Last night Rachel Maddow had her first segment discuss a white paper that discusses the administration’s legal justification for killing people, including Americans, without trial, by executive fiat, if you will. For while President Obama ended the use of torture on his first day in office, for years the administration hid the legal grounds for suing our military to kill suspected terrorists primarily using automated drones.
Last year, Secretary Holder, finally addressed the issue, claiming the President employed a three part test before issuing an order to the military or CIA to “kill a U.S. citizen who poses a terrorist threat.”
Holder outlined a three-part test for determining when a targeted killing against a U.S. citizen is legal. He said the government must determine after careful review that the citizen poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the U.S., capture is not feasible and the killing would be consistent with laws of war. […]
Holder rejected the suggestion that the Constitution’s due-process protections require permission from a federal court before taking lethal action.
“The unfortunate reality is that our nation will likely continue to face terrorist threats that at times originate with our own citizens,” Holder said. “When such individuals take up arms, … plotting attacks designed to kill their fellow Americans, there may be only one realistic and appropriate response.”
The administration has never released the alleged memorandum that stands behind the claim the these actions are not illegal under existing law. However, NBC reporter, Michael Isikoff, has obtained a 15 page “white paper” that discusses the administration’s legal basis for these killings (the document can be found online here. The implications it reveals, not only for the current use of drones and other military operations to kill Americans, is very troubling, the moreso when one realizes that future administrations may consider it as precedent for expanding the power of the executive branch’s use of the military to act as the proverbial “judge, jury and executioner” despite the provisions in our constitution (primarily Article III and the fourth, fifth and sixth amendments) that require due process and prohibit one branch of the government from acting unilaterally to deprive “persons” of their right to life.
How so? Consider that the term “imminent threat” the first prong of the administration’s test stands the term imminent on its head.
“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.
Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”
The use of language such as this leaves the door wide open for interpretation. What activities are included? Does writing a manifesto calling for violent action meet the standard? And what is the meaning of “recent” under this test> We simply don’t know. As for the claim that “no evidence” exists that said person has renounced or abandoned these activities, well, how easy is it to for an “informed, high level official” (and how many people fall within that category?) to claim he or she have no evidence of any renunciation by the proposed “target?” That is no burden at all, in my view.
The problem with re-defining the words “imminent threat” and “activities posing a threat of a violent attack” so vaguely is that it opens the door to future Presidents expanding this power to include anyone they determine poses a threat, not just Islamist terrorists. Even those of us here who frequently document and warn of the threat of domestic terrorism from the right do not extend to the government the right to unilaterally kill such individuals without providing them with a trial and appeals through access to our justice system. Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski and Eric Rudolph all received fair trials at which they were represented by counsel. We certainly hope that the Obama administration is exercising its power to kill Americans without arresting them first by employing the most exacting, restrictive definition of these terms but we have no way of knowing that. For the administration has kept the process under which these decisions are made secret and only gave members of the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary Committees this white paper summary of its legal justification for last summer.
[T]he white paper was represented by administration officials as a policy document that closely mirrors the arguments of classified memos on targeted killings by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides authoritative legal advice to the president and all executive branch agencies. The administration has refused to turn over to Congress or release those memos publicly — or even publicly confirm their existence.
This is essentially the claim of power by the executive branch under a Democratic President that was made by the Bush administration to employ torture, i.e., the power of a unitary executive to act in certain matters without any review by the courts of its actions. The white paper does not list the laws or legal theories on which the Obama administration has relied and presumably continues to rely upon to justify these killings, though it hints at some of them by referring to “conducting operations in a manner consistent with applicable principles of war.” Now that’s a finely tuned phrase if I ever read one, as well.
The white paper refers to the armed conflict with “Al Quaida,” a stateless enemy’ but it does not restrict its interpretation of its power based on that alleged conflict. It specifically says that it has the power to override a US Citizen’s right to due process under the Constitution and kill him or her without arrest or trial if it determines, under its sole discretion, that the need to protect the country is great enough. I quote the paper directly here:
Were the target of a lethal operation a US citizen who may have rights under the Due Process Clause and the Fourth Amendment, that individual’s citizenship would not immunize him from a lethal operation. … That interest must be balanced against the United States’ interest in forestalling the threat of violence or death … by one who is engaged in plotting against the United States.
That is a broad and bold claim, particularly when one considers that what the administration defines as an imminent threat is so open to interpretation as to be essentially meaningless. President Bush justified his wars against Afghanistan and Iraq on the same claim of an imminent threat. One can argue the legitimacy of that case with respect to Afghanistan, but with Iraq? Imminence as defined by the “principles of war” referred to in this paper has always previous meant the threat of an impending, immediate attack on the sovereign territory or citizens of a nation state. Now it appears imminence is whatever the current occupant of the White House and his advisers and the military leadership claim it to be. These are dangerous waters to be sailing into.
We already know that thousands of individuals, many of them innocent civilians, were tortured and abused by the Bush administration under its determination of what constituted an imminent threat. Likewise, thousands of innocent civilians have been killed in US drone strikes because of faulty intelligence on simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. All of these atrocities have been justified as the unfortunate consequences of war, in this case the war on terror, or as the Obama administration has framed it, the threat of terrorism.
The ultimate issue at stake isn’t whether “terrorist threats” originating overseas justifies the actions taken by the last two President of the United States. The ultimate issue is one that we may face in the future: the use of force unilaterally by one branch of the government against anyone, anywhere, US citizen or not, which it determines poses a threat to the United States. In essence, it is the danger of the Executive Branch becoming the sole arbiter of who lives or dies based on a unilateral decision that is not reviewable by the Courts, nor expressly authorized by Congress. We may believe we can trust President Obama and his administration to make those decisions wisely. However, the overriding question that President Obama’s policy reveals is whether we should allow any President and any administration, now or in the future, to claim, much less exercise such unrestrained and broad power, i.e., the power to determine when Constitutional prohibitions against the use of executive authority, and/or the rejection of individual rights guaranteed by that same Constitution, as amended, do not apply when it comes to the taking of human lives.
I watched the segment too. I came away with the impression that I was listening to Glenn Greenwald. Tell me, Booman. What would you do to keep the country safe and avoid the excessive power of the executive branch? How much review? How much urgency is needed? In whose hands should these decisions be made? Congress? A panel of judges in secret? What’s the solution you would propose?
The truth is we have to be willing to let some blood be spilled by terrorists to keep our freedoms and prevent government over reach. There is no branch of government that can be considered trust worthy in these situations. Which is why we (till Obama) do not try people in secret courts and hand out summary judgements, the risk is just too great.
I’ve considered the most likely result of such an action occurring on this President’s watch, and I daresay that between the NeoConfederates, Blew Dogs, and the FerengiMedia, keeping our freedoms is probably the least likely outcome.
Well, I’m not Booman, but I certainly believe that we are not at war. What followed 9/11 was the rise of a resurgent national security state not seen since the days of the Cold War. Considering the nature of the threat, I find it has been used as an excuse for extra-constitutional actions we would never have accepted in an earlier time. Maybe you find the atriocities of Iraq and the use of drones against citizens of other countries without the express permission of thoer governments acceptable. Perhaps you believe the gross injustices committed at Guantanamo Bay a small price to pay for a little security. I do not
That said, I am thinking primarily of the long term expansion of these powers by future presidents. The white paper itself, though it wraps itself in the term “Al Qaida” is not strictly limited to “lethal operations” against known Islamist terrorist groups, who have managed to do little other than to inspire two massive and costly (both in terms of money wasted and lives lost) American wars in the middle east. Indeed, that is anything is Bin Ladin’s legacy – the overreaction and exploitation of 911 by the US government and the military industrial complex. The actual threat posed by Islamist militants has been contained, and was never as dangerous as we were led to believe. Yet now all our communications are subject to warrantless surveillance. Americans can and have been subjected to torture and death, the FBI runs sting operations to entrap a few gullible Muslim young men and the fourth, fifth and sixth amendments (not to mention the first on all too many occasions) have been essentially discarded by two presidents in succession, whenever they felt it inconvenient.
I suspect that we will always be at war with unnamed terrorists henceforth, and future presidents now have the example that they can do literally anything as long as their actions can be cloaked in as serving the vague purpose of combating phrase terrorist threats and enhancing our national security. Ask any Muslim in America how safe they feel and then consider what if some future president with even lees scruples should decide to expand his enemies list to encompass you and yours.
Well, I’m not Booman, but I certainly believe that we are not at war.
That’s not your call. The Constitution gives the authority to make that determination to Congress, and they don’t agree with you.
The white paper itself, though it wraps itself in the term “Al Qaida” is not strictly limited to “lethal operations” against known Islamist terrorist groups
Did you read the white paper?
“It concludes that where certain conditions are met, a lethal operation against an operational commander of al Qaeda or an associated forces – …an enemy force with which the United States is in a congressionally authorized armed conflict – and who himself poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States, would not violate the Constitution.”
Not only does this legal reasoning not apply beyond “known Islamist terrorist groups,” it does not even apply to most “known Islamist terrorist groups.” It only applies to those parties against whom Congress has authorized war, and it explicitly tells us this in black and white.
It is time that we debunked the “imminent” threat rationale for executive (military) power grabs that occurred after World War II and were rooted in the PTSD from Pearl Harbor.
Nuclear conflict during the Cold War never presented the occasion for a pre-emptive strike based on a suddenly appearing “imminent” threat. Thank goodness. This hypethetical worst case-scenario drives departure from Constitutional rule based on Congressional war powers, presents the rationale for a peacetime standing army, and leads to imperial misadventures.
The same is true about the use of drones in Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia. There has been no documentation of the imminent threat that these addressed, not because there were issues about operations and methods, but because there was indeed no imminent threat to the US. When the truth finally gets out, it will likely be determined that it was more convenient to use a drone to kill someone on suspicion than to do the intelligence necessary to establish a threat and conduct an operation to capture.
The Constitution establishes a due process that involves all three branches of government: the legislative to define the process in the light of public scrutiny, the executive to carry out the process, and the judiciary to review the executive’s work and the legislation. Since World War II, almost every executive has tried to bypass this division of powers by using the idea of “imminent threats” that require immediate decision by Caesar.
Add to the power over life and death of some nameless folks in the executive (or the President himself, we don’t know who decides finally) and the slippery doctrine that Bush introduced of “enemy combatants” that are neither under US law or international law. What you get is an executive assertion that the executive can assassinate anyone based solely on the executive’s say-so. That is unreasonable power even when used prudently. “Trust us” rarely produces justice.
The important thing to note about the white paper is that it is in response to the twelfth request from Sen. Wyden for the original memos authorizing the attacks on al Awlaki, a US citizen. emptywheel’s analysis is that there are at least memos from DOJ for the CIA and for DoD, and maybe other memos. And each of those might have different legal justifications for those agency’s actions.
And the white paper released has a huge exception for Pakistan.
The fact that they look forward instead of having been done prior to actual drone attacks means that there likely have been some actions contrary to international law.
As this controversy heats up, be especially wary of the weasel words “laws of war”. The public needs to understand which specific elements of international law the US government is claiming as authorization.
If Obama and Holder continue the current policy of stonewalling on this issue, it conceivably could be an issue that weakens Democrats in 2016. It could be the scandal that history remembers about the Obama administration. It is that serious an issue.
I am a huge Obama supporter, but I am angry and very concerned about the insane lack of accountability and balance of powers here. Unfortunately, I don’t believe enough Americans have identified this as a bottom-line issue, and Republicans are too wed to the security state and need to be “tough on terrorists” to make this issue one for which Congress would pursue an impeachment or even a major Congressional inquiry.
A big issue making it difficult to gather public interest behind the issue is that the Executive will be determined to treat Congressional investigations of the issue as ones which involve classified information, which means that all Committee meetings would need to happen in closed session, and the members of Congress in that closed session would be barred from verbally discussing “operational details” from the closed hearings or share documents gained at the meeting. This is positively Kafkaesque and entirely unacceptable, but it could hold sway, preventing the release of information that would rally a larger public demand for change.
Perhaps we would need a brave member of Congress to break the “law”, but that word is a bit debased by these circumstances. Still, people who gain Congressional seats do not typically have the personalities of organizers who are willing to behave in acts of civil disobedience when it appears necessary. The potential punishment for revealing classified information could also be extremely harsh, making such a decision additionally difficult.
One thing I’ve got to highlight here is the prepostorous logical leaps DOJ casually demands that we accept here. From Holder’s speech:
“When such individuals take up arms, … plotting attacks designed to kill their fellow Americans, there may be only one realistic and appropriate response.”
In this sentence, look at how much is hung on the phrase “may be”. Who decides when “may be” turns into the “is” which would gather Americans in support for a particular killing of a person who is an undeniable, imminent threat? From yesterday’s white paper release, it is clear that the Administration’s self-drawn latitude for action here is far too broad. In fact, it is unlikely that they believe that the standards required for their extrajudicial killings need to meet the “is” standard.
But even at that unacceptable level, who decides when irrefutable proof of “may be” has been gathered? There are lots of things which are best placed in the hands of unelected bureaucrats, but the State’s ability to decide to kill people should not- in my view, cannot- be placed in the hands of perhaps a single senior staffer, unacountable to any other check or balance at all.
That brave member of Congress can’t break the law if the executive is not responsive to its requests for documents for oversight.
It looks like giving Isikoff the white paper was a limited hangout. We’re supposed to focus on the “imminent” part and forget about actually seeing the real memos.
Might have something to do with trying to avoid a Wyden-led filibuster of Chuck Hagel. Notice how John McCain all of a sudden supports Hagel.
If this is a limited hangout, it’s one of the least effective ones I’ve ever seen. The defining down of “imminent” in this White Paper is among its most horrifying features.
Makes one wonder what’s in the actual authorization memos to DoD and CIA.
I don’t get this. Why?
Do you not think the justification in this memo is the same one as in the original memos?
I think that the devil’s in the details of the supposed “disposition matrix” and that the relevant Congressional Intelligence Committees should have a look at those to review them. My suspicion is that they allow for assassinations of convenience instead of actual imminent threat. And do not constitute reasonable due process. Sen. Ron Wyden seems to be concerned about something.
Sen. Ron Wyden seems to be concerned about something.
I think a generalized belief in the importance of oversight, especially on life-and-death matters like this, is more than adequate to account for Wyden’s desire to have more oversight.
Whatever your individualq opinion, the notion that anything in this memo is going to cause even the slightest political problem for the administration or CIA is science fiction.
I remember similar fretting after the bin Laden raid. Oh my goodness, is it war crime? They didn’t even tell him to surrender first! This opens up all sorts of cans of worms for the administration.
What actually happened was, he used the raid in his campaign ads.
It should be noted that the “imminent” word was already made a little “fuzzy” by Bush with his “preemptive war” doctrine. The Iraq AUMF, based on the War Powers Act of 1973, required a tad bit more evidence of an “imminent” threat than ever materialized, as was (made fuzzy that is) the boundaries of exec authority since he used that as justification for ignoring the two conditions underwhich that AUMF was to be “executed”.
The use of “imminent” in the WPA applies to situations in which Congress has not, at that time, invoked its war powers.
Its use in this document refers to a situation in which Congress has invoked its war powers against a force to which the target belongs.
Of course the standards are different for those two situations.
While I’m glad some of the decision making is out of the shadows, and I’ll look at the white paper this evening, I would like to point out this is not a new thing.
Wanted dead or alive
Shoot on sight
Public enemy #1
All applied to US citizens, without trial or in absentia, againt criminals deemed too dangerous to attempt to capture.
What is differnt now is that its an Executive action done far from the US instead of Judicial action done within US borders.
If the same standard is to be applied against would be ‘terrorists’, then perhaps a judicial instrument(warrant) should also be issued agsint them and then any action to capture or kill could be covered by that fig leaf.
And let’s be clear, its a fig leaf. If the Govt wants you dead, you are dead. Ask –
William Bonney
George Nelson
John Dillinger
Bonnie and Clyde
The SLA
The Move
David Koresh
(just to name a few)
So let’s have this debate, but don’t fall on the fainting couch over it.
Ridge
What is different is that it is an extra-judicial action.
TarHeel – You don’t know that for sure. There could be some secret court that has been empaneled for that purpose.
Secret courts IMHO are extra-judicial in a democracy.
Well, I always have respected your knowledge as expressed on this site. So, as I asked at the start, given that there are people (some Americans) who certainly intend harm in a terrorist sort of way — what would you find acceptable as a way to deal with them? Especially in foreign countries?
A judicial fig leaf would be easy enough to get in a friendly Fed court, but going to “open court” might reveal sources and methods. A secret court like the FISA court might be too much for some to swallow even though it would handing out arrest warrants that would essentially be death warrants.
All this needs to be discussed in out in the public. I just wanted to remind everyone this is not a new development in US history.
R
There are limits to power. There are some people we cannot kill, even if we really really want to. There are some bad guys who will get away. There are some bad thing that will happen. We must do as much as we can do, legally, without compromising, too much, who we are.
We already have tremendous power to kill people–including innocent people, including children–all over the world. We already use this power, regularly and without any political cost.
I think your question is very on point. An American who intends to harm us in a terrorist way: can the president and the president’s advisors decide to simply kill him? If he’s in Islamabad? If he’s in Toronto? What does ‘intent’ mean? Who gets to decide? If there any person overseas whom they cannot decide to kill, if they decide that citizen presents a threat? Why just terrorist threats? If the leader of a foreign state is overtly planning to harm the US, why is that foreign citizen afforded more protections than an American citizen?
The memo does not restrict the battlefield to overseas nor the target to non-Americans. And there is this now too minor matter of the US Bill of Rights.
So why be secret about it? Convict them in absentia, sentence them to death, put a $1000000 reward for their heads outside the US and $2000000 for their living bodies inside the US.
Make their trials public circuses and open to the public and media. These are American citizens (presumably) and as such, these convictions will hold up under foreign and domestic scrutiny.
Maybe that’s the rub. “Methods and operations” is a convenient excuse for “we really don’t have evidence that will stand up in court because it was obtained illegally”.
All the more reason to do it in the open.
Yeah, anegadagino’s wish to dispense with merely one part of this issue by claiming “oh, maybe there’s some unaccountable secret court” is rather pathetic. One, there’s no evidence of a court- what if there’s not one? Sounds like you’re conceding that there should be, yet you want to move on. Two, such a court would still be violative of governing principles for a free people.
‘Cause here’s the question: how will this system register accountability for people who make mistakes and kill the wrong people, whether those people are the intended targets or collateral? You can’t bring the dead people back, which is the chief accountability problem, but how about the person or persons who decided an American citizen must be killed without a trial? How are they held responsible for the murder of an innocent American?
It’s hard enough to gain accountability for prosecutors and law enforcement officers who are found to have acted improperly in the execution of an innocent in the public justice system, but this brings on the ability for unaccountable people to be judge/jury/executioner, which we find unacceptable (and laughably so) when other countries do it.
Centerfielddj — I’m not dismissing anything and moving on. I’m just pointing out that it’s easy to criticize without offering an alternative. What should a government do when it believes it knows that someone, somewhere inaccessible, is plotting against America or our interests (also pretty broad)? This is the classic argument about whether we should respond to terror after the fact or preemptively. I do believe there are bad actors out there. I believe we have a right to stop them before they do their damage. Question: How do we do that, legally, in your opinion? How do we justify any action? I posed the possibility that there might be some kind of secret court about which we know nothing — and that might not be covered in the white paper.
It’s the scary hypotheticals that drive this because our government has not come to terms with the fact that they had the intelligence to prevent 9/11 and did not act on it.
And ignoring the fact that the billions of dollars in TSA screening and security theater have not prevented one incident.
So if we have sufficient intelligence to identify imminent threats, how come we missed the Undiebomber?
The alternative is to deal with the international politics so as to dial back the threat of terrorism. We used to be damn good at that in the US before we got so internationally arrogant.
What we know is that there is at a minimum a secret “disposition matrix” – a decision tree procedure for identifying the criteria involved in decisions regarding orders of assassination. John Brennan, bless his pea-picking heart, let that one slip. Does that disposition matrix ask the right questions? Congressional intelligence committees are not being allowed to know.
It’s when the administration is not allowing the Congressional intelligence committees oversight that one should worry. That means they think they’re the smartest guys in the room. And typically that means a disaster waiting to happen.
The fact that there is no evidence of a secret court makes the suggestion meaningless as a defense. In this way, it is not far off from the evidence-free assertion that American Citizen X was a material supporter of the organization targeted by current war powers and was assisting a specific plot to kill and maim Americans. I care for much of what is evident to me about Obama’s reasonings. Even with that, I am unwilling to give him and all who work under him such broad powers.
The barrier in constructing an alternative plan of action to these killings which would also respect our national security is that the Executive is unwilling to lay out the choice at all. They are keeping the facts of the choice hidden, and all other branches of govrnment representing us are barred from participation in solving these very difficult questions.
Finally, these killings, though relatively uncommon, are proving to be very consequential to our relations with people in other nations. Does the President sign off on each of these attacks, or can an unidentified (to us) senior staffer make the call when operational needs “require” it? You don’t know, and neither do I.
And if you knew, would you be satisfied? If you found outk, for instance, that the Senate Intelligence committee OK’d this policy, would that be better? Or would you feel you needed some greater level of knowledge or approval?
In Congress, I also want the Senate Judiciary Committee to provide oversight. The House might also be worth consulting. I’ll note that nine members of the Senate Judiciary and Intelligence Committees are not satisfied by what the President’s Administration has revealed so far. They wrote a letter dated yesterday demanding fuller information about the Administration’s claimed authority to unilaterally kill Americans.
The Judiciary itself also needs the information necessary to make judgements based on sound legal and Constitutional reasoning. Right now, DOJ is claiming “that the Department notes that under the circumstances described in this paper, there exists no appropriate judicial forum to evaluate these constitutional considerations.” So, literaly no oversight for them!
What is different is that it is an extra-judicial action.
All force carried out in accordance with a Congressional war authorization is extra-judicial.
The Battle of the Coral Sea? Totally extra-judicial.
FYI, here is a FB status I put up for my diverse friends.
I have said all along that if Obama gets impeached, this will be the issue the republicans use.
Of course it is illegal. The POTUS cannot, on his own, choose who lives and dies because of a future threat. Then there is innocent bystanders.
It’s like getting in a discussion about what type of torture is permitted. It’s a waste of time, and is exactly the discussion the torturers want.
Which is why the President must walk this policy back now and quickly. He’s already in trouble with the assassination of al-Awlaki and his son. It’s the memos authorizing that action that Sen. Wyden and others in the Senate want to see.
And it would also be helpful to withdraw John Brennan’s nomination for CIA Director (if that does not imperil the President’s safety).
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Obama needs to work the “dark side” to counteract not only Israel but also Saudi Arabia. New appointment as Saudi intelligence chief for its Mabahith. Read my earlier comment about Prince Bandar bin Sultan and Saudi leadership for Mujahideen in Syria.
Comment from my earlier diary – POTUS Names John Brennan and Chuck Hagel to Cabinet Posts. Obama needs Brennan to get his back. I believe Obama is under permanent threat, a reason to limit his travel abroad.
Nobody ‘needs’ to walk the ‘dark side’. They choose to because it is easier than doing the hard work of building cases.
Besides, the phrase ‘dark side’ is sort of offensive. It implies that you have to go places your opponents live, and use their methods, and of course they are where it is ‘dark’, because they are evil. It’s sort of dehumanizing.
And it ignores collateral damage to innocents. Booman is the past has claimed (without evidence IMO) the collateral deaths are actually very small, particularly when compared to airstrikes. But one incident where a child dies is one too many, and each is a war crime.
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Similar to the presence dark matter in the universe, there exists an universal dark side with most states on earth. JFK was assassinated by a conspiracy of evil, not a lone gunman. It’s best for President Obama to have John Brennan as head of the CIA to cover his back as evil is ever present and spread during the Republican reign of George Bush. The lunatics are ever present on the extreme right-wing in America. The activities of intelligence agencies I consider the dark side, not necessarily evil in all its acts. The money Congress allocates to covert, clandestine action serves the dark side. You may not like it, but it’s reality.
Nobody ‘needs’ to walk the ‘dark side’. They choose to because it is easier than doing the hard work of building cases.
This isn’t true. Building a case against Awlaki would have been trivially easy. He made videos declaring himself to be an al Qaeda operative. The underwear bomber identified him as an operational director of the plot to blow up an airliner full of civilians on Christmas Day. He has already been convicted in absentia in Yemen.
It was getting our hands on the bastard that was the problem. He was operating in a remote area that was controlled by a hostile armed force. You think drone strikes produce a lot of collateral damage? Think about a Black Hawk Down snatch and grab operation in an area controlled by an armed militia.
He was also involved in Fort Hood.
He was involved in Fort Hood in the sense that he was the imam at the mosque the attacker attended in Northern Virginia and posted an attaboy blog after the fact.
It’s too late. He has already committed crimes against humanity, so he is at the mercy of republicans right now.
He should stop because it is wrong.
Nonsense. If the Republicans tried to impeach him on this basis, their only support would come from Greenwald and the far left. After turning a blind eye to torture, they would be laughed out of town by the common man and woman.
My take on all of this is that I trust Obama to use these powers wisely; however, I do not necessarily trust those who come later. That’s the danger of these policies. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus. Perhaps this will be the blotch on Obama’s legacy.
The POTUS cannot, on his own, choose who lives and dies because of a future threat.
Of course he can’t. As this memo makes clear, he can only make that decision in accordance with Congress invoking its war powers against the target:
“It concludes that where certain conditions are met, a lethal operation against an operational commander of al Qaeda or an associated forces – …an enemy force with which the United States is in a congressionally authorized armed conflict – and who himself poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States, would not violate the Constitution.”
by executive fiat, if you will.
I won’t.
As the title of the memo makes clear, these are strikes against the parties that CONGRESS authorized the executive to use force against in the September 20, 2001 AUMF. None of this is being done “by executive fiat,” but in accordance with authority granted by the legislature. This administration has never claimed the power to conduct these operations “by executive fiat,” and departed from the Bush administration in abandoning the claim that it could do so under the Commander in Chief power.
All countries kill enemies of the state in secret. The CIA has done it for years and often with good effect in terms of national security.
US citizen plotting against the nation on foreign soil is only a little more problematic. The penalty for treason has always been death.
US citizens on US soil is a lot more problematic constitutionally. IMO it must have some judicial review even if it is in closed secret court. And I don’t think today we would tolerate assassination without trial of people like Dillinger no matter how may cops he killed on sight.
Of serious concern is revealing too much about what our intelligence knows and how they know it.
Innocent bystanders being harmed or killed is a serious concern and to be avoided if for no other reason that politically and diplomatically it is ikely to harm our strategic interests. And then there is the morality of it.
I also don’t think bringing in examples of Branch Davidians, Ruby Ridge, Move , etc are helpful to the discussion. One, those were not done by executive order, two law enforcement people were threatened at points in the conflict, and three it is pretty well accepted by the government that those were handled incorrectly. People got fired and/or policies and procedures were changed.
Unfortunately, as a nation we need some sort of policy like this. And we would rather not be too public about it. But ultimately, the president has to feel accountable to scrutiny should things become public and willing to deal with the wrath of the voting public and history.
Bush applied pretty poor judgement and will pay the price. Obama’s use of drones is obviously not universally popular but it has arguably proven a better option in dealing with the Pakistani government than others that were tried (like funding corruption as Bush did in hopes they would do the right thing). History will judge it ultimately.
Nicely said Andrew.
I suspect not everyone will agree 🙂
Very true. That’s why I wanted you to know that some do.
I agree! Well said, Andrew.
How do we know that the CIA has done it with good effect for national security?
All of this discussion is as if plotting and “enemies” is not a matter of domestic or international politics and not subject to political solutions.
It is the declaration of who is an enemy of the state outside a state of war that has been problematic since World War II and has devolved power from Congress to the executive.
The seems to be too much spy vs. spy inside baseball talk about this issue and too little examination from a political and constitutional view so that we get out of endless war and erosion of civil liberties in the name of national security.
This approach to dealing with national security is now a cancer at the heart of the Obama administration. The tumor appeared under Bush but has metastasized under Obama. He must walk this back.
And IMO must consider the entire frame of institutions intended to protect US national security. The institutional imperatives of DoD, CIA and other agencies are driving general government far too much.
It is the declaration of who is an enemy of the state outside a state of war that has been problematic since World War II and has devolved power from Congress to the executive.
Fortunately, as this memo makes clear, this declaration only applies within a state of war that has been declared by Congress.
First of all, it is a white paper to Congress and not an instruction to the relevant agencies, which is what Congress asked for.
Second, although it mentions al Qua’ida multiple times, it does not explicitly define the boundaries of that designation in terms of the AUMF.
Third, the AUMF either was not a declaration of war, which would have required the folks at Guantanamo to be considered prisoners-of-war under the Geneva Conventions instead of “enemy combatants”, or it is a declaration of war without end. There are no clear conditions that determine when a state of war with al Qua’ida no longer exists. Which allows other groups unrelated to Usama bin Laden’s organization to suddenly be reclassified as al Qua’ida. That elasticity is very problematical.
Finally, Truman asserted the power of the President to engage in war because of imminent danger. This memo asserts the power of the President to assassinate (contrary to explicit US law) any individual on suspicion because of imminent danger.
First of all, it is a white paper to Congress and not an instruction to the relevant agencies, which is what Congress asked for.
And this has what, exactly, to do with the constitutionality of the doctrine set forth?
Second, although it mentions al Qua’ida multiple times, it does not explicitly define the boundaries of that designation in terms of the AUMF.
Yes, it does. I’ve quoted the language from the memo multiple times on this thread already.
Third, the AUMF either was not a declaration of war
Under both American and international law, yes, it is. It produces exactly the same legal state of war. The only legal difference between an AUMF and an old-fashioned war declaration is that an AUMF gives the President the option of not initiating force.
or it is a declaration of war without end…That elasticity is very problematical.
As a policy matter, I think the AUMF is too open-ended, too. This doesn’t really have anything to do with the legal question here.
This memo asserts the power of the President to assassinate (contrary to explicit US law) any individual on suspicionbecause of imminent danger.
False. I have quoted the passage that proves this statement wrong over and over again.
You also invented, out of whole cloth, the part in parenthesis. This memo does not assert the power to do anything that is against the law. It makes an argument about what is allowed under the law.
It is an attempt to dodge the law. The classic “Mr. Attorney don’t tell me what I can’t do; tell me how to do what I want to do.”
It is an attempt to dodge the law.
Congress’s passage of a war powers resolution is “the law” every bit as much as the legal ban on assassinations. Passing a law is not dodging the law.
All you need to convert the narrow limits of the AUMF to “any individual” is plausible intelligence that said individual is an imminent threat under the definitions of the AUMF. We’ve never had bad intelligence that led to catastrophe, have we?
The AUMF doesn’t authorize force against any old “imminent threat,” but only against al Qaeda and affiliated groups.
We’ve never had bad intelligence that led to catastrophe, have we?
Similarly, we’ve certainly never had ignored intelligence that led to catastrophe, have we?
How do we know? It was secret, so we don’t know.
But we know that spy vs. spy happened and still happens and we know of instances when it didn’t turn out so well and it became public.
It is beyond belief that it has never been done “well” and with the intended outcomes. The Cold War did end without either side launching anything after all and some, but not all proxie wars were avoided.
“All countries kill enemies of the state in secret. The CIA has done it for years and often with good effect in terms of national security.”
Andrew, yes, extrajudicial, secret killings have been committed by our government agencies. If they, on balance, have been done “with good effect” is rather difficult to judge due to the secrecy of these killings.
And, famously, we have secretly committed or helped to commit killings which have backfired terribly and caused bad relations to fester for many generations, the Mossadeq coup being among the most damaging to our long-term national interest.
It sure did help corporations with U.S. ties gain extremely lucrative contracts in Iraq for 25 years, though, so maybe it’s all good?
Yes. As I said the ones that went badly and became public are well known and point to sometime famously bad judgement … And even unethical corporate water carrying.
But the fact that the cold war ended without nuclear war and several proxy wars were avoided would suggest that at least some killings were wise and well executed.
There is a huge amount of Cold War material that has been declassified. It seems that if your supposition were true, there would be at least one history documenting a case in which assassination saved the day.
The only surprising history I have heard so far is about two instances where Soviet officers refusing to act saved the day. One involved the US torpedoing of a Soviet submarine off Cuba. The other was the KAL 007 incident which Soviet air defenses saw as an attack until an officer decided otherwise.
Again, we can’t depend on spy v. spy novels and propaganda to inform our foreign policy decisions; that sort of thinking has led us down the primrose path many times.
Common sense and probabilities say it is far more likely there were some successes than none at all.
It is simply implausible that there would be no successes.
But put the spy vs spy stuff aside. Look at drone attacks.
Some have been done with good effect. Seriously bad guys have been taken out, US blood and treasure were not put at risk and political cover was given to the “host” country when they were unwilling or unable to take on extreme factions in their own country. Yes the US can come off badly but usually among those already at odds with the US. And yes that is why collateral damage and deaths are unacceptable. And no, drone attacks are not always a good idea but it is possible for them to be a good idea.
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This is essentially the claim of power by the executive branch under a Democratic President that was made by the Bush administration to employ torture, i.e., the power of a unitary executive to act in certain matters without any review by the courts of its actions.
No, it is not, because the Obama administration only claims those powers in the context of a declared war.
The white paper refers to the armed conflict with “Al Quaida,” a stateless enemy’ but it does not restrict its interpretation of its power based on that alleged conflict.
False. The paper, titled “Lawful Use of Lethal Force Against a U.S. Citizen Who Is A Senior Operation Leader of Al-Qaeda or An Associate Force” describes only those powers available in those circumstances. It is not a memo about the legality of using such force against terrorists generally – only those covered in the September 20, 2001 AUMF.
While you chose not excise all such references, all of the administration’s legal statements have cited that authorization for the basis of the power, meaning they refer to those parties covered by the declaration.
All of the language about unilateralism and executive authority is based on a misreading.
The white elides whether the authorization is claimed under the AUMF for the global war on terrorism or whether it is claimed under general Article II powers. The administration has not provided to Sen. Wyden and other Senator who have asked the actual memos that authorized the al-Awlaki assasination. Nor general memos to CIA, DoD, and other agencies specifying the authorization and limits of this power.
The US meanwhile has an explicit law prohibiting assassination.
No, it does not elide that. It explicitly address that matter in black and white:
“It concludes that where certain conditions are met, a lethal operation against an operational commander of al Qaeda or an associated forces – …an enemy force with which the United States is in a congressionally authorized armed conflict – and who himself poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States, would not violate the Constitution.”
Page 2, second full paragraph.
Wow, Joe, you wish to avoid what appears to be the universal loophole of accountability avoidance here which is the drone program’s secrecy. It’s impossible to judge whether the Administration is within the authorization of war if Congress is not told what is being done.
Has anyone in Congress recieved a full chronicle of those who have been targeted in drone attacks or other extrajudicial killings? Has there been evidence provided to members of Congress about what those targeted had been accused of doing (note, NOT PROVEN to have done) that fits them within the definition of the “enemy” named in the authorization? Is the Administration informing Congress of the identities of collateral, innocent victims of the strikes?
Congress does not micromanage wars. Yet, it does have the right and responsibility to investigate blunders or war crimes, even those executed by our military. If you’re prevented from knowing what the programs are doing, these attacks may already have committed many war crimes, and Congress or the Judiciary are barred from enforcing any oversight at all.
And DOJ thinks this passes muster. What a farce.
Wow, Joe, you wish to avoid what appears to be the universal loophole of accountability avoidance here which is the drone program’s secrecy.
Or I’m addressing the actual subject that TarheelDem brought up in his comment, which had nothing to do with secrecy. Yeah, wow, man. Wow. I actually responded to what the guy wrote, instead of some other topic. That’s just…like….Wow.
It’s impossible to judge whether the Administration is within the authorization of war if Congress is not told what is being done.
I’m getting so tired of this bullshit. There were dozens and dozens of comments written on the subject of these strikes’ legality, written in response to a lengthy post about the strikes’ legality, including some by you, and not a single person raised the objection that we can’t talk about the legality of the strikes, and the legitimacy of the doctrine expressed in that memo…until you see me make a rebuttal that you can’t seem to answer, and which point it becomes completely impossible for us to discuss the thing you just read about, and engaged in a discussion of.
That is a sorry dodge. We most certainly can discuss the legality of strikes carried out under the doctrine articulated in that memo. That my comment made you feel much less secure about how that discussion would go doesn’t suddenly render discussion of the document and its doctrine impossible.
If you want to talk about the importance of oversight, fine, have at it. I’d like to see more oversight, too, but don’t use that point – a point completely unrelated to the one I answered – as an excuse to dodge the actual issue that Steven D wrote about.
The US meanwhile has an explicit law prohibiting assassination.
A law that specifically excludes operational commanders of enemy forces during wartime.
What is the evidence that those killed by drones and other methods without court authority were “operational commanders of enemy forces”?
We don’t know if those killed fit the definition. We can feel as certain as is possible that those reported as collateral dead and maimed from these attacks by neighboring citizens and news reports were not operational commanders.
So what about them? Where is the authorization and accountability for them?
What is the evidence that the air fields bombed in 1944 were actually Luftwaffe airfields?
And more importantly, what makes you think that you, as opposed to the military chain of command, are 1) entitled to see that evidence, and 2) entitled to legally-relevant opinion?
As for your second…I hesitate to call it an argument…It’s always sad when people are accidently killed in war, but waiving around a bloody shirt is not a legal argument.
Well, the first sentence here could be in better faith. There is a massive difference between the evidence provided by another nation’s war machine having already executed mass attacks on people in other nations, and the supposed plots of people without government license to commit admittedly heinous attacks on Americans in the future, of which there is no real evidence provided to us or our representatives at all.
Some or many of these people may have committed no violence at all (yet) at the moment the drone struck them dead, yet someone (we don’t have the right to know?) in the Administration has decided that the targets are so dangerous and unapprehendable that killing them is the only option. You might claim that I have no evidence for my suppositions here. Yet, that is exactly the point- no evidence is provided. Unidentified representatives of our government are ordering these acts. As a citizen, I have some right to assert reasonable, logical demands here- it’s my national and personal security on the line, and my tax dollars being expended.
That said, I’m not of the opinion that I am entitled to see all evidence and legal reasoning. I am certain that, at the very least, representatives of the Legislative and Judicial branches are not just entitled, but required to see those evidences. Otherwise, oversight of the war powers here has become meaningless. I concede that intelligence must be protected, and open hearings with full evidence would often not be acceptable. But oversight info must be provided to the other branches; otherwise, it is not possible to know if the war powers have justified our actions.
I mean, c’mon, some of the questions asked by Wyden in his recent letters sketch out such basic principles that it is frighteningly apparent that Congress is not recieving basic, vital info. Similarly, in recent court rulings many judges are openly chafing at the sclerotic legal universe we are experiencing. Overwhelming secrecy demands choke off the ability for judges and (when apropriate) juries to have the info necessary for properly rendered legal and Constitutional rulings.
It has never been the case that the judiciary has a right to see the intelligence behind targeting decisions in a war. When invited to inject themselves into the process, the judiciary itself has run screaming in the other direction – as well they should, because they are nowhere authorized to take on that role.
Congress is another matter. They control the purse strings, they have the war-authorization powers, and they can demand whatever they want as a condition of exercising those two powers. I think they should exercise close oversight of this, and hope the Select Commitees and leadership are doing so.
But that’s really neither here nor there when it comes to the legality of the doctrine in this memo.
Well, it also has never been the case that American citizens have been executed without known due cause at all. Executed U.S. military have had the due cause court martials set aside for them; spies dealing with classified information have been tried in our justice system. So, it’s the Executive which has broken precedence here, which may require the Judiciary, when appropriate, to consider those breaks of precedence.
I’m glad you agree that the Senate Select Committees must have their questions answered. It is clear by the dozen letters from various appropriate Senate groups to the POTUS that they do not feel the Administration has responded properly to their questions for a long time now. (See Wyden’s latest group of extremely elemental questions below.) If this standoff between the Executive and Legislative remains intractable, the Judiciary is where that dispute would have to be resolved. The Constitution offers no other alternative.
We can feel as certain as is possible that those reported as collateral dead and maimed from these attacks by neighboring citizens and news reports were not operational commanders.
So what about them? Where is the authorization and accountability for them?
I remember when your twin used to pull this same bullshit about the victims of the World Trade Center attacks when he found himself in a rough spot.
“Um…um…um…WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE ON THE 109TH FLOOR OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER? WHERE’S THE JUSTICE FOR THEM?!?”
No idea what you’re referencing about “twin” here. Perhaps you have me confused with a flame-throwing absolutist. I’d like to turn down the vitriol here.
Just a basic question: if no evidence is supplied to alternative branches of our government, how do we know if a particular American citizen killed in public by order of unnamed Administration personnel had any association with the named war enemy at all, and that they were assisting attack operations?
The fact that I respect President Obama and do not believe he should recieve impeachment over this does not diminish the need for me to demand identification of some proper oversight here.
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The CIA got really interested in cleric Anwar al-Awlaki after the Fort Hood Massacre …
Just couldn’t accept that a Muslim psychiatrist who was talking to PTSD cases from Iraq and telling what went on there might just get a little angry and have a little flip-out himself. He obviously must have been put up to it or was part of a plot.
Or did they have the goods on Anwar Al-Awlaki. Probably not, because if they had had evidence it would have been all over an Michael Isikoff article.
Actually, the Abdulmuttallab testified that Awlaki was the operational commander behind the Christmas Day bombing attempt after being captured by the FBI.
And how was that interrogation carried out?
emptywheel has had some substantial investigative diaries on this issue. If you know what you want from an interrogation, you can often get it even if it is of questionable validity.
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Why focus on the interrogation of the UndieBomber Umar Abdulmutallab and the CIA kill list? Al-Awlaki was already targeted as an Al Qaeda operative before December 25 2009. See timeline in my earlier comment and the Al-Awlaki drone strikes around Christmas 2009.
Senator Ron Wyden today:
“Every American has the right to know when their government believes that it is allowed to kill them. The Justice Department memo that was made public yesterday touches on a number of important issues, but it leaves many of the most important questions about the President’s lethal authorities unanswered. Questions like `how much evidence does the President need to decide that a particular American is part of a terrorist group?’, `does the President have to provide individual Americans with the opportunity to surrender?’ and `can the President order intelligence agencies or the military to kill an American who is inside the United States?’ need to be asked and answered in a way that is consistent with American laws and American values.”
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Cross-posted from my diary – POTUS Names John Brennan and Chuck Hagel to Cabinet Posts