I just saw this excellent article in the Guardian about why so many Americans hate government right up until the time they need it’s help. The author, Paul Harris, makes a valid argument for why Americans only seem to love their government in times of crisis. It comes from two competing but equally important values that we have all been indoctrinated with at some time in our lives. The value of individualism – the self made man or woman – versus the value that so many people in our past and in our present focused upon when danger threatened, the spirit of community.
Harris even provides us the perfect example of both values in action (though he admittedly borrows it from the late Kurt Vonnegut) – volunteer firefighters:
[T]he late great writer Kurt Vonnegut, often held up as America’s conscience, praised volunteer firefighters in so many of his books. After all, the small-town firefighting department is an expression of the community as a whole, as it needs to respond to catastrophe. But it’s also made up of individual volunteers.
The volunteers are making individual choices, but they are choosing to act in support of thier community. And who pays for the firefighting equipment they need? Government. As much as so many Republicans claim to hate government, and want to “drown it in a bathtub,” they are also often the first to clamor for government’s help in times of disaster. Chris Christie, Republican governor, is but the latest in a long line of Republicans who demand the Federal government “bail them out” when they know they are in too deep. The TARP program, after all, was first and foremost a Republican program created by a Republican President, George Bush, to benefit Wall Street, Big Banls and lastly keep a second Great Depression at bay. Was it necessary to prevent a depression? Likely yes, but it was also necessary to save their own economic skins (or at least the skins of their biggest supporters – Big Banks and Wall Street).
So, it’s important to remember that the Republican party is not really against government. Far from it, despite what they tell their libertarian hangers-on in the Ron Paul wing of their party. They are for very much in favor of a federal government that safeguards their lives, imposes their “values” on the rest of us and, in the case of corporate persons, their massive profits. So when no overwhelming, hit you upside the head and make you take notice, crisis exists they make jokes about government:
There is a Ronald Reagan gag trotted out all the time by Republican politicians. “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help,'” he quipped. It always gets a laugh.
But as Mr. Harris notes, when disaster strikes – for example when economic, terrorist attacks, or natural catastrophes, such as the wildfires, droughts and super storms we’ve experienced over the last decade – they forget they ever heard that joke, much less laughed at it:
Trying telling that [Reagan] joke to anyone in trouble right now in New Jersey, New York, Virginia or Maryland. They won’t be laughing with you. Not even the Republicans among them.
Indeed, the main recent catastrophe where America failed to step up to the plate – the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina – was seen mostly as a failure of too little government help. President George W Bush and his reviled Fema boss Michael Brown were lambasted for not doing enough: for government inaction. The hero of the hour became the National Guard, which swept into the disaster zone to take action: again, a bunch of reservist volunteers who make up a part of government.
Unfortunately most of our crises are slow moving and require a singular ginormous event to make people sit up and pay attention. Like Japan, which failed to notice its over-reliance ion nuclear power in a land beset by earthquakes until Fukushima occurred, we allow the slow crises in education, manufacturing jobs, an under-regulated financial system, crumbling critical infrastructure, etc., to continue until the lid literally blows off the top, and we realized, as did the Marines in Stanley Kubrick’s classic Vietnam film, Full Metal Jacket, that yes, we are deep in the shit.
A natural catastrophe, such as Sandy, of course, has the advantage of being an immediate and galvanizing event that demands action. Everyone sees the need, everyone affected wants government action and help. And everyone complains, as George Bush found out, when government, BIG government, doesn’t come through with the goods upon demand. Unfortunately, most of the crises we face as a nation are of the long simmering variety: lost jobs, poor or non-existent health care, underfunding of schools at all levels, and climate change, which yes, does make super storms more likely – just ask the insurance industry:
While the world has been beset in recent years with various natural disasters–from heat waves in Europe and flooding in Asia to flooding, drought and wildfires in Australia to earthquake and tsunami in Japan–those caused by severe weather have hit the U.S. hardest, according to a study released on Oct. 17 by the massive German reinsurer Munich Re. […]
While doubt over the reality of climate change may persist most strongly in the U.S., ironically, its effects are hitting North American shores–and heartland–the hardest, and insurers cannot afford to doubt the connection.
Munich Re’s report, “Severe weather in North America,” the company said in a statement, “analyzes all kinds of weather perils and their trends. It reports and shows that the continent has experienced the largest increases in weather-related loss events.” […]
Prof. Peter Höppe, who heads Munich Re’s Geo Risks Research unit, was quoted saying, “In all likelihood, we have to regard this finding as an initial climate-change footprint in our U.S. loss data from the last four decades. Previously, there had not been such a strong chain of evidence. If the first effects of climate change are already perceptible, all alerts and measures against it have become even more pressing.”
So while Governor Christie is happy to get disaster relief from the federal government, his party is actively undermining the ability of the federal government to address the long term crisis of climate change, just as they undermine the need for the federal government to regulate our food, our drugs, our workplaces, our financial markets, public health, our freedom to say what we want where we want, and most fundamental of all, our children’s futures.
Oh the GOP won’t do away with government. Their corporate sponsors in the defense industry, the financial industry, the energy industry, the private prison industry and the private education industry (among many others I could name) are dependent upon government largesse for their existence. They need Big government to allow them to keep feeding at the public trough. Republicans, especially political figures, value individualism, true enough, but in a perverted and distorted way. After all, as Mitt Romney put it so bluntly and (for once) honestly, “Corporations are people, too.” And those corporations need Big government to clean up the messes they make. They value community, it’s just not the one that most of us do. It’s the heavily fortified, gated community of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of the rest of us.
They aren’t volunteer firefighters or soldiers or relief workers, though they are glad to receive their help when needed. And unfortunately, too many Americans, indoctrinated from childhood that individualism is the best and highest American value (even if community action is, regrettably, required every so often) are being gulled by Republican propaganda, because they are inclined to view the Federal Government as evil, at worst, and an inefficient and costly means of delivering services at best.
Those whio will vote republican this year are not of necessity “bad people.” They often perform many good acts. They rally in times of crisis to help their neighbors. They enlist in the military, or send their sons and daughters to do so. They volunteer as firefighters. Sadly, they don’t see that their actions are an expression of a profoundly important American value: supporting the community so that all may prosper. Nor do they understand that for all to do well, we need a government that works for all the people, not one run by oligarchs and corporations for the limited benefit of the rich.
Government has always existed and always will. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. The fundamental question is who will our government serve? Will it serve the interests of all Americans, or those of the few? The Republicans stand for the latter proposition, almost uniformly. Democrats, as bad and timid and weak as they often are, primarily stand for the opposite view. Americans should never give up the value of individual achievement. It has led to many great accomplishments and successes.
However, neither should they ignore the value of community, for it is as a community, acting through our government, that we have achieved our greatest feats: the end of slavery, the defeat of fascism and totalitarian communism, the creation of a large middle class, technologies that came out of the effort to send Americans to the Moon, and so on. And the best, most effective way to support and protect our communities is a government committed, to the greatest extent possible, to assisting all Americans, not just the privileged, the powerful, and the greedy.
When President Obama says the American people are faced with two competing visions of America in this election, he is correct. What he doesn’t say, however, is that both visions will require a large federal Government. One of those governments provides vital support for most of our nation’s people, whether through disaster relief, the social safety net, environmental and economic regulation, etc. The other? If you have watched a Romney commercial, or seen him debate President Obama, or heard his 47% speech to donors, you know the answer to that question.
I’m not so sure about all these grand themes. Seems to me we that have three types of rugged individuals.
First there’s the real thing. Mountain men of old, living or dying by their own hand, ready as not to bite somebody’s nose off if that helped. There aren’t many of these, and they don’t participate in politics, or community anything.
Then there are the smart capitalists who can buy whatever community resources they might need. If things go completely to hell they’ll fly off somewhere safe in their little jets. They have crafted the “big government” narrative only to get what they really want out of life: money without limit. If they didn’t have to pay for government, they wouldn’t give a rip how big it was, as long as it didn’t slow down their ride on the gravy train.
Finally, there are the tea party types, the ever-willing pawns of Big Money. They spout the big-government crap like kindergardeners copying the cool behavior of third graders. They need government to make their lives work, but never mind, that requires a little thinking.
Talked to one today. He said the only hope for the Postal Service is Romney (???!!!) because we depend on business mailings and what has Obama done for business? I started to talk about the stimulus and how further stimulus was blocked by the Tea Party and he launched into a diatribe about how Solyndra was unConstitutional because tax money should not be used for private business. I replied, “How do you expect Obama to support business and not support it at the same time?” I retreated because he seemed apoplectic and I didn’t want a loud political argument on the workfloor.
How can he not see the logical inconsistency?
He’ll be paying $4.00 for a two-ounce first-class mailing to UPS or FedEx soon, but it’ll be better, because it’s private.
And he probably won’t be working there. Certainly not with his current pay and benefits.
Well done. FB’d for my friends.
A really good post, Steven.
What’s the definition I’d ask.
It seems to me like the victims of rightwingnut policies and wouldbe practices, like gays denied their civil rights, the uninsured, those in need of other basics like help with food and shelter, etc, or the entire world that will suffer from their povs and obstructionism on global warming, could rightly not a give a rat’s ass if this is a product of willful and deliberate apathy or ignorance.
If as Saint Raygun rightly pronounced, that morality and politics are inseparable, then it naturally follows that if they fail the moral test as measured by their political povs, then they’ve failed period, and meeting such societal expectations as you outlined in service of their community may mitigate the “bad” in them, but it hardly eliminates it.
I’ve been weary for years now, of rightwingers getting a pass for both their immoral apathy and gross ignorance, based on some “Well, they love their family and friends, and little puppy dogs and kittens too!!” standard which your “community” stuff differs little from, like that somehow trumps the many things that darkens their individual and collective souls. Imho, this is one of the major reasons why they’ve achieved and will continue to be as shameless as they currently are — they pay no price for it. They not only have the full support of their fellow apathetic, ignorant kooks, they also largely pay no price on an individual level with “tolerant” lefties who value “civil” relationships with them more than they do the plight of the victims being crushed under the rightwing boots, leaving me wondering which ideology is the more apathetic — rightwingers or their lefty enablers who put so much stock in righty goodness based on their meeting the minimum of societal/moral expectations.
I’d have given up on politics in despair over all of this long ago if not for an occasional rant like this http://fogghorn.blogspot.ca/2012/10/everything-they-say-is-fucking-lie.html indicating to me, that some are waking up to the illusion of “good people supporting bad things” and their role in promoting it. “Tolerance” after all, doesn’t require being tolerant of the kinda intolerance peddle by rightwingers in many ways, and even JC had his “Network Moment” in a tmeple one day.
I am of course, not pointing any fingers at you or anyone else here. I’m merely making the case for which one of those “competing visions” you cited is the right/moral one, and why the wrong one is as competitive as it is. It simply isn’t being framed or denounced as the “bad” that it is in sufficient measure. This is why in a major way, why the party/ideology that has been on the wrong side of history policy-wise so frequently, and now almost always on the wrong side of the facts, can convince themselves it is they that are the moral paragons, and the sharpest tools in the box despite those many and varied failures.
And if an apathetic, world class liar like Mutt is elected, the responsibility won’t lie with his supporters alone. It’ll be because a “bad” man in many ways had his moral credentials burnished on the alter of “liberal” civility, much as his supporters frequently are.
And the problem is compounded of course, by the continued inability to sell their own competing vision/morality. http://truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/12401-george-lakoff-progressives-need-to-use-language-tha
t-reflects-moral-values That the current rightwingers and what they support are “bad”, imo are made plainly evident by the amount of deception/lying used to sell it, and the license they’ve given their pols and pundits to do so without fear of any reprisal whatsoever.
Mutt seems to be aware of and has been energetically exploiting all of this when CONvenient, which is why he framed FEMA expenditures as “immoral”, no? So who then, are the “immoral” ones behind it? http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=romney%20fema%20immoral&source=web&cd=1&c
ad=rja&ved=0CDEQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fromney-disaster-relief-imm
oral-2012-10&ei=T1SQUPGjNouAygHlmYCwCA&usg=AFQjCNFnBqGRMP7MQPvmusRFNzOM-I9mgw
and “immoral” equals “bad”, no?
And since they’ve successfully turned “liberal” into a dirty word, I guess they are all bad by definition, and therefore without standing to judge the RIGHTeous rightwingers..lol
Here in the heart of Colorado wingnuttia we have a little problem with fire. You may have heard about a nearby event that happened this past summer that wiped out 346 homes.
Unfortunately it seems that our local fire district is heavily dependent on a property tax levy and since the housing boom crashed in 2007-8 home values are way down, foreclosures (hence no prop tax payments) are way up, and they will need to close a fire station unless they can raise the tax levy.
Our local reich wing rugged individualists are really struggling with this. They HATE government subsidies (nevermind that most are on fat military pensions and permanent Tri-Care military insurance) and HATE taxes. They LOVE putting up banners “GOD BLESS OUR FIREFIGHTERS” but at the same time think they are overpaid at $35-40k/year.
The levy will probably pass by a good margin because the fear factor is so strong. But one of the great ironies is that the fire district has been offered a federal grant to cover salaries of several additional firefighters for two years and lots of equipment, but they can’t accept yet because one condition is no layoffs. Probably the levy will pass, the grant will be accepted, and our first class fire district will get even better.
But if these same wingnuts with their FIRE OBAMA signs plastered all over the community get what they hope for – Romney in office, GOP house and senate – the Ryan budget will kill that grant and all the others the fire district receives and the fire district will be asking for an even bigger tax increase next year.
I have no idea how they’ll react to that. Probably blame Obama or Barney Frank. They have no idea where there tax dollars go or who pays for the government stuff they rely on. So angry and full of hatred on political topics that they can’t think straight.
Got one of those here. Navy pension, wife with Navy pension, shops at the commissary all the time, working for US Postal Service and thinks no one (except him and his wife) should have government health insurance (because “he” earned it). Quotes O’Reilly, Limbaugh and Anne Coulter all the time. Never heard him mention one day of work in the private sector, but thinks government can’t produce jobs!!
We have one of those in my FB circles. Had a big argument about it. It seems to be that the military families seem to think that the government only has an obligation to them, and no one else. Anyone else is lazy and doesn’t deserve help.
As the protest rally sign said “Keep your Government Hands off of my Medicare”
Yes, people are really stupid. But the left has ZERO programs for educating the public, in contrast to the massive public propoganda campaigns of the corporate reich wing. We would do MUCH better if people understood where their taxes went and what they received for them. For one, there might be some appreciation for the local benefits of a federal government. But for another, if people realized that half of their federal tax dollars went to the military, and most of the military was dedicated to protecting remote corporate operations that provided no jobs or dollars in the US you might see some serious changes in voting patterns.
And no offense to the moms out there, but military moms on the conservative side (and the ones I interact with are almost always conservative) have an especially high sense of entitlement. They have the gall to complain about how hard it is for them, and how they’re pissed that “their tax dollars” fund whatever program they’re complaining about. Yet these same mothers will not stop until programs for single mothers are eliminated, forgetting that their own salary comes from the damn government.
Here’s what she said (in the context of her complaining that her tax dollars fund Planned Parenthood):
“I’m not sure what can’t be proven scientifically factual but, as you said, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that issue. We also have differing opinions on what services the government should provide. My belief is that government should pay for our military and take care of them. Government should not try to provide healthcare(in my opinion). What the government provides funding for should be far more limited and the people we vote into office will help determine that.”
UHGKHGIHJHH!!!
My friend was all:
“You are right. I can’t believe my tax dollars pay for David’s salary, your healthcare, and all the government subsidizes you receive. Living in the US and paying taxes is a privilege. If everyone in the US had to agree on how taxes were spent, nothing would get done. We have a fantastic military, roads, free public education, etc. Life isn’t bad.”
Perhaps that military mom should be told that SHE has not right to healthcare either as a camp follower, nor her children. And her husband only has a right (as workmen’s comp, if they support that) to treatment for actual battle wounds and injuries on the job, not say cancer.
See what she says to that!
Bonus: If they go by original intent circa 1800, remind her that Napoleonic War disabled veterans and casualties were expected to be cared for by their families or beg in the streets.
Double standards. Always double standards.
I really can’t stand it. Because I’m still anonymous I’ll rant a bit about some of the neighbors I’m friendly with. The retired Air Force colonel who can’t organize his way out of a paper bag, who tried to get the school district superintendent job by saying that all the superindendent did was “set direction”, who sits on volunteer boards and rants all the time about 5 year plans but never actually makes one. He’s exactly what he bitches about all day every day – a leech who lives off of government handouts who can’t get a job to save his life. It’s clear from his stories that he was an awful commanding officer who had a friend who kept promoting him. And no, never within 1000 miles of actual war.
Or the Coast Guard officer who got transferred to Norad and hit his 20 year mark then retired with full pension. Loves to shop and the PX and use the discounted rec facilities at the Air Force Academy. Uses his Coast Guard training to get part-time jobs flying helicopters. Bitches endlessly about freeloaders living off the government. Never came within a whiff of armed conflict.
Or Air Force Colonel #2 … tells great stories about his time in Vietnam. Apparently he was the General’s pet so his job was organizing the USO shows. Met Bob Hope and many other celebrities. Big pension, full medicare, hates government hand outs.
Then there is Air Force Colonel #3. Actually very competent. Receives his 60% pension and full medical benefits and rakes in a VP salary for a local “defense” firm. Staunch Republican.
It just goes on and on. The best welfare program in the world is for US military officers.
This is quite the nice dilemma.
Do you use the compulsory power of the state to hoover up the money via taxes, and then steer it to your particular friends via privatization?
Or do you just skew the tax system so that your general friends pay less and less and keep it all in their pockets, and have the people without the power to buck you pay more and more?
“its help”
Totally off topic.
I’m surprised that I am psyched about my poll watcher assignment next Tuesday. It will be 6:30 am until polls close (7 pm they shut the doors) in a fairly working class district in Colorado Springs. To be honest I’m a little surprised – this district is blanketed in Romney signs and was similarly blanketed with Palin signs in 2008. But it does spread into the area near Colorado College which is just as decidedly pro-Obama.
We have to get trained and credentialed – they have to submit our names in advance so that we are allowed into the facility.
Of course, reading about Wisconsin the Democratic poll watcher materials are all about advocating for people’s right to vote while the manuals of the Reich wing party are all about preventing voting. Have no idea what will happen – I suspect the real fireworks will be in the predominantly Democratic districts but I’ll be ready for anything. Training is Saturday.
This is the kind of volunteer efforts I really get excited about.
Key counties may swing North Carolina’s presidential vote
The counties are Wake (Raleigh-Cary), Forsyth (Winston-Salem), Pitt (Greenville), Watauga (Boone), and Wilson (Wilson).
Any folks in your personal networks in these areas who will turn out to vote for Obama could make a difference. Of course, any votes anywhere in the state have the same impact.
This summer, I was out in the Black Hills. The Black Hills are the wonderful mountainous part of western SD, with Mt. Rushmore, Crazy Horse, mastodon dig, biking trails, and many very small little mountain towns. Very conservative – VERY VERY VERY. That’s the most conservative part of a very conservative state.
We were driving around and saw a volunteer fire station back in the more remote area. Right in front of the fire station was a campaign sign for a REALLY conservative tea party type for the primary:
“Stop Socialism in South Dakota!!”
The juxtaposition was extremely amusing.
Haven’t been to the Black Hills since 1975. Politically sounds like Wyoming. But biking trails? Sounds interesting … do they have shade, unlike Moab?
My BIL and I did 35 miles of the Gunderson Bike trail. Very nice. It is a recovered train railbed, so is beautifully flat, or gradually rising or dropping. We selected a portion in which we had 26 miles of downhill, and 8 miles of climbing, so very pleasant. Did the whole thing in about 3 1/2 hours.
I teach AP US Government and Politics to high schoolers.
Each year I start off with a lecture/discussion on why we have government. The first slide of the presentation presents this thought puzzle: A water hyacinth is growing in a pond. It doubles in size each day. It will cover the pond completely , choking off all fish life in one month. On what day will it cover one half of the pond ?
The answer is the 29th day.
Steven points out the slow moving crisis is the one that gets us every time. When are finally paying attention, finally convinced we must use the power of government to act, it can be too late.
The other way I look at this is to see it as one more expression of the Big Duality. Electrons, positrons. Matter, anti-matter. Balance is built into the architecture, it’s inescapable. So opposition bubbles up wherever there is something to oppose, hence Lenz’s Law, and Newton’s third.
Just because we’re able to see how to build a society that grows its capabilities along with its people, and because as a people we have the skills and wealth to pull it off, wouldn’t you just know that half the population has concerns about this, concerns that don’t seem to stand up to close scrutiny, concerns that seem to mask another set of values, values of self interest, and tribal knee-jerk auto opposition to them that ain’t us.
Good luck with that in the big melting pot.
It’s not like the cosmos worked real hard at creating the opposition. Nevertheless we’re stuck with it.
Good try, Steve D.
You cherry pick arguments for statism, yet ignore arguments for individualism…
Y’all (specifically a Southern Phrase…(I was born in upstate New York, adopted the South as my homeland,)…meant to zexpress our disgust with your statism)…are hanger-on Statists..
States and Governments get their wealth and power from evil libertarian individuals…
Without us, you have nothing…
We are willing to support you if you are fair, and allow us to keep a majority of what we earn…
You have violated that pact…your Statists have enslaved other countries…the United States of America was our last, best Hope…
We’re not going to give up easily…
Game On!!!
What exactly are y’all planning to do, Carpetbagger?
You definitely belong in the South, a place that venerates treason against the government, racism against those of color, a second-class place for women, all the while taking far more money from the Feds than they pay in and extolling rugged individualism.
We should have hung every traitorous member of the Army of Southern Treason in 1865.
Then, I likely would not be here. As it is, I lost two ancestors (that I know of) in the rich man’s war and poor man’s fight–one in the US federal prison camp in Elmira NY.
The South takes in more money from the Feds than it pays in because (1) the South loaded itself with US military bases after World War I (a job creator), (2) more Southerners proportionately have lower incomes because of the lower prevailing wages (because of right to work laws and a still large rural population) and (3) the determined attempt of white folks to educationally handicap minorities did not die with court-ordered desegregation of schools and the development of segregation academies and religious schools has ensured that some whites will be educationally disadvantaged as well. There are a number of non-Southern states trying to catch up with the South’s tradition of maintaining poverty.
Steve D…let’s simplify the argument…evil libertarian capitalists like myself are more than willing to pay for basic infrastructure to facilitate the exchange of goods and services…roads and bridges…Courts…police…national defense, etc..
But if you are intellectually honest, you know that this basic infrastructure costs a fraction of overall Government expenditures…
Individuals got together as a “group” to form the United States of America…
How about China, your hero Thomas Friedman says…
Paper Tiger…just like Nazi Germany…just like the Soviet Union…
Bound for Death…
China…talk about one percent!…have you seem the net worth of the top Politburo!!! Talk about inequality!!
Individuals existed prior to, and supersede, the state…
Keep hangin, Statists!
If’n y’all were intellectually honest, y’all would know that education and healthcare are part of the infrastructure you depend on.
Paid For By Whom?
Where does the money come from?
Wealth was created long before and hospitals existed…
Check your premises… What is wealth, and where does it come from…
Should have read, “schools and hospitals”…
Wealth (goods and services, perhaps a hut and a garden and spears to hunt) came before schools and hospitals…wealth always comes first…it pays for stuff…
Wealth never happens in a vacuum. If that were the case, we would still be “wealthy” hunter-gathers. Wealth , impressive accumulation of wealth, is only possible because of what government and the infrastructure it creates provide. Try being “wealthy” on a desert island ,cut off from that infrastructure and see what happens.
As for who pays for it or should pay for it, the answer is all of us. Those who benefit most simply should pay their fair share which is more than those who are living on the margins.
Nobody is against wealth, we are against wealthy folks who think they did it all by themselves. Romney is a prefect example of that attitude. He really believes that he did it all by himself in spite of the enormous advantages given to him by the lottery of birth.
So , if you are wealthy , power to you. Realize that your prosperity is bound bone and sinew with ours and depends specifically on the institutions and infrastructure we all pay for and use, only some more than others.
Tarheel…at least you respond, vs. the other cowards here!!!
You get ignored because you fundamentally do not concede points or try to find common ground. You just spew talking points.
You get ignored because if you really believed in those lofty libertarian principles you espouse you would find the prospect of a Romney-Ryan administration appalling.
You get ignored because you are perceived as essentially trolling to hit a nerve, for the lulz, and not really interested in a serious political conversation about how to get this country out of the mess thirty years of Republican and New Democrat policies have put it in.
You get ignored for the hyperbole of calling Obama’s policies “socialist” or “statist” and painting the folks on this site as statist sympathizers, hero worshippers of China, and fans of Tom Friedman, which few here are.
I responded to your fake Southernized philosophy. Honest-to-God native Southerners have far more diverse views than the Yankees who move to the suburbs of Southern cities to seek their fortunes and “go native” to indulge their prejudices ever recognize.
~Thomas Paine
Sandy has reintroduced Climate Change to the conversation this week. For the last year it has fall entirely off the radar screen and now MSM is sticking their toe in the water, talking stats and reminding people of not just the ice caps melting but the number of weather related catastophes we’ve seen just this year alone.
The hard core religious seem to have struck a chord and now people are reacting with less affiliation with churches and a growing population of self proclaimed atheists.
Pro lifers went so overboard in this Congress that finally the populus noticed and the backlash has been a thing of beauty.
Gay rights have finally finally finally turned a corner for the better.
Romney finally told a lie so brazenly (the Jeep to China story) that even Politico had to call foul.
So I’m not so sure that we’re all that conflicted rather that we are turning a corner. That sounds hokey when I type it but Sandy has pulled Americans together again in a way that we just haven’t seen in a long long time.
What’s rather remarkable is that Obama has been successful both from a wealth-generating/individualist perspective and from a communitarian perspective (putting competent people in positions of power – no horse association commissioners running FEMA), and yet you would never know it from the buffoons on the right. It’s surprising that so few listen to their non-partisan 401k’s, but then what we’re seeing is more a tribal movement than one based on reason.
What’s truly remarkable is that no one on this blog has either the testicular, or perhaps ovarian, fortitude to argue your “Progressive” philosophy woman to woman, or man to man, or woman to man, or man to woman!!!
Nut up (Ovary Up?), Progs!!!
Pitiful…I’ve sworn off the frog pond after November 6th…can’t you be Men and Women between now and then??
After all, y’all, my wife has bigger balls than me!!!
Married Women Rule!!! And Vote Republican!!
What’s the argument, that Property comes before Laws? Thanks for the Philosophy 101. It has no bearing as far as I can see on anything in this thread (in that sense, it’s about as useful as a can of baked beans at a Romney “relief” rally in Ohio), and there is no reason that individual and communitarian values cannot coexist. I would think that electing a moron as President would be destructive of both – see Bush II – as my own finances can attest, and so I’m baffled why anyone would support Romney, but that’s just me.
Of course individual and communitarian values can coexist…but what happens if representative of one set of values attempts to enslave representatives of the other set of values?
Can they coexist then?
Nah. I’m pretty sure we’re just tired of you.
Have another drink.
Of course your tired of “me”…your tired of arguing on behalf of a false philosophy that rests upon a false premise…
Politicaly, You argue for the supremacy of the state over the supremacy of the individuals…
Metaphysically, you argue for the supremacy of matter over consciousness…
Your argument is untenable…
That’s why you’re tired of “me”…a losing football team is “tired” of if’s opponent when the opponent is superior and is leading in the fourth quarter…
When did the choices become state slavery vs Randian individualism? When you can riddle me this, the conversation can continue.
I should point out that the kind of “individualism” you seem to be advocating is suicidal for a society. Check out any of the Great Economic crashes. Whatever blame you can attempt to lay at the feet of government, you cannot escape the fact that it was individuals doing their individual thing without regard to its impact on the larger society that finally crashed the economy. The only protection against that is reasonable and persistent regulation of such behavior.
Only governments can do that kind of work. If you say, well markets will correct themselves, you are right. But innocent people literally die and their lives are destroyed waiting for that to happen. No civilized society should stand idly by and let this happen.
On top of everything else it destroys wealth and sometimes the wealthy themselves are caught in the undertow.
I’m not advocating “Randian” individualism…
I have NO problem with the “Rich” providing for a BASIC standard of living for the “Poor” who are “Poor” through no fault of their own…
That is NOT what is happening now….
What?! Obama’s wealth-creating, individualist perspective?
Based on 401k’s??
That wealth is as “real” as your Real Estate bubble in 2006…asset bubble based on Bernanke’s money printing…it wil burst…
You are like someone bragging about how George W. Bush made you rich in 2006 because you bought a house for 110,000 and “flipped” it for 300,000…
You ignoramuses look for “get rich quick” schemes like every other human being on this planet…equity values did not go from 8k in Maech, 2009, to 13k now anymore than true home values increased from 190k in 2000 to 280k in 2006…
Study History Progs!!’…only Governments create artificial wealth, asset bubbles, and Recessions!
Wake Up!!
Or, to quote Arthur Gilroy, Wake The Fuck Up!!!
To quote Alanis Morissette…Isn’t Ironic!!