My personal life and health were basically in a shambles when a co-worker I’ll call Mike insisted on taking me out to dinner. By then we’d had a good working relationship for a number of years. While not frequent, many of us in the office participated in non-work social activities that often included spouses and significant others. Mike’s wife and I shared an interest that others in the office didn’t; so, we had conversations beyond, “Hi, how are you doing” at these gatherings.
Cheering me up seemed to be the point of Mike’s invitation. But I didn’t want to be cheered up which led to his insistence that we have dinner. In a restaurant. Both of us driving own vehicles and meeting at the restaurant.
After I arrived and was seated, Mike handed me a rose. This did make me uncomfortable, but I silently rationalized it as nothing but a kind gesture from a concerned colleague. The dinner was fine and had done the trick to make me feel less sad.
Then suddenly, while still in the restaurant, Mike grabbed and kissed me. This surprised and shocked me enough that it was few moments before I gathered my wits and pulled away from him. Not wanting to make a commotion, told him that we seem to have had different impressions of what was happening here.
End of story. One I’ve never told anyone. In the grand scheme of life, it was inconsequential. I didn’t hold it against Mike, and he related to me as if it had never happened except once or twice when he mentioned that he still found me attractive. Over the years I learned that his wife knew that Mike wasn’t the most faithful husband and I think she also knew that I wasn’t one of Mike’s “other women.” They raised two beautiful and well educated children and are today happily retired.
So, when I read
[In Bill Cosby’s house when his wife and her date were in another room in 1967] “He walked over to me and grabbed me, pulls me really tight to him, kisses me on the mouth, like really really rough. And I just took my hands and I pushed him away,” Ferrigno told KFI radio station.
I’m like wtf? Boorish, disrespectful behavior is several major steps from rape. Yet, the media is lapping up Ferrigno’s story as if it’s more evidence that the rape allegations against Cosby are true.
We’ve come a long way since 1945
when a sailor spontaneously grabbed and kissed a woman that had never seen him before in her life. A kiss that she neither welcomed nor appreciated. Behavior on his part that isn’t acceptable or tolerated today. But do we want to criminalize it?
Eisenstaedt still took a great picture even if the kiss was technically assault.
I’ve worked with rock bands as an audio engineer, some superstar status, and was always amazed at the way groupies would throw themselves at the famous.
Cosby was a superstar, a black one. All the accusers seem to be white, although I haven’t seen a combined list with photographs.
I’m holding back on judgment, due to the age of the accusations, and the professed reasons for coming out now.
Pardon my ignorance, but were any of these sexual transgressions witnessed?
The general public likely doesn’t fully understand the “groupie” phenomenon. Or assigns it to something that only exists in the rock star arena. Men known to be wealthy, famous, and/or powerful attract women. For some, more women than they are interested in for even a “quickie.” What seems to have gotten lost in the Cosby stories is that most of the alleged assaults took place when Cosby was the “I Spy” and stand-up comedian cool guy and not the Dr. Huxtable dad.
None of the reports of alleged sexual assaults seem to include the presence of anyone but Cosby and the woman. A couple of the reports that I’ve read stated that there were others around before Cosby and the woman allegedly went off together. However, as the other people were friends, employees, or associates of Cosby, they wouldn’t be expected to come forward to confirm anything.
Erm, it’s already criminalized, as far as I know; it’s assault. Of course, this is why rape and sexual assault are so hard to prove in a court of law BARD: it devolves into mostly a he said/she said.
If multiple people come forward making accusations against the same person, and those alleged victims describe the same Modus Operandi, without having had an opportunity to confer and agree their stories, that’s definitely a huge red flag that warrants further investigation. It might not be enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law, but it is enough to justify exposing the accused to deeper scrutiny. And in my mind, the simplest explanation is that he is, in all likelihood, a serial rapist.
But after all these years, haven’t the witnesses had that chance to confer and harmonize their accounts?
I hope you never have the Twitter machinegun turned on you.
Tend to doubt that the women compared notes with each other. However, other than the first woman that claimed a decades old assault, AC’s attorney was the common contact for the other twelve “Jane Does.” None were deposed and we don’t know what their original stories looked like or if they had been coached or prompted in any way when they told them.
Here’s the problem. The tabloids managed to get and published a couple of details from the police report of the first allegation and that’s the only seeming similarity to the stories of the other women that quickly told their stories to the media and/or the first victim’s attorney.
The story of the second alleged victim is much more like one of early reports on the first alleged victim than the actual story of the first alleged victim. The latter story not available until the first woman filed her civil complaint.
Should I have reported that kiss to the police? Or my employer? At the time it happened, my employer took sexual harassment claims seriously. Two men that I knew of had been fired — one married manager made moves on a male trainee and one attorney had harassed a clerical assistant in the office.
Depends. In this situation, obviously employer would have had the maximal impact. You didn’t take it as assault, and from your description it sounds infinitely different than what Cosby is accused of doing. To me you made it sound like a misunderstanding of what was going on rather than any sort of assault; an inappropriate time for a somewhat aggressive but not threatening lean-in (dinner? really, Mike? Why not outside when saying goodbye?).
Others, of course, could have been threatened — possibly women who had previously been attacked, setting of a trigger — and went to the employer. Due process would have been given, and the chips would fall where they may; I doubt he’d have been fired for this behavior. This is why I don’t date or sleep with co-workers.
The only allegation I linked to in the diary was an uninvited/unwelcomed, aggressive kiss. That woman was no more at risk for the situation escalating to rape than I was. Mrs. Cosby and her date were in the house while she and Cosby were in the pool room.
Why should the difference between that woman’s story and mine be a matter of how we interpreted it? Was Cosby more aggressive than Mike? Who knows. What did Cosby expect/hope that kiss would lead to? Sex while his wife and her date were within hearing distance? What did Mike expect/hope for? That should be obvious. Defining it as a misunderstanding clarified for him where I was without accusing him of having wronged me. Nothing wrong with allowing for misunderstanding in situations open to doubt.
While I didn’t then or now perceive myself as having been flirtatious, it’s not impossible that others would have read my behavior differently. How many movies/TV shows have we all been subjected to where a man grabs and kisses a woman and that breaks the physical impasse between the two? How many of us can say that we haven’t been in such a situation?
You’re so sane that it’s a pleasure to discuss this with you, Marie2.
Many people view me as being nuttier than a fruitcake.
Not sure it’s a question of sanity so much as a tendency to assess new issues from a different angle. Drives me nuts that so many pull out their same old, tired, worn and stock responses to every situation. For example — 99% of the initial responses to the Sandy Hook massacre were one of the following: it’s gun regulation, our gun culture, violent videogames, mental health underfunding or not taken seriously, teacher need to be armed. All either wrong or only slightly relevant.
I may be somewhat odd in that I’m a radical feminist who doesn’t hate men. That appreciates the biological weaknesses and limitations of all of us. heh — was once hired to do some part-time office work for a psychologist that was into how white men were being emasculated by feminists. He thought he’d found a feminist that would coddle his poor, narcissistic ego and could use that to get some creds with feminist psychologists. I quit returning his phone calls and doubt that he ever got it.
The Cosby thing has become of interest to me on several levels. Not the least of which is the public’s desire to destroy him. I didn’t hold him in high esteem (never once saw his TV show), but am mindful of the US history in destroying black men for real or imagined sexual activities with white women.
There’s just something, that I can’t quite identify, that feels off to me in these women’s stories about Cosby. Had a similar sense in the Duke Lacrosse team rape allegations. In that instance, expressing my reservations led others to charge me with being anti-women or not understanding rape (as if I hadn’t read Against Our Will shortly after it was published in 1975) or being a racist. Not going to defend marital infidelity because rarely does it not hurt others; so, Cosby gets no empathy from me on that aspect. Guess I’m saying it’s fine to tarnish his good guy, wholesome family guy image for being a philanderer and if that ends his career so be it. But is he a drug pushing rapist? Don’t know.
??? What is this? How is that “odd” at all unless we’re to take some talking points from the misogynist website “A Voice For Men”?
I know you didn’t mean it that way, especially with the latter anecdote about the psychologist, but that’s how it’s coming off.
I don’t see this, at all. In fact, quite the opposite. Half the commentary I see is to question the veracity and truthfulness of the women’s stories, at least from “the public”. He’s getting standing ovations from public appearances. I see it more like this:
Ravens RB Ray Rice loudly cheered at Monday practice
^^That was before the video was made public, mind you. Excepting of course, I don’t know what these people expected to be on that video, but apparently “seeing it” changed a lot of minds.
I don’t watch cable news, so maybe that’s why my glasses are rose colored.
Is it weird that I don’t care about his marital infidelity? I did watch his show, every morning before school. I don’t particularly care about his image, or him as a person; I can still watch his show and enjoy it (though I enjoyed it less for him and more for Phylicia Rashad).
This is from The New York Daily, so take of it what you will:
Isn’t the whole lament of the misogynist men’s groups that feminists hate men? That we’re labeled “femininazis” by the dittoheads? My point was that I don’t put all men into one box and always assume the worst first.
If you’re indifferent to marital infidelity, you’re not alone. Although many aren’t quite that honest as they feign outrage over other philanderers while having had their own affairs. Many were GOP House members that impeached Clinton. A business associate (not Mike) that had long been open with me about his infidelities expressed total outrage over Clinton’s behavior. Hypocrites drive me nuts.
Saw that report earlier today. Wondered if this ninety-year old man realized that he was admitting to having participated in prostitution (as much if not more than the drivers that were recently busted in NYC). Why not reveal the name of the “modeling agency” that was acting as the pimp? Hypocritical for all of us to pretend that men pay big bucks for escorts, models, etc. to accompany them to dinner, etc. And why would that old man have saved money order receipts for twenty-five years that only implicated himself and the woman or pimp service?
Maybe I’m jaded; too many women, including many (all?) of my past girlfriends, have been victims of outright rape at worst, and casual sexual assault at best. I also grew up in a house with serious domestic violence issues, of which I was a victim (though as an adult standing up for myself, he backed down more frequently than when I was twelve being thrown down the stairs).
I don’t put all men into a box, but I also don’t feel the need to cater to their hurt fee fees by saying “NOTALLMEN” disclaimers before I write stuff. The same can be said for the racist white supremacist culture we live in, and how I have no need to cater to and court the opinion of white people who get offended if I talk about “white people” as a group.
But yes, I don’t particularly care about infidelity. I’ve never cheated on someone, personally, but someone else’s marital problems are none of my concern; for all I know, their marriage included a “sleep around” clause in it, and they’re both willing participants. It’s half the reason I know I could never get married…it’s hard enough being in a long term relationship for two years (anniversary was last week). If I had my way, I’d be in an open relationship, but that’s not her thing…so I respect that.
Yeah, I don’t know those details; it’s why I made a disclaimer of New York Daily.
Allow me first to compliment you for the intelligence and psychological fortitude to recognize that the physical violence you were subjected to was wrong and harmful and nobody deserves that.
Not sure if I should how to interpret this:
One is too many. Past research has indicated that the number was about 25%. Among my family, friends, and acquaintances the number was lower — by chance and not because we were special. But I have worried of late that there has been an increase in the rate sexual assaults of both young women and men. Generalized social callousness combined with more overt sexualized dress and style at a younger age may be contributing factors. Hope I’m wrong because otherwise, feminism hasn’t led to the changes it should have.
While I try to be polite and respectful of others, I do make it clear that I have no tolerance for racism, sexism, violence, crooks, etc.
Congratulations on your two year anniversary. Open relationships are complicated and usually difficult even when both people choose it over monogamy. Everyone has to negotiate a way within their particular primary relationship. “Mike” and his wife didn’t have an open marriage — he cheated, she knew he cheated, but it was never discussed between the two of them. What seemed to make it work for her is that it wasn’t that often and he was discreet about it, it was his only vice, and there was never any question that he would leave her. Also, he didn’t lie to the other women about his marital status; so, nobody was betrayed.
As currently constructed, I’m not sure anyone should marry. Japan may be on the forefront of what our personal social relationship arrangements will look like in a hundred years – 33% of Japanese Think Marriage is Pointless.
Well, if you’re looking for a silver lining — which I certainly was when I went to a therapist in college because I was worried that by simply being exposed to that violent behavior that I, too, would be violent in my future relationships with women — it brought out the feminist from inside. I still think it had (has) an impact on my relationship with my mother; I think subconsciously part of me harbors resentment for putting ourselves in such danger. I don’t feel that way, but part of me might…
And yes, I’d like to do away with marriage period, but social mores and all that. My current relationship won’t last, as she’s Indian and her parents definitely want her to marry (and she does, too). But, you know, she’s said this is the healthiest relationship she’s ever had, and is happy. So why break it off?
I think that we may all, at least up until a certain age, have an inborn feminist side. Accessing it in our culture is difficult and not just for men. Look at the GOP women that want to deny other women control over their own bodies and are only too happy to drop bombs on innocent children and their parents.
It’s only natural that your feelings towards your mother conflicted. Know that she too was a victim and at some level feels guilt for not having been able to protect you and herself. Some day she may find a way to express that. But it has to come from her when she is ready to do so.
As long as you and your girlfriend are both happy, go with it and don’t let social constructs/conventions interfere. And “wanting to get married” is a social conventions that we’re taught to want. If only someone like me today could have spoken to and been heard by me thirty years ago.
As an aside, back to one of your original questions, I’d say I’m in very much agreement with this Jacobin article titled, “Against Carceral Feminism
“Carceral Feminism?” Interesting that a libertarian publication would find another label with which to try to denigrate feminism and then accuse white feminists of making life worse for poor women of color because the men that are beating the crap out of them should be locked up.
Yet all the other forms of support for women that feminists have been arguing and working for have always been obstructed by the rightwing and so-called libertarians. We can’t even get totally free, universal access to full reproductive health care services. That alone would reduce the number of poor women with children dependent on an unacceptable man for financial support.
Amber A’Lee Frost critiqued the piece here from a similar POV.
Though I’m in agreement with Freddie deBoer’s counter.
Amber gets it right and deBoer doesn’t. There is nothing inconsistent in recognizing that some people must be incarcerated to protect others and allow the prisoner some time to reform his/her emotions and thinking. That hardly means locking up the unbelievably high numbers of people this country imprisons. Libertarians may believe that there should be no police and that’s a consistent philosophy, but anarchy doesn’t promote well being for a society and for better or worse, we are a society. Police to “serve and protect” would be good.
It’s so tiresome to hear conservatives and libertarians criticizing feminists for the crappy, compromise legislation that we are always forced to accept because they obstruct good legislation. Ambers nails it here:
In my mind, an offer to have a sexual relationship is harassment only if it is repeated. If Mike were your boss, it would be different. While such a relationship is generally frowned on, the most the boss can do in honor is subtly give the impression that an offer from the subordinate would be welcome. That’s hard to do subtly.
The kiss is technically an assault. Was it just on the lips? Just say “No!” firmly. Did he try to drive his tongue into your mouth? At least a slap if not a knee is in order. Refused to stop? NOW we have the start of rape.
One such proposal that contains an implicit, possible negative ramifications for saying no is sexual harassment.
Some men and women are also not clear where the line between kidding around and serious intent is. Responding with “that makes me uncomfortable; so I’d appreciate that you not do it again” defines it for the jokesters and is the one and only warning notice a harassers should receive.
“One such proposal that contains an implicit, possible negative ramifications for saying no is sexual harassment.” I totally agree. That’s why it’s so delicate. Like you, I’ve seen office relationships, even boss-subordinate relationships work, but the odds are really against it.
I’m very sorry that when you needed a friend, Mike only needed a his rocks off, if you will pardon the crudity. What a betrayal! And you know my feelings about loyalty and honor. I’ve been friends with quite a few women. I’ve been sexually attracted to several of them. I would never endanger a friendship by making a pass.
Actually, I didn’t need a friend at that time. I had plenty. What I was relating was that we can all have times in our lives when we feel vulnerable but are still capable of not being taken advantage. He “asked” and I said no. (Colleagues and married or attached men were never relationship options for me. However, have known others who wouldn’t have met their mate if they’d lived by my rules. OTOH, those rules precluded the disasters and heartbreak I’ve also seen.)
Mike’s intentions weren’t quite honorable, but wouldn’t go so far as to say that they were dishonorable. Professionally, he respected me then and in subsequent years when we were technically competitors. Even suggested that I might like to replace him as a manager when he was preparing to retire. iirc he said that I was better at the marketing. True except he loved that part of the job and I loathed it.
“Colleagues and married or attached men were never relationship options for me.”
A wise policy.