Sometimes I wish we could magically take the partisanship out of our political disagreements long enough for people to make objective determinations about who, if anyone, has the better of the argument. One of the dangers of the Conservative Movement is that it attracts team loyalty first, and then once its fans are on board they will defend virtually anything their side does on the moral plane, regardless of whether or not it violates their previous standards and code of ethics.
The most obvious recent example of this was the way the right felt compelled to defend the selection of Sarah Palin to be John McCain’s running mate. Palin’s shortcomings were so glaring and overwhelming that, in order to defend her, conservatives had to devalue all the things that they previous thought were absolute prerequisites for holding such a high office. This list here is long: familiarity with history and current events, a basic working knowledge of global geography, some minimal level of intellectual curiosity, the ability to face the media and answer tough questions, the ability to conduct oneself appropriately during a formal debate without resorting to beauty queen tactics, basic family stability and rectitude, competency in the office one already holds, some basic regard for facts over blatant fabrication.
These values were eroded during the Bush administration, but they still existed to one degree or another on the right when Palin was selected. They were all weakened dramatically during the sixty-some days of the McCain-Palin campaign, and they never even came close to recovering their previous standing among Republicans, whether on television and radio, in print, or just with people in their living rooms.
Karl Rove certainly played his own part in lowering the standards previously held by people on the right. The U.S. Attorneys Scandal was staggering in this regard. But he’s dragging his political movement down to depths that almost no one could have been pessimistic enough to predict:
In an interview on Fox News Sunday, host Chris Wallace pointed out that the Senate Intelligence Committee report on the CIA’s use of torture had revealed techniques including a “series of near drownings,” sleep deprivation, and unnecessary “rectal feedings.”
“Isn’t that torture by any definition?” Wallace asked.
“No,” Rove insisted. “Let’s get the rectal feedings out. In this report, there are nine references on 14 pages to rectal feedings. And four of those five, it is the result of a hunger strike by the detainee.”
Rove asserted that waterboarding, slapping detainees, and solitary confinement were also “carefully designed.”
“The tests were, do they involved severe pain or suffering or do they involve severe and prolonged mental pain or suffering?” he opined. “And in each instance, these procedures were designed so that they would not pass those barriers.”
“Take, for example, waterboarding,” Rove continued. “In waterboarding — unlike World War II, where the Japanese attempted to drown people by basically pouring water in their mouths — here the feet were elevated so there’s little or not chance of any fluid getting into the lungs. And very careful standards set in place so these would help break the the resistance of the detainee without placing their life in danger.”
It seems wrong to even lower myself to respond substantively to these remarks, but it should be obvious that the Imperial Japanese Army killed those it wanted to kill and tortured those it wanted to torture. They did not use waterboarding as a long and entertaining way to kill people they could have just bayoneted. What distinguishes the actions of the CIA under the Bush administration from the Japanese army under Emperor Hirohito is not how they conducted their waterboarding.
As for his defense of so-called rectal rehydration, Physicians for Human Rights have an opinion on its use to deal with hunger strikes.
“Contrary to the CIA’s assertions, there is no clinical indication to use rectal rehydration and feeding over oral or intravenous administration of fluids and nutrients,” said Dr. Vincent Iacopino, PHR’s senior medical advisor. “This is a form of sexual assault masquerading as medical treatment. In the absence of medical necessity, it is clear that the only purpose behind this humiliating and invasive procedure is to inflict physical and mental pain.”
The effect of Rove’s defense of these tactics can be seen easily simply by watching any CSPAN program that deals with this controversy and listening to the opinions of the conservative callers. Almost to a person, they are calling in to dismiss the seriousness of torture, to justify it, to attack the Democrats who produced the report, and to even call for more brutal treatment of our “enemies.”
These people may have troglodytic tendencies to begin with, but they wouldn’t be defending this behavior if it had been carried out under the leadership of the “other team.” They are following two basic instincts: the instinct to follow their leadership, and the instinct to defend their team from attacks originating primarily on the left.
And once the train leaves the station, it is gone forever. These people do not go back to holding their previous standards. Their standards are just lowered, and lowered for good. The vanguard of the GOP now holds that brutal, repellent abuses of human rights are not really a problem, and that, if anything, our government should be more harsh in the future.
This is how the banality of evil works. Once people are led to take up a side, they are highly susceptible to following the leadership regardless of where it takes them.
The conservatives have already led their flock away from science or any reasonable standards about their candidates’ fitness for office.
Now they are leading them as fast as they can away from any minimal sense of human decency.
>>Once people are led to take up a side, they are highly susceptible to following the leadership regardless of where it takes them.
don’t pretend this happens only to conservatives. By refusing to prosecute torturers, Obama is also part of lowering the national standards.
I’ve thought about this recently. Tried to get my head around it.
Could it be – precisely because of the very real dynamic mentioned above – that Holder and Obama feel they couldn’t get a conviction? And that an acquittal would be worse than anything? If you can’t even indict a police officer what makes you think you can convict Darth Cheney? And wouldn’t that have the effect of validating the torture regime in a court of law?
I forgot to add that to my comment as well. I don’t buy it, personally. I do think it might be hard to get a conviction, but I doubt that was their thought process. Again, in 2009, all of Obamas confidants recommended an independent commission, including Panetta and Clinton. Obama is the only one who wasn’t on board.
Source for that, from Jane Mayer in the current New Yorker:
Note that Emanuel is said to have been on the side of the commission too.
Mayer had a subtler take when she interviewed Panetta on the subject in June 2009. As DCI, Panetta basically wanted the commission to deflect awkward questions from himself:
On the other hand Panetta rejected Obama’s intention to declassify the OLC torture memos, per the same article. He may have wanted a commission, but he wouldn’t have wanted one with any teeth:
Nobody is covered in glory here. Including Obama. But you really can’t make the kind of clear-cut judgments you could for the Bush criminality.
This:
constant need of the Democratic Party/politicians to muddy the waters on every issue, to confuse, bamboozle, or simply con voters is why only a minority of the electorate bothers to show up and vote.
On the “they had a gun to our heads” budget bill, there were but six Senate Democrats that said, “Hell, no.” Two of those five, Manchin and McCaskill, aren’t on anyone’s list of progressives. Only two of those six, Brown and Sanders, have a long enough track record in Congress that their progressive creds on all issues are solid. Although Sanders does on occasion disappoint the left, and if I looked hard at Brown’s record, could probably find the same thing. So, the Senate progressive caucus amounts to two with two others, Franken and Warren, as potential long-term recruits.
Have you read Drum who went in and dug up what Democrats got in return for the bill? It might not change your mind but its not like it was only capitulation.
Happy days are here again:
And as soon as Wall St. crashes the financial system again, Congress will have no choice but to slash all the other “goodies” that Democrats got into the budget bill along with cuts to existing social/welfare programs. Or maybe some think that Jamie Dimon whipping up support for the bill was because he was looking out for the “little people.”
Are you sure about that? I’d bet money that prosecuting might have made it into an even worse partisan fiasco, with an even greater number of conservatives seeing it through a partisan lens than they already do.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t prosecute the torturers, but I don’t find this argument particularly convincing.
Where I will agree is that Obama is arguably a war criminal in his own right, as the drone war has indiscriminately killed far more civilians than the admin cares to admit, and that torture hasn’t truly ended under his admin; there are loopholes in the army field manual, for one. And for two, torture and the CIA go together like bread and butter. It’s inherent in their structure. It’s what they’ve always done.
Conversation with a CIA Interrogator. The CIA’s contribution to winning the US war in Vietnam.
That excerpt should read “former US Congressman Rob Simmons (R-CT).” He lost his 2006 election to a Democrat and later lost his 2010 Senate bid in the GOP primary.
Moral outrage is now limited to certain forms of individual murders/killings. Such as beheadings. And perhaps that prohibition is more a function of the perpetrator and the victim than the method of killing.
A drone bombing that kills fifty innocent people doesn’t rise further on “our” outrage meter than an unfortunate error or mistake, collateral damage. But “we” go to war if an enemy beheads an innocent American.
Moments in time when a solid majority of Americans didn’t rationalize, condone, and/or excuse the brutality and barbaric excesses of government and private institutions are the exception. And those moments were also politicized. However, generally, both major political parties vie for the black hearts and minds of the majority. Our “better angels” were trounced in the only recent presidential election when the question was articulated. That was in 1972 and the Democratic Party has rejected putting that question before the electorate since then. Better a vile man like Nixon in the WH than a smart, decent, and qualified man or woman that strives for honesty and peace.
It doesn’t help that there are highly visible examples that honesty and peace get you crushed.
Sorry folks but the facts are the current GOP has morphed into a party that lives by one rule. “The ends justifies the means”. A;; they care about is getting what they want. To them torture is just another means used to get what they want. If any are looking for a moral reason for the GOP to quit. Well the GOP has thrown morality out of their party quite a while ago.They live for the means.
It feels like I must be living in a Twilight Zone episode when I find it necessary to have to formulate a rational argument to convince a friend or someone in my family that torturing other human beings, as a normal matter of course, is abominable. But that is where we are. A fairly sizable segment of our country has lot a critical portion of their humanity. And I agree, we are not likely to see it recovered. I, along with many others, saw it coming shortly after 9/11; and it has been all downhill from that point. It has been ruthlessly exploited for political gain, and the monster has been fed a steady diet of fear and loathing at every turn. It sickens me. I have to admit that in my more introspective moments, it does make me muse as to whether this is a place I really want to be for the remainder of my life.
The US isn’t post-pacial.
The US is Post-Traumatic. Stockholm Syndrome, even.
We have to violate people’s rights in order to save people’s rights. Right out of the Vietnam playbook.
Godwin’s Law no longer applied: we are NAZI.
We would do well to recall that when Germany chose this path it got its ass thoroughly kicked, half its population killed or displaced and under foreign occupation for nearly forty years. The Japan lost a half million in an instant.
Before anyone waxes indignant… uo uo uo greatesy country most powerful Army la te da te da… leave me remind you that China’s Army alone is larger than the population of the Untied States.no fear.
It’s not Godwin’s Law it’s Cleek’s Law:
Today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today, updated daily.
Point taken, though moot in the generally accepted sense of the word. It no longer applies. We are NAZI.
(and I seriously dislike “smart” phones.
Umm..It is looking more like the beginnings of our future at the hands of a de-humanized police force…Hmmm??? How do you get someone to kill in cold blood and call it justice??? How else can a neighbor kill his neighbor? how else can you get brother to fire upon brother??? Chapter two in the Occupation Handbook…there are some gopers who are fans of cattle cars for immigrants…How else do you control the masses without being a majority??? Choke ’em, beat ’em, gas ’em…where are the Christian Voices??? that’s what I thought….
No shortage of “Christian Voices.” They may be divided within US institutions, but the majority sides with TPTB and whatever they do to enforce their will.
If there breathes a being more repugnant than Rove, I hope I never see it.
Cheney.
Unless there’s some sort of miraculous change, the next Republican President with a Republican Congress will bring in full-blown Fascism – American style.
Or it may very well be Theocratic Fascism.
I’m seriously going to look to move to another country in the next few years.
I’ve done my share of protesting – probably more than my share – but I’m done.
This country appears to be hell-bent on suicide, and I’d rather watch that from a distance, and not be one of the liberal victims.
I’ve had enough of being called a treasonous traitor during, and after, “Bush’s Follies.”
Next time, our new conservative jack-booted thugs won’t stop at calling people like me names.
how is rectal rehydration not rape? Don’t need to convict them on torture we can just convict them all on rape charges
I think this captures the current national dynamic pretty accurately, well done. The coaches of Team Conservative will shrink at nothing to obtain political power—whatever path is necessary will be taken. American fascism? Fine, no problem, as long as (say) the EPA is wrecked.
Every example in your post illustrates the method and the problem. Here, a major pillar of “conservative” teevee propaganda “interviews” a leading coach of Team Conservative so the cogs can be informed of what conservative orthodoxy and “thought” on a subject might be—here, torture, advocated and adopted by Team Conservative. Now, whether something is “torture” is a legal matter. Coach Rove never graduated from a college, let alone a law school. He is essentially an ignoramus and knows nothing whatever about the subject at hand. Plus he is a deeply interested party, as a key player in the “conservative” admin that did the torture.
So he is not remotely qualified to discuss the subject expert, and is hopelessly biased to boot. Yet he is presented as a knowledgeable and legitimate source of information to the braindead cogs (and others who may tune in), all without opposition or counterargument (another standard practice of the Noise Machine). This is what our elites have funded and maintained as a way to poison our country and its politics permanently.
The elites that run the country are now motivated by a material greed so strong that nothing restrains their behavior, so dragging a majority of American boobs into a political cesspool is not seen as a problem, so long as their short term profits are large enough. They then think they will be immune from the resulting chaos, safe in the south of France, apparently.
This is fine for them, except that the country being radicalized and poisoned has the largest and most deadly arsenal ever amassed. The radical “conservatization” (i.e Nazification) of America is a looming world problem of the first order. Yes, one can point out that the Nazis ultimately destroyed their country for generations. But not before they destroyed enormous portions of the rest of the world. Fuhrer Cruz will have an enormous reach. The ongoing downward spiral of the US of A quickly needs to become a subject of global discussion, and action.
“The most obvious recent example of this was the way the right felt compelled to defend the selection of Sarah Palin to be John McCain’s running mate.”
I agree with your point, but I don’t see Palin as a particularly good example. The right did not and does not “feel compelled” to defend her. Most of the right was ecstatic about the Palin nomination. It didn’t require any lowering of standards, their standards were already abysmal. To this day, some of them may have doubts about her viability as a candidate, but they still love her. Their abandonment of all common snese and common decency merely follows suit upon their penchant for treating politics as both a team sport and a part of their religion.
How do we marginalize the supporters and the worthless mainstream enablers? That’s where our heads should be right now.
The only way the RWNJs are going to turn against torture is if it seems likely to be used against THEM.
I’ll volunteer to feed Cheney rectally.
Just in time for them to take over Congress, too. I wonder how low the standards are there. Is it too much to hope that they at least won’t burn down the Capitol?
They did that in Germany when they took power.
Your best. Yes. Nearly five decades of lowering standards for those who make the major decisions that affect the world.
This is really dangerous territory. Think of the Hutu prior to the Rwanda massacre. The talk radio was all about getting justice against the Tutsi. The populace was Hutu populace was slowly worn down to the point where burying a machete in a child’s face was an ok expression of political viewpoint.
Winning > Human Decency
Always has been.
I’ll bite. What does distinguish them? I don’t see anything. Maybe that the Japanese thought they had a divine right to rule lesser races? No, that doesn’t distinguish them either.
“…for people to make objective determinations about who, if anyone, has the better of the argument.”
Will not happen, cannot happen. Objectivity is over. We tried it. We didn’t like it. We’ll never try it again. Our discourse today consists exclusively of allegories and thus it shall remain.
As to rectal rehydration, the claim was that the prisoners involved were too vigorously uncooperative to use needles. That might make sense. Might not.
I seem to be citing Jim Wright a lot these days, but he expresses so well so much of what I’m thinking and feeling:
http://www.stonekettle.com/2014/12/the-road-to-hell.html
Every time I read Jim I always wonder, “Why didn’t I say it that way?”
Same here.