It doesn’t matter what Jared Bernstein says. It doesn’t matter what Paul Krugman says. Or the president. They aren’t listening. They are not going to listen. They are going to crash the car into the ditch. And, you know, like it or not, we’re all in the car.
Some of them believe their own bullshit about supply-side economics. Most of the rest are well-paid to pretend they believe it. A small remainder know better but are afraid to counter the party’s position.
We can use all the statistics in the world, appeal to every historical parallel, bring out every expert, cite every non-partisan study, and it isn’t going to matter. We will not convince them that their way lies destruction.
And there is no stopping them. When Reagan’s tax cuts ballooned the deficit, they forgot it happened. When Poppy’s tax hike fixed the problem, they were happy to see him go. The success of Bill Clinton’s economic recovery act did not impress them. They learned nothing from Dubya’s destruction of the global economy. They didn’t change their beliefs or behavior after getting drubbed two straight times in 2006 and 2008. They just doubled-down on the obstruction and the propaganda and the poison, and repeated a now well-worn pattern of exploding the debt only to turn around and blame the Democrats and social programs for the deficit.
They can’t be taught through reason nor through electoral defeat. They will not argue or negotiate in good faith. Science means nothing to them. College education is suspect and institutions of higher learning are teeming with un-American disloyalists, socialists, and atheists.
Minorities and gays are eating away at the fabric of our society. Food Stamps are consuming our entire budget. The Muslims are coming to impose Shariah Law.
Do you have a solution for dealing with these people? Because, I don’t.
A lot of progressives had a strategy to deal with these folks in January 2009 that involved at least acknowledging that the modern day GOP does not act in good faith and had doubled down on their far right ideas. White House went a different road and here we are. You can say it would be worse if the progressives were calling the shots in the WH and maybe it would be.
I’m certainly hoping to be pleasantly surprised that the WH has this all figured out- that the politics of opposition and extremism adopted by the right to make Obama less effective, alienate him from his base, etc, will force the GOP to nominate a far-right, weak candidate taking policy positions that turn off independents. That could be the split the baby approach that the DC power brokers can live with: austerity now and forever with little help for working Americans, but Obama gets a second term.
And what happens when the economy doesn’t get any better, and job creation numbers are anemic at best?
thank you for saying what needed to be said.
there were a lot for good ideas: larger stimulus, treating the defeated party the same way the GOP treated us, rewarding friends and punishing enemies.
instead we got this “let’s all meet in the middle” shit, that STILL continues.
so, what ransom will the president pay THIS time? They have hostages you know, and we have to negotiate with the terrorists.
Its frustrating on the one hand to see Boo do such a good job of describing the current dynamic, and at the same time ignore the fact that none of this was inevitable. Instead its a result of not just faulty institutions, but also choices on policies and strategy made by those in power, which from 2009-2011 was the WH and Congressional Dems.
We should have never let the GOP via the tea party seize the potent force of populism. We should have never taken our eye of the ball of creating jobs, by any means necessary. We should have never let the health care negotiations drag on for a year and a half chasing the bipartisanship unicorn. Losing so many senate seats, state houses, governorships, and the House in 2010 put further progressive change on freeze for likely another 6 years.
that’s why i’m such a harsh critic.
none of this was inevitable.
More like 60 than 6. Next November the voters will choose between the fourth term of Bush and utter insanity. Whichever way they choose I’m screwed. Maybe when someone graduating High School now reaches my advanced age, they will rediscover SS and Medicare, and talk again about Universal Health Care. Or maybe not. We may be screwed for all time.
Next year the real battle is over Congress. Progressives better not forget that.
My Senator, the powerful Dick Durbin, insists that Social Security be on the table. The Republicans, no doubt, will probably run some Tea Bag idiot. Either way, I’m screwed.
The possible good news is that my district has been re-mapped to be much more Democratic. The bad news is that Rahm Emanuel has regarded the Chicago suburbs as his personal fief, preferring hard Right Republicans win rather than allow a non-Machine Democrat to win. So, I’ll probably have another choice between a DINO with lips permanently attached to Rahm’s ass, or a Right Wing crazy like Roskam.
I’ve been voting in every election since 1966. Maybe it’s time to join the majority who stay home and refuse to choose between Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
the progressive strategy was to create a congress run by the far right and the far left. A congress where nothing would get done because both sides are about showing who has the biggest dick.
the progressive strategy is just present a good policy and ignore the politics.
if the progressive strategy worked, if it was better, you would be in control of the party. you’d be winning more elections. and you wouldn’t be whining about feeling left out.
this isn’t a case of the DFH hippies were right. larger stimulus? where were the fucking votes? where the damn votes for all the shit that progressives had in their strategy?
Do you have a solution for dealing with these people? Because, I don’t.
I do but I doubt the DSCC/DCCC will spent the cash to implement them. The other part of the plan would be to put the fear of God into Wall Street. Of course most people will tell me that it’s illegal. But then so was the Iraq War and lots of stuff W. & Co. did. Need I remind you what Jimmy Malone said in The Untouchables?
Obama’s plan is to let the GOP punch themselves out. Why now do you stop believing it will work?
Heck, maybe Dems should just start advocating for shariah law and gay equality and whatever else in public and let Republicans get their “wins” that way. Maybe then they’d leave the safety net and fiscal balance alone for a while…
Oh well, just remember in your darkest hour: at least we’re not Japan. Or Italy. Or like, Mexico or something. So we’ve got that going for us.
Still hoping sanity prevails, although sanity seems to have a liberal bias…
However, it must be said that Republicans simply must see some gain in driving us over the cliff. I don’t see it, when it appears to fail on so many levels. Surely the destruction of trillions in accumulated wealth will affect their main benefactors, and that can’t be good for them. And the resulting mass chaos and want could easily drive the nation towards a systemic legal revisionism that would shake out the widespread corruption and malfeasance found within the financial services sector and the political system, and again that can’t be good for them either. But maybe this is their Harold Camping in reverse moment. They seem to firmly believe that Armageddon won’t happen no matter how reckless they become, so they will become as reckless as they think they need be in order to extract concessions from the administration…
Maybe they’re right, but the facts as well as sanity seem to have a liberal bias…
Their main benefactors will profit mightily from their ability to use other peoples’ capital for their own gain, and from their inside knowledge of what the Rep intentions really are. There’s as much money to be made from a crash as from a bubble — all that matters is knowing which is on its way.
Why would they fear chaos and social breakdown? They’d assume that their money, power, and massive propaganda machine will be more than enough to grab total control in order to “save” us. Facts and sanity are not premium products in Beck’s/Palin’s/Cain’s America.
We are sinking back into recession. They win. I have one question Why in the fuck didn’t the dems vote for the clean debt ceiling hike? It was an opportunity to act like adults. I though everyone wanted to be the adult.
The Repug plan is the government closes its eyes and curls up in the fetal position until we have 30% unemployment and our low wages are the envy of despots everywhere. That is how a pure free market system handles economic problems. I don’t like that plan.
The Reps put a 2/3 majority requirement on the bill in order for it to pass. It had nothing whatever to do with actually raising the ceiling because Reps were not going to vote for it. Its only intention was to get Dems to vote to blame Obama for the deficit. Why would they vote for that on a fake bill that means nothing?
My question is, why would 97 of them be stupid enough to fall for such an obvious scam?
I didn’t know about the 2/3. Still its a principled vote as it should be a clean bill. I would have voted yes. Call me what you want.
You don’t deal with them. You defeat them. All it would take is wanting to destroy their ideology for once and for all. Which would require a whole new Democratic Party or a national grassroots revolution.
The best and only solution is to do nothing except point out who’s doing this and why. The corporations and the billionaire buddies created this monster and now this monster is starting to eat its own tail. I think that if the markets really start to go south the billionaire buddies will try to stop it, but will they be able to? Pass the popcorn. I would trade a 1000 or more drop in the markets to get the kind of reforms we need. Since this is the result of a political hostage situation, I can’t see how the Republicans avoid getting blamed. Maybe on the other side of this we get a better New Deal. I see no way for this to get better before it gets worse, much worse. Better it happens now so Obama has time in his second term to bring us at least part way back.
I’m not sure who “they” is in the first sentence.
I don’t think the job is a matter of teaching “them” but electorally defeating them and culturally defeating the ideas that hold their followers in thrall.
We should stop waiting for the politicians to do the job that we the people should be doing. Politics is not a spectator sport. It’s not only the progressives Democrats in Congress who need to be doing the persuading.
Of course, it’s a nasty fight. The Republicans have framed the issue as a civil war as much as Mohammed Saleh has framed the preservation of his power as a civil war.
The strategic advantage that we have in our arguments is that middle-class Republicans and independents have relatives in nursing homes that have their bills paid by Medicaid. And the states that are moving most agressively to cut Medicaid are exactly those that are Republican strongholds. When grandpa or grandma show up on your doorstep with their oxygen tanks and their tubes and your alterntative is a $1344 a week sitter or do it yourself, your ideology goes out the window. And no amount of Sharia law stories or moralizing about minorities or gays is going to mitigate that.
And enough of them are not so invested in defending the team that they will be a big swing vote–even in Utah or Mississippi.
Some of my wingnut relatives are returning to sanity. Have you noticed a change in yours? Might Thanksgivings return to the normal bad experiences before the age of Rush and FoxNews.
By the way, for your listening enjoyment:
Brother Sun performs “FoxNews”
TD, the best as always.
Right as rain, TarheelDem. Unfortunately, when Grandma or Grandpa show up on their doorstep, they will not blame Bush or Ryan. They will blame Democrats for giving all the bennies to blacks and illegals (any Mexican is illegal in their eyes). So it will be the fault of the “Socialist” in the White House, or Nancy Pelosi, or Harry Reid or George Soros or a secret world cabal or anybody but their own TeaBag buddies and selves. I know these guys and I know you have them in Carolina as well.
Go look at the headlines in the right hand column. It is all news about GOP or Wiener’s junk.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room
Gawd the media is awful.
Today I heard a wide variety of GOPers saying exactly the same thing: “The Dems don’t have a plan for Medicare.” Of course we do; It’s already working. There is solid evidence that the improvements in the health care law and some of the incentives in the Stimulus are already slowing the rate of increase in Medicare expenses. But again and again I watched MSM show Cantor and Ryan recite Luntz’ meme-of-the-day: “The Dems Don’t Have a Plan” and Dems responding with some esoteric and inscrutable explanation.
Memes. Bumber stickers. Sound bytes. Just not Socratic analyses!
How to deal with Republicans?
Invade their country, jail their leaders, and convert them all to (genuine) Christianity.
Drown them in a bathtub.*
*Hey, just kidding! Little bit of wingnut humor there! Hey, if Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck can do it, why can’t we?
They are moronic ideologues who cannot be reasoned with. So why the fuck doesn’t Obama say that to the American people? Why does he continue to elevate them by negotiating with them? Why doesn’t he ridicule there ridiculous positions on the problems which are killing this country?
The Republicans WILL crash the car into the ditch.
But the real tragedy is that Barack Obama will do nothing to stop them.
Don’t ever give up. The base is fraying, the middle class is waking up, keep talking, keep pushing. I just had a Republican accountant e-mail me a screed that sounded like a liberal. Here is what he said in response to my lamenting where we are today.
“The middle class has developed three coping mechanisms in order for their standard of living to keep pace with the growth of the economy:
The jig is up now and the coping mechanisms have been exhausted. Meanwhile, the rich have gotten tax breaks and are not paying as much. Because the coping mechanisms no longer work there is more unrest and dissatisfaction with the government, concerns about the U.S. debt, etc.
The problem with the rich getting richer is that they don’t spend all they make – they either save it or speculate with it, often overseas. Consequently, the money that the corporations are making is not getting recirculated in the economy as it would if it were going to the workers who produced that income, or to the government via an increase in the personal income tax.”
This guy is waking up…so don’t give up.
It may not matter what you or I or Paul Krugman say, but I think the Republicans, at least those in power, will listen to the wealthy interests that finance them in the first place. Right now it’s in their interest to make us think they’re ready to drive the car off the cliff, because that’s how they can scare us into making concessions, but in the end, the people with deep pockets would pay as deeply as anyone, and will make it clear to those that serve their interests that an actual default is not acceptable. Certainly they seem to believe this, as there’s no sign of a panic so far.
Or maybe not. Maybe this time Frankenstein won’t be able to call back his monster. I don’t really know. But I was surprised at how quickly they compromised to avoid a budget shutdown, so I’m hoping this is the case.
WE NEED TO QUIT CAVING INTO THEM. Stop with this bi partisian shit. THERE IS NO BI PARTICIAN. We still hold the Senate and WH. If they refuse to raise the debt ceiling THEN SO BE IT. Sure as hell is worth it to save Medicare and SS for cryin’ out loud. If we gut Medicare we are a sorry sack of shit-especially when we have a DEMOCRATIC president.
Good grief. The thugs are nothing but stupid bullies. Someone needs to stand up and say ENOUGH. Damn shame we don’t have anyone to do that.
I keep seeing this as a scene in Blazing Saddles, with John Boehner as Sherriff Bart. (Hey, black, orange, whatever.) Boehner has just ridden into Rock Ridge. The citizenry have recognized him for what he is, and are demanding he raise the debt limit. He’s pulled a gun, is holding it to his own head, and is threatening to blow it off if he can’t gut Medicare. I’m hoping Obama is ready to tell him `That guy Boehner is crazy, he’ll do it. You’re on your own, John.’
Yeah, but I’m fairly convinced we’re all fucked because of climate change anyway. It’s leading me to care less if they crash the car. Some of me wants them to; who’s ready to hit the barricades? I feel awfully privileged to say that, seeing as I don’t have a family to look after and provide for. But alternatively, what else is left? Hanging on until the other side dies and/or a new opposition forms?
Cup and saucer…
Phosphoric acid, 8 molar.
Oh wait, you mean a political solution? Ummm. See above.
I increasingly worry that the only solution that will present itself will be a violent one.
Make the Republicans feel the economic pain they are going to create first.
Inform the Republicans that if they cause a default, the first thing we are going to stop paying is salaries and benefits for Republican House and Senate members and their staffs. Next, we are going to stop paying contractors located in Republican districts and for federally funded infrastructure projects in their districts. Then, we are going to shut down federal offices in Republican districts. Finally, if we have to, we will stop paying out federal benefits in Republican districts.
In short, if Republicans want our country to experience life without a financially functioning government, they can and should go through that experience first.
Imprison the Koch brothers as “enemy combatants”, it will put an end to a lot of our problems.
I don’t know what to do and I think that is the most honest answer there is.
In a sane world, the media would have crucified Republicans and voters would have punished them at the polls for their deliberate tanking of the economy. That way we wouldn’t have to worry about messaging and hostage taking.
Moody issues a warning here.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/moodys-to-us-well-downgrade-credit-rating-if-no-deal-on-d
ebt-ceiling-by-mid-july.php?ref=fpa