The interesting thing about this guy’s comments about rape is that he doesn’t really consider the role of the parents in the whole thing. It’s true that if you have a young women, especially a teenager, and she becomes pregnant out-of-wedlock, it can cause some serious problems with her parents. In a lot of the world, her own family might kill her. In this country, that level of shame and hostility is very rare, but basic moral condemnation is not. And, in a lot of very socially conservative families, the parents will be very angry and want to know how their daughter could have acted so wickedly. This creates a lot of pressure for the girl to deny that she consented to the act of procreation. She will feel pressure to shift the blame off of herself in order to obtain some mercy and acceptance from her family. And so she will feel the temptation to make a false accusation of rape. But, the likelihood that she will actually make that false accusation is directly correlated with the amount of pressure and moral condemnation she receives from her family. It is their lack of acceptance of her basic sexuality and her human frailty that drives her to do something horribly wrong.
So, yes, if you are a boy living in a community with a lot of parents who are extremely conservative about human sexuality and you get someone pregnant, then it is much more likely that you will be falsely accused of rape. But this isn’t because the girls in your community are more evil. It’s because the parents are more evil.
Men who live in more socially liberal communities do not worry about being falsely accused of rape. At least, they don’t in the case of an accidental pregnancy. It’s always possible to encounter someone who doesn’t like how they were treated and is vindictive and psycho, But, if you treat women with respect, it’s not likely that you’ll ever be falsely accused of rape in a liberal community.
Conservative men think about false rape allegations quite a lot. I say that based on the strange frequency with which they bring up the subject. I used to think it was because they have a tendency to treat women poorly and thus have reason to worry about vindictiveness. I still think that that is part of the explanation. But I also think that it’s a rational decision for some girls to make in the context of their conservative family culture. Better to say you didn’t consent than to be beaten or shunned by Mom and Dad. There are some cultures where the family won’t let girls get off that easy, and they’ll kill their daughter for allowing herself to be raped. When things get that bad, it’s best not to ever be alone with a boy.
In any case, the point is that women can’t express themselves sexually and live out their lives in freedom as long as they have to deal with this kind of harsh moral judgment. The problem isn’t false rape allegations. The problem is people putting some dogma over their love and acceptance of their daughters. On the whole, it’s a bigger problem that too few rapes are reported and successfully prosecuted than it is that some people get falsely accused.
I wrote a comment while on Ron Paul forums one time back in 2009 when I was sitting in World Regions class back in college about this. Most of them said that rape from drinking is partially the woman’s fault. I won’t post the whole thing, but I will post part of it that I think is relevant:
The second aspect of course is their own feeling of entitlement. False rape and “drunk rape is her fault” come up just as frequently in conservative circles as reverse racism. They’re sick individuals.
So it’s not so much about worried about “vindictiveness” or even a girl/woman actually doing it for fear of the wrath of her parentals: a lot of it is they know that when you show them the true definition of rape and/or sexual harassment, they know in their hearts they’re guilty of it. And that scares them. “I’m not a rapist! I’m a good guy!”
Sure. I think that is depressingly prevalent. There are a lot of guys who have treaded the line on what is appropriate. And the line can be a little blurry sometimes. And there a lot of guys who know they clearly crossed the line and got away with it. I don’t know that you can really put a political marker on those kinds of cases. I think it’s something that happens with young men who are inexperienced and overeager and perhaps ingrained with some pretty lame or naive or incorrect ideas about female sexuality.
If you know, consciously or unconsciously, that you could, but for the grace of God, be in prison for rape, then you might engage in the kind of, “but I’m a good guy and don’t deserve to be in prison” attitude. And in some cases where things were a bit blurry, maybe learning something was the best justice. “Go forth and sin no more.”
You know, don’t treat women like that.
We make fun of Akin for making distinctions about rape, but there is a difference between sleeping with someone who is too drunk to rationally consent and lurking in a parking garage with a knife. Both things are properly called rape, but the mindset and intent are completely different. And the punishments should reflect that difference.
What I am talking about here though is how conservative parents can cause false accusations. You know, if your parents are going to disown you and throw you out on the street if you admit consenting, that is a powerful incentive to deny consenting. And then the snowball gathers mass.
Oh sorry, I didn’t necessarily mean to put a political marker on it, per se. I’m just saying that this is the thinking I see when I hear accusations of “false rape”. I see men who know what they did in the past, they know they were wrong, but they can’t admit it.
I’d say the worst of it comes from the online libertarian community, though. That community also happens to overlap with a lot of the atheist community as well.
Perhaps on-line, but in person most atheists I know are pretty much in the mainstream (or what was the mainstream until 15 or so years ago) on matters of economics, science, and the role of government in society. I suspect it comes with the territory. But then, being an atheist myself, maybe that’s the kind of people I hang around with so my view may be distorted.
Even so, with regard to libertarians I have rarely met one who actually held to his (usually his) or her so-called principles when you dug into issues in detail. The sole exceptions were a couple of people who were so steeped in libertarianism that they worked on the Liberatarian party’s presidential campaign in different years.
Except for those two my experience is that they start talking from a libertarian perspective but very quickly show their latent teavangelical leanings. Sometimes they echo a Limbaughism vis-a-vis “feminazis” – other time its a racist comment vis-a-vis affirmative action. But in the last 5 years or so I’ve found that they way to REALLY check their bonafides is to bring up the topic of evolution. I’ve been shocked about the degree to which so-called libertarians with supposed “separation of church and state” beliefs have bought into shit like intelligent design. “I get that there is microevolution but I don’t believe in macroevolution” is a common phrase I’ve heard. Needless to say most of these idiots (who often are have very strong smarts in terms of math or language) also believe that the earth is cooling.
In the end I’ve come to believe that the libertarian party is just a fringe wing of the teavangelical movement. Remember that in 2008 Ron Paul endorsed not the libertarian candidate but the Constitution Party candidate – a party that is intensely based on theological authoritarianism.
What does that have to do with atheism? Well, if you meet someone who claims to be a libertarian atheist treat that claim with heavy skepticism. It’s likely just a badge they wear to improve their status, but deep down they are likely just another full-fledged wingnut.
Well, the atheists I know and hang around with are here, or share these views: Free Thought Blogs. I never meant to disparage atheists; I am one, and I want it to be a bigger movement than simply “atheism” (see Atheism +)
If you read there, I’m sure you know all about Elevator-Gate (Link). Or the run-in with Thunderf00t and his obsession with feminazis: Link Or The Amazing Atheist
Now those incidents blew up the atheist online community worldwide, and those are just off the top of my head. And the sad part is, a lot of these atheists do not side with PZ Myers, but with Dawkins, or Thunderf00t, or whoever else.
The online community in general tends to be much more atheist and/or anti-theist than the population writ-large. I suspect a lot of this has to do with the fact that people spending their time around YouTube or meme-centers are also younger than average, and my generation is rejecting theism in far larger numbers than any preceding generation (yay!).
However, a big chunk of the online community also happens to be libertarian and followers of Ron Paul. And that’s where you get a lot of overlap between these people, and the online atheist community. Perhaps in person the older libertarian set is your average Teahadist (doesn’t surprise me). But the online community? Not so much.
Also, Michael Shermer is a libertarian, though I don’t know his views on sexism, etc. He does write at CATO occasionally, and considering they always say how much the wage gap is nothing but a big fat myth, it wouldn’t shock me if he shared their views.
Boo:
We’ve usually disagreed, though we are on the same side. I find your writing compelling so I keep coming back despite our disagreement. I’ve contributed in the past to your fundraisers and I wish you, CabinGirl, and your family all the best.
The last two days you’ve been phenomenally productive. 9 posts! Let’s look at the last 5 titles:
“Romney Needs a Groin Shot”
“Sorry, Ann, Your Spouse is a Liar”
“Stupid Republicans”
“Not a Normal Person”
“Conservatives and Rape”
I commend you for for fighting as hard as you are fighting – all five of those posts are “groin shots” at the Republicans. I see this is how you are reacting to the polling news and admire your spirit. This is how all of us should react.
I hope Biden shows just half of your spirit tomorrow at the debate.
If either participant to sexual intercourse says it’s rape, or says it isn’t rape, it’s rape. Accuse it, or deny it, it’s rape.
If you had sex with another person, and that person says you raped them, you did rape them. If you had sex with another person, and you later have to deny it was rape, you did rape them. This isn’t even subtle. I don’t doubt that it happens a lot. It’s always rape.
What parents think, say, or feel about it is irrelevant. Likewise, it doesn’t matter how we legislate about it, what laws we put in place to prevent it, or punish it. It’s always rape.
Ummm, no.
Not even close.
What people say is irrelevant.
I think what you mean is that if one person feels that they have been raped, then they owed the presumption of correctness.
People can say anything they want, even if they don’t believe what they are saying.
Kind of close, I think. Post was a thought experiment; admittedly not conclusive.
I was trying to figure out if it’s an easy question: what is rape?
Many folks believe it’s just what people say.
I’d stand by the premise that anyone that ends up in a situation where they must later defend themselves against an accusation at the least exercised bad judgment. Don’t have sex with someone you don’t know well enough to trust that they won’t later accuse you of rape.
Are you fucking insane?
adding: And I think I get why Penn State is so messed up, even in a world of hopelessly corrupt college ball. Most fans like their coaches, but their loyalty is to the school first and foremost. Penn State is the only case I know of where the coach trumped the program
Essay writing services review
Hello ask,
a trollbot has attached itself to your comment. it’s waiting to be zapped
Zapped.
Umm, no! There was a rather famous case here in Northern Illinois where a girl accused her boyfriend of rape. It was one of the first DNA cases. He spent years in jail before she admitted that it was the first time they didn’t use condoms and she was afraid that she was pregnant so she accused him out of fear of her parents and the whole thing snowballed. Kathy something. I’ll remember the details later.
It isn’t just parents.
I met someone recently who in HS was invited into a “three-way” by a 16 yr old girl. She thought it somehow would make her cool among her peers that she would do something so “daring”. (a whole lot messed up with that alone).
But when she told her best friend, she not only wasn’t impressed she proceeded to tell the whole school she was “a slut”, the girl filed charges against the boys for rape.
Months of news coverage and $150k in legal fees later (his college fund) the girl changed her story rather than perjure herself at the trial (and apologized), But the life long damage was done to ALL involved.
The only reason for legal gratitude was the girl was 16 by only a few weeks and so the boys barely avoided mandatory statuary rape charges and lifetime sexual predator status.
But relevant to this thread, social pressure caused these participants to both engage in and regret risky and less than “exemplar” sexual behavior. And in the end everything and everyone got pretty fucked up.
So she let him rot in jail and you’re blaming THE PARENTS?
Wow.
Now that’s politically correct.
Uhm – the commenter does no such thing – only observes that the accuser was influenced by her parents (and possibly, her environment).
Wow, what a moron. Try reading carefully, bozo. Conservatives are invariably stupid, and you fit the bill to a “t”.
Thank you.
Ah. The mean girls.
Tammy Duckworth Joe Walsh debate video, also impressive what she starts out with re: social sec and medicare
http://bcove.me/vq233e4m
Still think it’s Obama in a landslide?
Yeah. I do.
Of course, that really depends on what you would call a landslide. Personally, I define it as > 320 EV and/or 53%+ of the popular vote.
So, yeah. I do.
Hope you’re right, of course.
But that first debate hurt.
Pretty much, yeah.
I think young women in more liberal communities are also less likely to get pregnant in the first place, since they’re less likely to have been lied to in their sex ed classes. Hell, they might even believe that contraceptives work, and know how to use them!