Back in November, I made a considerable effort to raise objections to Nate Silver’s assessment that Donald Trump had no better than a 20% chance of winning the Republican nomination. Partly, I thought Silver was underestimating Trump’s chances. But I also objected to him telling us to “stop freaking out” because, as I saw it, things wouldn’t be any less catastrophic if Cruz, Carson or Rubio were nominated.
You know, I take a holistic view, and I think it’s a bad thing when one of our two political parties goes so deeply batshit insane that their “safe” choices are opposed to rape victims having the right to an abortion. Maybe some people are willing to fuck around on the theory that the Democrats can get some enormous LBJ-size victory if the Republicans nominate the modern equivalent of Barry Goldwater. But, let me tell you, Barry Goldwater was a moderate compared to these lunatics. And there’s no iron-clad rule that says that the Republican nominee can’t win.
Plus, it’s just dangerous and sad and needlessly difficult for everyone if one side of the political divide walks so far out on a limb that no one can reach them anymore. And that’s where we’re headed.
Well, Nate came around slowly, but the scales seem to have finally fallen from his eyes.
Recently, the race took an even stranger turn. There were stories like this one, from Philip Rucker and Robert Costa at The Washington Post, suggesting that party elites were warming to Trump. Soon after, Bob Dole was suggesting that Trump wasn’t such a bad guy, while Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley was appearing with Trump and urging voters to “make America great again.”
Importantly, these actions seem to have been taken mostly in opposition to Ted Cruz, instead of in support of Trump. Nonetheless, these reports caused me to renounce much of my remaining skepticism of Trump’s chances.
Now, the way that Silver crafts his mea culpa here is interesting, in that he kind of shields himself from criticism by saying that he was relying on the analysis of political scientists Marty Cohen, David Karol, Hans Noel and John Zaller. Their 2008 book, The Party Decides: Presidential Nominations Before and After Reform has been very influential and I’m not going to denigrate their work here.
Rather, I’m just going to explain why my instincts were a better indicator of where Trump would stand on the eve of Iowa than all Silver’s numbers and political science.
My experience with the modern Republican Party has been one of slowly growing awareness. I started out thinking that the Republicans were decent people who had different priorities and that it would be preferable to have a Democratic president but not catastrophic if we did not. The immediate excesses of the Gingrich Revolution began to make me wonder though. Shutting down the government seemed extreme. Their rhetoric about the Clintons and their investigations (remember Vince Foster, may he rest in peace) seemed deeply unhinged. But Bob Dole, as much as I distrusted him, wasn’t some Caligula.
Then they impeached President Clinton and published a salacious report about his affair with Monica Lewinsky. That’s when I knew that I’d misjudged these people. They were truly radicals.
I told anyone who would listen that George W. Bush was going to lead a radical revolution that would devastate this country. And that’s exactly what he did in every single way I could imagine and many ways that went beyond anything I could have ever imagined. You know the list: 9/11, weapons of mass destruction, Iraq occupation, Katrina, the Great Recession. Those were just the highlights. I have four years of archived material where I documented the atrocities of the Bush administration as they rolled in at sometimes a five-story-a-day clip. Environmental degradation, corrupt energy policies, politicization of the Justice Department, the Abramoff Scandal, Guantanamo and the corruption of our military justice system, the legalization of torture, rolling back the 1970’s intelligence reforms, Terri Schiavo and family privacy rights, outing CIA officers for no higher purpose than to win a 24-hour news cycle.
The whole enterprise was indistinguishable from a giant looting exercise, and all they left us was a smoldering husk of a country that was on its economic knees.
And, as much as I predicted this, what characterized it for me was the way I kept having to retreat from whatever credit I was willing to give Republicans. In the lead-up to the 2006 midterms, my greatest failure of analysis was that I believed that Republican lawmakers would have a sense of self-preservation and somehow distance themselves from the administration, particularly on a war that they knew had lost its casus belli from the get-go and was going horribly wrong. But they never did. They went right down with the ship.
That was a clue, and I learned from it. As a political movement, these folks are much less concerned with self-preservation than you would think. They are much more inclined to follow leadership than you’d expect. And, however bad you think they are, they’re actually worse.
Give them credit today, and your reward will be to apologize tomorrow.
That’s how things stood the day John McCain nominated Sarah Palin as his running mate. And that was the last day that the Republican Party of old existed even on paper.
The moment the organs of the GOP had to shift over to defending her preparedness and suitability to be a heartbeat away from the nuclear codes was the moment that their brain was disconnected from the rest of their central nervous system. From there, it was a short hop to climate science denialism, Birtherism, rape-don’t-get-you-pregnantism, Benghazism, and all the rest.
This is all a long way of saying that Donald Trump actually is an ideological match for the modern conservative movement. Silver insists that he is not and that this is one of the biggest reasons why he’s been predicting that Trump would peter out.
But that assumes that the key animators of the conservative movement are the familiar things like low taxes, a strong national defense, and a ban on abortion. Those aren’t the keys. The keys are 1) fear 2) hatred 3) greed and 4) a need to be led.
Trump encapsulates those almost perfectly.
Now, you can call my assessment harsh, but I didn’t get here lightly. I did not want to believe this. I came to this way of thinking kicking and screaming. But, since I gave up giving the Republicans credit for anything more, I haven’t been wrong yet.
So, when I saw Trump badmouthing McCain, I said it would help him when most people said it would sink his campaign.
I knew the base hated McCain to begin with, hated him twice-over for losing, and they’d love seeing a strong leader kick him in the teeth.
This isn’t the kind of analysis you’ll find in a political science paper or by poring over statistics. It’s raw and visceral and human. People are responding to Trump because they’re feeling xenophobic and because they want to see the Republican establishment insulted. They don’t really care about marginal tax rates or who’s been a consistent opponent of gay rights. They want someone who will get some revenge on their enemies.
So, if you start with the assumption that the base of the party likes a guy who spouts Birther nonsense more than a guy who is consistent on conservative issues and you understand that this is because he spouts Birther nonsense, you’ll do better predicting the outcome of these primaries. Hate trumps virtually everything with conservatives. But strength is important, too. Rick Santorum couldn’t get away with what Trump is doing because he doesn’t have the chutzpah for it. People would see right through Little Ricky, but Trump’s basically correct when he says that his followers are so blind that they’d support him even if he started shooting random people on Fifth Avenue.
People are coming around to this idea now because they have no other choice. They call it fascism or whatever, and you can call it what you want. But it’s not really new. It’s what’s been brewing here all along.
Now, finally, I don’t know that Trump will win the nomination. Maybe he won’t. But I don’t see a whole lot of distance between what he’s doing and what the rest of the candidates are doing. They’re all at least as radical as George W. Bush, and the gang they’d bring in with them is unquestionably much worse that the gang that came in in 2001. Most of these candidates are far, far to the right of Dubya on a host of issues, from Israel to climate to Islamophobia to the role of the federal government in education or medical policy.
There’s no longer even the pretense of anything compassionate about the conservatism of Ted Cruz or Ben Carson or Marco Rubio.
What I’m saying is, no system of analysis is perfect and even a solid one is only good until it isn’t. But, if you go on the theory that the conservative movement now controls the Republican Party completely, and that the conservative movement is mainly motivated by fear, avarice and a thirst for revenge, then you’ll do a lot better at predicting the winner of this nomination than the authors of The Party Decides.
Back in November, I made a considerable effort to raise objections to Nate Silver’s assessment that Donald Trump had no better than a 20% chance of winning the Republican nomination. Partly, I thought Silver was underestimating Trump’s chances.
Silver, and the rest of Versailles, couldn’t get it through their thick skulls that Trump wasn’t the equivalent of Cain, Fred Thompson or whomever. He had close to 100% name ID before he even entered the race. And the base secretly loathes Jeb Bush. Okay, maybe it’s not so secret anymore. But once Trump started insulting Jeb! and his numbers didn’t go down should have been a clue.
True, but one has to give credit where credit is due. As smart as Silver often is, Booman’s analysis has for some time been nothing short of brilliant. That’s why I come here every day. I’m surprised he hasn’t gotten more of a following. I still believe he will. Guy is too sharp to be ignored forever. This article is nothing short of outstanding. Access to Martin’s insights keeps me consistently more informed than most of my friends and colleagues. But for him, I’d know pretty much what they know.
Silver is most definitely not from Versailes. The two do happen to have been wrong about Trump’s electability in the GOP primaries, but not from the same position or reasoning.
I don’t know what numbers Nate was looking at, but my 9/1/15 observation:
Half or better of the GOP electorate has been “batshit crazy” since the end of WWII if not before.
Joe McCarthy had most of the GOP pols scared to death of him. And Nixon was only a slightly polished version of McCarthy. Kissinger has always been a scary loon. Ford had Rumsfeld and Cheney on his team. Reagan only appeared normal once he lapsed into Alzheimers.
As for GWB — my best argument for voting for Gore was that GWB would have the US back in Iraq for another war. Sadly, the GOP never disappoints me.
2006, 2008, and 2012 elections were easy calls. “We’re a little bit better” is more effective than the 2010 and 2014 “We suck less.”
“Half or better of the GOP electorate has been “batshit crazy” since the end of WWII if not before.”
I think “the crazy” won when the Taft wing took over the GOP party in 1912. It just went underground during the FDR era, since The Great Depression and WWII were such large forces.
via freeper gulch, for anyone still wondering: “oh dear god, why trump?” or “why cruz … ???”:
(but even “kit cat” is unable to be completely honest. it’s pretty clear that “even if sometimes” got dumped long ago in favor of “especially when” …)
“…and because they want to see the Republican establishment insulted.”
Dude, I agree with everything you are about in this post, but you HAD to see this coming. From 1994 and Newt bringing in the fundies, the BizRepugs haven’t given ANYTHING to the trailer trash, and reported comments by them reflect this.
DIDN’T WE ALL SEE THIS COMING? They kept VOTING for the rich dudes and never getting any scraps at the legislative table. Didn’t we ALL ask, “WHY are these dumb fucks voting against their own self interest while the Wall Streeters take their votes and submit bill after bill helping the rich looters loot some more?”
The trailer trash was used for 16 years, more or less, and eventually SOME of them got wise to it. But instead of simply going to the BizRepugs in office and imploring them to do SOMETHING on behalf of the stupids, the stupids decided to HIJACK the fucking rich dudes’ party.
I am not sure I specifically saw the Tea Party coming, but as soon as I caught wind of it, I thought, “Oh, yeah! Here comes payback time!”
THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS NOT MY FRIEND; HE WILL STAB ME IN THE BACK SOME DAY.
Well, back stabbing time is happening, as we speak.
And you’ve GOT to understand: If it wasn’t Trump, it would be somebody ELSE. With none of the party dudes pulling more than 11% or so, Trump not being in the race would only have shifted voters to other sociopaths. They would NOT switch to Rubio or Kasich or Christie. And the trailer trashers got their fill of rich people with Dubya – even if they DID have a fellow stupid – so The Jeb will get none of their votes.
That party NEEDS a Cruz and a Trump and a Carson. The other crazies were not PUBLICLY crazy enough, even though, if elected, their policies would all be the same. They NEEDED someone to display the anti-human pathologies IN YOUR FACE. That is what Cruz is doing – or at least TRYING to do – with his calmness. But everybody on God’s green Earth already knows how crazy Cruz is. Hell, the bastard may even give us a new word – “CRUZY”. Cruz makes Hitler look like a nice guy. So he isn’t snowing anybody by trying to not look as crazy as the other inmates. Not anybody besides fundies, that is; fooling fundies is too easy.
This is all ordained. They NEEDED to have this purging that is going on. It was was like Catholic priests buggering little boys, these fundies and BizRepugs together, in the first place. Now the little boys are wanting REVENGE. They want to see the rich dudes FRY in hell.
If the Dems can POSSIBLY screw this up and not get majorities in both houses of Congress AND the WH, they should be horsewhipped. They are running against CRAZY PEOPLE, for god’s sake. All they have to do is have the slogan, “PLEASE! Don’t vote for crazy people!”
Steve excellant point, however it was the actor playing president for the establishment bosses who brought the fundies in. Ronnie Reagan.
He was willing to play ball with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc. (Who auditioned quite a few politicians in 79-80)
Hell, Moral Majority executive director Robert Billings was a Reagan campaign adviser
If Nixon’s secret to sucess was the southern strategy,
Reagan added the fundie right sheeple voter to it and had two very sucessful political runs.
http://www.spingola.com/rise_of_the_religious_right.htm
Read the whole thing, it was the need of mindless followers that had the GOtPers following in the footstep of televangelists.
Instead of bilking the rubes just for money like the TV preachers, the politicos wanted their votes also.
Newtie was just jumping on the wingnut fundie gravy train for his own purposes.
The GOtP establishment has been fleecing the rank and file of the fundie movement since their arranged marriage.
The rubes have started to notice three decades later?
Thanks clif, you are exactly right Ronald the Great Satan kicked-off the whack job circus.
He also kicked off climate science denialism.
Not willing to overlook the fact that generally evangelicals were apolitical before ’76 (and supported birth control). So, Carter gets credit for opening the door to politics on a national level for them. GOP hucksters were simply more adept at exploiting them once the election of Carter demonstrated that it could be done.
Good point — Cruz is authentically nutso but wears a mask of sanity while Trump wears a mask of insanity to cover his cafeteria style positions on public policies. However, the one quality the GOP crazies prize most in conservative politicians is a tough guy persona. They liked Ike and Nixon, but they loved John Wayne, Joe McCarthy, and Reagan. At least the Bushes wore cowboy boots (and Poppy ate pork rinds) but most importantly they sent the US MIC abroad to kick some butt.
One of the best BooMan posts ever. I agree with every word.
I had a similar cathartic breakthrough a few years ago when I realized that I’d been assuming there was some kind of symmetrical balance between high-end liberalism and high-end conservatism — that, notwithstanding the ill-informed voters, you could find mature, erudite conservative “theory” at the top that would explain the need for lower taxes, invasions, etc. according to some kind of sophisticated metric someone had figured out from examining statistical data over the decades etc.
And I suddenly realized that this wasn’t the case — that even the “high end” conservatives were just winging it, based on pure ideology: they “knew” that giving tax breaks to the wealthy would improve the entire economy not because anyone had ever demonstrated it scientifically but because they just felt like it had to be correct. I realized that the most scholarly conservative thinker wasn’t any more reasonable or better informed than some random “low-information” voter…just better placed and more superficially eloquent.
The sooner the public at large comes to terms with this, the better (and I think, in a ghastly way, Trump is hastening this along). The whole concept that there’s some legitimate “two equal sides” balance between reasonable conservative ideas and reasonable liberal ideas is nothing but a polite, increasingly dangerous conceit; it doesn’t reflect reality.
The Democratic party is about as corrupt and self-serving as any political party in the world.
The Democratic party is literally unable to solve pretty much every single problem the US is facing. It just is. It’s a mix of liberals, progressives, and relatively sane conservatives, filling a particular role.
That said, the Republican party is literally throat punching this country to death. It has absolutely zero desire to solve problems, and instead exists as a hodge-podge of corporate totalitarians, oligarch fucktards, and social Libertarians who have no idea of how actual observable reality works on a day-to-day basis.
That’s the son of a bitch.
Ultimately, I pretty much loathe the Democratic party. I think if you asked and got honest answers, most loyal “Democrats” would agree. Yet, what fucking choice do we really have? I mean, how could I ever cast a vote for a Republican in 2016? I’m not suicidal, and I consider myself sane, so why would I go do something as stupid as vote for a Republican?
So here we are.
The BothSidesDoItTM myth is just that – a myth.
Democrats suck, but…fuck…at least they live and operate here in observable reality. They aren’t always on the side of the people, but most of them aren’t in favor of policies that will clearly-obviously make things absolutely terrible for everyone but the rich. And that’s why I end up scanning the ballot for the (D), ultimately.
Perhaps Sanders/Trump can change things. In a lot of ways, Trump’s candidacy offers sane, non-participants an opportunity to actually check things out. In some ways, Trump can even be a benefit to Sanders, although that aspect is often overlooked 10 months out as people are still freaking out that Trump may run the boards on us.
So, I’m glad that you’ve stepped back and taken a good, hard look at reality. It isn’t pretty. In fact, it’s downright horrid when you think about it. But, our votes still matter, regardless of what other people want you to think. If our votes didn’t matter, they wouldn’t be spending as much money and time as they do to restrict it. That’s a tell.
Just do your country a favor and any time someone wants to discuss politics with you, do so, but without emotion and avarice towards those who, in some ways, deserve it. I’ve “turned” Republicans into Democrats simply by laying out a narrative they could understand, rather than powerpoint bullets about why that person has been stupid/dumb/incompetent their whole life.
Hint: telling someone that they’re stupid for believing what they believe immediately turns them off when it comes to what you want to convince them of. Always and forever.
I bet you know people who can be persuaded. Weave a narrative, don’t just vomit facts onto them while insinuating that they are/were stupid…it doesn’t work like that and it never has.
Absolutely.
Also true but there’s more to it than just “a mix.” The “relatively sane conservatives” (and that’s exactly what they are, conservatives) hold all the power in the DP. There’s a little rump faction of “progressives” that periodically tries to run some more-or-less progressive favorite son for President (RF Kennedy, McCarthy, McGovern, T Kennedy, Jackson, Dean). And every time the progressives get slaughtered. McGovern is the exception: he actually got nominated only to get slaughtered in the general election — partly due to the incompetence of his own campaign but also partly due to the fact that the people who then controlled the ruling conservative wing of the party sandbagged him.
After every defeat, the progressives go back to doing what they do best: waiting for the next Presidential election. No organizing. No building of a base. No elaboration of a program. No taking over of state organizations to capture the resources that that would give them (in fact the situation at the state level is going backwards from a progressive point of view). Say what you will about the far right, they’re far better at this game than the progressives in the DP are.
This year the progressives’ favorite son is Bernie Sanders. And along with that, their conceit that demographic determinism is ultimately going to save them from a catastrophic loss. But for Sanders to even get nominated — much less elected — requires a boatload of magical thinking that the record of the progressive rump of the DP does nothing to support.
If you think the Democrats are as corrupt as any other political party in the world, you don’t know shit about the rest of the world. Off the top of my head:
the PRI and PAN in Mexico, the CCP, all the parties in Russia and Ukraine. The National Front. Whatever the hell Berlusconi represented. All the parties of Nigeria. The LDP of Japan.
And that’s without examining the party systems of Brazil or South Africa or a host of other countries. You think the Democrats are as bad as Likud or the other far right parties of Israel? Please.
Maybe he was referring to the Thai Democrat Party (Phak Prachathipat)).
No, he was referring to the ponies inside his head.
.
Rahm Emanuel, Mike Madigan, John Cullerton. That’s the Democratic Party here. Oh, and such lesser lights as Anita Alvarez and Joseph Berrios (who was a paid lobbyist while in the state legislature and whose law firm will, for a price, contest the assessment he gives you, sweet). That’s the face of the Democratic Party I see and yes, it is thoroughly corrupt.
OTOH, the Republican Party is Jim Oberweis, Bruce Rauner, Joe Walsh. Bat shit crazy fat cats.
That’s your choice – corrupt machine pols or whacko fat cats.
The real problem in the IL Democratic Party begins and ends with Mike Madigan. If he was gone most of the rest of it would end up resolving itself.
He’s the Kingfish for sure. Or is that Catbird? Rahm wants to be but he’s so thoroughly hated he can only get reelected by having three or four opponents split the vote.
Rahm thinks he can be Daley but he doesn’t have the personality for it. If he wants to be popular he actually has to fix stuff unlike Daley who could just sweep it under the rug.
No, I don’t believe that the Democratic party is just as corrupt as any of the political parties you named.
But, that should be obvious, since I literally said the Democratic party is corrupt, and then immediately went on to say that the Republican party is attempting to murder this country.
So, if you want to focus on defending the Democratic party against the Nazi party, or Caligula, then go for it.
I’m much more concerned with explaining to people why the Democratic party is the only real option as of right now, and how to go about explaining it to family and friends without pissing them off and making them tune you out before you even say anything.
We just have a different set of priorities, I guess.
OTOH, Caligula knew how to throw a party!
Interesting but you’re changing the subject. I’m not talking about corruption in political parties: I’m talking about the underlying thinking for the liberal/conservative positions.
If they were conflicting scientific theories, conservatism would be gone by now, because it’s been demonstrated that it proceeds from false premises and doesn’t deliver the results it promises.
Just to pick one of thousands of recent examples, The FBI director admitted last year that his faith in “stop and frisk” has nothing to do with any crime/arrest statistics; he just assumes it’s correct (because it fits into his world-view). (Okay, two examples: the same thing happened to the “broken window” theory: it turned out that some “law-and-order” conservatives just made it up; it isn’t reflected in any statistical crime data anywhere.)
I’m not talking about corruption. That was essentially a throwaway line to dismiss the notion that one party stands for Truth, Justice, and the American Way, with the other party being nothing but Hitlers, Stalins, and Saddam Husseins.
I’m attempting to weave a narrative. This is how I speak with southern-southern baptist anti-abortion Republicans. You have to disarm them, or you lose them. When I say disarm, I mean that you have to sneak very carefully past their cognitive dissonance filter which alerts them every time some libruul is trying to get them to vote for the commie. So…
I start out by saying/admitting/proffering that political parties in general suck. This is key. If I just start spouting facts and figures, with charts and citations, I’ve lost them at best, and pissed them off at worst. You don’t go explaining to someone that they’ve been suckered for their entire life by a bunch of morons, because it’s pretty clear that the someone is going to see that as you attacking or judging them.
After I sneak past their filter, I then make sure to explain how even though the Democratic party isn’t great, it is the only party worth voting for as the Republican party 1: doesn’t care about you and the issues you care about and 2: wants to enact policies that will actively hurt you economically while helping the richest people in the solar system.
You self-identified as a former centrist-y type. Well, you’re easy to reach, and I think the Democratic party has a few more sane Centrists they can pull into the tent. But ultimately, Liberals/Progressives need to start converting people who literally don’t know much better, and who generally vote for a brand rather than policies. It can be done.
My post was simply the way that I speak with someone when trying to get past their REPUBLICANS GOOD! DEMOCRATS BAD! filter. Notice, by the way, how it tripped up people who responded to me, who likely self-identify as members/supporters of the Democratic party.
I was able to piss of a couple of Democrats when 99.9% of my post was describing how the Republican party is essentially evil and the only real option is to vote for the Democratic party.
😉
But, again, this is a totally different topic.
You’re talking about 1) making comparisons between the two parties and 2) what it takes to get voters to support candidates from those parties.
Whereas I’m talking about liberal/progressive vs. conservative theory and what happens when you put them next to each other and realize they’re not intellectually symmetrical — that there’s legitimate, robust, evidence-based thinking on one side and not the other.
I understand what you’re getting at. As a centrist, you’re still rooted here in observable reality, and have dropped the notion that Republican party is anything other than batshit insane, whereas at best, there are a few moonbat Democrats who usually never rise above the level of dog catcher.
All I did was extrapolate to who is and isn’t reachable, and how it can be done. I mean, do with it what you will. I feel like I know how to reach people who are reachable. You were a centrist so you figured it out on your own, but I bet you have friends and family, some of which vote Republican as a brand rather than for policy.
Be proactive with them.
That’s all.
Where are you getting this “centrist” label? When did I ever say anything of the kind? I’m extremely liberal to the point of being a near-revolutionary socialist.
For the third time, all I’m saying is that I once believed there was a robust theoretical core to conservatism, as there is to liberalism, but I’ve come to realize that I was wrong; it’s not symmetrical like that (despite the natural desire to be fair and/or embrace Hegelian principles).
I keep restating this simple, abstract idea over and over and you keep turning into some kind of crazy rant about the two political parties and how “crazy” they both are. I don’t know where you’re getting any of this. If you want to make this speech, fine, but don’t kid yourself that it has anything to do with what I’m saying here.
“Where are you getting this “centrist” label? When did I ever say anything of the kind?”
Well, from the very post I started replying to.
“I had a similar cathartic breakthrough a few years ago when I realized that I’d been assuming there was some kind of symmetrical balance between high-end liberalism and high-end conservatism — that, notwithstanding the ill-informed voters, you could find mature, erudite conservative “theory” at the top that would explain the need for lower taxes, invasions, etc. according to some kind of sophisticated metric someone had figured out from examining statistical data over the decades etc.”
If you’re a “near-revolutionary socialist”, that would place you on the leftward “high-end liberalism” side of politics; yet you used to believe that both high-end liberalism and high-end conservatism were…”symmetrical[ly] balanced”.
I’m not sure why you’re focusing on centrist-y. If you at some point believed that both “far ends” of the political spectrum were essentially the same in terms of reasoning, then you didn’t understand what far-left socialism and far-right fascism really were. Which is fine, but it means that on balance, you must have been much more to the center than the average “high-end liberal” who could give you a laundry list of reasons why the far-right was batshit insane and literally dangerous.
That’s why. I took your words and assumed that after your “cathartic breakthrough” that you finally moved leftward.
I mean, if you were a “near-revolutionary socialist” and yet believed that the far-right’s politics weren’t batshit insane and dangerous, why describe yourself as a socialist? Even describing yourself as a socialist of any caliber within the United States inherently places you way to the left of the Democratic party, and essentially in a different solar system of a conservative.
But, still, that doesn’t matter.
I’m not lecturing you. I’m not giving you a pep-talk.
I’m replying to a post I found interesting, that is, YOUR post, with my own little bit of information that I think adds to what you said. Additionally, I post because while you may or may not read what I write or reply, someone else may, who can understand what you said, and what I said, and use it to be proactive and constructive in politics.
There is no offense or judgment or denigration of what you wrote meant. If you’ve been a socialist your entire life and just misunderstood real far-right socialism, then fair enough. Understood. But when you use words like “cathartic” when describing coming to knowledge that the far left isn’t even remotely as delusional and deranged as the far right, it’s not like I’m divining from sheep entrails that you may have been more centrist-y than you are now as a self-described “near-revolutionary socialist”.
You mean you treat people with whom you disagree as adults and show them some respect? Well, we’ll have none of that attitude here!
I try my best. It isn’t always easy, but if you bring emotion into a political disagreement, it’s almost always counterproductive.
The mayor of Cleveland should declare that the Cleveland convention center (where the GOP nominating convention will be held) is currently a “gun free zone”, BUT that policy will be reversed for the GOP convention.
Because FREEDUM!
Oh, and all of the (unionized!) convention center workers will be encouraged to open-carry.
If Gov. Kascich wants to overturn this policy, he’s welcome to try. If the GOP wants to have a “gun free” convention, they can try and impose the policy on their people, but they don’t get to take away the 2nd Amendment rights of the Union Goons. Tough shit, assholes.
Nice post- My kids, who are now young adults, have never known a republican party that wasn’t nuts like this. The most hopeful thing that I think about this is that we are in the process of one political party going away. The problem with that is that it is a decades long affair, and it ends up with the Democratic party being split apart as well.
I’m one who never thought Trump would be the nominee. I still think Trump won’t be the nominee (but I’m no longer willing to bet anything on it) for a very simple reason: I don’t think he WANTS to be the nominee.
Look, so far, Trump has spent next to nothing of his own $$. He’s had a ball. He’s got the adulation his ego requires (re: Don’t call him a narcissist), he’s on everyone’s mind, no one has dared to call him out (re: CNN should pay ME to debate), no one has made him actually defend ANY of the outrageous statements he’s made. But that will change once he becomes the nominee.
Remember the infamous Clinton machine? the Trumpster will have to face that one ALONE. I don’t think the R establishment will be willing to take many hits for the “team” in his case. Regardless of the D nominee.
The Clinton “machine” is not the sole property of WHC or HRC. It is an intricate political establishment whose continued existence is interdependent and will continue for the next few cycles (at least), regardless of the fates of its masthead leaders. Burned Earth is not and never has been a mark of a successful machine. The next election is just down the road, and Dick Nixon will be back to kick around.
Everybody on this site has said, at one time or another, that the R Establishment has lost control of this tiger. Karma is biting the asses off the conceited rich people who thought they could control these people.
“…the conservative movement is mainly motivated by fear, avarice and a thirst for revenge, then you’ll do a lot better at predicting the winner of this nomination than the authors of The Party Decides. “
Nails, hammers, heads.
Nate is a numbers guy – like myself in the end. But unlike him, I have worked on campaigns. I have never thought endorsements mean very much. I can think of some rare exceptions: Kennedy in Iowa in 2004 and perhaps in 2008.
So I thought his book was wrong.
As a numbers guy Trump looked like previous insurgents in the GOP – Forbes, Bachman, Cain. All of them flamed out, and I do not believe Trump will get the nomination in the end.
The rise of Cruz was pretty easy to predict – and one which Booman completely missed. If you look at the numbers of past religious conservatives, it made sense he would rise as his competition on the right faded (Jindal, Santorum, Huckabee)
Both Cruz and Trump unusual though. Trump in his ability to keep and even expand the lead, Cruz in his ability to build an organization beyond Iowa (something Santorum, Huckabee and Robertson did not).
At this moment Carson’s vote is holding up in Iowa – and he may take enough to let Trump win. That would hurt Cruz, but in the end it probably accelerates the one on one contest between Trump and an establishment candidate, one that I don’t think Trump will win.
But all of the talk ignores one thing: campaigns and events matter. About 35% of voters in Iowa and New Hampshire decide in the last week. And the national race will be remade by those two contests.
So anyone crowing about their predictions doesn’t know what they are talking about, in my opinion
I think you might want to revisit what I wrote about Cruz. You keep patting yourself on the back at my expense, but you’re premature and you’re taking it too far.
What I said was that Cruz was so unpopular with his colleagues that he’d find no surrogates for his message and that he’d have difficulty breaking out. I also said that we so loathed that the establishment would not prefer him to Trump.
Implied in that is what you’re seeing now, which is folks like Dole and Grassley and today I hear there will be another “big name” coming out and essentially endorsing Trump not because they like him but because they hate Cruz so much.
Hell, even the governor of Iowa straight-up said he wants Cruz (and only Cruz) to lose his state’s caucuses.
This is what I meant when I said his campaign would go nowhere.
I also said he’d get a bump in the polls over the fall, but that it wouldn’t last.
So far, everything is about where I expected it to be (including Kasich sweeping establishment newspapers endorsements in New Hampshire), with the only thing off a bit is the strength of Cruz’s ground game.
So, I didn’t “miss” the “rise of Cruz.”
I predicted he’d have his moment.
I also said he was more convincing as Trump’s caddie, and he should have stayed in that role.
Yea – on Cruz you were just wrong. He has had more than his moment – and honestly you were pretty nasty when I predicted his rise.
More than a moment?
If he wins Iowa, I’ll concede your point.
Otherwise, he had a predicted bump.
Remember, it was this projected bump I was seeking to explain and minimize in significance.
dKos: Ted Cruz’s dad Rafael says that public schools are a communist conspiracy–is also a liar.
Interesting take from a man that allegedly graduated from the UT-Austin. But would add to the reasons why Ted was sent off to elite Ivies for undergrad and law school.
Good post. When you next address the subject, you might think about including a list of countries that would be good to emigrate to if a Republican takes the White House.
Real Americans stay and fight for their country.
That’s the spirit.
People on the left bemoan the fact that people they call “crazies,” stupid,” “trailer trash” etc. are supporting Trump. These people are not radical in any sense of the word. They are not radically stupid, crazy or genetically devolved. What they are is the vast middle of America.
Nixon’s silent majority.
The “average” of the intelligence bell curve.
The elitist left literally despises them. It ignores their very existence and tries to push the country into positions that repel them on any number of levels. Those positions may be debated as being right or wrong, moral or immoral, but the left does not debate. It mocks. It elites. It acts as if it is above the daily strife, considering itself too good such things. Meanwhile that vast middle goes about its business. It gets up every day and goes to work. Failing that it looks for work. It drives busses, it joins the armed forces; it becomes government workers; it teaches school; it farms; it runs small businesses; it watches mindless TV shows and roots for its sports teams; it tries to survive and provide for its children; it doesn’t get much involved in the theoretical sides of politics…it short, it does all of the unglamorous-but-not-shit work of the country and consumes mass media at its middleness level. (That’s why it’s called “mass” media. Duh.) The shit work? That work is left to those whose skin colors conveniently mark them as semi-untouchables.
Every decade or so it gets very pissed off at the elitism of the “superior” classes and finds a vessel for its anger. Nixon. Reagan. Bush II to some degree. And now Trump.
And every time this happens the liberals look down their Ivy League noses and publicly bemoan the existence of such troglodytes. And then those liberals get their asses whipped.
Over and over and over again.
And…here we are once again.
Prepare for your whippin’, leftinesses.
Or…stop talking down to Trumpism and stand up and fight!!!
Try talking to these people as if they are human beings.
They are, y’know.
Later…
AG
They’re racist mostly; sexist and homophobic, too. Blinded by it on so many levels. And monsters in a way because of it, all the while they work their crap jobs and endure their crap lives along the way. And they’re not so stupid as you say (average on the bell curve in re intelligence) that they’re incapable of seeing the racism, sexism, and homohatred they harbor and how it jades them.
In re talking to them as if they are human beings, we’ve done that, you know. Most of us, for years and years. They were our parents, and brothers and sisters. Talking to them was the only option sitting at the dinner table every day, at picnics with aunts, uncles, and cousins and Saturdays, or forced to watch football with them on Sundays. But it’s hard to talk to them when they’re denying the existence of fundamental human rights because they find women, blacks, and gays fundamentally inferior.
How’d those conversations go for you when you talked with them?
How’d those conversations go for me when I talked with them?
Once I realized what was happening, I mostly listened.
With open ears.
What did I hear?
I heard fellow human beings, mostly. People trying to figure it all out…from their own positions and perspectives. I didn’t meet up with a sociopath in the lot. Not a one. Not on the evidence of their own lives, anyway. The same dinner tables; the same picnics, same TV sports, same diners, same bars.
The same people that you are calling “monsters.”
Why do you ask?
You write:
Yes.
They are indeed “…racist mostly; sexist and homophobic, too.”
It’s the “monsters” and “crap lives” parts that bothers me. Bothers the shit out of them, too. Makes ’em wanna lash out. But they are not “monsters,” most of them. Their racism, sexism, homphobism and whatever other “isms” trouble you were socially generated and genetically enforced by the societies in which they were raised. “Socially generated” is an easy one to understand, it’s the “genetically enforced” part that is usually missed. By that term I mean that they are simply not smart enough…not gifted enough, not adventurous enough by nature…to be able to overcome their original societal imprinting.
If they are “monsters,” most of them are at the very least blameless monsters on some level.
So…how do you tame a monster? Make it feel ashamed? Whip it? Impose totally unacceptable…to the monster anyway…constrictions on its natural tendencies? That may work for a while, but you will have a very unhappy monster. If it’s big enough, it will surely eventually turn on its masters.
Or do you apply a more…I hesitate to use the word these days, but I mean it in the original New Testament sense…”Christian” approach. You know…love thy neighbor? Forgive? Understand? Educate? Not “You monstrous fucks!!! Get back in line and live your crap lives with your crap families!!!”
You write “…they’re not so stupid as [I] say (average on the bell curve in re intelligence)…” and obviously consider yourself more intelligent than are they. But you are making the same mistake that you accuse them of making. You are demonizing the demonizers!!!
Hmmmm…maybe you’re not so smart, either.
Maybe none of us are as smart as we think. On all sides of the battleground.
Hmmmmm…
Let us think.
“Average on the bell curve of intelligence” taken world-wide is probably very stupid seen from a universal perspective. How smart are any os uf compared to the infinite wisdom of the universe? Really. The difference in intelligence between Joe the Plumber and Albert Einstein or Mahatma Gandhi is just about the size of a subatomic particle within a strand of spider web in the eyes of Infinity. In other words, in the long view it an’t shit.
Speaking of Gandhi…he had a lot of interesting things to say. Here’s one of them:
Here’s another:
And here’s a third:
Think on it.
We…the so-called “left”…haven’t done so well. On the evidence of the true state of the union…a state that is well into the process of welcoming Trumpism, a state that supports its police overreactions, its far more destructive military overreactions and its overreachingly destructive Permanent Government plutocracy’s actions…on the evidence of that alone we have failed since the JFK/RFK/MLK murders to make much permanent forward progress.
Could we be going about it all wrong?
I think so.
On the evidence.
AG
Appreciate your more universal perspective on this. Good to remember; easy to forget. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Good gawd. I find myself in fundamental agreement with Arthur Gilroy for the first time.
Keep paying attention, JoelDanWalls.
Don’t believe the (
leftiness) so-called “common wisdom.” There’s more going on here than meets the leftiness common eye.AG
I agree that all Americans should try to engage each other in respectful dialogue. The Trump supporters are uninterested in that. They want to destroy and oust from the American land and culture people they despise.
You seem to want us to reason with people who desperately want to deny my neighbor the right to be treated fairly and equally by law enforcement or the Justice system, or to marry the person they love, or to join a Union, or to have a decent paying job, shelter and food, or to have access to affordable health care, or protecting themselves from having our planet tossed into chaos and death from climate change, or from staying in this country, or from having equal access to the vote. These people happily and eagerly blame the powerless for their lack of power.
These points of view are strongly held by many to most conservatives in the Unired States. There certainly is a significant portion of these voters who can be talked into more reasonable positions. But these positions are generally unsupported by majorities of Americans, and we must use our campaign time well.
A principle of skilled canvassing is “don’t waste time at the door trying to win an unwinnable vote. Move on to the next door.” We don’t need the votes of unpersuadable racists or sexists or Dominionists to win. Trying to persuade them to abandon the Republican Party is time poorly spent. And I will note in your summary of discussions with them that they appear to have been completely disinterested in listening to you say anything other than what they believed in.
I didn’t say that it would be an easy or quick job, centerfield. It would be at least a start if we…the supposed “good guys”…could refrain from thinking of them as storybook monsters. They’re people. They are human beings, and that guarantees flaws. Most of them…not the sociopaths, not the life-long bullies and haters, not the daily bar fighters and wife-beaters, just feet-on-the-ground working people…are sincere in their beliefs. If you are going to try to change someone’s mind, the vey first thing you must do is understand why they believe what they believe, even if it is totally antithetical to your own beliefs. Once you get to that point it is impossible to demonize them, and only then do you have a possibility of reaching them.
Take yourself. i don’t know you, but I will guess that you…like any number of us including myself…have had relatives who were definitely not liberals, to say the least. Relatives who had long and deeply held prejudices against other races or creeds, relatives who voted straight Republican for all of their lives…whatever. I certainly did. When I was a child they were all inordinately kind to me, my brothers and my mother and father. They were essentially well-meaning people who had been miseducated by their upbringing to hate and fear certain other groups.
In my case, one side of my family was immigrant Catholic Irish stock…NYC Dems back to the Tammany Hall days. The other side was old…back to the mid-1600s…working-class, NYC area (Long Island) Dutch/English/Scots Irish Protestant Republican. Both sides were natural enemies of the other. It was an interesting mix, to say the least. But on the other hand, both sides…once they accepted the fact that my mother and father were serious about their marriage and taking good care of their family…loved and cared for that family and the other families that comprised their circle. They went to church on Sunday; they prayed; they believed in heaven and hell and they absolutely loathed most Jews, Italians, Hispanics, Asians and Blacks, just for starters. Both sides. And forget about homosexuals or free love advocates!!! They were headed straight for hell with no chance of redemption whatsoever.
But…they were fine, upstanding people at the same time. They gave to charities; if hey saw someone in trouble… no matter what their ethnicity…they would help. A bundle of contradictions, to say the least.
I believe that a great deal of the U.S. electorate today…although certainly much more broadly mixed racially and generally a century or so more educated about other races and styles of life…resembles my own grandparents in their position vis á vis “the others.” That is…until they are forced by circumstances, education, culture, good argument or whatever else it takes…they will remain in their inherited, miseducated positions and opinions. I do a great deal of teaching in my specialty, from 3rd graders right on up to graduate students, and if here is one thing that I have learned from my experience it is this:
DON’T INSULT THEM!
It’ll get you nothing but failure.
A kid isn’t trying? A grad student is sloughing off? Someone seems to have little aptitude for the task at hand? OK…give them what you can. But if you try to embarrass them…if you in some way demonize them…they are lost to you.
Lost.
Of course there are some who are unreachable no matter what you do. So it goes. Not very many.
In the case of an election like this one I think the same metric holds true. Sure, there are some voters who are unreachable, but not a majority. Not nearly. However…call them “monsters,” call them stupid, call them names?
You’ve lost them.
And you have quite possibly lost the election as well.
That’s my take on it, anyway, and I stand by it.
Later…
AG
I hear you on much of this. Know that I have been unable to keep any relationship with my oldest brother, the brother with whom I had by far the best relationship, a relationship which lasted into my forties. Our disagreement on politics was only a fraction of the cause of the end of our relationship, but his complete disrespect for my professional political work was one of the things which convinced me that our relationship was toxic and beyond repair.
I’m interested in the fact that you believe that Trump will win in November unless a large number of people currently identifying as Trump voters are convinced to vote for a Democrat in November. There is a ton of evidence which reveals that this is not so, yet you persist in this claim.
Seeking votes from the 100 million+ voters who have been ignored, ridiculed or hated by the Trump campaign will bear more fruit than trying to convert people who are believe that Trump will deport all undocumented immigrants, and will make the Mexican government pay for and build a big wall across the Southern border.
If you think that Trump is so horrrible, why do we not hear from you stories about the things you have said to Trump supporters or people who are not planning on voting for the Democratic candidate to try to persuade them to vote against the Donald? The idea that you would keep your opinions to yourself fly against the face of what we have experienced at the Frog Pond.
Those in the Frog Pond appear to me…most of them…to be at least somewhat educable. That’s my fervent hope and prayer, anyway. The same does not hold true…at least on the level of influence that I hold with them, anyway…with the people to whom I am referring in my above posts. All I can usefully say to them is that yes, the Permanent Government on both sides of the mythical “aisle” has failed them and their country as a whole, that the centrist RatPubs and DemRats all work for the same corporate masters. The understand that idea in a quick hurry!!!
Bet on it.
AG
It’s worth noting that your PermaGov response that you gave to these white disaffected voters was a response which supports their love for Trump. Your shrug of the shoulders on the rest of it, which you describe here as essentially “it wouldn’t have helped for me to talk about how horrible and dangerous I believe Trump’s campaign is,” appears to be a shirking of your role in the discussion. It’s also very condescending to these people that you claim you know to essentially write them off as not educable.
I’ll also point out that if your discussions with non-white voters center on your PermaGov frame, and you support the views of those non-white voters who are disaffected with the President and push back against those who support the President with the lack of nuance you display here, then you are serving Trump’s campaign there as well.
Understanding is not support. And futile argument is…except for here, apparently…not one of my specialities.
I do not find them “uneducable,” centerfielddj. I think that they have been miseducated by an academic and media system that is geared towards doing just that.
Miseducation in order to control.
It’s pretty much worked, too.
So far.
But that’s breaking down now. The Trump and Sanders movements are both symptoms of that breakdown. As I have said numerous times here, if Bernie Sanders can:
1-Win the nomination against he concerted power of the PermaGov-controlled DNC…just as Trump is winning against the PermaGov-controlled RNC.
and
2-Run an effective campaign that offers real hope for change with a humanitarian slant rather than Trump’s decidedly anti-humanitarian posturing…especially if he can get Elizabeth Warren to run with him…
Then we might just be spared the awful specter of Trumpism controlling this country for 4 to 8 years.
If not?
If not, the ongoing miseducation of the voting public is way past my own meager power to reverse. I can’t even reach many of the people on this so-called “progressive” site.
You included.
Argue with these people at a dinner table or in a bar? When I can’t even talk to supposed allies without getting all kinds of stupid shit in return?
Not a chance.
If the country is going to go to hell in a Trump-made handbasket, I can do nothing more about it than what I have done with my life so far.
So it goes and I hear it’s very nice in Scandinavia this decade.
The day Trump is sworn in will the day Malcolm X’s chickens begin to seriously come home to roost.
Bet on it.
Later…
AG
You didn’t understand these white voters’ disaffection from government, you affirmed it. You followed that by allowing them to misguidedly state that Trump was the best answer to their disaffection and you declined to share your alternative views of Trump.
Your summaries of your conversations with these voters almost certainly would have the result of driving these people deeper into the Trump camp. If you are telling the truth about your views of the Trump campaign, it may be worth reconsidering your passivity.
You’re right. I am going to be…not passively, but certainly disinterestedly…neutral with you too from now on. Keep telling me what you think you think. I’ll add it to my understanding of your type.
AG
Food for thought:
http://workingamerica.org/frontporchfocusgroup
“Although the media are generally claiming the white working class for Donald Trump, more than half (53%) of those with whom we spoke are still undecided, trying to sort out their own views against a backdrop of economic uncertainty and social churn. They are perplexed by the large number of candidates; influenced by Trump’s lopsided media exposure; unanchored from traditional party loyalties; eager for information from trusted sources; and longing to be heard and to feel like their concerns and their votes matter.
As our canvassers went door-to-door in four counties over 20 days asking people what they care about, and which candidate best reflect their concerns, they were startled by the mash-up of ideas that they encountered, sometimes in the same individual. For example, there was the man in Wadsworth who supported Trump because he wants to repeal Obamacare, yet struggled because he has multiple sclerosis as a preexisting condition; he did not make the connection between the two until his conversation with the canvasser.
“
Yes. But,
But to extend the metaphor, in my opinion they have long since sawed off the limb and fallen into the bottom of their Royal Gorge of eternal white supremacy. They’re long gone.
From WAPO:
Guess who has best tapped into that vein of dissatisfaction?
Unca Donald, of course!!!
And who exactly has a Dem’s chance in hell of convincing them that he’s wrong?
I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised when I went to do a Google image search for the term “Sanders Warren.” Try it yourself. There are seemingly hundreds of “Sanders/Warren” images already online.
Hmmmmm…
Later…
AG
White privilege in decline, Christian privilege in decline. Resentment and victim feelings ensue.
Thus, fear and anger over losing the white privilege/Christian privilege they value so highly.
You are just proving AG’s original point. You despise these people and consider yourself superior.
I think of myself as better informed.
You don’t like? Whatever.
I can’t believe that it took you until the GWB administration to understand that Republicans hated any form of government other than police and military because they wanted freedom for the capitalist to do whatever the hell they wanted regardless of the cost to society. Once the Republicans got into power their agenda was to loot the economy and change the political structure so they could remain in power. I also can’t believe you think this was some sort of movement or worse yet, a political revolution since it has always been a minority position.
I have believed for a very long time that the forces that govern our politics are populist forces, both positive and very dark. If those dark forces as you say are propelled by fear, hatred, greed and a need to be led, how is that different from Germany in the 1930s, or for that matter, the USA, British or French of that same period? There was lot of international Big Money wanting to choose Hitler as the answer to the failure of democracy in the 1920s with the Great Depression. We and the world were very lucky FDR chose the positive forces because this was a real decision we faced. We are just one more financial meltdown away from facing that same decision again with the potential candidates on both sides already in place.
What has happened to the Republicans is not a movement or political revolution but the Big Money manipulation of the dark populist forces gone horribly wrong. It is indeed dangerous for the status quo to get the pitchforks to come out for political gain and the Republicans are now paying the price. There is no doubt the pitchforks are out with this being the year of the populist both dark and positive. The winner will be the side who understands this and uses it to their advantage.
I’ve always been fascinated by the corporatist trying to repackage popular culture and sell it back to us because it never really seems to work no matter how much money they pour into it. The problem they always face is the magical quality of the truth to cut through all the bullshit.
The questions for Democrats is are we going to go with a status quo candidate or with a positive force populist candidate in the year of a populist political upheaval.
I don’t know if this is on topic or not. But I’m getting it off my chest. The Democratic party mainstream is not liberals and progressives. It’s people of color. There seems to be a feeling in the comments within this thread that Democrats are worthless. They aren’t, in my opinion. They may not always be effective (in protecting unions, in raising wages, etc.) but those are their consistent goals. And like any party, there are elements that have to consider their constituents (like financial institutions — see Chuck Shumer) or people who grow corn.
As for Republicans, my experience with family members and neighbors who are Republicans suggest that they are befuddled by the Trump/Cruz ascendancy. They are kind of waiting for sanity to resume in their party. They aren’t nuts or homophobic or xenophobic. They are feeling powerless right now. One said to me that if Trump or Cruz is the nominee they either won’t vote or will vote for some independent candidate. Can’t see themselves shifting to Democrats. Think about the Phily suburbs, the Main Line. What will those good old-fashioned Rockefeller Republicans do? They make up the bulk of Republican voters, I believe. Small business people (who have bought the lie for a long time that the Republicans are good for small business). People who are socially liberal but financially conservative. What will they do? Trump and Cruz are an embarrassment to them.
Sanity prevails outside the spotlight.
As almost 46% of the electorate went with McCain/Palin, it’s very difficult to see that there are any “Rockefeller Republican” voters left in the GOP. Trump/Cruz are no more nutso than Palin (and she’s was on a ticket with an old guy that had been receiving treatments for melanoma). And both Trump and Cruz vied for Palin”s endorsement. So, they are either down with nutso or too racist to vote for the black man.
“Sanity prevails outside the spotlight. “
Depends on where you are. PA and North? Yeah, they’re sane. Some are pretty nasty, but for the most part the Rs are sane.
CO and West (excluding Idaho)? Ok, I’ll grant you that one.
EVERYWHERE ELSE??? Not so much. In the Deep South is says something when you declare yourself to be Republican … and that something is racist, homophobic and science denying.
In Idaho, it says you’re all of the above AND you probably support Naziism. You are certainly tolerant of the Aryan Nation.
Kansas? yeah. The “free market” experiment. Blew up in their faces. And to pay for it? cut education, insurance for kids and no more road repair.
Nah, outside a few conclaves of sanity, pretty much anyone who declares themselves to be Republican is crazy, homophobic, xenophobic and just downright mean.
You write:
Yes, it does.
But will it vote?
Will it make its presence known?
And if so…for whom will it vote?
Big question, no answers so far.
Just yelling.
AG
“The Democratic party mainstream is not liberals and progressives. It’s people of color.”
Wait . . . are liberals and progressives by definition “people of no color”?
Not to deny that people of color play a very important role on the Dem side, and that very few of them vote for Republicans any more.
BUT, although I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “party mainstream”, the fact is that in 2012, 60% of Democrats were white, 22% were black, and 13% were Hispanic.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/160373/democrats-racially-diverse-republicans-mostly-white.aspx
Yeah, the mainstream of progressives Democrats are people of color, with a minority being basically college-educated whites and folks in academia or the greater academic world/towns. Obviously, there’s also white union members who are core progressives.
The Democratic Party as a whole, however is not majority minority.
If you mean progressive in political orientation, and not because it’s in their own personal self-interest to identify as progressive, not likely that there’s any racial or gender difference. The young –age 18 to 29 — are possibly more oriented towards a liberal posture, but some of that is youthful rebellion. The youngest voters in ’80 were quite comfortable rejecting the ’60s and socialism-lite.
Before anyone pats themselves on the back for being prescient, they should look back at who they were fretting or crowing about nearly a year ago before the Trumpalooza began and Jeb? was at the top of the leader board.
Seemed to me that a lot of DEMs/liberals were most freaked by the potential of Walker candidacy. And as it became known that Jeb? was building a huuge war chest some freaked out about that as well. Cruz was problematical because he’d aligned himself with the teabaggers and his daddy was on the Iowa fundie church circuit. Even with the past demonstrations of Keyes and Cain, Carson was dismissed because the left view of Republicans is that they are all principally driven by racism. (They liked Colin Powell and Condi Rice as well.)
Got it on that one, Marie. My personal nightmare was Walker.
Missed that one coming fer sure.
Can I get a brownie point or two for dismissing Walker as a potential threat once he jumped on the national stage?
Yeah, but you already wasted it on the knife in the back you gave Carter.
A fact is “a knife in the back” in your book? In real time, liberal/progressive Democrats didn’t appreciate the amount of evangelical god-talk that Carter reprised on the national stage. Carter dared to walk onto the slippery slope that the founders of this country not only specifically warned against but put it in the freaking Constitution.
That’s not to say that Carter isn’t personally a decent man and doesn’t live by his religious precepts. Only that it should be personal and when made political it’s extremely dangerous. And in Carter’s case, it came back to bite him in the butt for years later with the Moral Majority that gave us Reagan and neoliberalism for the past thirty-six years.
Billmon
Wow, this is not at all how I remember Jimmy Carter as president. In what way did he bring evangelical Christianity into government? Ritual invocations of God don’t count–all presidents do that (although I wish they wouldn’t).
So, while you may not have noticed or remembered, Carter’s campaign absolutely did politicize evangelicals. And he didn’t drop that once in the WH. While Ted Kennedy’s ’80 primary challenge may have primarily been about the fact that Carter was a conservadem, his “churchiness” wasn’t unrelated to that. (Plus, his claim to being a reformer untainted by political scandals didn’t hold up once he brought in his cast of sleazy characters from GA.)
Oh, I recall the Playboy interview. But I don’t recall Carter doing anything particular to “mobilize” evangelical Christians. He was open about his religious faith but I never felt he was projecting it onto me.
I think people on the left just lump evangelicals, fundamentalists, and various other Protestant sects together, call them “evangelicals”, and assume they’re all right wing Republican nuts. But surveys (Pew, for example) show a fair minority of “evangelicals” vote Democratic. A similar sort of dismissive attitude is common on the left in regards to Mormons. Until a few years ago, I shared those attitudes. Then I met evangelicals and Mormons who absolutely violated the stereotypes I’d been walking around with.
I think people on the left just lump evangelicals,…
Okay to lump “people on the left” into one pile?
I too have met/known some quite lovely people that are Mormons and evangelicals, but even among those lovely people, few are politically liberal/progressive. However, wouldn’t lump them in with the GOP crazies; they’re merely “moderate” partisan Republicans not much different from other “moderate” partisan Republicans of other faiths. btw – Dr. Ben isn’t representative of the Seventh Day Adventists that I’ve known and have had a high regard for due to their advocacy for healthy eating and living. But haven’t a clue as to their political orientation because way back when it was considered impolite to bring up either religion or politics in polite or mixed settings. And by and large ministers/priests didn’t preach politics from the pulpit.
As a leftie not inclined to explain all objections to liberalism or Democrats as race based, although much of it is, how am I supposed to interpret Carter’s sweep of the Deep South in 1976 when in the prior three elections they went for Goldwater, Wallace, and Nixon? Tribalism, racism, or emerging politicization of evangelicals? ’64 was racism alone. ’68 was racism and tribalism. ’72 was back to racism. Can’t discount some degree of tribalism in ’76, and perhaps some voters mistook a man from GA as with them on race, but that would be their error and not Carter’s fault. But only the addition of evangelical voters adequately explains for me Carter’s reach into the “Bible Belt” and why it was also foreign and off-putting to west coast, IL, and WI voters.
Tribalism for sure. I was already working in DC and you wouldn’t believe the joy that his election brought to the Southern-born, even those who normally voted Republican. He was a Southerner from the Deep South. That trumped everything else to those native born in Virginia, North Carolina, Mississippi and I doubt not elsewhere, undoubtedly Georgia. I didn’t know anyone from Louisiana or Alabama or Florida.
Carter didn’t carry Virginia.
But the Virginians I knew were overjoyed that he won. Granted, they were mostly government employees, but some were very conservative.
Virginia is an odd state. Probably always has been.
In the contemporary American imagination of the horrors of slavery, VA doesn’t figure large even though there were more slaves in VA than any other state, but as a percentage of the population was more like Texas.
I have to keep in mind that in ’76 politicizing evangelicals was recent and yet to become organized on a more national and hierarchical basis.
You are seriously saying that Carter’s run for the Presidency actually caused the politicization of the evangelical Right?
That thought is so devoid of practical political thinking the mind boggles. ANYONE who thinks the Southern Evangelicals were not politically motivated prior to Jimmy Carter is a fool. A fool who knows essentially nothing about the history and arc of southern politics.
There you go again — flinging a personal insult (does that make you feel like a tough guy?) and misquoting me. I never used the term “Southern Evangelicals” for the specific reason that they don’t reside exclusively in the Deep South.
I don’t know where you live/have lived or how old you are, but “god-speak” at the Presidential level for most of the twentieth century until ’76 was generic and limited. From the pulpits, churches were careful not to specifically embrace a political party for fear of losing their tax exempt status. And yes, in ’76 and during his presidency, it was shocking to many that Carter was so vocal and specific about being a born-again Christian.
I suppose you think that the Moral Majority appeared in 1979 in some sort of vacuum because its time had come. Poppycock.
Using the fallout from the Playboy interview as evidence that Carter was interested in riding institutional evangelical support to victory is a negation of your point. If Carter had been sincerely interested in organizing Falwell, Ehrlich and others to start their machine for his candidacy, he wouldn’t have done that Playboy interview at all, or said what he said about lusting for other women.
You’re ignoring the fact that Falwell and others were animated by racism and gutting social programs. Carter’s campaign, and his Presidency, didn’t give them what they wanted. In fact, they were so opposed to what the Carter Administration and Congressses did, they organized the Moral Majority during his Presidency.
Yeah, the “FACT” is a knife in the back.
Christianity is a fact of life for Jimmy Carter. He lives his religion daily, it is what makes him Jimmy Carter. Its what he believes made him a good man.
You saying that he is to blame for the rabid, science denying, hatred spewing, bigoted world of Falwell, Graham, Perkins, Huckabee, et al is a KNIFE IN THE BACK.
and realistically, just what I would expect of you.
But I didn’t say what you said I did. Your expressions of loathing for my perspectives and opinions are often based on projections. Perhaps in your real life there was someone you came to dislike and in some way my written words remind you of that person; so, it’s your duty to attack me even if it means distorting, lying or completely misinterpreting what I’ve said. That’s only one of many possibilities, but it’s the most generous one (and if anywhere close to accurate, that real person and I wouldn’t be much alike at all).
Those who open well and long known cans of worms because there are some tasty bits at the top that benefit them bear a measure of responsibility for all the creepy, crawly things that also emerge when the top is off. Sort of the definition of slippery slope or in more modern terms, no good deed goes unpunished.
Can I get one for saying he was out of the question because he looked like an egg-sucking dog?
AG
Missed that from you. Possibly because was embedded in all your paeans to the mighty Rand Paul.
Here.
And here.
And… I never thought that Rand Paul was “mighty,” just that he…and his father… were right about a great many things. More than anyone else in the national mix at the time. I thought from the get-go that Rand Paul lacked political talent at the national level…the necessary charisma. He did keep trying; he just didn’t have it. So it goes.
AG
August 6 — after the first debate isn’t prescient. And even at that your perceptions and impressions didn’t line up with that of GOP voters (which is the whole point of looking at the GOP field from the other side):
September 18th — on the eve of Walker suspending his 60 campaign is months late to the party.
For someone not invested in the candidacy of Rand Paul, you sure spent a lot time posting comments and diaries extolling him.
Nobody else at that time was was saying anything much that was worthwhile, in my view.
Now? Only Sanders, among those in national contention.
AG
So, because you didn’t get it right, nothing anyone else said was worth a damn? That’s like an echo from all the people that fell for GWB’s great WMD hoax.
Actually, several people here were stating quite rational and astute observations. Long before and in response to the first GOP debate.
Marie…I meant no other national pol was saying much of worth as far as I was concerned.
AG
Okay. Thanks for the correction. Will have to disagree as to the worth of the national pols once the GOP field was set in July.
That we will.
AG
OK, you got me on that one. Brownie point awarded.
Ah, do appreciate you being gracious and upstanding.
btw — my take on Walker had only to do with his persona and campaign trail chops and how poorly it would play with a national audience. Didn’t have a clue that he was totally incompetent at organizing a campaign or that those that had surrounded him through three WI gubernatorial elections were so provincial. Thus, would have expected him to remain in the race for somewhat longer than 60+ days.
At least as long as Christie or Kasich!
Yes, your point for predicting Walker’s demise is on the board. You did fret about Christie’s campaign, though. I knew the dude was a tomato can who wouldn’t go over.
I’ve never pretended to know how the GOP electorate would come down on their final nominee, and still don’t. I did doubt Trump’s staying power and organization, and still think he would run worse than any GOP candidate in the general election. The GOP base does seem to be sincerely interested in nominating a candidate who will bring back the 1880’s, so it appears ever more likely that their nominee will be toxic and very difficult to elect in November.
It has been astonishing to witness how supine the state populations have been to this Republican incarnation operating on their public good. Must be a LOT of masochists out there.
That doesn’t seem fair to me. It’s not so easy for the average person to connect all the dots between public policies, both promised and enacted, and how those policies really impact their lives,communities, and the nation. Politicians lie to them and because there is a lag time between almost all policies and the impact of them, so much noise intervenes that they still can’t connect the dots. Democratic constituencies aren’t any more astute than Republicans. And politicians in both parties hold up fig leaves with emotional resonance for their constituencies and tell them this is the most important thing that they should care about.
Will be interesting to see if it is red states outside the south that go blue before purple states, as some have predicted. Me, I think that is optomistic.
Excellent post.
I think Silver is very good when he’s analyzing polls. Through the end of last year, though, he basically had said: it’s too early, don’t pay attention to the polls. I remember him saying in the fall that Trump had no more than a 2% to 5% chance. Which led me to conclude, as a political analyst, he’s about as reliable the guy spouting off at the next table at Starbucks. He should stick to the polls, where he has more credibility.
My evolution on thinking about Republicans is similar to the above. The impeachment was a radical departure from any previous norms, at least in our postwar politics. That should have set off everyone’s alarm. I remember a debate I had with some friends at the beginning of the last decade. Someone was saying that D’s and R’s are two parties with different ideas about what’s best for the country. I disagreed. I don’t think R’s (Bush and other leaders, at least) give a shit about what’s best for the country. They don’t care about you or me or our kids or grandkids. They care only about themselves, their own quest for power, and dominating anyone not in their club. Everything they’ve done in the past couple of decades bears that out.
20% chance just happened us all. But the reason GOP establishment has so little power is because theyre irrelevant after citizens united. They had already outsourced to talk radio but CU ki ked it into overdrive.
I want revenge on my enemies. But my enemies are the super rich who run stuff for shit, the political elites who enable them and the individuals who are willibg to use violence to support them. Sanders represents the person better suited to crush them compared to HRC imo.
I was in elementary school in the 90s in a private religious school. I dont regret that and I had a number if friends, wasnt bullied etc. but when politics did come up it was clear I was the only lefty in the class of 40 (some kids were apolitical). The things the republican parents told their kids… well there were no scales to fall from my eyes as I grew up, let me tell you.
Silver is just another pundit, albeit one in mathematician’s drag. When he’s right…no, when any of them are right…they’re the pundit of the day/week/month/year. Then they miss something and go back to the pundit pack to wait for their next chance to to be the first dog to howl up another tree.
It’s a living…
AG
It’s very simple. Silver is an excellent statistician, but his understanding of politics isn’t anything above average — if that.
Another case is Paul Krugman; brilliant economist, with an extraordinary ability to apply that understanding to all kinds of problems in contemporary life — and a really good writer. But his political judgment is pedestrian and unremarkable.
dKos – Falwell Endorses Trump.
Looks like a wrap to me. There simply aren’t enough GOP voters in Iowa or SC that are outside the “god, gay, guns” and racist factions to change the trajectory without a viable and attractive candidate of their own.
Ah, so that shoe has dropped. Color me utterly unsurprised. I’m sure Falwell is laughing all the way to his off-shore accounts with the lovely payola sent his way to do that.
Falwell: the poster boy for amoral grafter ever ready to figure out another way to milk the rubes for as much as he can make off of them. Snowbilly Snooki is his evil foster daughter. Once she got on the grift, I’m sure Falwell was on the phone eagerly offering up his endorsement to “Family Values” Trump… for a fee, of course!
Predictable. Wait for more of the same. The money boyz are backing their own.
Can Franklin Graham be very far behind the gravy train??
So, are we looking at the 2004/2008/2012 status quo again in November? The presidential race determined by the same 10 or so states?
I agree with Booman’s analysis about Trump, but all the commentary about all Republicans being insane for decades rings completely false here in Oregon. Presently the GOP is unable to win the governorship or any other state-wide office because the primary voters are so right-wing, but that has only been the case since roughly 2000. Previously Oregon’s “mossback” Republicans like Tom McCall (governor), Mark Hatfield (governor and then, for many years, US senator), and Bob Packwood (US senator) were pretty moderate, good-government guys. Hatfield was an early opponent of the US war in Vetnam. Packwood was pro-choice. Many of the Republicans in the Oregon state legislature are still open to working with the Democratic majorities to craft legislation. I believe the situation is similar in Washington state.
Used to be like that here in Illinois, but now the Republicans are in full scorched earth “shut down the government or privatize it” mode.
But I understand Governor Rauner doesn’t want to negotiate, so he’s accomplishing nothing and hurting the economy, worsening the budget problems and damaging the Republican brand in Illinois. I understand that even the business community is asking him to get off his stalemate with the Legislature.
The Republicans in Washington have been getting pretty crazy of late. But I remember Packwood, Hatfield and McCall. I used to think Oregon had some pretty interesting characters in office. Even Packwood’s exit was interesting.