Back in 2000, there was a debate between Al Gore and Bill Bradley held at the Apollo Theater in Harlem. As you might expect, the topics largely focused on things of particular concern to the black community. It was a very contentious debate, but Gore ultimately landed a knockout punch in the following exchange.
GORE: That’s not true either, not true. That’s not true either. Let me respond to this. You know, we’ve had basically the same length career in the Congress, and over the course of that time, I’m proud that I have a better COPE (ph) voting record measured by the support of working men and women and organized labor than Senator Bradley. I compiled that better record in a state in the South where it was not always that easy compared to New Jersey.
I have — I am the one who has been endorsed by the leading pro- choice group. I have been endorsed by organized labor. I have been endorsed by Senator Ted Kennedy and by virtually the entire Congressional Black Caucus.
Now, do you think that they all have such poor judgment, Senator Bradley?
(APPLAUSE)
BRADLEY: What I think is they don’t know your record as a conservative Democrat.
(BOOING)
(APPLAUSE)
BRADLEY: They — they don’t know that you voted five times over three years for a tax exemption for schools that discriminate on the basis of race. It’s in the record. The Black Caucus stated so.
SHAW: Time.
BRADLEY: It’s there in the record.
GORE: You know what? In my experience, Black Caucus is pretty savvy. They know a lot more than you think they know.
(APPLAUSE)
You know, they’re not — black — Congressional Black Caucus is not out there being led around, you know. They know what the score is. And they also know that their brothers and sisters in New Jersey said you were never for them walking the walk, just talking the talk.
It was one of the oldest tricks in the book. Al Gore could point to the polls that showed that he was winning the black vote. He had the endorsement of the Congressional Black Caucus. Was Bill Bradley saying that blacks were stupid or uninformed or just “didn’t know” Al Gore’s record?
Are you calling black people dumb?
Bill Bradley wasn’t calling anyone dumb, but he was suggesting that if black people knew more about Al Gore’s record they’d be less inclined to support him.
Donald Trump uses this kind of thing all the time, although in a slightly different way. He says that people like what he’s saying, that he didn’t make any gaffes, that he won debates, because the polls say he’s winning. If you’re ahead, you can accuse your critics of questioning the intelligence and judgment of the electorate, and any subgroup of the electorate.
It’s elementary politics, and it works until your support dries up and you can no longer argue that the people are with you.
Bill Bradley got roundly booed for suggesting that black people didn’t know Al Gore’s record, and that was the sound bite played from the debate with Howard Dean ‘Aaaarrgh-style’ repetitiveness.
This is history that Sanders should remember, because it’s easy to fall into the same trap. People ask him why blacks are supporting Clinton and the natural response is to say that things will change when people are more knowledgeable about their respective records.
Even if you think that is true, it’s a trap.
The best you can do is to say that you hope to change people’s minds.
“The best you can do is to say that you hope to change people’s minds. “
Or maybe “You should ask them, not me.”
BooMan, did you see the NYT article on this? Seems up your alley.
Do you mean this op-ed?
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/11/opinion/campaign-stops/stop-bernie-splaining-to-black-voters.ht
ml
iirc it was Gore’s unrelenting attacks on Bradley that factored into creating the animosity between Gore and the media. So, in that instance there were longer-term unintended consequences for the trap-setter.
The media is never going to report that political elites have power over their less elite colleagues. And that includes their endorsements.
Not going to shed any tears for Bradley because he didn’t mount much of a campaign against Gore who while in the minds of the public was the heir apparent, didn’t have half the resources at his command that as latest heir apparent has had.
Bernie faces three traps:
And yet he needs to argue Clinton is too conservative, Obama did good things but did not go far enough, and in fact African Americans ARE wrong in supporting a candidate who supports welfare reform.
Not easy. Particularly when everybody’s blood gets up.
Not sure I understand / agree with #2. It may be too early to “attack Obama directly,” but it’s hard to see how a lot of what Sanders has said all along isn’t critical of Obama anyway. These criticisms are central to the substance of his campaign; at least in my mind they are.
At any rate, were he to win the nomination, there’s plenty of criticism of Obama that would go a long way toward actually winning consideration from the majority of Americans that don’t think Obama did a very good job during his first six years (or at all) because he basically didn’t know what he was doing. Most voters, a lot of Democrats included, would agree with him.
You can’t attack a sitting president with 90% popularity in the party at the height of a primary — particularly when said president is very well liked within a particular subset of the party from whom you need the support, and need it fast.
I guess I didn’t understand it rather than disagreed. Thanks for explaining the politics.
a lot of Democrats included? Sanders can attack the President at his peril
Admitted or not, lot of Democrats, a lot of us, fared very, very badly because of Obama’s failures.
you’re living in some sort of PUB fantasy
I don’t think this is right. Obama is extremely popular among Democrats – more popular than Clinton.
I think most Democrats think he did about as well as he good with the Congress he had after 2010.
Yep, it’s complicated to call for a revolution when your party has been in charge for the last seven years and your leaders are well loved.
Well loved within the Party. Bitterly hated outside. If Hillary runs as the third Obama term, she will go down in flames.
He can’t attack Clinton directly, she is
too popularfemale. Women can attack men. Men can’t attack women.And it looks like that’s the trap Sec. Clinton is setting for Sen. Sanders with her tweet earlier today:
“Let’s dispel with this fiction that @POTUS doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows exactly what he’s doing.”
HILBOT!!
This is interesting from Jon Ralston Team Clinton tries to lower Nevada expectations with incredible (i.e. false) claims.
80%? Oh well, Clinton has never been known to be good with numbers.
Western Hispanics are more liberal than Texas Hispanics, imo. Lot of labor history there.
According to the census, in 2014, Nevada was 76.2% white.
In 2016, it is 60.2% Non-Hispanic white eligible voters.
https:/www.americanprogress.org/issues/immigration/report/2015/01/06/101605/the-changing-face-of-am
ericas-electorate
That does round, single digit precision, to 80%.
Bradley at the Apollo reminded me of when Rand Paul went to Howard and “informed” the students that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican– as if they didn’t know black history 100x better than Rand ever would. I’m certain that every last person in Bradley’s audience was familiar with the concept of people voting for good bills that have bad amendments, and it was an insult to cherry-pick a bad amendment and claim that it represents Gore’s worldview. Not only that, they had a lot more trust in both the CBC and Gore based on decades of experience with them.
I don’t think it had anything to do with “vote for me: I’m winning!” That shit only works on the authority-mad GOP.
But Sanders vs. Clinton is a good comp. The Clintons are TRUSTED by the black community, and have been for decades. Whatever Sanders does during this campaign, they’re not going to develop that trust overnight. His best strategy would be to go and meet with as many black leaders, congregations, etc., and let them get their own sense of who he is.
The black community rejected Bradley because he was a corporate “reformer” stiff, and they (AND WE) all know that type. Bernie has to convince them that he understands what the black community is up against, and that he is a fully-functioning, sincere mensch.
He doesn’t have enough time to do it.
The Clintons are TRUSTED by the black community, and have been for decades.
Except for that brief period in 2008 when the “black community” chose not to look away at the Clintons playing the race card again.
I think he is probably one of the last of a broken mold, myself.
The new Norman Thomas? I could see that.
Thinking more of the social justice that is at the heart of their oldest traditions.
It appears that it was the PAC of the CBC that endorsed Hillary, not the Congressional Black Congress, according to Rep. K. Ellison.
Are already seeing the press conflating any of Bernie’s criticism of anything by re-wording them as critical of Obama.
I’d be more worried about Sanders falling into this trap, if Hillary hadn’t already fallen into a similar trap:
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/02/10/not-your-firewall-minority-voters-refuse-be-token-clinto
n-strategy-map
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/king-african-american-firewall-clinton-insulting-article-1.
2521962
Too little too late Booman. The Bernie stans are already Whitesplaining away to Black folks about Bernie being our Lord and savior.
Bollocks. Clintonistas have been ‘blacksplainin’ since the day Hillary officially got into the race why they own the POC vote and therefore, Sanders can’t win the nomination. They did they same in ’07 which is why Obama didn’t get any early traction in the AA community even with Oprah’s endorsement of him.
There is a picture of Sanders marching three heads behind MLK. John Lewis is three heads to the right of MLK. So John Lewis never saw Bernie at a civil rights rally? Maybe he didn’t turn around.
Also, John Lewis endorsed Hillary over Obama in 2008, until he turned around and looked.
Also, John Lewis endorsed Hillary in October last year.
How many endorsements does he get?
Bernie marched with MLK so therefore you Negroes need to fall back, shut up, be seen and not heard and never dare question the White Progressive Messiah about racial justice ever.
Stick to paranoid Russian conspiracy theories ace.
Sigh. No one gives a fuck about his marching with MLK. Not anyone who he needs support from. Just stop. It’s not helping.
Did he go speak to Lewis directly? I don’t know. I feel like I would know if he had, because it would have been broadcasted like no tomorrow; I doubt that’s something that would be kept secret. Maybe it was futile as he knew where Lewis’ support was going to go. So what?
Sanders is doing well enough on his own by taking criticism from protesters to heart, including changing his platform. Why can’t you do the same?
I’m afraid that’s incorrect.
Denise Oliver Velez has been very on top of debunking that point. See: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1483531/59555465
Jewish student in horn rims…
Also, attacking John Lewis in a Democratic Primary — in ANY capacity, whether deserved or not — is not done. Follow Sanders’ lead, please:
Sanders campaign statement on John Lewis’ comments today: “Bernie is a great admirer of Congressman Lewis.”
Done. Move on.
“Done. Move on.” Right. And you should take your own advice.
No one is attacking Mr. Lewis. Sheez.
Also some free advice Bernie fans. You might not agree with who John Lewis has chosen to support in the primary (I don’t) but taking shots at the man and his integrity is not recommended.
Merely note that in ’08 Lewis stuck with Clinton until AFTER Obama won the GA primary.
As a white, female feminist, I’ve quite enjoyed being told by a Clinton flak that I’m going to hell and have felt entitled to push back on that.
I’m much prefer a Democratic party that was race and gender blind. But as long as the Clintons and any other politician inject race into primary contests, I see nothing wrong with others pushing back. As I did in the immediate aftermath of the ’08 NH primary. The team Clinton racist dog whistles repulsed me, but I was only speaking as a white woman to other white folks. Trust that’s okay with you.
Look… You’re not going to be able to tell me anything about the Clintons cynical parlor tricks on race that I don’t already know so you can take your “Well Actually” routine and sell it somewhere else. I think both of these candidates Hillary Clinton AND Bernie Sanders are painfully mediocre and they’re both going to get this work from me. Also based on how you’ve responded to posters like Rikyrah on matters of race in the past your two cents on Black folks is null and void to me. Be well.
Was I speaking to you? Most white folks don’t see through the Clinton “parlor tricks” and those are the only people that I can hope to reach.
I’ve usually been supportive of Rikyah’s comments here, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything and not speak up when I don’t.
If all of us only speak to “our own kind” we’re going to be stuck in this racist, sexist culture forever. And the hurts, resentments, and inequalities will continue to fester.
Your choice.
You replied to my comment so I assumed you were.. Rest of my point still stands. You have no credibility trying to step to anybody about race. Worry about your fellow Bernie stans slamming a civil rights icon simply because he endorsed the candidate of his choice.
Seems to me that Marie has a lot more credibility than you. She answers with facts. You answer with ad hominems. Lewis said he never saw Sanders at a civil rights march, but he saw Bill and Hillary. Unfortunately, there is a picture with Bernie marching three heads behind MLK, and Lewis three heads to the right of Dr. King. So maybe there’s something else that Lewis missed along the way so that he endorsed H. Clinton over Obama in 2008.
Repeating… Stick to paranoid Russian conspiracy theories ace.
Hey, Kenny. You’re way out of line. Stop.
You need to provide evidence to support your claims. They’re bullshit from top to bottom. No one has criticized Mr. Lewis, nor would they. He’s entitled to endorse Hillary as often as he wants until he changes his mind. But you don’t get to tell lies about what others are saying. Are you talking about stuff you’ve read on blogs, twitter, where exactly? And do you have proof that these posts weren’t posted by Hillary supporters?
Just stop.
So I just imagined all the Sanders supporters calling John Lewis an establishment Uncle Tom today. Just like all the imaginary Sanders supporters who harass POCs on blogs and social media for not accepting Bernie as our Lord and savior. Okay Massa I stand corrected. Take your tone policing bullshit somewhere else. I don’t need to do anything except stay Black and die.
Some more “theories” for you … John Kerry contradicts the outcome of the NATO meeting in Brussels between Ashton Carter and the Islamic Military Alliance for Combating Terrorism headed by Saudi Arabia for boots on the ground to combat ISIL. Kerry quite clearly stated Syria ahould remain whole and will not be divided for a Salafist pipe dream of a caliphate from Iraq’s Anbar province to the souhern border of Turkey. The Kurds will play their role and will not be wiped off the map by Turkey’s Erdogan. Indeed, Kerry is in close agreement with his Russian counterpart.
Like I said .. spot on! Thanks to Voice in the Wilderness for support throughout the months, years.
One of Hillary’s mindset flaws besides poor judgement on foreign policy, is that she absolutely lacks vision. Was already clear in the onset by supporting Barry Goldwater in ’64. She can’t even run a succesfull campaign on her own merits, not in ’08 and she will find it diffivult in ’16. I wasn’t aware of mr. Sanders’ Jewish background until just a few days ago when I learned he stayed in a kibbutz in ’63. The ideals of Israel’s kibbutz and socialism is no secret, furthermore the American Jewish community joined the Civil Rights movement of the ’50s and ’60s. Jews, Catholics and the AfroAmericans were targeted by racism and bias in the deep South (KKK). After the liberalization by pope John XXIII, the American catholic hierarchy turned towards conservatism and the far-right politically. Only today, Rome with pope Francis returns to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. As the Labor party declined in Israel, the Zionist hardliners from the Soviet Union and it’s satellite states gained the majority. Israel has become a Jewish state led by a government void of human values and the founding principles of any democracy. The bs of Netanyahu and his cohorts with support of Jewish oligarchs doesn’t fool me. Russia’s FM Lavrov alluded to the lack of will by the international community to provide the rights of Palestinians for their independent state.
On US politics and the presidential campaign:
Obama in ’08: “Yes we can!”
Hillary in ’16: “No, we can’t.”
Bernie in ’16: “We’re not there yet (under Obama’s 8 years), but we can!”
I surely hope the Bernie Sanders campaign will have an impact on the American political establishment. Hillary’s “status-quo” of the establishment won’t change unless there is a political revolution. The inequality of wealth across the globe is revolting (aided by globalization, suppressing labor rights and poisoning the environmrnt). US capitalism and foreign policy basically support dictators and oligarchs here at home and across this planet.
The MSM is a major factor in the “status-quo” and the belligerancy of advocating war above a political settlement. The 21th century is quite similar to how the world was misled 100 years ago. Perhaps social media and Internet blogs can make a difference. It already did as such with Obama in ’08, let’s see how this develops during the ’16 campaign.
Propaganda in US Congress and coming from government spokespersons is just horrific. Washington DC has no credibility left after two wars and the Middle East upheaval through wars by proxies.
Perhaps the clue lies on one premise for Democrats for ’16: which of the two candidates has less blood on his/her hands. Foreign leaders in Africa come before the ICC or similar International Court or Tribunal. Western nations, the US included, can escape with the most wretched of war crimes, HR abuse and torture with impunity. Indeed US leads by exceptionalism.
Pardon me. I’ve been corrected. The Sanders campaign says it wasn’t him. But then I never saw either of them at the civil rights marches I’ve attended.
Here’s some advice to Clinton hacks: If you say you never saw Sanders at a civil rights march make sure you and Sanders aren’t in the same picture at the same civil rights march.
Just saying.
MULTIPLE TRAPS FOR BERNIE TONIGHT-THE ESTABLISHMENT WILL TRY TO USE THIS DEBATE TO KILL THE BERNIE-MENTUM:
Here are my predictions for the “Get Bernie” debate we are about to see.
GO BERNIE – we need real change! How about two fives for a ten? Bernie has the change you need!!!
Bet On It. Literally. (Some sites paying 3 to 1 on Bernie bets!!!)
What was the Poo-Poo-Choo-Choo…?
There was some official graft and corruption and a bankrupt poo-poo train operator that played some role in the demise of these shipments.
Damn. That sure was not reported widely in Texas! LOL Small wonder, too.
Lots of things never get reported to a wide audience. An attorney I knew that was working on sorting out all the contract messes involved in this one told me about it. When I questioned him as to why the TX residents would want this sludge, he corrected and said they didn’t want the trainloads to stop.
This won’t get much attention either (b/c it’s not for white folks to mention) — Hillary Clinton Endorsed By Congressional Black Caucus’s Corporate-Backed Political Arm.
Probably have to go a long way before finding a politician that isn’t financially backed by a predatory lender.
That issue(predatory lending) exposes some strange occupants. Like Native Americans.
Step out of the traps proactively, Bernie. Take some of those $$$ that we have given you and start organizing in these communities. Pass the torches to the locals. Call up Al Giordano for pointers. This is not an insurmountable problem. Just seeing young workers/canvassers, getting paid well, will have a very galvanizing effect on the population. More than politics is going on now and “character counts”. Organize for the future and the long game builds confidence. One of the biggest failures for Dems was to stiff the 50 state strategy. This empowering local Dems (which Bernie has already done in Vermont) would be a wonderfully rewarding avenue to take to the inner cities and barrios of the country. Again, call up Al Giordano, Bernie, best conversation you might have now.
Is it true that Bernie is the only one whose been paying his interns, etc. all along? Well, that speaks volumes, if true.
who’s
Bernie has been paying staffers from day one. iirc, minimum wage of $15/hour. Interns would have come along later and it’s my understanding that they’re paid the local legal minimum wage.
Also one small Iowa town brought up the issue of not being paid for the local costs to host a POTUS candidate campaign swing through the town. Sanders campaign paid the $7,000 (approx) bill when it was submitted and a town spokesperson said that it was the first campaign that had ever paid such a bill.
His campaign has tried to model what good citizenship and financial responsibility looks like.
Uh, prior to the Iowa caucuses, Sen. Sanders was saying stuff along the lines of “Oh, I don’t really have to win in Iowa.” Sounded to me like trying to lower expectations.
Oh wait, that’s something that only the evil Clintons do.
You mean like what Clinton did the next week in New Hampshire? Here’s a hint: all politicians hope to modulate expectations for their benefit. Not all politicians are in 2.8 billion to the 1%.
http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/01/30/clinton-system-donor-machine-2016-election/
The whole “black voters in South Carolina and March primaries will decide the Democratic presidential nominee in 2016” has been a trap in waiting since the Clinton machine and obeisant media set it months ago. The way around it has been likewise clear all along: don’t step into it. Sanders will defer to Clinton repeatedly on these topics if/when they come up tonight and over the coming days. There’s no upside for him one way or the other in this now.
Sanders, of course, has more important issues to discuss, and if voters in South Carolina want to get lost in mythologies told by their “heroes,” that’s not something Mr. Sanders is able to resolve. Nor should he try.
We’ve all known for months about these traps (and the not-so-subtle racism from which they’re devised). It’s not hard to avoid them.
“…the natural response is to say that things will change when people are more knowledgeable about their respective records.”
That may be natural for someone like Ben Bradley to say but for not a master politician like Bernie Sanders. The difference is that Bernie truly believes in small `d’ democracy treating people like they are intelligent human beings. The person who is actually worried “that things will change when people are more knowledgeable about their respective records” is Team Hillary and her DNC hence the limiting of the debates fiasco trying to limit the reach of Bernie’s message with the result of handing the Republicans an advantage with voter turnout.
Bernie is quite aware that he is not only up against the Republicans and Big Money but he is also up against the Democratic Establishment who probably has the most vested interests in keeping him from gaining the nomination. Some organizations get quite offended when their leaders are included in that Establishment especially if the goals of the organizations they represent are very progressive. Sometimes this places their leadership in an awkward position as they make endorsements that are not shared by the rank and file. This is all about keeping and using your hard earned seat at the table.
Sometimes people all on their own do think for themselves given access to an alternate path. I do wonder if the Black Caucus will get the same surprise as Team Hillary did after they prepared for her inevitable coronation. It even makes more sense that the Black Caucus would remain in the camp of the Establishment given the lock Team Hillary seems to have on the nomination, which brings me to another point.
It seems that the DNC decided long ago to save us from ourselves, to save us from nominating anyone for President who might threaten their corrupt corporatist interests. This vehicle to protect `electability’ is the DNC poison pill to protect the Democratic Establishment. The DNC gave themselves (all 432 of them), former DNC Chairs and Co-Chairs, Democratic governors and members of congress super delegate privileges of one delegate vote each with each delegate vote equal to about 10,000 actual primary votes regardless of the will of those primary voters. It used to be worse with super delegate votes comprising 20% of all delegate votes. The DNC rules committee thought that might be a bit much so they reached a `reform’ compromise in 2008 of 15% of all delegate votes. Put another way, the super delegates represent 30% of the delegate votes needed for the nomination.
Do you want to see this up close? Bernie beat Hillary by a 22% margin in the New Hampshire primary but as the delegate count now stands, the election was a TIE, with two super delegate votes still undecided. This means Hillary probably WON the New Hampshire primary.
Christine Pelosi (Nancy’s daughter and CA super delegate) says, “…do not presume that we would “deny” the very democracy to which we dedicate our public service.” Good for you but what we have now with this super delegate voter override is proof of just how rigged and corrupt our political system has become but this time from INSIDE the Democratic Party. This must NOT stand.
I speak now directly to the DNC super delegates: You may be able to use your insider power to make my vote meaningless in the primaries but your authority runs out after the nomination. At that point you will need us more than we need you to preserve power for your beloved party so be careful of what you do. I demand fairness from you and if you fail to give it, you will NOT be able to count on my vote in the general. If you continue to use your nuclear poison pill, you may be directly responsible for your own destruction depending on how many people feel the same way as I do. Do you feel lucky, DNC super delegates? Think it over.
The super delegates will be damned one way or another if it is close enough for the super delegates to matter.
If they go to Hillary, they risk losing because Bernie’s “army” stays home. If they go to Sanders, the Democrats running for Congress and the Democrat running for President are singing from different songbooks. That’s the George McGovern disaster. George by himself and Democrats running away from him.
I think they would probably prefer getting beaten with Hillary. I think the key question Bernie supporters should ask of themselves is “Why doesn’t Bernie have any support among super delegates?” Doesn’t he have any friends in the Democratic party?
Maybe he should hold a fundraiser or two for the party. You know, like Clinton does. Actually help some Democrats get elected instead of running against them. Maybe give some money to the party offices around the country so they can staff up to help him win next November. Instead he is letting Hillary raise the money to pay for the party apparatus he expects to use next November.
Hillary is earning her super delegate votes. What is Bernie doing to get them? Nothing? So how can he complain if they don’t vote for him?
I see you’ve dropped all pretense of being from Canada, and going forward with the HRC talking points. congrats
The magic of our still rather young experiment with democracy is something not even mentioned in our constitution, political parties. Political parties bind like minded people together so the public business can go forward. The magic part of this is that it forces the parties to align and remain aligned with the will of the people. If they fail this basic task they lose the election. The reason the super delegate poison pill to protect the Democratic Establishment is so bad is because it defeats that magic mechanism of forcing alignment with the will of the people.
As I’ve said before, the super delegate poison pill is like possessing a nuclear weapon because if you ever use it, you assure your own destruction. Do you really think it would be a good idea give 712 countries nuclear weapons and hope they will all have the good judgment not to use them? Maybe I’m getting too far out there for you so I’ll try again.
Dirty Harry has the guy on the ground holding a cocked pistol to the guy’s head and they’re discussing the odds a bullet is still in the chamber. Dirty Harry then asks his famous question, “Do you feel lucky, punk? Do you?” But wait, it’s probably more like a Mel Brooks movie where the DNC is holding the gun to its own head demanding support.
Hillary is out there already there claiming her super delegate lead is decisive. Maybe she thinks that taking this poison pill is just the cost of doing business where you pay the fine but still win. I know, she has had trouble in the past with that judgment thing.
The only way out of this is for Hillary to win the elected delegate vote outright or the super delegates vote in such a way that is does not change the elected delegate vote. This begs the question of why have super delegate votes at all if the only sane way to use them is to use them in a way that has no effect. The DNC was urged to do away with super delegate votes in 2010 but they wanted to keep that power. Even if the Establishment now finally sees the danger it may be too late to do anything about it because a single super delegate vote to overturn the will of the people will unleash the destructive force of the super delegate poison pill.
The destructive force I talk about is that if the DNC steals this nomination with super delegate votes it will be proof that the Democratic Party is too corrupt to allow itself to be fixed. It then becomes a moral issue if we want to allow corporatist corruption to continue. Who can vote for that? The question now becomes, is it better the Democratic Party is defeated now or do we wait for that defeat until 2020 when the stakes are even higher with the census? I have no idea just how much damage a President Trump could inflict but at least the Clinton Machine will finally be defeated.
The one thing the Clinton Machine DNC is really good at is losing elections giving more power to Republicans. Using their poison pill they get a really good shot at losing the big one with Hillary going against Trump with a demoralized base and Trump preaching to the choir of some real Hillary haters, not the mild ones around here. Trump will beat her like a rug for things she will have no answer.
Another point, if Bernie wins the nomination he will be raising a lot of money for fellow Democrats, just not the ones you like, real progressives to dismantle the Clinton Machine.
If Sanders wins a majority of delegates from the States’ caucuses and primary elections, the superdelegate count will change. You’re living in some fantasy world where you believe that superdelegates would be entirely unresponsive to what happens during the States’ elections.
At the moment, the superdelegates as a body support Hillary and believe she will win the nomination by winning the State elections. It is difficult to call them wrong about that last expectation of theirs at the moment. If Sanders flips millions of Democrats and gets them to become his supporters in the next few weeks, the superdelegates will respond to that as a body. Not all of them, but enough of them so that they will not reverse a clear win by Sanders in the States.
I’d add that I don’t think you’re providing objective political analysis in your prediction of what would happen in a Trump/Clinton general election. You’re a real Hillary hater all right, not a mild one at all. That comes across in your writing.
I can see either Clinton or Sanders and their supporters having plenty of ammo to smash Trump in the general election. And you’re worried about a demoralized Democratic base? The Democratic base likes Hillary, even if you and others don’t. Polls show this to be a clear and stubborn fact.
We’re also sitting here the morning after Trump blamed W. Bush for 9/11, for pushing for war even though Bush knew (not should have known, knew) that Saddam had no WMD, and for running a disaster of an Iraq War. You and I agree with those views, but if you don’t think these statements will fracture the Republican base if Trump wins the nomination, you are sorely mistaken.
I do hate something; hate it enough to never vote for it again. That something I hate is the DLC. I hate it because I believe the Democratic Party was once the party of the people until Al From recruited Bill (Slick Willy) Clinton to run for president, all of them (including Hillary) embraced neo-liberalism, the economic viewpoints of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, sending our party of the people spiraling in a moderate Republican direction. This allowed the DLC to build a machine that populated congress with Blue Dogs who then managed to cancel Obama’s vision of hope and change. The Democratic voters rejected this third way Republican-lite ideology by staying home. Most all of the DLC Blue Dogs were eventually defeated and replaced by real Republicans, real crazy ones too. The DLC lived on to dominate the DNC losing the trust of the people, preventing most true progressives from ever gaining office, losing both houses of congress, most of the governors mansions and state houses. As Bernie says, enough is enough.
I despise any politician who gets elected to represent the interests of the people then sells out to Big Money. This makes them all the same. For me that is betrayal, no better than bait and switch as a vivid example of legal corruption. The people who profited from this have a vested interest in protecting this cash cow at all costs. That protection took the form of giving themselves a full 30% of the delegate votes to win the Democratic nomination. Bernie beat Hillary by a whopping 22% with the largest number of votes ever recorded for any candidate in a New Hampshire primary, Democrat or Republican, to still lose that primary to Hillary. It may be impossible for Bernie to win any state primary election with the Clinton Machine in charge of the DNC rules unless the DNC gets cold feet at the last minute because they fear voters might stay home in the general out of pure disgust.
If you are correct that the DNC super delegates would never overturn the popular primary results, why allow the super delegates to have those dangerous toxic votes that are worth 10,000 popular votes each? It’s like handing a child a loaded gun hoping nothing bad will happen. Hillary is still actually waving it around bragging how her super delegate lead is decisive.
I don’t know if Hillary can sling enough mud to pull off wearing her shiny gold Goldman Sachs speech outfit to win the Democratic popular primary vote outright. If she can things will be better but not by much. At best she might manage to squeak out a narrow victory over Trump but then what? The Clinton controlled DNC has a track record of losing power to the Republicans, just in time for the 2020 census. The Republicans might just win their permanent majority after all; along with the White House in 2020. With the Clinton Machine in power, it’s not a question of if but when.
I’ve been working longer hours recently, and haven’t been able to comment as frequently. It’s been refreshing.
Observing the discussions at the Pond while playing a reduced role (and let’s face it, every frequent commenter here has selected their roles) is helping me gain some clarity.
I don’t need to enter into arguments with the many here who despise Hillary. I have observed their claims become increasing outlandish. It’s not important for me to talk them out of their views. Almost no one here will fail to vote for the Democratic POTUS candidate in November, and those who end up assisting the Republican candidate in November through your actions and inactions, God speed.
I’m watching the Presidential debate tonight, and it is genuinely exciting and inspiring. These are two candidates who are responding to the campaign and upping their game. I’m not loving everything they and their campaigns are saying and doing, but they’re each well within the standards I need from a candidate I will proudly support.
Sanders is making this a real nomination fight, and that is a gift that the people are giving themselves. Why not take a moment to savor this campaign? It’s worth enjoying.
I’m unconvinced that the simple existence of superdelegates is in any way undemocratic. Political parties in the US are not organizations that people decide to join; they are instead for the vast number of voters just loose, informal, temporary coalitions. The fact is, the superdelegates are among the small minority who actually do devote themselves to the parties when the electioneering is all over.
Any of us who lives in a state with an initiative/referendum system–one of the major legacies of the Progressive era of a hundred years ago–can point at legislation that was enacted by direct democracy and which has turned out to have pretty negative consequences: three strikes laws are simply one example. Hell, when I was a kid in California in the 1960s, an initiative was passed that overturned a law passed by the state legislature to ban racial discrimination in housing.
I’d be very interested in reading what Booman has to write about the origins and intentions of the superdelegate systems in the D and R parties, and his perceptions of their merits and flaws.