If a pollster called me up and asked if I were proud to be an American I suppose that I would say ‘yes.’ But I don’t think I’d really know what I meant by that, or what the pollster thought I meant by it. It’s just a weird question. I’d be more comfortable answering a question about whether I was happy or grateful to be an American. That would be a much easier question to answer in the unequivocal affirmative. I feel very fortunate to have been born and raised in this country and I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. I’m just not sure that I feel much pride about it.
It’s not that I’m incapable of feeling a sense of pride in my country. We’re really a very accomplished people with a very can-do spirit. I love our pluralism. I love our lack of aristocracy and total lack of tribalism. I love our self-confidence. I love our secularism. These things set us apart from the Europe from which we sprang, and they’re excellent traits that I believe in and I am somewhat proud that our country spread these ideas around the world to people (some of whom learned the lessons better than we did).
But being born here was just a piece of luck. I can’t say I am proud to have been lucky. And I can’t say that this country hasn’t done many things of which I am ashamed. So, what does it mean to say that you are proud to be an American? That you love your country? I do. But shouldn’t it mean something more that that?
Maybe sporting events aren’t the best measure of pride in your country. I’d prefer to look at something like NASA.
But, it’s been interesting to see how people respond to the World Cup in terms of who they decide to root for.
Last weekend I watched the U.S. play Ghana with a Norwegian and his two American children. Of course, the children’s mother was, I believe, Ethiopian. So, they had an African connection and chose to root for the Ghana. So did their father, who has spent a lot of time living in America.
Prior to that, one of my own stepchildren decided to root for England over America because ‘America sucks.’ He’s not much of a soccer fan, so these was more of a political than a sports assessment.
Then tonight I spent some time with a German who was obviously pretty geeked about his national team crushing Argentina 4-0. He was also, quite understandably, completely ambivalent about our July 4th celebration, despite living and working here.
It would never occur to me to root against my own country in any endeavor. And it’s hard for me to envision rooting against my adopted country either.
I understand ethnic pride. I root for England, Italy, and Germany because that’s my ethnic background. But I don’t root for them over the United States.
I wonder about how spoiled we are that we that some of us feel the luxury to root against ourselves because ‘we suck’ or because we only live here, or because its hip to be contrary.
I don’t know. In the bigger picture, none of it matters. Or does it? How many Ghanans rooted against their own team? And where does the line go between sport and things that actually matter?
It would never occur to me to root against my own country in any endeavor. And it’s hard for me to envision rooting against my adopted country either.
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I wonder about how spoiled we are that we that some of us feel the luxury to root against ourselves because ‘we suck’ or because we only live here, or because its hip to be contrary.
I guess it is a matter of perspective. The kids you refer to above are not only US citizens, but have dual nationality. As my daughter said at the age of around 2 (before much math skills had settles in): “I’m half Norwegian, half American and half African.” They’ve both spent a lot of time in other countries – mostly Europe, but also Ethiopia.
More importantly, they both have been/are students at the UN International School in NY with friends from a multitude of countries – some of which the US government bomb to smithereens on a regular basis, others more occasionally, or through proxies. Neither of them are, quite understandably, particularly impressed by American exceptionalism.
It is therefore not such a stretch to root for other countries in sports, in this case because of the African connection. On other occasions – the recent winter olympics come to mind – they were strong supporters of the US team – that is, of course, unless Norwegians were involved in an event…
Yeah, they are people of the world in a greater sense than most people can claim, and so they have a wider perspective when it comes to something as simple as picking a team to cheer for. That’s totally understandable.
On the other hand, there’s something unique about America that allows this kind of ambivalence. I simply can’t imagine that too many people living in Ghana, either for work, school, or because they were born there, rooting against the Ghana football team. Now, part of that is because Ghana doesn’t bomb people. But part of it is because they don’t feel like they have the luxury in some sense to choose someone else.
Thinking more about my own kids than yours, it’s strange to just root against America because ‘we suck.’ This is our country. Whether we suck or not, we ought to be hoping for the best.
I don’t like mindless nationalism or the constant claims of ‘we’re number one.’ But there’s a difference between that and actually rooting for our failure.
On the other hand, there’s something unique about America that allows this kind of ambivalence.
That is probably true; a large chunk of the population is no more than a generation or two away from arrival.
I think it’s partly a function of the Nation of Immigrants thing. It’s seen as cool to be “in touch” with one’s heritage.
It’s sort of like how anybody more than one eighty-sixth Irish has to root for Notre Dame unless they actually attended a school with a real football team.
And let’s be honest: Soccer is still a second-rate sport in the eyes of many Americans, so they don’t care much. If it were a World Cup of American Football, I suspect everyone would root for the US, because it’d be America’s real sport, and we’d slaughter everybody else.
I think our World Cup team would be much better if soccer were the dominant sport here, but our super-athletes all go to football and basketball. It all contributes to an attitude of “Meh, fuck it, Go Germany!”
I think you’ve got the right take on it, Booman.
I’ve lived in a lot of countries and visited many more, and I imagine that if I had the audacity to ask a Dutchman or a Chinese or a Korean or a Mexican “Are you proud to be a __” he’d look at me kind of funny. Justifiably.
In other words, pride in ones’ birth country, or in ones’ adopted country, is a given. Why ask. And if you do ask it has some of that: ‘Have you stopped beating your wife’ quality. Why are you asking?
I always find questions like that irritatingly reductive.
The US is my home. It’s family. It’s by far the country I’m most familiar with (though I’ve lived elsewhere, have family elsewhere, and have a dual citizenship). For those reasons alone I feel a sense of loyalty and of possessiveness about wanting to see the USA prosper.
Am I “proud”? Of what? Of being born here? A matter of luck, as Booman noted. Of the people here? Many of them. Not all. Of the culture? Some aspects. Not all. The government? Rarely. It’s more often a source of acute embarrassment, resentment of a global bully, and shame in the extent to which I am complicit in its actions. The ideals on which it was supposedly founded? Absolutely, though neither the US nor any other country has ever come very close to achieving them.
In some ways – material wealth, the lack of disease, the relative lack of religious intolerance – this country is incredibly blessed. In some ways – the amount of that wealth poured into militarism (and the glorification thereof), the history of racism and conquest that has shaped our culture, the recent trend toward celebrating gross ignorance as a virtue – we are cursed. Most countries similarly have their strengths and weaknesses. My home is this one, which is why I want the best for it. It’s family, which implies unconditional love. But proud? Sometimes. It depends. Bizarre question.
Well said. Pride in what?
While some of us aren’t overly fond of our government’s policies, that’s something we share with others in otger countries. They’re in the same boat. The people are better than their governments. We can empathize with others on that.
In every country we’re proud of our family, our locale, the natural features of the local landscape (purple mountains’ majesties, etc.) and the very idea that we are ____.
The people, and the things they have accomplished. Never sell the people short. Don’t blame the people for the government’s shortcomings.
That’s where the pride comes in.
I don’t like July 4th because American nationalism is very special in the world. Not that other countries don’t experience nationalism, or exhibit it, but there’s something about American nationalism in particular that irks me. Maybe it’s our constant banter about being the best at everything, when it’s far from it; or the American Dream, which as George Carlin always said, it’s called the American Dream ’cause you have to be asleep to believe it. That’s putting aside the fact that I hate nationalism (and most patriotism) to begin with.
We celebrate our triumphs at the expense of ignoring the woes of others. My love for humanity does not stop at the border, and American patriotism seldom takes the form of remembering the glorious things we have wrought for the world’s benefit, only the glorious things we have wrought for our own benefit. And who is we, in any case? Our urban poor, the hundreds of homeless people with whom I interact on a daily basis at work, many of them veterans of our dirty wars, are they reaping the benefits of this great society of which we so self-indulgently pride ourselves on being a part? Our despised illegal immigrants, who do the work of slaves with almost nothing in the way of recompense so that we can enjoy our bloated standards of living while reviling the very people who make them possible? The millions upon millions in this nation who don’t have access to even basic health care?
That is vanity, not pride in a high achievement. Any country can strive to make itself better, to inflate the quality of life of its citizens. That’s nothing exceptional. Something to be grateful for, yes, but that gratitude must go hand-in-hand with an appreciation of the arbitrariness of privilege and an awareness of the need to redress the imbalance between what you have and what the rest of the world has not. Until these things become the dominant themes of what America calls ‘patriotism’ I cannot take part with my whole heart.
American-style patriotism ultimately serves to illustrate and enhance the differences and disparities among the human family in terms of wealth, achievement, safety, happiness, privilege, education…ultimately, indeed, to celebrate them; this I cannot bear. Maybe it’s white guilt. If so, it’s welcome.
My thoughts tend to run in this general direction, although I wouldn’t put it quite as darkly as Seabe. I am an American, and proud of many of things we’ve achieved. But to take credit for all those great things – the Declaration of Independence, baseball, Barack Obama, whatever you want – I think we also have take responsibility for the genocide of native peoples, Jim Crow, George W. Bush, etc. too. All these things are part of who “we” are as a people, and are reflections of the light and dark in each one of us.
I think nationalism has had an important role to play in human development: think, for example, about the Irish, who were shit upon for hundreds of years, and then in the 19th century began to spin myth and a somewhat self-serving version of history into an idea of Ireland that they could be proud of. And now everyone wants to be Irish (at least on St. Paddy’s day). Certainly, there are differences between nations – just ask anyone from North Korea, or Somalia, or Turkmenistan. In a big way, folks who have the deepest pride in America are first-generation immigrants, because they know the difference in their own lives. Go to naturalization ceremony some time, and there’s no better way to get inspired about your country.
But in the end, I’m with I’m Seabe on feeling more fundamentally a member of humanity, rather than an American per se. In my deepest heart of hearts, my hope for the world is that some day we let the borders fade away and are just one world, one people, relatively equal and relatively happy together. That’s the “big picture” vision that keeps me going every day, even on the 4th of July.
This Independence Day we can be proud of our Declaration of Independence — the spirit of America. It is a unique document that states that the purpose of government is to protect our natural liberties. We don’t derive our rights from the government, we were born with them, and the government is supposed to protect them.
Bravo Zulu! I salute you, One of the finest posts I have seen in a long time. I read that and my heart and spirit soars….
I am now, and have been for over 20 years, a dual National. I make my home in French Polynesia, and having become a citizen of france and a resident of the Territory of French Polynesia. I find myself with more freedoms than were afforded me as a citizen of The United States and a resident of Oregon. I can trust the police/gendarmes here. I have seen the types of people in law enforcement and know several of them, and felt that they were not trustworthy or dependable. I am much more trusting of a situation here knowing that the person or persons I may run into in a problematic way is not going to tazer me or shoot me. I am sure that even if I were to have words with them they would still respect me as an elder and not arrest me for agressiveness or what ever made up thing that happens in the USA.
I also, believe that the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution with the Bill of Rights are the finest documents written to this date… Thanks for making my day!
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“Unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness …”
A recent diary on Kagan’s take of Supreme Justice made me rethink the present structure of Government. Congress is a dismal failure in democracy, the Presidency and all it’s underlying administration ministeries lack urgency and a sense of responsibility to those governed. The greatest failure of the venture called United States of America is the sense the gun provides safety to all citizens. At a very young age I got the opportunity in pursuit of happiness to choose a job and live in Western Europe. A primary reason was the inherent fear in US communities, families and friends for violence of crime, burglary and bodily harm. A second reason was that the American Dream was only attainable for those with a good education and plenty of luck to stay healthy. The lucky few with top jobs, nice homes in affluent neighborhoods do also have comprehensive health coverage.
In Europe these rights of its citizens are already realized and corporations have modified to accept regulations covering energy conservation, ecology and responsible use and disposal of chemicals. The US have achieved medieval practise and acceptance of torture, life imprisonment, death sentence and for those not imprisoned the Government has the right to execute an innocent citizen or poison entire communities causing injury and death because of inalienable rights of corporate power.
Why is the Rhine river cleaner than the Great Lakes?
Independence Day an happy occasion? No thanks, not for what the Government stands for today. An historic remembrance of achieving independence from king George? Sure. The United States from the Atlantic coast spreading across the plains to the Golden west coast of the Pacific Ocean? Eureka. US history is stained in too much bloodshed. Europe has learned the hard lessons of two devastating World Wars with 100 million deaths in the 20th century. Europe can look forward to a bright future in a tough economic environment based on solidarity with the less fortunate countries from the former Soviet bloc. A choice between Mars and Venus as far as I’m concerned.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Most Voice Pride in Being American
Does that mean that Obama is not a real American as far as they are concerned? What “America” are they proud of: the the white supremacist imperial America?
“Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel”?
Those who expound their love of country most are also those who would divide it most in pursuit of their own agenda?
Does having pride in one country mean you must also denigrate others – perhaps the most distinguishing characteristic of nationalists?
Love of country is no more unnatural than love of family or self, but must it always be at someone else’s expense?
Does it make sense to say you are proud of being a human being? Is not the first question you must ask: what kind of human being? What characteristics are you proud of?
Booman lists some of the “American” characteristics he is proud of:
Booman Tribune ~ Comments ~ Musings For Independence Day
But are these characteristics unique to America and do all Americans share them? Of course not, but are they nevertheless more characteristic of Americans than others? I think at the margins, perhaps yes, but perhaps more in terms of ruling ideology and dominant stereotype than in actual reality.
How many Americans could cope with the physical privations of living in poverty in a poor, conquered, or war torn country? Is it easier to live in a relatively rich rather than poor country?
When does pride become hubris?
I think the Republicans nurture a kind of ‘America is the Best’ patriotism that is distinct from simple patriotism and love of country. So the people who are most passionate about how much they love this country tend to be Republican. I don’t think the poll result has much to do with the present occupant of the White House. If it did, these Republican superpatriots would report some ambivalence.
In Florida, we were polled constantly, and what I thought was obviously not important. So I have a very low opinion of their value and meaning. The sketch artist made a good comment on that “research” by putting a dog in the picture.
Howard Zinn wrote an interesting piece on nationalism.
I think being American is a way to self-define and to find a shared kinship with others. We have a culture that affords us the freedom to be who we are, and a generous spirit, that’s what I’m proud of. We’re a young country still finding our way.
America is one step in the evolution of humanity.
Anyway, what other headline can you choose for the 4th of July?
I have not yet abandoned my inherent optimism in that I believe we still have the power to make life better for all. However, considering our very large part in the fouling of the Gulf Of Mexico, my feelings are leaning in the direction of shame right now.
I think loving your country means being proud when it does right and ashamed of what it does wrong while trying to change the latter. What most people take love of country to mean, though, is faux-patriotism. “My Country is Always Right”-type crap.
I agree that we’re a very accomplished. And I think Americans have a certain idealism that is a great strength.
But it’s also a great weakness. It means our dumb voters can be convinced that we’re off trying to make life better for Iraqis when what we’re really doing is horrible, evil shit in service to the wealthy.
Idealism is good, but you need a little cynicism to balance it out, and I think we’re sorely lacking in that quite often.
Would I ever want to live elsewhere? I’ve only ever lived outside of America once, for about three months in England. Between the two, I think I’d take the US. Nothing against England. Wonderful country, wonderful people. And they do a lot of things a helluva lot better than we do (health care, transport and beer leap to mind). It’s a much more walkable country (I never had a car, and I loved that). If you’re a lover of history, the US really just can’t hang. Think I preferred London to New York, too.
Bring the NFL and college football over there and I might be sold. There’s much to like about it.
But it’s also expensive compared to much of America. Incomes are generally lower. Housing costs are generally higher. Even adjusting for the health care difference, it costs a fair bit more for the same living in the UK.
But I wouldn’t pass up the opportunity to spend time elsewhere. Paris and Amsterdam look appealing. Maybe some day some place will change my mind.
The faux-patriotism annoys me, mostly because none of those idiots have ever spent any time outside the US, and even when they see the weaknesses in our country, they inevitably state that we’re still better than elsewhere, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I think those of us who have recognize that there are strengths and weaknesses to each, and it’s all a matter of how it balances out to you.
…adding: Plus, America doesn’t charge $12 for a pack of fucking cigarettes.
Goddamned communist Brits.
😉
New York City is getting close to $12 bucks. I think it was $9 and they just announced another increase.
That’s New York, though. I live in Virginia. Plus, it may be quite a bit higher in the UK now, as this was three years ago. Think I paid $6.50 for a pack in Newark Airport on a flight home at the time.
I’d love my country a lot more if it weren’t being mismanaged by a class of people who seem to find ways to do pretty much the exact opposite of what needs to be done to make life here worth living. So, yeah, other than the fact that we’re headed for ruination and catastrophe, it’s a great place to raise a family.