Back when Rand Paul seemed like he might be a more popular politician, I spent some time thinking about what he’d need to do to win the Republican nomination. Obviously, if he was going to succeed, he was going to need a new coalition of voters. And, whenever a party adds a new kind of voter, it’s apt to lose ones that were previously in its camp. For Rand Paul, if he brought in non-interventionists, that was going to cost him the neoconservatives.
My point here isn’t that Rand Paul could have ever pulled this off and won the nomination. But I foresaw that, given a choice between Rand Paul and Hillary Clinton, neoconservatives would opt for Clinton.
And this isn’t a knock on Hillary Clinton or any kind of endorsement of Rand Paul. It’s really just a simple observation. If the Republican Party becomes an unfriendly host for interventionists, they will leave the Republican Party.
Perhaps I put that a little too strongly. Whether someone leaves a party or not usually depends on more than just one factor. For neoconservatives, however, foreign policy has always been their prime motivator for political action.
Much has been written about the genesis of the neoconservative movement, and I don’t need to rehash that here, but it’s important to remember that they began as Democrats. They broke with Democrats during the late-1960’s and early-1970’s over the war in Vietnam, relations with Israel (particularly the reaction to the 1973 war and its immediate aftermath), and posture towards the Soviet Union. For the Jewish members, there was also some backlash against what they perceived as anti-Semitism in the New Left, including from the Black Power movement.
Prior to these ruptures, however, they had been strong New Deal Democrats and supporters of the Civil Rights Movement.
Over time, neoconservatives have lain down with dogs and gotten up with fleas, and their betrayals of their liberal roots and initial embrace of multiculturalism are too numerous at this point to document. But these were often matters of making alliances of convenience rather than true sympathies. Neoconservativism arose in New York City intellectual circles, and they’ve never been truly comfortable with Redneck politics or values.
And, when they look at Donald Trump, a New Yorker who is the furthest thing from a Manhattan intellectual, they see way too much Redneck.
In crafting an open letter in opposition to Trump’s candidacy, they are demonstrating that they’re ready to bolt the Republican Party. And it’s not just because they dislike Trump’s very inconsistent isolationism. They don’t like his illiberal attitudes about race, religion, a free press and human rights. They don’t like his cuddly attitude toward Vladimir Putin or his insults towards Mexico’s government, and they are appalled by Trump’s inability to understand that anti-Islamism makes it impossible to have any allies at all in the Middle East. They also just have a visceral distaste for his anti-intellectualism.
Their itemized objections to Trump are things that most liberals agree with or mostly agree with.
Now, this presents more than one interesting avenue for discussion. A lot of people will focus on a simplistic dichotomy here. If neoconservatives are more comfortable in the Democratic Party, that’s an indictment of the Democratic Party. Basically, whichever party they choose is the lesser for it. But, as I’ve said, this is a more complicated defection (or potential defection) than that. War-Hawkery isn’t the only factor here, and Donald Trump often says things that are more bellicose and hawkish than anything a Democratic politician would ever say.
It’s easy to look at the neoconservative record of immorality, violence and failure during the Bush Era and turn them into caricatures of pure, thoughtless evil. If you do that, however, you won’t understand why so many of them are drifting away from the Republican Party.
So, one way of looking at this is to ask what it means from an ideological standpoint and how it might affect U.S. foreign policy and the politics of the Democratic Party, or the next (Democratic) administration.
Another way of looking at it is from a purely political point of view. What happens when a major party has the bulk of its foreign policy establishment either defect to the other side or sit an election out? What’s the political impact of that? Does it foretell a landslide election?
I’ll just say this: as I’ve tried to examine this crazy political environment, I’ve looked for signs of realignment. These are things I’d expect to see if there is going to be a landslide election. One of the things I thought I might see is a mass defection of neoconservatives. I initially thought this would only happen if Rand Paul somehow caught fire (which I never thought was likely), but I’m seeing it now with Donald Trump.
And, frankly, the reasons are quite a bit deeper than they would have been with Rand Paul. With him, it would have been almost exclusively about foreign policy. With Trump, it’s about much more than that. It’s about basically every value they hold dear.
Honest question: Is there really any difference between a neoconservative and a Wilsonian Democrat?
Wilsonian sought to end war through collective security. Neo-Conservatives seek American hegemony to create “peace.”
So that would be my fundamental distinction. They both aim for a more peaceful world, but Wilsonians believe in creating political structures to create a community of nations, whereas neo-cons prefer the foam finger, we’re #1 approach.
They should rather be called “neoimperialists”.
Won’t catch on because imperialism is foreign to Americans. I suppose neoimperialism isn’t an inaccurate term for neoconservatism but it does seem wanting to me.
More at neocolonialism with our pro-corporate trade agreements… We don’t need a military presence these days to colonize foreign markets.
Then can we close down the thousands of US military outposts scattered around the globe?
The UK was a colonist. Rome was an imperialist. Seems to me that the US has more similarities to the Roman model than the British model, but there are still major differences between the two.
Debt is our weapon of choice. But MIC would scream if outposts were mothballed.
They haven’t perfected the debt weapon enough to dispense with the debt collectors. The Pentagon would be fine with closing all but the vacation style outposts.
I’d go with that. But there is nothing “conservative” about neoconservatives except that they want to preserve a tradition of intervention. A tradition that dates primarily from WWII.
The tradition dates back to the beginning of this country. But agree that in its current form, a post WWII date is appropriate.
Yes, what you said is what I meant, not that there wasn’t imperialism before, hence neoimperialism. Imperialism masquerading as defense.
Neoconservatives are actually worse that pure evil which is usually self defeating. They’re incapable of learning from their mistakes AND still operate under White Man’s Burden. It’s been hard enough with Obama already being skeptical of interventions, I can’t even imagine how many wars we’d wind up in with the neocons AND HRC pulling in harness. That’s terrifying.
One of the burning questions of our time, one that good men can honestly disagree on, but I think I would have said, “have lain down with dogs”.
>>If the Republican Party becomes an unfriendly host for interventionists, they will leave the Republican Party.
now what can we do to make the Democratic party an unfriendly host too?
You write:
I (
wrest)…errr, ahhhh…I mean I rest your case.R.I.P. both parties.
Rest In Pieces.
AG
Sorry, esquimaux.
That comment was supposed to be to Booman’s original piece. I’ll repost it.
AG
To win elections to the point of governing, you have to be a broad coalition. We have two parties. For better or worse, you have a binary choice. If you can more people to choose your side, you stand a better chance of getting more of your policy agenda accomplished. Most American parties are “organized incompatibilities” at some point. That’s why electoral coalitions come and go. The Nixon/Reagan coalition replaced the New Deal coalition and is being replaced with the Obama coalition.
Adding neo-cons is at cross purposes with the Obama coalition foreign policy viewpoint, but they could lineup nicely with other aspects of the coalition’s agenda.
My only question is how many votes are there in the neo-con camp? There is “intellectual cred” for the GOP, but the Democrats have their own and better ideas.
Everyone in Left Blogsylvania hated the Blue Dogs, and for understandable reasons. But Blue Dogs were necessary for passing ACA and every other legislative achievement of the first two years of the Obama administration.
Can the neo-cons bring House seats with them?
This is my big question. Who and where are the neocon voters, and should we care about them?
The Obama coalition doesn’t need them to win. I’d be curious as to what states they might help flip if they either sit out or vote for the Democratic candidate.
I don’t see how there is any significant number of neoconservative voters. Like economic conservatives, they’re less a political party than a dinner party. To prevail in an election they need to attach themselves to some significant group, like the USA-fuck-yeah exceptionalists who worked for them from 2000 to 2006, and that’s gone now. You can see Rubio trying to get their attention with his lies about Iran and Israel, but the only attention he gets is from the think tanks and press; voters couldn’t care less.
And voters wouldn’t be why Clinton would flirt with them, if she does which I hope to god she doesn’t (I’d rather have her flirting with the diabolical old realist Kissinger). American voters really don’t care that much about foreign policy theories. She’d be looking to make a certain type of impression on the Very Serious Persons of the media, as Obama does when he’s polite to “civil” neocons like the Kagans (but not to the savage neocons like Abrams and Kristol and the like).
But the worst you’ll be able to say about her own foreign policy is that it’s neoliberal. She won’t pull back from the Iran deal no matter how much she trash-talks Iranians, or the Cuba deal. She will not seduce Binyamin Netanyahu. She signed up for the Libya mistake specifically, I believe, because it was the opposite of a neocon project, with France and UK promising to lead and the US just supposed to assist, and with “regime change” specifically not on the allies’ military agenda, even though it kind of ended up that way. She’s not going to go back on that approach to get a vote from Robert Kagan.
That’s a pretty fine line you’re drawing between the Kagan and Kristol neocons. Maybe the Kagans are merely more sophisticated in how the position of the USG in a conflict is perceived by the public.
No reason for me to think that the US wasn’t always in the lead on Libya. Cameron couldn’t get Parliament to go along with UK participation and that led to Obama junking a plan to get approval from Congress. That left Sarkozy as the public face of the lead actor. Didn’t work out so well for his political fortunes in the short-run.
You seriously think that she hasn’t and at worst would only “flirt” with them? Sheesh.
How many are there – is a great question. As defined by Booman I could see them aligning with Hillary, but I admit I don’t really know a lot about them or how they ended up this way.
Boorman says much has been written about their genesis but perhaps he can be availed upon to give us his take. I think this could be a historic re-alignment and would like to understand it better.
Neocons are also highly oligarchic. (Problematical for “the working class” party, no?) Totally enmeshed in the MIC. And with trade now being used as a lever of power projection??? I think I go Green.
Sure they may try to go with the Democrats. They have really shown that they are not partisan, and they will simply attempt to influence whoever is ascendant.
But what if neither Party want them? Even if Hillary hides a few of them in her team, I don’t really see it happening full scale.
If present trends continue, they may have no home. We can hope, can’t we?
You beat me to it. Neocons have power only when the people in charge listen to them. Hillary’s vote for the neocon-driven Iraq War may have cost her the nomination in 2008, for what it’s worth.
You write:
I (
wrest)…errr, ahhhh…I mean I rest your case.R.I.P. both parties.
Rest In Pieces.
AG
Are we talking about neoconservatives that flex their muscles by being media pundits or those within the power structure of the USG?
If it’s the former, their public face during the general election will be similar to what it is now. Dire warnings about how horrible Trump would be and those that heed their warnings are “free” to choose their own alternative to Trump. Doesn’t matter if they choose to sit out the election or vote for Clinton as the effect of both choices are close enough to the same.
Victoria Nuland has demonstrated how the latter operates. Their allegiance is to neoconservatism and there’s enough of it in both parties that they can function effectively enough that it doesn’t matter which one is in power at any given time.
The only GOP voter faction of any size (and it’s not large) that has some grasp of and rejects neoconservatism is some portion of the Ron Paul voters. They’ll go with Trump over Clinton because they’ve already heard both and can cynically step back from a general election with Trump and Clinton sparring over who would have the most muscular foreign policy. However, who wins that debate will have more impact on the outcome of the general election than this portion of the Paul faction.
Interesting post. I have two questions though.
First, is the fact that neocons were originally democrats relevant at all at this point? I mean, it’s been a long time since the 1960s. Most of the original neocons must be dead.
Second (and more importantly), are the neocons an actual voting bloc, or are they just 60 people who happen to have read or studied with Leo Strauss? This is actually part of a larger question – is there a bloc of republican voters who will, in fact, be turned off enough by Trump’s racism and/or lack of any qualifications to either sit home or vote for Hillary? I think the election turns on the answer to that question.
60 people with various levels of power.
The roots of any political orientation are always helpful to remember. The beginnings of neoconservatism wasn’t limited to the Democratic Party; it’s was bipartisan from inception. It’s just that a large portion of those that adopted this political posture were more socially and economically liberal (relatively speaking) back then and sort of leaned towards the Democratic Party or assumed to lean because so many were academics and not politicians.
An identifiable seedbed in the DEM Party was what became known as the Scoop Jackson wing. And one of his protege’s was Richard Perle who remains very much alive. The GOP had Kissinger. ’nuff said.
And now Clinton has Kissinger too.
Didn’t need to be spelled out. It’s more persuasive to let people connect the last dot on their own. (btw Trump often employs that sales technique. Haven’t seen Clinton use it — which is a reason why she uses so many words to make her case.)
As far as I’m concerned, for the foreseeable future, there are only two coalitions in this country, the fascist and the anti-fascist. If the fascists win, nothing else will matter.
In the book The Price of Power it is claimed Henry Kissinger would have been Humphrey’s choice for National Security Adviser, which means no matter what happened Kissenger would win.
I doubt politically that the neo-cons matter more than a bucket of spit. It’s not about policy: what matters to GOP voters is toughness – which Trump displays in every appearance.
There are stories floating about regarding Kagan and neo-cons getting comfortable with Hillary. This wouldn’t really be surprising if you know their history. Her vote for the AUMF wasn’t a mistake in judgement: it was a reflection of a World view.
My guess is Trump re-assures the right with a pick that calms the neo-cons down and this really doesn’t matter much.
Those who know policy tend to think the nuances are far more important that they are in politics.
OT, but too good not to share…
In oral arguments for the Texas abortion case, the three female justices upend the Supreme Court’s balance of power.
It felt as if, for the first time in history, the gender playing field at the high court was finally leveled, and as a consequence the court’s female justices were emboldened to just ignore the rules. Time limits were flouted to such a degree that Chief Justice John Roberts pretty much gave up enforcing them. I counted two instances in which Roberts tried to get advocates to wrap up as Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor simply blew past him with more questions. There was something wonderful and symbolic about Roberts losing almost complete control over the court’s indignant women, who are just not inclined to play nice anymore. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/supreme_court_dispatches/2016/03/in_oral_arguments_f
or_the_texas_abortion_case_the_three_female_justices.single.html
Thank you!
As I’ve said, not replacing Scalia is better than replacing him with another neocon/neolib.
How do you define the difference between neocon and neolib?
And that’s why identity politics matter to me. I refuse to drive a wedge between class and identity politics when they go hand in hand. As RBG articulated at Georgetown:
“People ask me sometimes, ‘When do you think it will be enough? When will there be enough women on the court?'” Ginsburg said during the talk, filmed by PBS Newshour. “And my answer is: when there are nine.”
In crafting an open letter in opposition to Trump’s candidacy, they are demonstrating that they’re ready to bolt the Republican Party. And it’s not just because they dislike Trump’s very inconsistent isolationism. They don’t like his illiberal attitudes about race, religion, a free press and human rights. They don’t like his cuddly attitude toward Vladimir Putin or his insults towards Mexico’s government, and they are appalled by Trump’s inability to understand that anti-Islamism makes it impossible to have any allies at all in the Middle East. They also just have a visceral distaste for his anti-intellectualism.
You’re kidding me, right? The Neocons are a racist clown show. Do you really think they care about the people of Iraq, Syria or even Iran? They are war-mongers.
This is the Republican national security elite whose only real purpose was the make the world or rather themselves safe for pursuing naked capitalism. They’re just whining because they fear Trump is nuts enough to interrupt their quite profitable ongoing scam. They never really cared about any of those items most liberals agree with or mostly agree with. You are correct that foreign policy has always been their prime motivator for political action. It’s their job, they are the corporate thugs.
Same as Big Money, they are equally comfortable with either Jeb(!) or Hillary because they’re both moderate Republicans. Since Jeb (!) is history, Hillary is now the only game in town. These neocons are only the elite with little or no connection to the Authoritarian Republican followers of Trump. They could care less about the neocons quest for world economic domination; in fact, they’re probably against it because it has caused so much destruction to their own economic well being. They could care less if this small toxic minority finds a new home.
Speaking of a new home, President Hillary is the perfect new neocon home, almost as perfect as George W. especially after the new Goldman Sachs renovations. Hillary and much of the Clinton Machine would require little or no conversion to become enthusiastic neoconservatives.
The only real problem with their shift to Hillary is the timing. If they move before Hillary actually wins the nomination and the Democratic base learns of the new tenants you would be correct that “if neoconservatives are more comfortable in the Democratic Party, that’s an indictment of the Democratic Party. Basically, whichever party they choose is the lesser for it.” Bernie will have a field day with this.
Right. Both sides (save Trump) are the same.
How well did that work out in 2000?
They’re free agents, nobody can stop them from getting on a soapbox and declaring their intention to vote Democratic this year.
Also, in regards to what you say about the presumed outrage of the Democratic base, I believe Hillary Clinton’s approval rating among said base is about 80%. That statistical tidbit is easy to lose track of in a place where 95% of the people writing comments loathe her.
It’s actually 57% among those in the Democratic Party members.
I initially tended to agree with various other comments that there’s no real neocon electorate but rather a neocon punditocracy and neocon policy hacks. But that’s not entirely correct. As Booman pointed out, there were a lot of Jews among the neocon pundits and policy advisers, and I think that’s no accident: there has been a slow movement of Jewish Americans from the Democratic Party to the GOP in the last several decades. I think the reasons are complicated and have to do with more than simply US policy towards Israel, but the movement from D to R side is real. (I read a Pew Center report once that stated that conservative Jews are more reliably Republican than evangelicals or Mormons….)
Well anyway, does anyone really want neocon “intellectuals” hawking their toxic ideological crap on behalf of the Democratic Party? These are the people who promoted murderous intervention in Central America, say, before turning their attention to lying on behalf of Dubya.
Yes, the Democratic Party is (still) a big-tent political party, unlike the GOP, and unless it becomes an ideological parliamentary type of party, then diversity of opinion and ideology has to exist. But the neocon ideology is toxic. If neocons want to move into the Democratic Party as voters and adjust themselves to present day Democratic norms, then great. If prominent neocons want to try to persuade Republicans to switch their votes this year, then great.
Er, not so’s you would notice….http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jewvote.html
Extremely rich Jewish/Israeli plutocrats who become sugar daddies of our Republican pols do not presage any significant changes, imo. Most Jews are well aware of why Christian Dominionists are so fond of them.
A family member counted as one of those Jews who decided to vote for Romney after a lifetime of being a Democrat. Anecdotal of course.
Pew Center survey on political affiliations of religious groups in the US
In BooMan’s fp story – Neoconservatives Begin the Long March Back – not once was the magic word ISRAEL uttered … just unbelievable. Look at the crowd of the first 93 signatories: the worst of the worst of interventionists, warmongers, pro-Israel, anti-Iran crowd over the past decades. Most worrisome if they see the Democratic Party under leadership of Hillary Clinton as their vehicle to extens Pax Americana.
The first names I picked out right off-hand were:
Daniel A. Blumenthal
Michael Chertoff
Eliot A. Cohen
Tom Donnelly
Eric Edelman
Niall Ferguson
Aaron Friedberg
Reuel Marc Gerecht
Robert Kagan
Philip I. Levy
Bryan McGrath
Everett Pyatt
Michael Rubin
Randy Scheunemann
Dov S. Zakheim
Philip Zelikow
Robert B. Zoellick
This is so very obvious with numerous links to the U.S. Navy [incidents of fame or infamy: Bay of Pigs invasion, Gulf of Tonkin false-flag, George H.W. Bush] and U.S. Navy pilot John McCain. Just the name Randy Scheunemann should have been a red alert. None of these people are standard “conservatives” who were once rooted in the Democratic party and there should be no shelter for them in the 21st century. The legacy of president Obama would evolve into a wasteland of fear, terror and war. Who are we kidding for Christ’s sake? A few persons are deeply involved in the 911 Congressional Investigation and cover-up of certain displeasing facts. Truth once again becomes the first casualty towards another global war.
In the letter of the group’s declaration, obvious alert for major bullshit and 5 pinocchios award right off the bat!
Read on in my new diary – War On The Rocks – McCain Surrogate/PNAC/AIPAC