In a candid moment, John McCain would admit that he screwed up when he selected Sarah Palin as his running mate. He’d allow that he and his team did a piss-poor job of vetting her on every level, from her personal life to her performance as the governor of Alaska to her skills as a politician to her base of knowledge and preparedness to be the commander in chief. Even their assessment of her basic character was off by half the circumference of the globe.
But, because people actually care about stuff, millions of Americans who wanted the Republicans to win the 2008 presidential election suddenly had to start making excuses for Sarah Palin’s shortcomings. So, family values went out the window, as did critiques of abuse of power, and the idea that a president should read a newspaper from time to time or know anything about the world outside of the United States.
I don’t really share a whole lot of values in common with conservative Republicans but many of these were values we had largely shared. Really, almost all Americans shared these values.
But the perceived need to protect McCain and prevent an Obama presidency changed that. And the next step, which was a short one, was the Tea Partification of the Republican Party. The damage, in other words, was immediate and lasting.
Now, I’ve been reading conservatives’ criticisms of Mao Tse-tung for decades. In their telling, which is exaggerated but not far from the truth, Mao is the greatest butcher of the 20th Century. In the following Tweet, Hugh Hewitt is willing to allow that perhaps Hitler and Stalin had higher body counts.
3. When Nixon met with Mao it didn't make Mao any less the greatest murderer of post WW 2 era, but most historians rank him effective leader
— Hugh Hewitt (@hughhewitt) September 9, 2016
Now, how is it possible to argue that a man murdered more people in the latter half of the 20th Century than anyone else but that that person was “an effective leader”?
First we have to ask “effective for whom?” because he certainly wasn’t effective for the millions of people who died as a result of his policies.
Second, why is Hewitt even making this comment? What purpose does he have?
And it turns out that he’s trying to rationalize Donald Trump saying that Vladimir Putin is a strong and effective leader by arguing that Mao was also a strong and effective leader. So, in other words, Trump isn’t wrong about Putin. It may be true that some leaders are monsters but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t good for their people and their nation.
Now, is it me, or does is seem impossible to make this argument and then complain about the president issuing a signing statement or an executive order? How can you say that a mass murdering despot is an effective leader and then turn around and say that failing to adequately submit to congressional oversight is evidence of obscene tyranny?
Of course, this is all nonsense. What’s actually happening is that Trump is the new Palin. And if he says warm things about Putin then naturally the next step is start praising dictators and strongmen rather than sticking to that small, local government schtick.
Why does Hewitt do this?
Because he cares about other things more.
On a smaller scale, the same thing happens on the left where excuses are made for Clinton and Obama that would not have been made for Bush. It’s human nature to make excuses if you think you’re doing it for the greater good. And that’s usually a pretty rational thing in a situation where you have a binary choice and a clear preference.
But it’s getting extreme when you start arguing that a homophobic crime boss like Putin who murders his critics at home and abroad is a better leader than our president because he’s “stronger.” And when you justify that by saying that Mao was also a really effective guy, unlike our president, even though he deserves a wing in the mass murder Hall of Fame?
What’s going on here is a clear demonstration of the importance of moral leadership, because without it you can see how fast a party can jettison all the decent things it stands for in the blink of an eye. And you can see from both Palin and Trump, how fast this can corrupt the morals of a party and a people.
People constantly underestimate the value of the Obama family’s example of basic decency. Because the left is not immune to these pitfalls, and there’s a real cost (even when it’s justified) when a party has to rally around a morally compromised champion. See the results of the 2000 election for the Democrats’ most recent experience with that. (And, yes, I’m talking about Bill here).
I give the Republican Party credit for taking a good hard look at all the issues raised during Watergate and deciding that it simply wasn’t tenable to defend their president. That upheld (kind of established, really) a standard worth having. That showed an ability to put country before self-interest.
In retrospect, we can see how rare and special that was.
Mao was extremely effective. Jimmy Carter was extremely ineffective. Nevertheless, I’d rather deal with Jimmy Carter than Mao.
This is a strange idea. Before you say someone was effective, you have to say what it was that they were trying to do and who were they doing it for?
So, I mean LBJ was effective at killing North Vietnamese people.
Mao, was effective at killing his own people.
Is this how we measure effectiveness?
On that level I measure it as ‘making their country stronger amd more resilient than when they got it’ so Obama would be effective, W would not. Stalin was much more effective than Mao. Putin is kind of a wash in that Russia is stronger and more brittle under his leadership. LBJ probably was effective. Carter was not.
Effective is accomplishing what you are trying to do. Ineffective is not accomplishing what you are trying to do.
Can’t find my dictionary right now and you probably prefer a link anyway Webster’s definition of effective
Didn’t see moral as a synonym.
Well, I can’t get into Mao’s mind. Or Hitler’s or Stalin’s, for that matter.
In the end, the results don’t show effectiveness in my mind.
I doubt any leader has ever blundered as epically as Mao in terms of getting the results he intended.
Stalin completely blundered in estimating Hitler’s intentions and capabilities, as well as in whatever fucked up plan he thought he had for winning the proletariat’s war.
Hitler was extremely effective at reducing the Jewish population, but in the end he ruined his country and everything he stood for was left in dust.
So, maybe this setting out to do what you intended to do needs some kind of time parameters.
Lincoln aimed to keep the country in one union. He did that. He was effective.
These other guys? They failed.
Mao was VERY effective in creating famine, political chaos and economic disaster.
The Great Leap Forward is quite possibility the single greatest mistake that was inflicted on humanity in the 20th century that did not involve starting a war. How many died? 20 million? 30?
The only way Mao can be considered as effective is if you define it as holding onto power.
He did that.
Seized it and held it. Lenin was effective too. Also Hitler. I really wish all three had been ineffective.
Mao, Stalin and Hitler were all ineffective in the pursuit of their #1 goals. The ultimate goal of each of them was for their nations to be the enduring, dominant world power. They utterly and catastrophically failed to set their nations on the path to achieve that.
I’m unwilling to cast aside morality when judging the effectiveness of world leaders. It’s inappropriate to take the textbook definition of “effective” and apply it in this area.
Al Capone was a strong and effective businessman. His alcohol policy was extremely popular, also.
You don’t have to go back to 2000 to see a morally compromised Democratic candidate.
Uh, everyone is morally compromised one way or another. To the Mormon friends I grew up with, I was practically hell spawn in college. That said, what is so dangerous, and unusual, is to see major opinion makers of a national party pushing ugly authoritarians mainstream. This is stuff that shouldn’t be taken lightly, which is why it’s disconcerting to see so many Lefties play holier-than-thou with this election.
“[E]veryone is morally compromised one way or another….”
Indeed. Of course, this doesn’t mean you should just punt. Instead, recognize you have flaws, that you make mistakes, and endeavor to do better.
It’s pretty hard to judge in the heat of the moment, but sometimes there may actually be a greater good that comes out of situations in which some people suffer. (Think about, say, a revolution that overthrows a dictator.) I’d suggest the right question to ask–or at least one of the right questions to ask–is whether that suffering was intentionally inflicted. And always be aware of the temptation to make excuses.
Righties too.
I think you’re not reading it quite right: Hewitt’s trying to equate Nixon’s making an extremely important set of agreements with Mao in 1972 with Trump’s praising of Putin in the campaign. He is suggesting that what Trump said is justified by what Nixon did.
I abominate Nixon and Kissinger like all of us, but the work with Mao was worthwhile (in spite of how evil Mao was), as was FDR’s work with Stalin, and there’s no reason to deny it. It’s got no relationship of any kind to what Trump said about Putin in the forum, which accomplished nothing, as well as including a candid admission that you can buy Trump by saying what he wants to hear: “If he says great things about me, I’m going to say great things about him.”
If Hewitt’s suggesting that a President Trump would accomplish something with Russian diplomacy, that last shows you what it would be: For the right flattery, Trump will give you whatever you want.
are you saying that Hewitt meant ‘Nixon’ by ‘he’ was an effective leader?
Because, if he’s talking about Mao, then my point stands.
No, your point stands for sure, he absolutely said that. Where I disagree (or not disagree so much as shift the emphasis) is on the question of what Hewitt wanted to accomplish rhetorically, which you can’t account for without bringing in Nixon–the analogy of Trump:Nixon::Putin:Mao.
I mean Trump:Putin::Nixon:Mao. Dammit.
Not really buying it.
The questions is, “why is Trump saying this shit about Putin and Obama?”
And Hewitt’s answer is, “Because it’s true.”
That’s all I really see.
The ascendance of Hugh Hewitt as a pundit is a massive indictment of the mainstream media in general and Chuck Todd in particular.
Hugh Hewitt’s bootlicking of a man who repudiates many of Hewitt’s previously held worldviews, his bootlicking of a man who has humiliated Hewitt in public repeatedly, is a massive indictment of Hewitt as a human being.
Trump’s dream and all or any of those that support him, is for the USA to be just like Russia. Some will try to dispute the (all or any of those that support him) part. To those, recognize life is not easy and there are whether you like it or not consequences for the choices one makes. Thus simply put you support Trump you support everything that Putin has ever done.
Senator Warren needs to pose this question during her next public appearance….Does The Donald’s love for Putin mean he gives Putin a pass on the Boston bombing?
Never heard him implicated before.
He wasn’t. But in this election cycle, Democrats are pushing the meme that Putin is the world’s evil mastermind. So powerful that he controls the drone bombings that Obama approves and is set to rig the US 2016 general election.
In the last presidential election, Romney played the Putin! Putin! Putin! card; so, Democrats played the opposite card: Romney is stupid and paranoid. Not wanting to be labeled stupid and paranoid, Trump has been running with “we can make deals with Putin.” That position this time is labeled by Democrats as stupid and naive. “We’ve always been at war with Eastasia.” except when “we’ve always been at war with Eurasia.” Propaganda is more effective and easier to promulgate than even Orwell thought.
This is silly, lazy, straight-from-National Review thinking. Trump is praising an authoritarian former KGB agent based on the image of power that he projects and control over his country he has. Trump likes dominance and power; he likes Putin because of this.
Democrats, the President specifically, mocked Romney’s back-to-the-Cold War mentality. Terrorism, Chinese aggression in Southeast Asia, and the poor condition of the Russian economy were and are good reasons to recognize Russia isn’t the center of foreign policy focus. Your mileage may very on the president’s position, but let’s not pretend what Trump is doing now is the equivalent of what was happening in 2012.
Here’s “your lazy”
It’s funny because you didn’t bother reading what I said, or understanding it in the least given my point is what your video link underscores. Trump likes Putin because of his power, image, and control. He says so himself. The Democrats attacked Romney because of his call backs to a Cold War mentality, which of course, put the Soviet Union at the center of our concerns when Russia was the Soviet Union.
Now, as I noted, maybe you feel Russia should be at the center of our concerns. Maybe you think Romney was right! But that’s a lot different from criticizing Trump because of his affinity for an authoritarian ruler.
Yes, she’s conflating issues and muddying the discussion. Romney was attempting to paint Russia as our primary geopolitical threat and, in doing so, needlessly escalating tensions with Russia. This was after Obama went to the trouble, politically, of negotiating a new arms reduction treaty with Russia that the GOP opposed.
The only thing Democrats have done, limited to this election cycle, is call out the Russians for actively interfering in the election to promote their preferred candidate. They are right to do so because this is a threat to their electoral prospects as well as a provocation that will poison relations and invite backlash.
It just so happens that Trump happens to identify very strongly with an autocrat like Putin. Fair game.
This is a hopeless case. You are not going to make progress with her on the issue of U.S.-Russian relations.
When the factual and rhetorical distortions start coming particularly quickly and furiously here, making progress with the distorters is not the achievable goal. Instead, it becomes valuable to enter defenses on behalf of the reality-based community. With that, we can make progress with other members of our community.
The alternatives are expecting the distorters to be persuaded (unrealistic), or ceding the discussions of this community to the distorters (unpleasant). I wouldn’t wish the last on you, Martin.
Just today the US and Russia arranged a ceasefire in Syria. We’ll see how long it lasts but that contradicts your notion that Democrats consider making deals with Russia stupid and naive.
The issue is not deal-making but rather Trump’s admiration for those with absolute power.
Fingers crossed it sticks. Thanks for the update.
Wonder if it is just over Aleppo? The Assad govt has regained the siege, it seems.
This looks like the point in the comment thread at which someone remarks that the Democratic Party generally, and Booman specifically, are using Putin as a bogey man.
I think that historically we, as a country, have had a general agreement among ourselves that there have been some basic moral foundations which we have chosen to hang on our country’s signpost. I know they are sometimes viewed as hopelessly sappy and naive ideals, but they have been there, nonetheless. We have certainly fallen short many times in living up to those moral ideals. There is no generation which has not failed at some point to pass muster on this. Along the way there have been many veerings into the morally questionable areas of national behavior, but it seems like, at some point, the moral compass pulls most of us back to a point of moral equilibrium.
I am sensing that we are at a point where we might very well be heading into some uncharted waters in this regard, with some of the positions and suggestions of Donald Trump. There now seems to be a daily fusillade of positions which are either war crimes, blatantly unconstitutional actions, historically unprecedented authoritarian overreach, or outright morally reprehensible proposals. And a huge block of our elected representatives are simply shrugging their shoulders, and by their silence are giving sanction to this behavior. They are making a political calculation that none of this will actually happen if Trump moves into the White House. The cowardice on display by virtually all the Republicans is simply staggering in its historic context. This, along with the continued massive failure of our media to point out the dangers inherent in having this type of environment, just lends to a total sense of potential impending doom.
I wonder about the fraction of Trump supporters who truly endorse his authoritarian agenda, and I fear it is rather substantial. These are folks who are tired of losing (whatever that even means) and are determined to win, damn the consequences.
The authoritarian mindset is a fascinatingly scary thing. Among those I know on the right who possess it, they seem to be an amalgam of religious fundamentalism, xenophobia, and racism (both overt and covert). They are generally not stupid people. More often than not, they have embraced a circle of information that feeds a vein of paranoia that taps into every one of those three characteristics I mentioned. And they have walled themselves off in this world so much that their doxastic closure is simply irreversible. As a rule, most of them have little to no personal exposure to anyone who is not like them, either philosophically or physically.
And when a person’s mind and world are so walled off to anything which is contrary to what they wish to be true, then their mentality becomes almost cult-like in when it comes to what they believe. It can a very unnerving thing to try and engage someone like that in a discussion, where their premises and deeply held beliefs are questioned or required to be justified.
Projection and Cognitive Dissonance are the twin pillars of modern US conservatism.
Conservatives are literally delusional. By definition.
Objective, observable reality doesn’t matter. What matters is what they tell themselves and each other, over and over and over.
And the things that they accuse others of, are exactly what they themselves are guilty of – hence Rove’s attack of opponents’ strengths as weaknesses, and the projection of their own weaknesses on opponents.
When a conservative is giving a litany of moral, ethical and personal failings of their opponent, they’re actually telling you what they themselves feel personally guilty about. Why this simple tactic isn’t used still confuses me.
can’t undermine the sense of a society and social good for decades without consequences: how to convey any moral sense, even to think about ethics, to ppl who view themselves as isolated units competing against other isolated units? there’s not basis on which to even begin discussion
It is interesting to me that many people who possess authoritarian tendencies seem to be very capable of making what would be viewed as positive ethical decisions, decisions which are based on individual character as it relates to inter-personal relationships; yet when it comes to moral decisions, which can be viewed as widely shared communal or societal norms about right and wrong, they often fall back into some mode of de-personalization and those deeply rooted authoritarian tendencies can take over, which allows them to start turning people into “others”.
It has always kind of confounded me how that dissonance can work in the human mind.
most people try to “be a good person” it’s just the R assault on gov has taken place in a context of assault on the concept of public life, concept of social relationships. that’s more than a generation. I’d say ppl really don’t know how to think in terms of a social fabric or relationships outside individual needs [their needs]. then the 90’s shredding of the social fabric by shipping all the usa manufacturing jobs overseas, assaults on unions, etc all play into this. I think it’s ignorance, unfortunately it’s difficult to learn as an adult. and don’t get me started on the type of relationships fostered by the gadgets that work against dialog for the most part.
Your statement is worthy of becoming a quote.
Atomized citizens competing in a deliberately designed Darwinian society would be kinda confused by demands for them to wear moral bridles. When you get right down to the core of it, greed pays over the long run in that dystopia.
yes. actually the concept of “social darwinism” has been very destructive, a beginning phase of this atomized competing units thing. Darwin’s theory was about biology not society. of course viewing oneself as an atomized competing actor does play in to the promoted view of ppl as consumers and also promoted as “efficient”.
This is simply an example of extreme partisanship, where nothing, not morals, hypocrisy or whatever “evil” there is, will get in the way of excusing the party leaders. Dems do it too, to some extent, but there is no comparison to the extent those on the right will go to excuse and justify their own.
Politico, September 9, 2016 — Clinton Presidential Library releases new photos of Donald Trump with Bill Clinton .
If Caribou Barbie weaponized The Stupid, then Drumpf is Nuclear Grade Stupid.
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They will do and say anything to gain power. I pick the Happy Ending – and will have HRC lawn signs & bumper stickers after this weekend. It’s time to fight.
Business Insider — There’s been a breathtaking swing in Putin’s popularity among Republicans since Trump entered the fray
Billmon tweet:
ALSO
The summer is over, complacency is dead, and markets are fun again
Effective leaders get things done in the short term, intermediate term, and advance significant agendas in the long run. By those measures FDR is one of the greatest leaders of all time. He saved capitalism from itself by building national institutions that had been increasingly effective for several generations until they were dismantled by fools, established SS – the most successful anti-poverty program in America, ever, won WWII in the Pacific, committed to developing a weapon technology that not only ended WWII but provided the foundation for international security that prevented WWIII, and built an international set of defense alliances and institutions for collective, cooperative action.
If FDR had the motivations, morals, and temperament of a modern day republican the world would have in cinders before 1950.