Law and Order paradise.
I don’t read the New York Times. I read the Chicago Tribune. Their editorials are biased (as editorials should be), but their news stories are not, discounting the stories picked up from the AP.
Well, yes, their news stories are biased too. Read FAIR to see that on a regular basis. But I agree on your point here, sans that!
At least not overtly. True, they love tweaking Mayor Daley’s nose, but he often deserves it. And for the zoo in the Cook County government, even (elected) Democrats are getting sick of it.
The riots were due to no available jobs because the job market is not dynamic. It’s not dynamic because of union and government policy that doesn’t allow for firing/hiring.
You can’t give someone a job for life without taking away opportunity from someone who is willing to work hard, innovate and try to make something out of their career.
I just love our dynamic job market.
http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-emp.gif
Over the long term no other large country has come close.
Just noticed where the link to the French Unemployment rate came from. Couldn’t resist pointing it out. It’s to that well known Liberal Rag: http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090903-709665.html
You may want to look a little deeper Mr. Voice.
The problem was that the unemployment rate among young job seekers in the cities was actually 40%. FORTY.
That’s where riots come from, my friend. 40% unemployment among youth in crowded cities. This was, by the way, a direct result of the institutionalization of older people’s jobs, also known as Job Security.
Here’s an interesting article from a Bernard Salanié. I can’t vouch for him, but he is a professor of economics at Columbia and Ecole Polytechnique:
http://riotsfrance.ssrc.org/Salanie/
Where were you when unemployment among young black men in America was 40%?
I’m right here. It’s greater than that now.
Yeah, baby! Fire Grandpa!
As an aside, when you make statements like that about France or any country you’re supposed to back up statements with a links to support your ‘facts’.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-Life_Index
what’s your point? that the u.s. was 13th 4 years ago, and has now fallen?
or that we rank 37th in healthcare, or is it 42nd place in life expectancy that’s got you excited?
So. According to your offered source, Spain is ranked higher in QOL than the USA. Spain! For gawd’s sake! And you think this is because Spain is a little country and its people are “homogeneous.” (Just what DO you mean by that word?) I guess you’ve never heard of the Basque Separatists? Aren’t aware of the divisions between the Moorish and Spanish cultures? Don’t realize the size of the Romany, Arab or Jewish populations there?
And how about Australia outranking the USA? That’s a pretty big, diverse country… It looks to me like your link doesn’t support your conclusions.
Spain definitely has a better climate than the US. In g-world, that’s because it’s so capitalist that the Invisible Hand sends it gentle breezes. And saves the hot air for g’s infinite supply.
Lemme tell ya, it gets bitterly cold up in those Spanish mountains; the whole country isn’t a balmy coastline. I’m not sure how the Economist equalized it into having a “better” climate than, for instance, New Zealand. But, since the whole point of their ranking was good places to vacation and/or retire, they probably didn’t factor in areas of the country that don’t have beach-front condos. 😉
Australia? Diverse? Are you on crack? Do any of you people do the slightest bit of research to facilitate your understanding of the world? Or do you simply recite dogma?
85.4% of Australia’s population is from the British Isles!!! The largest non-European population is Chinese at 3.37%!!!
Spain’s population is 87% Spanish. 2 million (out of 46.6 million) are Basque. That’s diverse? And it’s definitely not large.
Mention Brazil to me and I might start taking you seriously. But you have two strikes against you.
Anyway, Spain is definitely homogeneous. Look, you’ve all been taught to view the US as racist and evil. But the fact is that the US is the most diverse large country with no other country coming remotely close.
So you finally get to your point after all the coy innuendo: socialism (social justice) can’t work here because we have all these dark people. That’s the only kind of diversity you can see.
“Are you on crack?” That’s an insult. We’ve got a little rule here: Don’t be a prick. It’s pretty simple. Try to follow it.
I notice you don’t count the Aborginals in your Australian population count. Why is that? Don’t they count?
You think because the Jews, Arabs, and Gypsies who live in Spain all self-identify as “Spanish” that that makes them all the same?
You can put all the little strikes you want on your score card. Too bad I’m not playing your game. You think, “Spain is definitely homogeneous”? I’m going to ask you again, have you ever been there? If you haven’t seen the distintly difference racial types walking the streets there, don’t talk to me about whatever your reference books say on the matter.
I bet you even think the Brits don’t look down on the Welsh and the Scots. And, the Scots don’t sneer at the Irish. O no, you think the UK is just a sea of pasty white faces without internal divisions! Do your reference books tell you that they’re all British so that must mean they’re “homogeneous.”
It’s a figure of speech.
The aboriginals do count but are a very small percentage (2.2%) of the population so they don’t really add much to diversity.
The Jews, Arabs and Gypsies are not part of the 87% of Spaniards in Spain. Unless you have the ability to walk every street in Spain, it makes no sense to make an assessment of diversity via your tourist walks through city streets. That’s what demographic statistics are for.
Everybody is different, but the Brits, Welsh, Scots and Irish have a lot more in common with each other than with the Australian aboriginals; especially when they are developing a huge island that is thousands of miles from home. Just ask the native Australian (I happen to be friends with a few).
And when the British Islanders are at home (and thank you for making my point quite well), they have had a hard time taking care of each other, haven’t they?
And that, my friend, is the point. Largely homogeneous groups in smallish countries seem to have less problems creating welfare states. Throw in millions of people with different backgrounds, religions, and lifestyles and it becomes much more complicated to redistribute wealth because humans have a tendency to judge people. And they get serious about judgments when other people take their $$$.
Considering this societal reality, the US has done much better than other large and diverse countries. Instead of pining for socialism, maybe we should look at the root causes of our success.
Wikipedia is not a “source.” It’s a link to sources. Pick a link.
I just figured that you didn’t have a subscription to the economist:
http://www.economist.com/theworldin/displayStory.cfm?story_id=E1_PPSNQJV&d=2005
I do. And I recommend it highly.
Well, if you are referring to the Human Development Reports then you are simply wrong.
The original post was specifically about “quality of life.”
France still beats us.
booman, stop arguing with the dining room table.
France beats us? Maybe if you’re a middle aged Frenchman who’s job is secure for life. Ask the college grad or Muslim immigrant who is excluded from employment from a static, controlled job market.
And here is what that is a measure of:
Wow. That’s incredibly simplistic. I’ll go with the Economist on this one.
Of course you will. Since the majority of its parameters, like climate, have absolutely nothing to do with the economic system, and every measure relevant to economic effects refutes your claims.
Here are the Economist’s criteria — they’re relevant to “where to vacation or retire”, ot to economic anaysis:
# Health: Life expectancy at birth [relevant]
# Family life: Divorce rate [irrelevant]
# Community life: high rate of church attendance or trade-union membership [irrelevant and biased]
# Material well being: GDP per person [relevant within limits]
# Political stability and security [irrelevant]
# Climate and geography: Latitude [irrelevant]
# Job security: Unemployment rate [relevant]
# Political freedom [irrelevant]
# Gender equality [may be somewhat relevant]
All are relevant to the economic system. Climate and geography is the unique attribute it isn’t affected by the economic system but it certainly affects the economic system. The rest are highly integrated. The relationships are complex; you could say symbiotic.
Got to disagree with you here, Dave.
They are relevant. I haven’t seen any dictators in Germany or Italy since 1945. None in the UK since Oliver Cromwell. Spain and Portugal got rid of their dictators during my lifetime. Isn’t that a plus. And if stability means low political turnover, is that good? Government changes by elections are good.
Political freedom? Well you don’t have the freedom to be a Nazi or deny the holocaust, but that also is a good thing.
And don’t forget all the paid vacations! Don’t Europeans get something like six weeks off every year? When I lived in England, the whole dang countryside shut down for the Twelves Days of Christmas. Seriously. I had to go stock up on food and petrol because all the grocery stores and all but one of the gas stations were closed. (Perhaps London and the bigger cities functioned differently… I avoided the metropolitan areas so I dunno.) Some people tripped off to warmer climes but most devoted the time to being with their families and friends. How very unAmerican!
They got all these goodies thru “worker solidarity” which is a little different from the way we think of “socialism” as a top-down form of government. If the politicians don’t do what the workers like, they shut the economy down until they get what they want! The Ruling Class in America has been very successful at dividing and conquering workers by race, religion and blue/white collar class distinctions.
In France, for example, if, say, the farmers are unhappy, then bus drivers, teachers — everyone — will walk off their jobs and students will take to the streets setting things on fire until the government capitulates. Europeans seems to understand better than we do that the real power in a country belongs to the people, not the owners. We’re such confused, pathetic wage-slaves…
Sounds like you’re just unhappy with your job. Buck up camper. Put your nose to the grindstone and things will work out fine.
Actually, I love my “job.” My husband and I have an organic mini-farm. Depending on where you live you might even get some of my produce, jams and preserves thru your CSA.
In my spare time, I create scale miniature houses and art projects, photograph them and instruct others on how to make their own little masterpieces. No shit! I get paid to create art projects for a craft catalog.
Don’t introduce yourself in the Pond by assuming anything about anyone here. We’re a bunch of radical individualists who manage to maintain civil discourse by being courteous and respectful of each other.
Like — in case you’re presuming from what I’ve told you about myself that I’m some kind of hippie-back-to-the-earth, arty-flaky type — I used to manage a division for a Fortune 500 corporation and I can shoot a pistol with deadly precison. I’m over sixty years old so unless you’re my elder, you don’t get to tell me to “Buck up” and, let me assure, things do NOT always “work out fine.”
If you love your job so much why are you complaining about vacation policy and lamenting a lack of worker solidarity? Something is missing. What is it?
I don’t care to presume anything about you. Simply pointing out that the “grass is greener” arguments are shaky and often built on bad info.
Oh, and that workers solidarity thing is mostly a scam.
My fault. You weren’t complaining about vacation time. I read that too quickly (or just not well).
Anyway, I still think that worker solidarity thing is a scam. It’s about as group think as it gets; just as bad as line dancing.
Steven gave well-documented reasons for his opinions. So far you’ve wasted 3 posts generating hot air based on nothing but teabagger talking points. Too bad this site doesn’t have audio so you could scream for us — that would make your point where fact and logic can’t.
This was supposed to reply to g’s rant above.
It’s all there. Sorry to bust up the circle jerk.
ho hum.
when it doubt, revert to “everyone’s against me”.
as a member of this site for the past 3 years, the suggestion that there’s some group mind here is laughable on its face.
I’m the walking example of that as is SFHAwkguy.
I said nothing of the sort.
But there is most certainly a tendency towards group mind. Afterall sjtc pines for:
“In France, for example, if, say, the farmers are unhappy, then bus drivers, teachers — everyone — will walk off their jobs and students will take to the streets setting things on fire until the government capitulates.”
THAT’S GOOD! Got your attention? Here the farmers just get thrown off their land that some agribusiness buys for a song from the bank that foreclosed.
Hey, I’m not for government supported agri-biz. Totally against it actually.
Personally, I support local farms (through a community sponsored agriculture program) and will always vote against measures to strengthen large scale agri-biz through legislation.
Please look into supporting your local CSA.
Brendan and I are not the same person. My POV is mine and should not be used as tho it is his or extended to reflect on every commenter here. If you need to comment about something I have written, you should do so directly to me so that I can reply directly. Otherwise, it feels like you’re talking behind my back…
You seem to be ok with the firefighters speaking for the farmers or some such bullshit. But now you’re asserting individuality? What’s with that?
I don’t the see the conflict that you apparently do. Why shouldn’t firefighters support farmers and vice versa? They don’t have to merge with the Borg to see that their interests are shared.
Workers groups are the Borg too.
hahaha, there you go again g.
of course you didn’t say it in those specific words.
But that’s what you mean when you talk about an ongoing circle jerk here at BMT.
Please, do you think I became aware of internet traditions yesterday?
Wow, leave for a bit and a food fight breaks out. Ah, the fun I missed, lol.