Which of these is the more significant story: Saudi Arabia severs diplomatic ties to Iran or Armed militia takes over small building in Oregon national wildlife refuge?
Which story is completely dominating what progressives want to talk about on Twitter?
I get that people don’t like how white men can be treated with respect even when they’re armed to the teeth, breaking the law, and messing with federal property.
But I think some perspective is in order. That’s all I’m saying.
You can safely ignore the idiots in Oregon. But I’d keep my eye on the Middle East if I were you.
The Saudi story is FAR more significant. Things going bad between Iran and Saudi Arabia has been inevitable for quite awhile, but when the Saudi’s executed that cleric I think war became unavoidable.
The Saudi’s are about to get their asses kicked. No way the princes fight when there is a chance they might get hurt. Switzerland will start to look like a great alternative.
.
The Saudis have a great group of mercenaries that they called in for the First Gulf War. I doubt if their asses will be kicked. But more coffins will fly back to the USA.
Yep, we can ignore the militia yahoos right up ’till we get another Murrah Federal Building blowed up real good. These are domestic terrorists, on our soil, and are a hella lot more dangerous than ISIS.
I rather doubt that Iran and Saudi Arabia will do anything more than rattle their sabers, an actual war would profit neither of them.
In Tehran it’s probably seen as a mixed blessing: it gives their restive population something to fulminate against; it might even help peel away American support for Saudi Arabia.
In concert with the recent loosening of trade, they’ll be glad (in a practical sense) of a chance to ease relations with the US.
It was a stupid, stupid thing for the Saudis to do, absolutely pointless.
“It was a stupid, stupid thing for the Saudis to do, absolutely pointless.”
Are you sure Obama had nothing to do with it?
Obama Derrangement Syndrome: Not just a conservative affliction…
I would say the same for Bush (either one), Clinton, Reagan, Nixon, Ford, LBJ, Kennedy, Eisenhower. Not sure about Truman and I wouldn’t suspect Jimmy Carter. There is a LONG history of White House sanctioned black ops and imperial diplomacy.
I think, yeah, maybe Truman too. And Roosevelt, but he died before I was born, so it’s a matter for the historians.
Also, too, remember the cops who were shot in Las Vegas.
I’ve decided to express myself like Arthur Gilroy.
Which story is more important?
It depends on how willing you are to WAKE UP.
There are all kinds of reasons to ignore the real geopolitical repercussions of the Saudi manuever.
If you accept what you’re being told.
All you have to do is think for yourself.
Am I kidding?
No, I’m not. Wake up, people.
There’s a much longer version at my blog [insert URL]
You’ve got it.
That’s the right answer.
Bet on it.
JO
Need some JPEGs. Preferably pictures that make some want to retch. More exclamation points and boxes as well.
Noted. Next time
And be sure to make the jpegs so huge that people have to shuttle their bottom scroll bars back and forth to read the comments.
Lay in large supplies of condescension while you’re at it.
Yes, and don’t forget the signature line.
Born. Still trying to figure out why I alone am right about everything.
Needs work, but you’re getting the spirit.
Noting which CNN is forcing your muzzle into is always a helpful clue of who wants what.
I laughed.
In America we have no idea of the divisions in Islamic religious thought that are just below the political faultlines. That’s the way our betters want it to be.
It’s been snowing in Portland, switching to freezing rain for the armed militia campers in the eastern part of our state. I say block off the roads in and out of the bird sanctuary and wait for the idiots to run out of warmth.
AmandaPeacher
Guess LEOs are going with “ignore them and maybe they’ll get bored and go home.”
The law under which the arsonists were prosecuted and convicted was introduced by Bob Dole, after the first bombing of the WTC and the bombing of the Murrah Building back in the nineties.
B-b-b-bu-t Doles a RINO,
hell,
he even took a dive for Clinton in ’96 ……
(sarc)
Snow and armed yahoos! And I was seriously thinking of moving from Illinois to Oregon. Sounds like a cross between Wisconsin and Texas.
Reportedly only a dozen or so men occupying the federal bldg. Several, if not most or all, aren’t Oregonians. Not that Oregon doesn’t have a RW militia issue, but so too do northern tier states and in Texas anyone can be part of his/her own militia.
Its Pac-NW skin heads that give me pause for moving to the area.
In Texas, I think sanity is illegal.
The Saudi/Iran noise is to bring about a rise in the price of a barrel of oil. No oil producing country makes a profit off of oil under $70 a barrel.
Am reading that Iran has withdrawn her troops from Syria, happy to have Russia take over. Too many losses and too expensive. China has switched over to Russia as main source of her oil, a change from the Saudis, because of ISIS influencing rebels in home provinces.
I am going to need some sturdy proof that the caliphate / Uygher connection is anything more than state propaganda to facilitate demographic genocide.
Several sources have reported that in addition to drawing forces from Europe, DAESH has forces from Chechnya, Dagestan (separatist provinces in Russia) and Chinese Uighurs (separatists in China’s Xinjiang province. Recent reports are of recruits from Russia’s Caucasus areas and Islamic enclaves of Armenia. China is worried that separatism is getting stronger. In addition to the political repression that has been traditional, China’s infrastructure development plans seek to bring prosperity that undercuts the political use of religious extremism.
The global elites are clueless that increasing austerity increases religious extremism and factional conflict. Tanking the global economy does that. Refusing to restart the global economy does that. Imposing economic sanctions on countries does that. Making foolish national economic decisions does that. On top of that, fossil fuel producing nations are now in a bind as renewables come down the cost curve. Why should China help the Saudis when the Russians are much friendlier partners whose oil needs transporting shorter distances once you run a pipelines through the Ti’an Shan. And pipeline construction provides employment at two or three locations along the northern border, including Xinjiang. China still has not come to terms with the religious within its borders; it still tries various means of control. China’s push to integrate itself with Europe and to extend tributaries into resource regions, such as Latin America and Africa, dampens its interest in ethnic cleansing of other than Han. That said, bad historical choices (especially Tibet) are difficult to unwind without losing face. And the Dalai Lama’s decision not to appoint a successor effectively checkmated China’s attempt to control Tibetan Buddhism.
Indigenous Islamic leaders in Xinjiang not interested in the Saudi version of jihadism are likely to find some accommodation with the Chinese government in the same way that Sistani has found accommodation with the US government with respect to Iraqi governance. As you suspect, the DAESH influence in Xinjiang seems to be minimal but sufficient to cause security concerns just as it does in France and Belgium. And the US by the way, where the possibility of demographic genocide is not far different from that in China at the moment.
USians need to shake off some Cold War stereotypes of Russia and China. The US play for Central Asia has awakened both the Russian and Chinese governments to non-military uses of power in the region that develops a different relationship with the -stans and ethnic enclaves within Russia and China. Unlike the West, China has the political economic flexibility within its own realm to roll out infrastructure with its own resources. It requires foreign exchange that affects its balance of trade only for resources it doesn’t produce itself. This economic strategy has drastically altered how China sees Xinjiang and the -stans.
“The global elites are clueless that increasing austerity increases religious extremism and factional conflict. “
That also ties in to the Oregon story and the rise of Trump and Carson.
What are you referring to with US demographic genocide?
Otherwise this was a great post.
It won’t work.
Especially if Iran adds one million barrels of crude to the over supplied market over the next year.
Both the Saudis and Iran need the cash, so neither can accept cutting their exports voluntarily.
And Putin has stepped in to take up any slack Chinese demand creates; not that there will be much left.
Which is more dangerous to the world, the Saudis not talking to the Iranians, or the American belief that armed white men should be able to do whatever they want without concern for the rights and needs of others? It’s quite likely that the best thing we can do right now is let the Middle East solve their own problems, while we deal with ours.
If this were about people not talking, you might have a point.
I sincerely hope that our government is keeping a very good eye on what’s happening over there and will miraculously do something that actually helps. I just don’t think the American people have the knowledge, interest, or will to be involved with that situation, and are more useful focusing on Oregon. It’s not that the Middle East isn’t important, as much as it is that we clearly aren’t up to fixing it.
There is very little any American politico could do to solve the 1400 year old civil war in Islam between the Shia and Sunnis.
We are seen as crusaders by far too many in the Arab world, to credibly wade into that minefield.
Hell we cannot conceive a way past our 150- year old domestic squabble.
How could we ever solve a much deeper, religiously based, philosophical schism.
Clean up our own internal messes, first;
Then and only then think of advising others on theirs ….
b, Moon of Alabama: The Saudi Execution Of Al-Nimr Was A Smart Move
A fascinating discussion in the comments after b kicks it off with a controversial take on Saudi motives.
Yes, this is important to watch and to make sure it doesn’t derail the negotiations going on about Syria (which might be one of the motives of stirring up a conflict right now). From Iran’s perspective, the US malarky about missile testing sanctions might be a reason to not move to calm ruffled feathers quickly but to echo the 1979 attack on the US embassy through not pre-emptively responding to a an attack on an embassy.
As for the folks at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, I expect the wildlife to eventually deliver some sadness on the “sovereign citizens” ripping off national land. But someone needs to point out the gross disparity between the treatment of these armed thugs and the peaceful protesters in Occupy who were evicted and had their property trashed. In garbage trucks. Or assert the precedent for the left to peaceably open carry in protest. The idea that rightwing speech is more valuable than everybody else’s is a highly repugnant American tradition.
I’ll second your recommendation for b’s take at MOA. The discussion not so much — mostly projecting the fall of KSA which is line with the hopes of the contributors.
From where I’m sitting the Saudis look to making an unnecessary sequence of strategically terrible mistakes.
And it seems the Syrian civil war is shaping up for the Middle East a lot like Spain’s did for Europe; in other words, not good. And similar implications of proxy factions with irreconcilable ideologies and ‘great power’ alliances widening into broader conflict.
This is potentially a big issue:
Here’s hoping cooler heads prevail among the House of Saud and soon.
Already suggested that Iran could come out on the short end of the stick again for attacking an embassy. Seriously stupid move by those in Tehran that did this. OTOH, KSA isn’t entitled to any empathy:
Since that Saudi failure led to the bombings of two US Embassies, 224 deaths and over 4,000 injuries.
Other than that I have neither a crystal ball nor the depth and breadth of knowledge even to begin to project where this goes from here.
RT — Bahrain, Sudan sever ties with Iran, UAE reduces number of diplomats
Looks as if the old gang — KSA, al Qaeda (OBL)/IS, Bahrain, Sudan are sticking together.
Just in: IBTimes — Al-Qaeda militants stone woman to death in Yemen
We’re now apparently off to the races:
And the Prime Minister of Iraq is blaming Sunnis? Crikey. I sense fear, recklessness and indecision in both camps. Next up; the Saudis publicly flaunting their disregard for US aspirations in the region.
It is sure to complicate any efforts at factional unity to fight ISIS in Iraq. Maybe they hire mercs?
Factional unity was never a prospect as far as the Sunnis are concerned, speaking of the leadership in Saudi Arabia and her close regional allies.
They were fighting the Shi’ites on two fronts already; Hezbollah in Syria and the Houthis in Yemen. No love lost; I’m guessing the detente with Iran was the last straw as far as the Saudis are concerned. Obama has shifted the centre of gravity of US alliances in the Gulf; it was always going to be messy. I have the Saudis figured for recalcitrant and insular; they soon will be constrained by little more than naked power.
Yep, a regular contributor @MoA, but not on all of his articles. I’m content being selective …
○ KSA and GCC states have pulled out of the US coalition against ISIS to favor military action in Yemen
Can even find some MoA links here @BooMan:
○ Advances after 100-day Russian Bombing Campaign in Syria
○ The West Lamenting Death of a Terrorist
[h/t MoA – Kenneth Roth’s Schizophrenic Positions On Zahran Alloush]
Not to forget, nearly a thousand Iranians died during the hajj in Mecca:
The 2015 Mina Crush disaster has increased tensions in the already-strained relationship between Saudi Arabia and Iran, led to calls from politicians in a number of Muslim nations for changes in oversight of Mecca and the Hajj, and bolstered opposition to King Salman among the senior members of the Saudi Arabian royal family.
○ Saudi Arabia set its modern-day execution record of 192 back in 1995
○ Cornell U. – Deatth penalty data-base for Saudi Arabia
There is no doubt in my mind that the Saudis did this to derail the Syria peace talks.
“You can safely ignore the idiots in Oregon”
No, you can’t.
No, you can’t. But I don’t want these guys to be fascist martyrs for the race wars.
I would send in a park employee with a smokey the bear hat and a book of tickets and have her ticket the men there for their violations. If they are inside the building they should be charged with breaking and entering. I’m sure that there’s a law against hunting rifles in a bird sanctuary.
Photograph them all. Send in a drone or two and catch them on film. Maybe a helicopter. But no gunfight if possible. We don’t need fascist martyrs.
The appropriate response, seen on the internet:
Guys. Oregon isnt under attack. Rednecks opened the door to a closed ranger station & are now on Facebook asking folks to bring them snacks.
Well, they should block the roads so that no snacks go in.
Some Portland folks are thinking of getting up a huge birding caravan to go out tomorrow. Any birds on your bucket list that might need watching? </snark>
I actually think that a thousand or so birders with binoculars, cameras, and the whole nine yards would be a marvelous reassertion of public land.
Quite honestly, if these guys didn’t take over a ranger station no one would know that they were there.
The most confrontational and dangerous thing they are doing is inviting people to come in and hunt and ranch on the Federally protected wildlife preserve, and claiming that they will use their guns against LEOs in order to defend the “rights” of the citizens.
This could end poorly.
Do you mean ending poorly like Cliven Bundy? Or what I would call ending nicely, i.e. FBI snipers blow all their heads off?
Martyrdom would be an undesirable outcome. But the destruction of animals and land at a preserve is highly undesirable as well.
I just read the linked story on the Oregon situation, and watched the “BREAKING MESSAGE FROM MARINE JOHN RITZHEIMER!” These wingnuts claim to be ready to illegally occupy the refuge for “years”, even if they fail to achieve their short- and long-term goals. It’s a right-wing Bonfire of the Vanities.
Love how “MARINE JOHN RITZHEIMER!” attempts to manipulate the Oregon ranchers to martyr themselves. Also love his “goodbyes” to his children and wife on behalf of his version of the Lost Cause. And how he complains that the founder of the Oath Keepers is insufficiently radical.
He seems nice.
It’s also schadenfreude-inducing to learn that the reason the arsonist ranchers are going back to prison is the enforcement of Federal mandatory minimum sentencing laws.
Hoisted with their own petard is the right wing here.
Richard Falk – Slouching Toward Global Disaster (longish but good recap of how the world got from there to here)
For those not familiar with the writer:
Why aren’t we allowed to talk about more than one topic at a time?
This is what comes of Obama surrendering to the father.
And if the next Waco or Ruby Ridge had happened you’d be bitching about that too. No matter what blame Obama. At least you’re consistent with this boring, tiresome act.
I dont blame the government for either of those things. But the fact is Cliven Bundy won.
Its your act that’s boring and tiresome: Obama can do no wrong, like an artist who unveils masterpiece after masterpiece to a reaction that when not bored is actively hostile, and if you disagree you’re racist.
Thing is chief I don’t think you’re a racist. Someone who thinks the White Progressive man/woman’s ice is colder but not a racist. But carry on.
Hey, an improvement over last time, great!
Are you saying there was reasonable and probabilistically viable a way for the Feds to win or at least not lose?
Are you saying there was a reasonable and probabilistically viable way for the militia movement to not win?
Because when this went down a very large part of the commenters here did not appear to see a good way out of that situation. Only bad ways and worse ways.
Figures that White Progressives would shrug at the idea that a bunch of White domestic terrorists could seize Government property and they get treated with kid gloves while unarmed Black folks get blown away by law enforcement because it’s easier to opine about the Middle East. SMH the more things change…
I think the responses here indicate that not all (or even most) white progressives shrug their shoulders over the situation in Oregon.
I don’t see why we’re supposed to choose between these 2 very disparate situations. I think I can walk and chew gum at the same time.
The situation in the ME has been addressed quite cogently by others, above, and is something that US citizens should be informed of.
OTOH, the situation in Oregon should also demand attention for various good reasons expressed also, above. I was infuriated with how Cliven Bundy was treated over his refusal to pay legitimate fees for use of BLM land. The fact that the govt put their tails between their legs and went home without doing anything was beyond the pale, imo.
Yes, BLM protestors routinely get thrown in jail or worse. Black youth are gunned down on our streets as a matter of course and ginned up Grand Juries give the PDs a pass. Also Occupy has been given, in the past, the SWAT Team treatment.
But a bunch of fascist dickheaded white sh*ts gets a big old pass from the US government. No, I don’t think that’s right, and I think it’s a topic to be discussed here and elsewhere.
It’s funny.
We can ignore Domestic Terrorists?
No, I don’t think so.
Let that have been Black Lives Matter taking over a local Park District Building, let alone anything federal..
the full bodybags would be lined up on the street.
If BLM or a group of armed Muslims had taken over federal government property we’d be getting wall to wall coverage on cable news and we wouldn’t be having White Progressives finger wagging about what’s more important.
The Yokel Haram story is just built for Twitter. You can say rewarding things about it in 140 characters.[1] People are saying shit that’s going to piss you off. It’s really easy to tweak people for partisan hypocrisy.[2]
On the other hand, the Saudi/Iran split is just another worrying step in a state of affairs that has been deteriorating for years. There’s no clear partisan angle and little room for pithy quips. One of our most important allies in the region just executed a guy for being the wrong religion and criticizing the government. In addition to being a horrible human rights violation in its own right, it’s also pouring more gasoline on an already raging fire of sectarian violence, and seems to be playing into the hands of the Iranians.
When it comes to Iran vs. the KSA, it’s really tempting to just sit back and root for injuries, except for the fact that millions of other people are going to be injured (or worse), too. The whole thing is both complicated and depressing. I gotta say I’m glad people aren’t Tweeting up a storm over it.
[1] Or even 11 characters, like the clever person (whose handle I’ve forgotten) who I stole the “Yokel Haram” joke from.
[2] Seeing people who were, just a few days ago, arguing that a 12 year old kid with a toy gun needed to die talking about how important it is to treat a bunch of grown-ass men with AR-15s with kid gloves is more than a bit infuriating.
I don’t particularly see anything that makes these people “terrorists”, although they are neo-Nazis and that’s worse. I also happen to think occupying buildings/land like this is a perfectly legitimate act of protest, even if it is criminal.
Of course, that doesn’t mean I want the government to ignore these people and do nothing. Their grievances are illegitimate, and if indeed they were people of color hellfire and brimstone would be raining down. Power dynamics are everything. If BLM protestors did this, it’s possible I’d support their cause. However, for the most part, violence like this does not build bridges with mass movements of people, and usually your cause suffers a net negative as a result.
Some people on the left decry the culture war, instead wanting to wage class war. But this is just another piece of evidence that everything follows from the culture war. It is the dominate theme of American politics.
Protest is legitimate, of course, but armed protest is insurrection. Even if no one does get shot, occupying a place with guns is fundamentally an act of violence. That’s why it’s terrorism.
I said it’s a fundamentally violent act, which is why I also said even if I were to support analogous actions of BLM protestors it is not necessarily a desirable tactic because it is violent. But I still think the inclusion of guns alone does not make this terrorism, nor an illegitimate form of protest. My viewing of this form of protest being legitimate does not mean I think it is legal (it is not), peaceful (it is not), or wise (fundamentally violence as a tactic rarely works for left wing causes, although it shouldn’t be completely disavowed).
Fixing that Oregon that Oregon thing is kinda easy. Let local law enforcement handle it. If they can’t send in Seal Team 6.
The Saudi Iran thing is a little tricky. But I see ole’ Bill is campaigning in NH for Hillary. So I’m thinking a no fly zone should do the trick. But really I’d rather wait for some words of wisdom from The Donald, snort snort.
I couldn’t disagree more. The idiots in Oregon are attempting to foment civil war, and it’s conceivable that they might succeed. That’s a much bigger story than Iran and Saudi Arabia being mad at each other, which they’ve always been.
I don’t actually see how you can separate them, because the militia movement is really just one face of something much larger that also extends to the Middle East. I think others have hinted at this, but it’s this aggressive attitude that is shared by many in the US and in the Middle East. It doesn’t have to be attributed to any race or creed, because it’s really a pattern of behavior. It’s the attitude that you have a right to use violence to get what you want.
At any rate, either or both of these situations could develop into something more, so we’ll just have to see. It sounds to me like it’s best to keep an eye on both of them.
Yes, but there is no corporate sponsor up there in Oregon. Quite a few pulling strings in our new Cold War by proxy.