Update [2010-8-17 17:22:55 by Steven D]: Changed title because the proposed building is not a mosque. Mea culpa. It also isn’t located at the 9/11 site.
“The First Amendment protects freedom of religion,” reads a statement from Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s office (D-Nev.). “Senator Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built someplace else. If the Republicans are being sincere, they would help us pass this long overdue bill to help the first responders whose health and livelihoods have been devastated because of their bravery on 911, rather than continuing to block this much-needed legislation.”
Why is this an issue to anyone in Las Vegas or Reno or Tahoe? And no, all you Real Americans (you know the ones who fly the Confederate Flag and bring signs with nooses to tea party rallies) blaming every Muslim on Earth for 9/11 doesn’t make sense. You never cared squat about NYC until the the day the two towers were hit, and I doubt that for most of you any Muslim has done you any harm. Certainly not to the same extent your taxpayer dollars have done to fund the deaths of individuals in Muslim families in Iraq and Afghanistan.
This entire controversy is one of those continuing bizarro world episodes we’ve found ourselves in ever since Clinton was elected in 1992, and the insanity just keeps getting stranger and more absurd.
Meanwhile, a brief flashback to what the President said about Muslims in America and the world:
I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It’s practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah.
That’s right. An American president dared to call Muslims peaceful and our friends! President George W. Bush in his address to Congress after the attacks on September 11, 2001.
Think about that all you Real Americans before you condemn the building of a mosque in a city in which you do not live and whose residents you often openly disparage. Even Bush didn’t go where you want to go: asking the Government to interfere with “private property rights” and the “freedom of religion.”
I’m guessing someone asked Reid to comment. Duh. I do give him credit for hitting the hypocrisy of the GOBP for claiming the 9/11 site ( I HATE the term “Ground Zero”) is sacred ground, yet denying funding to the first responders who got sick trying to deal with the tragedy.
He’s better than Angle, of course, but I am not motivated to send money to his campaign. This is symptomatic of why we progressives aren’t thrilled with our party’s performance the past 2 years.
It is not difficult to be appalled at the GOP for making the Ground Zero mosque a political issue, but to see a Democrat follow their lead is disgusting.
Where does politics stop and our democractic principles begin, Harry?
guys, please. it’s not a mosque and it’s not at ground zero!! calling it a ground zero mosque is how ppl pour oil on the fire
I’m not certain there is any need to tiptoe around what is essentially a constitutional issue. “Near Ground Zero” is more like it, but there is no need for the Muslim group or groups interested in the site to be apologetic.
Once you unleash the dogs of war, as Obama has done in Afghanistan and elsewhere, is it really a surprise that “back home” that engenders a lot of hostility towards Muslims? Note too that Obama has BACKTRACKED on his initial statements, something the diarist misses completely.
people who live in glass houses…
he’s a punk ass bitch.
Where’s the outrage from the left, Rikyrah? The same left who wait with baited breath to pounce on everything the President says is rather silent don’t you think? Harry Reid just abandoned the principles of Democrats and more importantly the Constitution he swore to uphold, but I don’t see any glaring headlines on Huffington Post calling him a sell out of the Constitution. As a matter of fact, Huffington Post is calling it “Ground Zero Mosque”. The same left that want to hold the President accountable for every minor and imagined violation of the liberal bible having nothing to say against the Senate Majority Leader?! Why does he get a pass? You know why!
Indeed – because a president always gets more scrutiny, credit and blame than a Senate Majority Leader.
Always.
Suckered again. Just like their withdrawing in fear last year with the phoney baloney “death panels”. This year the GOP weapon of mass distraction is mosques. (And Islamic cultural centers)
You put your finger on the pulse, but if Harry Reid were trying to counter the GOP effort, he picked the wrong means of agreeing with them.
It’s a new GOP strategy to embrace Islamophobia. Two articles appeared in Alternet yesterday arguing that the GOP intends to fully develop Islamophobia as a campaign strategy, and to use Islam and perhaps Muslim-Americans as their next scapegoats.
GOP Fully Intends to Pit Americans Against Each Other Over the Cordoba House
And then,
Palin of course is already part of the act. It is interesting to observe that, except for John Bolton, the Neoconservatives are not on board, yet. Keep tuned in.
Once you sift through all the political bullshit and the opportunistic reactions of the Republicans and a lot of Democrats it boils down to this. Is it permissible in this country, if someone is able to meet all the lawful local and/or state criteria for permits, to still refuse to give permission to someone to erect a structure simply because you disagree with or find deplorable their belief system. Not anything they have personally done, but because you disagree with what their religion believes?.
If that is the case, how far away from an abortion clinic does a church, which preaches that abortion is a sin and a crime, have to be before it is allowed to be constructed in the same proximate area as a clinic which advises pregnant women on all their options with regard to their pregnancy? How far away does a church, which preaches that the use of contraception is a sin against god, have to be before it is allowed to be constructed in the same proximate area as a pharmacy which dispenses birth control?
From a constitutional standpoint, where do we draw the line? This is a very, very slippery slope which inevitable leads us into the murky abyss of the law of unintended consequences.
One thing which I have wrestled with greatly of late, and am still wrestling with as I type this, is the assertion that Islam, at it’s core, is a “good and peaceful” religion. While I have no doubt that there are many millions of Muslims around the world who practice their religion in a peaceful and non-violent way, one cannot dispute that if a believer takes the writings of the Koran at their face value as written, there is no doubt that it requires its followers to kill apostates and to wage jihad against infidels; non-believers in Islam. This jihad is often referred to by moderate Muslims as a spiritual struggle. But over the entire history of Islam, this jihad has been a central tenet of the Islamic faith. And it has not been preached as simply a spiritual struggle, but the physical elimination of anyone who does not hold fast to the strict tenets of the Islamic faith as outlined in the Koran. Killing in the name of Allah is the highest honor that results in the greatest rewards in the afterlife. Since the Koran is viewed in Islam, like the Bible in the Christian religion, as an inerrant and infallible inspiration from god, it’s words are not subject to interpretation based on current cultural norms. They are, after all, “God’s commandments”.
Islam is made of some very distinct and well defined beliefs. They have been written down and practiced without question for centuries. To deny that this is real is simply being intellectually dishonest, possibly as an effort to avoid the allegations of “intolerance” or “religious bigotry”. There are most certainly similar extreme views which are written in the “holy books” of most other major religions, but not a one of these, like Islam, has literally millions and millions of devoted followers willing to carry out these extreme views and follow through with the actual killing, on a mass scale, of those who disagree with their beliefs. This is something which seems, almost singularly, to be a characteristic of the literal interpretation of true Islamic beliefs.
To say that what happened on September 11 had nothing to do with Islam is absolutely not true. I would welcome someone to make a rational and logical case for the argument that these men were not carrying out the literal interpretation of the commandments of their faith. They were not distorting or twisting something into a fanatical act, they were following a basic and foundational commandment of their faith. I will probably take a lot of shots for some of what I have said here, but I respect the views and wisdom of the people on this blog to help me work through some of these things that I am wrestling with here. Some might think I am way off base here and, if you are one of these people, please tell me what you think.
I am struggling mightily with this right now. It is a very serious subject which is taking away a lot of the political oxygen right now. But for me, it’s more a personal struggle with how I view religious beliefs as a whole.
It’s just not true that Islam on face value requires a believer to kill apostates – but there’s no way to explain this in a reply comment except to say it’s no more true than to say Christianity and Judaism require slavery, for example. I highly recommend an intro Islam course where you can ask all your questions and discuss in detail with fellow students.
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Rather it’s the teacher who commands his disciples or followers.
In every religion, cult or belief advocated by people there are the fundamentalists who teach the extreme and so often are misguided in the basic law of human dignity and universal rights of man.
The largest Muslim population lives on the extended island archipel of Indonesia. The people are the most friendly and tolerant you can imagine. Have been occupied and stolen of their resources for centuries by the Dutch, Portugese and British. The same nations who were involved in the lucrative slave trade from West Africa to the Caribbean and Americas.
On Indonesia the government have wrestled with Islam fundamentalism for many decades. It’s the Saudi funds and violent form seen with Osama bin Laden’s Wahabism and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood of Ayman al-Zawahiri who spread extremism across the globe. Morocco, Algeria, Nigeria, Somalia, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghan Pashtuns, Kashmir, Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines (island of Mindanao). In Indonesia it’s the teachings of one man Abu Bakar Bashir in countless madrasses across the nation that leads to acts of terror.
You noticed I’ve not mentioned Jordan, Iraq and Iran. It’s the failure of the economic and military powers of the West who have failed miserably over many decades and certainly after Colonialism ended in the aftermath of World War II. Just the fact how and why the Jewish state of Israel was established. Pushed through by violent means and terror against the British occupier.
It’s more often that religion cannot be seen separate from historical events, culture and political exploitation that lays a foundation or the seeds of future upheaval in society and the call for a strong man, dictator or fascist regime. The United States is going through such a phase of history since the 90’s and stolen election of 2000.
It seems the nation is lacking in numbers of people of good will …
Don’t underestimate the damage done weekly by the MSM, right wingers and the weekly support of some evangelist “preachers” during sermons. It’s a single person who infects hundreds of thousand of listeners and followers.
Nothing new in society, but so very damaging the fabric of it’s people to live side by side based on the freedoms written in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
Islamic extremism and Saudi funded mosques in The Netherlands [pdf]
“I have many doubts just like you. Family and friends have been torn apart ever since the attack on the Twin Towers and Washington DC on 9/11. In The Netherlnads we have seen an political assassination Fortuyn by an animal rights fanatic. The murder of Theo van Gogh and the rise of Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders. Pure political exploitation of the unrest in the nation for personal gain. Where and when have we seen this before when the economic and political circumstances where ripe for revolt? Just open any history book …”
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Richard Bachman, I’ve found some of Karen Armstrong’s writings to be both helpful and provocative on the subject of religion in general, and Islam in particular. I don’t agree with everything she says, but she makes me think.
One thing I’ve found helpful over the years is to take various writers’ statements and conclusions about Islam, substitute the word “Christianity”, and see what happens.
Not to pick on you, but for example:
“(Christianity) is made of some very distinct and well defined beliefs. They have been written down and practiced without question for centuries. To deny that this is real is simply being intellectually dishonest, possibly as an effort to avoid the allegations of “intolerance” or “religious bigotry”. There are most certainly similar extreme views which are written in the “holy books” of most other major religions, but not a one of these, like (Christianity), has literally millions and millions of devoted followers willing to carry out these extreme views and follow through with the actual killing, on a mass scale, of those who disagree with their beliefs. This is something which seems, almost singularly, to be a characteristic of the literal interpretation of true (Christian) beliefs.
Now, looking at the full sweep of Christian history, it’s certainly true that throughout the ages—up to and including our own—there are millions of Christians willing to kill on a mass scale those who disagree with their beliefs.
However, that’s not all of Christian history. There are lots of wonderful examples—both individual and collective—of Christians demonstrating their love and respect for others, both Christian and non-Christian. The same is true for Islam.
Last point: The evidence of the last 10-20 years is that there are comparatively few (hundreds, perhaps thousands) of Muslims willing to kill on a mass scale for their beliefs. (And if large numbers of US soldiers were not stationed in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan, there would likely be fewer.)
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I find the manner of discussion baffling, do we lack other pressing issues like jobs and the economy? The Repugs are pushing this discussion like hell, I find it a non-issue, especially since the excellent speech by mayor Bloomberg and the religious community from New York in support of him.
We have statements from the extremists across the globe: Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar and right-winger Likudnik Geert Wilders. Let’s join the fray! Bloomberg’s leadership.
Here is more evidence the manner the Republican administration and the CIA performed under the Bush years … all tremendous policy to
root outrecruit terrorists."But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Beyond comprehension, staggering, loathsome. The office of the Speaker of the US Senate, Harry Reid, finds it appropriate to reassure us that Mr. Speaker RESPECTS the first article of the Bill of Rights. He respects it! We can no longer simply assume he finds it to be out of the realm of discussion, settled law and tradition in the US—an article of principle. No more. Everyhing is up for grabs. Mr. O. has also made an ass of himself on this issue. Instead of clearing brush like Bush, he asserts his manly stance by displaying economic savvy about real estate in lower Manhattan, as if that has anthing to do with it. The well has been totally poisoned and few people in the US and Europe for that matter aren’t drinking at it.
Setting aside his celebrated pusillanimity, Reid’s comment essentially reveals the standard Beltway mentality. It doesn’t matter what you say, because you don’t mean it. Words are just to be used to get re-elected, not to be acted on one way or another.
Get the elections over and back to the trough!
Why America Needs More Muslims
“The absurd controversy over the proposed Islamic center in New York shows that many Americans need to meet some Muslims.”
Joshua Holland
Our media never let reality get in the way of a good story.
Relevant:
Two comments in the past week have intrigued me. One was from a panelist on CNN who was obviously against anything Muslim anywhere, anytime and he seemed to think he had a scoop about Islam and he crowed and crowed that only in Islam would one choose their religion first over their country.
Now that’s an interesting statement to make in a Country that prides itself on a foundation based on separation of church and state.
And it got me to thinking about asking the question of the Fundamentalists, or as is oft asked, ‘what would Jesus do?’
Of course it’s a trick question in America just as it was a trick comment from the panelist, but one that they now deserve to have asked.
Second comment was on Larry King where he had the Tillman family on about the new documentary. From one of Pat’s platoon mates, who was with Pat when he was shot, came the comment that under fire he had started to pray but was stopped short by Pat who told him instead to start paying attention. The kid was only 19 but looking back he figures that Pat’s direction, under fire, probably saved the 19 year old’s life.
So goes the stories of distraction.
Harry Reid, the King of Caves. I hope the wingnut beats him so we can have someone not testosterone deficient as Majority Leader.