As best as I can, I just want to correct the record on a few points that came up in a previous post by Steven D. We took the post down because of these errors.
Steve contacted me on April 15th, 2007 to inform me that he had written a letter to 6 A-List bloggers asking them to urge Markos to apologize for things he had written about Kathy Sierra. He said he hoped it would not cause a problem for me and offered to resign from the front-page if it did.
I responded by telling him “Whatever happens, I’ve got your back. I doubt that it will be much of a problem. But if it is, don’t worry about it.”
Steve contacted me again on April 17th to copy me onto a bit of an email flamewar he was having with one of the A-List bloggers he had contacted. After I received about six of these emails, I responded by saying, “I agree with you, xxxx’s being a dick. But I don’t want to be part of your disagreement with him. I’ve got your back on this, but it would be better if I wasn’t cc’ed on this flame war because it makes me feel like I should weigh in. Keep up the fight.”
This is the sum total of the email record of my involvement in this ancient episode.
There is no email record of Markos contacting me directly or indirectly to put any pressure on me about this subject or any other. Nor do I have any memory of this happening by phone or in person.
As far as I know, the substance of what was alleged in the prior piece simply did not happen.
In fairness to Steve, I had very little memory of this incident and had to check the records myself to reconstruct what may or may not have happened. Email records may not tell the complete story.
As far as I can surmise, however, I wasn’t pressured or threatened and I never showed anything but complete support for the stand that Steve was taking.
Martin, thanks for your info here based on the best records available, and for your concession that we all have memories which bump up against the limits of humanity and the mists of time.
Nine years is a long time and what I did to my brain for a good part of my life pretty much destroyed whatever counts for reliable memory.
But I think Markos and I came off looking pretty bad in that account and it didn’t jibe with anything I could recall.
So I checked to see what I could discover. What I discovered seems consistent with my character and my experiences (or lack of them) with Markos.
Your Deadhead past hasn’t done you in yet.
Hey, how about that debate?!?
I thought it was outstanding and exciting. Both candidates were made to answer to issues and their mixed records in responding to them. That was in particularly strong contrast to the last Republican debate. A limited amount of evasiveness and pandering was exhibited by both candidates, but politics is not therapy.
I’m a proud Democrat tonight. The main thing the candidates left unexpressed was the evil and profoundly dictatorial Emergency Manager law which is victimizing low-income people throughout Michigan as we speak. Otherwise, great stuff.
I know it’s a bad law, especially the way its spelled out now but a part of me longs to cut through the bullshit and tell people to start marching.
Michigan voters collected signatures to place a repeal of the Emergency Manager law on the November 2012 ballot, voted to repeal it by a wide margin…
…and the Legislature and Governor worked in a special lame duck session to pass another EM law, this one with appropriations tied to it, a maneuver which uses the State Constitution to prevent the voters from bring it up for a recall vote again.
It’s easy to see how this literally abusive response to the voters can work to devastate hope. I wish they had tossed out Governor Snyder and the Legislative majority in 2014, but they didn’t. I suspect voter mobilization will be easier to achieve in the wake of Flint. We’ll know in 2018 and beyond.
It would be great to have comments from Michigan residents here; I believe we have a couple in our community.
Clinton brought the emergency management law in the schooling section, demanding local control be brought back and democracy restored. Or do you mean it wasn’t brought up enough?
I did catch that in a second viewing of the debate. I would have liked both candidates to lean on that a little bit harder, along with pointing out that Flint is the consequence of the Republican ideology of privatizing government. We need to have it better understood that this is more than a Governor Snyder problem, this is an ALEC/Koch-led radical ideological problem.
People will continue to be hurt badly unless we turn away from this path, the quicker the better. If Americans are agitated and frightened by immigration, wait until climate change starts destroying the livability of lands currently inhabited by untold millions of people.
Sanders really hurt himself with his interruptions. It was a gut punch to me when I saw it, and instantly I knew it had the potential to redirect anything of substance they talked about into a discussion of men having the propensity to shutdown women. Now if that is the discussion we have as a result of the debate — I haven’t watched the media or blogs for it yet — it will be unfortunate considering the actual issues that were debated, but it will have been an entirely unforced error on Sanders’ part.
Then when they were talking about racial blind spots, his answer to me said “He could just cite his answer right now as being a racial blind spot as he’s talking about being poor and ghettos with synonymous with being black…”
Other than those two times I thought Sanders did a fantastic job. But the first one made me wince. I don’t expect him to change his style when it comes to pointing and arms flailing because that’s just who he is and it’s part of his whole package (which isn’t the best optically either when they’re standing so close together because it looks like he’s invading her space), but he can change the interruptions.
Clinton’s best answer was about the removal of Emergency Management and a restoration of democracy, and I was jealous that Sanders didn’t answer the question in that way because it’s his bread and butter.
Confirmation they’re seeing tha same lousy polling in the old northwest that everyone else is.
Might be a Devine thing as well – remember Gore invading W’s personal space? change the narrative, change the narrative…
Sanders really hurt himself with his interruptions.
Tough call when a debate opponent continuously filibusters, talks over, and interrupts one. She’s done it in every debate and may have done it more last night. My understanding that Anderson Cooper couldn’t even get her to shut up long after her time was up. She did it in ’08 as well and in at least one of those debates, Obama had also had enough and did what Sanders did last night. Was Obama criticized for that — told that he “hurt himself?”
The double standards have been coming so fast and furious in this election that I can’t keep up with all of them.
I’m not denying that, but you just cannot do it at this level unless it’s in a nuanced manner. I’ve seen clips of Obama doing it and it wasn’t as bad. The optics were terrible, and a lot of women who saw that probably felt personal about it as it’s likely happened to them.
Politics ain’t fair. He should have known this was a possibility and figured out a better way than the way he did it. The audience didn’t like it either, and I think this audience was the most receptive to Sanders if we judge by applause.
What would that better way have been? Recall Gwen Ifill having to deal with this same thing from Palin in the ’08 VP debate. Ifill chose to let Palin do her thing without moderator interference. Didn’t make Ifill look as if she were in command of the situation and she was strongly criticized for it. It was only a single debate, but I do think that letting Palin “do her thing” did help to stop or slow down her slide into laughing stock status.
It’s a “I know it when I see it” feeling. He didn’t have a problem dealing with this in past debates I’ve seen, I don’t know why he did it this time.
It was a gut reaction I, as a Sanders supporter, had. I thought it was a problem.
Sanders let her do her filibustering, etc. in past debates and all the pundits than immediately declared that HRC was commanding and therefore, won by a mile. The one time she got caught short on this, it required the combined efforts of MOM and Sanders.
She’s honed this down to a fine art — either HRC gets to talk more, talk over and interrupt her opponent, and always get the last word or her opponent is being a bully and sexist (even when there’s not a hint of either from her opponent) and she puts on her “poor me” attitude/face. Heads she wins and tails you lose.
Limbaugh is a master at this form of debate. A reason why DEMs/liberals don’t dare attempt to debate him. Sanders has no choice but to debate HRC and is fully aware of all the tricks and traps she lays down. If the public can’t see that and appreciate that for once Sanders said, “enough,” then they aren’t very astute are they?
Also I could give a shit if Obama took a hit for it or not. I’m just telling how I saw it in real time, that I winced when he did it, and that it had the potential to derail the debate on issues. Whether or not it has (or will) remains to be seen.
Thanks for this post. Its difficult to remember things that long ago even with an email record (that may not tell the whole story).
So, Kos’s edict: Dick move or defensible? I generally avoid the primary fights over there but Im not about to give up the fight for Sanders.
It’s only the third one that’s been held there. Not sure why they’ve all been so highly emotional and so many refuse to consider facts and the implications of the facts. This one seems to be the worst. The one in ’04 was over quickly and Kerry hadn’t figured to any extent in the arguing. Can’t recall anything there from ’08 other than the Edwards’ contingent weren’t polite and nice as they’d been in ’04, and I may have checked out early when they became more heated, but I don’t remember so many out-and-out lies about a candidate as Sanders’ has been subjected to. (Oh, there was the guy claiming to have a “whitey” tape. But that was when HRC was running against a black man; so, they used race differently that time than this time.)
Was a disaster. Clinton supporters going on strike, incessent flame wars and eventually (again when the delegate count became painfully self evident) Markos cast the Clinton supporters out into the nether regions of the Interweb.
By then the numbers of HRC supporters had been greatly reduced and they arguments had been reduced down to “a black man can’t win the general election” and “it’s her turn.” Both of which they expressed in the most divisive ways, including unwarranted personal attacks on Obama.
Well, I just took the time to read kos’ original post. I should have done that before I started opining. That said, I wouldn’t change a thing I posted earlier.
I can understand the personal wish to avoid having to deal with people bitching incessantly, getting into online fights and making over-the-top attacks. But when the blog host makes a imperious preemptive statement well before either candidate has the delegates necessary to gain the endorsement that he won’t tolerate certain statements, and makes the definitions of and consequences for “malicious attacks” relatively vague…that’s a pretty toxic brew.
I hold many of the same irritations Markos lists on his post. But I wouldn’t dream of demanding that someone’s posts get taken down for disagreements expressed in the ways he lists. And that’s me, a mere participant in this community. A host issuing a blanket warning like this shows a remarkable vulnerability and lack of trust in his community.
I’ve been following the Sanders threads over there, there are a couple ppl who post news threads that are good, with updates from regions. there’s always a fair amount of trolling, but not unexpected since it’s a big site. the site also has lots of diaries about “why I’m voting for Clinton/ Sanders that I don’t read and may have more name calling. anyway, as I understand it, it’s the end of Bernie news threads after march 15 as the site moves into HRC campaign mode that’s a problem. just seems like more of the same Sanders news blackout, though the sanders news diarists are setting up on reddit. hope my comment is not OT
Kos has had massive quality control issues since the beginning, which is why I’ve never really been a regular visitor to that site.
Not necessarily “quality” control issues Joelcr. Not unless you define “quallity” as what agrees with your own aims and beliefs.
Digital fascism is more like it.
AG
The behavior over there has been horrific. I started out delighted by Sanders, and have had to fight to not allow the misogynistic and rude behavior of some of his DK followers from affecting my opinion of him. I know for a fact that many people have turned against him because of it. When we asked them to stop because they were damaging Sanders, they laughed. Quite a few people have left the site until the primaries are over.
Kos didn’t say people couldn’t support Bernie. He is insisting, however, that they not damage the nominee once the statistics show that the primary is essentially over. These are the same rules that have been in play for every primary. I am personally very excited about being able to discuss the race without being attacked at every turn.
Reset?
Front page posts deleted? You guys do know that it’s 2016 and this is the Internet, right? I’m trying to imagine what was posted in re something about something by someone in re something that happened whenever. Two days later it’s hard to imagine who would bother to care. (Me, notwithstanding.) All posts on this thread seem to be in the vein of “so sorry someone died.” Like they were paying the bills.
So, blood, what’s the scoop? What happened? And what happened that caused it? Who said so? When did they say it and why and how much do they regret what they said? Were they just citing facts, or was actual data involved? And if data, was it good data or bad data? And if the former, was it really good? Or the latter, how exciting was it before it got old?
Anyway, terrible reporting. When you spike a story you owe it to readers at least to recap the original story so they know what you’re talking about.
What did I miss?
Looking into the rear-view mirror. Theme of story .. once online, it’s hard to erase.
Generally agree with your position (and a lot of good comments were deep-sixed along with the FP piece), but in this instance, can’t disagree with the decision to pull it. Trust me, nothing of valid and important substance was lost with the deletion.
Figured. Thanks for filling me in.
I find it hard to believe that anybody still takes Dkos seriously.
Really.
I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt way back in 2005 that at least some “people” on Dkos were troll groups whose job it was to harass posters who might actually be (effectively) saying something other than whatever it was that Moulitsos wanted to hear.
Here is a copy of that proof:
However…for those here who might still think that Dkos is some kind of honorable leftiness site rather than a digital version of the same sort of clomp clomp clomping no-think that destroyed the U.S. Communist Party in the late ’40/early ’50s, I will post the part of one of my diaries that proved “beyond a shadow of a doubt” that there are indeed entities on that site that are constructs. The diary itself seems to have been scrubbed and I did not save my work at that time. However, this part is still available on Booman Tribune and I really have no reason to make the shit up.
As I say above…I have absolutely no reason to make this shit up. None. I have no dog in that fight because I do not much like fighting dogs.
But…there it is, in black and white.
Dkos was a shitshow…I personally believe an intelligence-sponsored-and- run shitshow…from the very beginning.
Deal wid it.
AG