According to current projections that assume Clinton will have more than 63.5 million votes, Clinton is going to retain a better share of the 2012 vote, than Obama was able to retain in 2012 of the 2008 vote. In 2012, Obama had the advantages of the incumbency, the media, being more popular, and not facing a primary challenge to alienate a wing of the party, when he last ran.
A few things to keep in mind when comparing the two elections. The Supreme Court struck down some provisions of the VRA in Shelby Co. v. Holder (2013) which suppressed some of Clinton’s support in this election. Remember Benghazi was originally about Susan Rice and Obama. Once the private e-mai server was discovered, the “scandal” would have been on Obama since it was his administration’s fault according to the MSM and RW Wurlitzer. He also would have had to answer for the VA “scandal,” which never became an issue in this campaign. I grew up in the Midwest and his popularity has shrunk just in the past few years. Even his aides thought his win in Michigan was inflated due to the auto bailout. They had serious questions about if he could have won Michigan this term as the benefit of that action has waned in the minds of the blue collar voter. If Sanders had run, Obama is weakened from the Left due to his failures to reign in Wall St., growing inequality, and he is much more open to attacks on trade due to his endorsement of TPP. If Obama had faced no primary challenge, perhaps he could have run a strong campaign on his economic record and he comes out against TPP. However, I am not sure how that would even work with the voters. I think he would done many of the things the Clinton campaign did.
The Internet Left has not been a good place to discuss the many shortfalls of the Obama Presidency. This is a short list, because I am not interested in tearing down Obama to make this point, I just want to acknowledge the last 8 years were not all milk and honey. The Obama administration and the Democratic leadership sided with Wall Street and corporate interests too many times and tried to blame it on Republican intransigence or obstruction. Nobody put a gun to Obama’s head to pick Comey nor Garland. The Hamp Program was a failure, when Obama sided with the banks over the homeowners. The failure for anyone to go to jail over the criminal acts on Wall St. that led to to the Great Recession showed where his allegiance was tied. Obama chose the banks over people when he eschewed cram down.
“Because of all this, HAMP never came close to the three-four million modifications President Obama promised at its inception. As of August 2014, 1.4 million borrowers have obtained permanent loan modifications, but about 400,000 of them have already re-defaulted, a rate of about 30 percent. The oldest HAMP modifications have re-default rates as high as 46 percent. And HAMP modifications are temporary, with the interest rate reductions gradually rising after five years. The first rate resets began this year.”
billmoyers.com/…
So realizing that Trump was willing to run a more racially charged campaign than McCain or Romney were willing to run, would Obama have been able to win the states necessary? Did Clinton lose due to misogyny that Obama would not have faced? Do more POC vote and at higher percentages to offset Trump’s higher vote total? How much did voter suppression and the media playing up Trump’s threats of intimidation depress this bloc? I don’t have the answers, because there are so many variables.
However, now that the economy has returned to a better place than it was in the past 2 elections many voters wanted to return to their idea of normalcy, which is a white man in the White House. Was it an illusion the past 8 years to think Obama could win an election without some serious headwind in his favor? Would he have even won those elections, if either McCain or Romney had been willing to appeal to our baser instincts.
“There’s an easy rejoinder here: How can this be about race when Trump won some Obama voters? There’s an equally easy answer: John McCain indulged racial fears, and Mitt Romney played on racial resentment, but they refused to go further. To borrow from George Wallace, they refused to cry “nigger.” This is important. By rejecting the politics of explicit racism and white backlash, they moved the political battleground to nominally colorblind concerns. Race was still a part of these clashes–it’s unavoidable–but neither liberals nor conservatives would litigate the idea of a pluralistic, multiracial democracy. Looking back, I thought this meant we had a consensus. It appears, instead, that we had a detente. And Trump shattered it. With his jeremiads against Hispanics and Muslims–with his visions of dystopian cities and radicalized refugees–Trump told white Americans that their fears and anger were justified. And that this fear and anger should drive their politics. Trump forged a politics of white tribalism, and white people embraced it.”
www.slate.com/…
I met numerous white voters almost exclusively male, that were undecided or leaning against Clinton, who claimed they had voted for Obama in 2008. Some voted again for him in 2012, others of this same group voted for Romney, while others stayed home. I asked them if they would vote for Obama now, if he were still on the ticket, and only one stated yes. I have no idea, if these people were telling the truth, I certainly had my doubts on a few, but I think most were being honest.
Something to think about while we participate in our habitual circular firing squad of recriminations. I voted for Clinton in the primaries and thought she was our best choice. I don’t think Sanders would have been able to do better due to the problems of Russ Feingold and Zephyr Teachout in their elections. I think too many Clinton supporters would not have supported Sanders like he would need to win a general election. However, I am willing to admit my analysis could be mistaken.
I think Obama would have won because he knew how to attack his opponents on issues rather than their fitness for the job alone:
He also knew how to argue for himself:
Now I live in South Carolina so all I saw were nationally aired ads about Trump. But that’s all the election was made about: Donald Trump.
I don’t know if Sanders would have won. I know for a fact Clinton could have won. I mean, it’s not like I was supporting Sanders because I thought he was the best choice, but with Clinton/Sanders, I didn’t want Clinton (even if Sanders politics align with mine). Clinton lost for a myriad of reasons that swelled into a perfect storm, but hubris sealed her fate in the end. She thought she could coast on Trump being a bad candidate.
Did you see Obama’s press conference? Pretty much said the same thing.
I mean who comes up with this shit? “America is great because America is good.” “Trumped up Trickle down!”
She sounds fake.
You think the God is great and God is good prayer is fake?
No, I said her response to MAGA sounded fake. Would you prefer “America is already great!” which is what she first started to try using. Both garbage.
She ran ads touting the economic record and revitalizing our infrastructure with stimulus spending in my area. However, her closing message was an uplifting appeal to emotions that I hate. I really hate the emotional crap the Dems have been putting out for years, because I know I’m being manipulated.
I did this diary to show Obama was really weak in 2012. Many people assumed that his performance was typical for a second term victor, when it was definitely not. He was the first 2 term President to win by less in his 2nd race than his 1st, since Wilson and Wilson’s 1st race margin was inflated by a divided Republican Party running 2 candidates.
Democrats just never can rally around the party to get a third straight term. It is really frustrating, because it is killing us. I know Republicans that hated Trump, but voted for him to get the Supreme Court. Democrats have to have that great charismatic candidate like FDR, JFK, Bill Clinton, or Obama that they can pour into as a talisman all their irrational hopes and dreams. When they fail to deliver everything we wanted, we take our wrath out on their successors. Truman and LBJ were never good enough and run out of town. Humphrey, Gore, and H. Clinton were belittled for impressive career’s in public service. Too many voters couldn’t get their special pony be it removal from Vietnam or a bloodless foreign policy. This is the world we live in, not the fantasy one many on the Left escape to when they don’t get their way. The bad Democrats won’t learn their lessons, just like they didn’t from Nixon, Reagan, nor Bush. The Democratic Party just gets a little bit weaker and inches more to the right with some sop like a social issue to differentiate from the Republicans.
I’m just so tired of sitting on the park bench waiting for the next Godot, which never comes.
Of course Obama was weak in 2012. You do realize that unemployment was still 8-9% right? And that any gains made went to the top?
Obama had a 54% approval rating in the 2012 exit poll.
Incumbents with approval ratings over 50% are not weak. Ever.
And Hillary supposedly would have beat Romney by 6-8 pts according to polls taken in 2012 on the eve of the election.
And thank goodness Lyndon was run out of town (even as, even after withdrawing from the race, he tried until the last moment to get back in). Justice was served for his spectacularly damaging war, totally unnecessary.
I just regret he also managed to damage Hubert’s manhood enough to give us an emasculated Dem nominee that year, and thus we got Nixon. Strong character, political courage, as well as charisma, are a potent and usually winning combination. Hubert, Gore and Hillary were lacking in at least one of those areas, at times glaringly so.
I don’t know if JFK would have kept us out of Vietnam. People mythologized him, and his sexual proclivities and reckless behavior are forgotten. That is my point. You want to vilify LBJ. I am arguing they both had glaring failures and accomplishments.
I love Truman, but he had no charisma. I guess his passion and hard work ethos made up for his lack in star power.
Obama wasn’t eligible to run in this election. I prefer to limit my idle speculations to the realms of the possible.
Yet, you have no problem arguing that a person that used the Democratic Party only to run for President and was unable to get the nomination would have been the better candidate. Never dealing with the cost his denying Clinton the nomination would have had on the Democratic base and his GE chances, not to mention numerous other problems with your counter factual. Your definition of possible is quite fungible.
How dare he run against the Queen! It’s his fault for exposing her weakness! That’s what fueled #Bernieorbust and #NeverHillary. Overwhelming hubris. But our host doesn’t want me to criticize her and keeps threatening to ban me for it, so I had better quit this thread.
Nah! I have to make one last comment on this:
It’s OK if you prefer neoLiberalism to Socialism. It’s OK to cite his age. It’s OK if you prefer a candidate with a vagina instead of a penis. Going back to 2008, it’s even OK if you think the light skinned candidate has a better chance than the dark skinned candidate because of other voter’s prejudice. All those things are what priaries are about, choosing the best candidate.
It’s not OK to castigate any candidate for daring to run. Nor to have the Les Majeste to oppose a top down choice. That is a Soviet style election.
Yves Y: “I thought the problem with neoliberalism is that those who are identified by others as having neoliberal thinking do not identify themselves as neoliberal. So all criticism fall on deaf ears.”
Always good to keep this in mind.
“However, now that the economy has returned to a better place than it was in the past 2 elections many voters wanted to return to their idea of normalcy, which is a white man in the White House.”
Well, for many Dems, Obama normalized the recession. Remember the headlines over the median wage numbers the Census Bureau dropped on us a while back? Given a few days of headscrathing at the jump, economic sleuths found that the Census had revamped the methodology in late 2014 and published it on their webpage openly. Of course, would be too much for them to footnote 2015 figures with that information. Quite a coinkidink, no?
And U3 is a nasty joke. Averages conceal soooooooo much.
And ignoring distribution. Hint, hint…the Coasts are skewing the numbers.
Well I certainly welcome new diaries by members I haven’t read before, but I’m surely not getting the point of this one. It appears to be about hectoring the Sanderians for some failure or other, via a speculation about whether Obama could win a third term? And that this somehow proves that Clinton was definitively the better candidate?
First, I have to remind you that Clinton won the nomination, pretty handily. As a Sanderian, I regretted the voters’ decision, but without getting into all the hashed out minutia of the process (which I didn’t follow and couldn’t care less about), in my view more ordinary Dems picked her to run than Sanders. So you got what you wanted. The race was in her hands as our standard-bearer. It was her race to lose, I would have thought all agreed with that. She even got the very opponent she wanted to run against, as far as we know.
Is the idea that Sanders even deigning to run cost us the election? Well, sorry, that’s democracy. There’s no such thing as a non-incumbent having an uncontested prez primary. Apparently you think that a party is somehow to automatically coalesce around a single candidate, here (quite conveniently) the one you supported. Well, how is the party to “know” who the anointed messiah is? Divine revelation? The most mega-donors? What’s the metric if we are to give up multiple candidates and competing policy proposals?
Is the idea that Sanders somehow destroyed her in an unfair manner? As I recall the primary was pretty damn tame. If she ultimately couldn’t withstand the fairly mild (and unfortunately accurate) jabs he threw at her, she had a glass jaw.
Generally, it is thought that a primary helps sharpen a prez candidate, most especially a rusty one, because if they can’t handle and out-argue a fellow party member, then they are going to be mauled by the battle-tested opposing candidate, who really will throw the kitchen sink at them. So again, what’s your vision of a successful primary? I thought the one we had was extremely substantive on a wide variety of topics. If you think it somehow fatally “hurt” Hillary, I cannot for the life of me see any way around that.
The 2008 primary between Obama and Hillary seemed far more acrimonious to me than version 2016, yet it certainly didn’t hurt Obama. Who did you support in 2008? I supported Obama, and all we heard about after his primary win was PUMAs and how the disappointed Hillarians were going to sit out the election. Well, Obama ultimately motivated them, and overcame his divisive primary, handily. He also was the clear pick of the younger voters, as was Sanders. In 2016 we as a party decided to ignore that little metric.
What we seem to have here in 2016 is a huge drop off of Obama voters in a few goddam “battleground” states. We lost the election because a white nationalist saw an opportunity to run a campaign in which he would lose the popular vote but win the electoral college. Who’s to blame for the drop off? Not primarily the candidate herself, according to you.
You know, I don’t really see the Sanderians here arguing that they know he would have won, quite the contrary. But it seems to me pretty clear he would have done at least as well as she did. Further, I suspect every Sanderian here did their civic duty and voted for Clinton.
I’m sorry, but it does seem to me it’s up to the candidate to energize the electorate in their favor, even if (as for every non-incumbent) there has been (gasp) a seriously contested primary! If the reason for Hillary’s loss is this tepid primary, then she was pretty hollow as a candidate.
Finally, I’d note that Hillary herself is certainly not out whining about the primary and Bernie Sanders’ audacity to run for prez, for goodness sake. She’s naming far more plausible suspects and you might want to study her lead.
So yes, we are back to Waiting for Godot. And speculations about whether Napoleon would have won at Waterloo with machine guns won’t speed things up…thanks for your diary.
Sorry, I withdraw the statement about what other Sanders supporters did in the general election. I surely shouldn’t speak for anyone else, my apologies.
“Is the idea that Sanders even deigning to run cost us the election? Well, sorry, that’s democracy. There’s no such thing as a non-incumbent having an uncontested prez primary. Apparently you think that a party is somehow to automatically coalesce around a single candidate, here (quite conveniently) the one you supported. Well, how is the party to “know” who the anointed messiah is? Divine revelation? The most mega-donors? What’s the metric if we are to give up multiple candidates and competing policy proposals?”
I was pointing out different challenges faced between 2016 and 2012. I was not arguing for a coronation. I wish Bernie had the balls to run in 2012. It might have cost Obama the election, so I don’t know how to calculate the cost analysis, but something needed to pierce the Obama bubble and the DNC status quo.
“I thought the one we had was extremely substantive on a wide variety of topics.”
If he had run in 2012 or even in this election, I wish it had been the lofty exchange of substantive ideas that you experienced, because I saw something quite different this year and in 2008. I was shocked at how little thought had been given by Sanders on how to overturn the past 40+ years of racial resentment and divide and conquer used by the Right to roll back civil rights and New Deal legislation. As I was equally shocked at how bad Clinton was unable to articulate her version for increased infrastructure and rural spending. There was one 5 minute exchange in the debate Judy Woodruff and Gwen Ifell hosted. I think Ifell asked the candidates about the Export-Import Bank. I felt Bernie was kind of faking it and tried to save himself by exclamaing “China!” Clinton seemed to give a pretty good answer, but I don’t know enough about the issues to know if it actually was. I would like to have seen an hour long discussion on global trade, to see if my impressions were correct. Except the hosts had to get to their next topic and keep the train running on time.
I had the same sinking feeling in 2008. Yes, Obama may have seemed like a rockstar, but his ideas were warmed over Bill Clinton with a bit Reagan hagiography and sizable bit of bipartisan unicorn porn to make it all seem so serious.
In 2008 the primaries were a train wreck. There were problems the party did not address in terms scheduling of states, caucuses vs. primaries. When an election is that close, it may be impossible to seem like it was a fair and impartial election, but Dean handled it about as badly as possible. It appeared like a deal had been made to make the race seem much more definitive than it actually was. Many people were upset how the process played out, and it proved that votes were not equal. Party rules were more important than democracy. The first in a diet of shit sandwiches over the next 8 years. “Move along, nothing to see” should not be a governing philosophy.
I was a PUMA in 2008. I eventually voted for him or doing my civic duty as you put it. I would have volunteered, if the race had been closer. I regret not helping more, but I thought the handling of the primaries was a time bomb that was being swept under the rug. Nothing was done in the interim, the process and leadership suffered more rot and decay. Then we had the fiasco of this year. The Democratic Party should be one person one vote. When the leaders come out and state it is an impression or some spin it erodes loyalty and looks corrupt. The party need to fix the process, because the winning candidate has no impetus to change rules that benefitted them last time . In addition, if the Democratic nominee losses, they will most likely never run again and if a winner is highly unlikely to have a contested race their 2nd time.
“He also was the clear pick of the younger voters, as was Sanders. In 2016 we as a party decided to ignore that little metric.”
Is this the new Sanders equivalent of super delegates, they override the voters that can be bothered to show up? I guess I should be waiting for Kanye or Kim.
Voting is such a low bar, and the fact that you treat it as some great sacrifice to vote for that person more people voted for in a Democratic process says more about you than the point you think you are making. You are the typical Leftist that plays a liberal on the Internet. Your behavior or thought process can never be challenged. Other little people need to do the work that you deem so necessary. Yet, you can’t be bothered to get your hands dirty or do any actual hard work. It would take time from your very valuable work of getting 50k tweets or posts.
Short answer “No” Would an Obama like candidate have won? Maybe.
Whoever ran had to fight against the widespread perception in “safe” states that Democrats lie about the economy and don’t care about straight white people. Don’t argue that that’s not true. it doesn’t have to be true. It matters if the voters think it.
I think by being a radical deperature that Sanders could have beaten that perception, but I’m often wrong. I’m not wrong that Clinton didn’t even try. And after her surprise upset in Michigan during the primary, didn’t even campaign in the state? Criminal negligence.
Obama would have won MI and WI – he would not have suffered the drop off in Wayne and Milwaukee.
Beyond that, in trail heats Obama beat Trump by 10+.
There is no reason to think Obama would not have won.
If for no other reason than he did not have a private email server.
Have you seen these charts?
http://www.carlbeijer.com/2016/11/2016-was-apathy-election.html
“…deterioration of support is clearly driven by class. Among poorer demographics, Republicans mostly held the line, while Clinton only had minor losses among richer demographics. The big hit for Clinton came among the lower two brackets (losing 7 and 6 points, respectively), while the big hit for Trump came among the rich (-8).
How does Obama overcome that? I don’t think POC votes make up that gap though he would undoubtedly bring those voters out. Guess it depends on distribution.
Based on what Elizabeth Warrent said yesterday, Obama would not have won.
Salon: Elizabeth Warren: Obamacare “wasn’t bold enough”
I hope that the Democratic party takes Warren’s points to heart. Thanks to Trump, the Republicans have abandoned neoliberalism. Until Democrats do the same, they will continue losing. Hillary was the neoliberal candidate par excellance.
We shall see. The deficit hysteria, yes. Public/Private asset stripping of the commons, I seriously doubt. Have read that school privatizations will be on steroids. And NSA/DoD contracts? LOL Plus all the opportunities to make tolls of new infrastructure. We shall see. Many tentacles of neoliberalism.
Except there is nothing of neoliberalism at all in outright corruption. No ideology to justify it; just fait accompli.
Hmm, did you read Monbiot’s recent essay on Neoliberalism as USians do it? It’s not corrupt if the right people profit.
That requires being a supporter of neoliberalism, which I am not.
Thank you, I missed that.
I am trying to point out it was the last 8-24 years that led us to this result, and everyone else seems to want to think this is a critique of Sanders or rehash of the primaries. Instead of Clinton supporters as allies in cleaning up this mess, they want to chastise us for not making the “right” choice back in February or April. This is how they build a coalition?
Preferred narratives never die on the Internet.
I would go further back than 24 years (the Clinton administration). I think the response to the Mondale loss and the illusion that a Democratic Congress could save us forever set the terms for a paradigm leading to one defeat after another.
In 1986, Ronald Reagan made a speech about schools in Charlotte NC. The location is important. Charlotte responded to court-ordered busing by obeying and pulling together a community consensus of the prosperous on how to make desegregated and quality schools a major selling point for its business relocation pitches. And they did. Charlotte boomed in the 1970s and 1980s. Hugh McColl used that prosperity to turn North Carolina National Bank into purchase of Bank of America and then left it to the current nitwits. (But that’s another story.)
So Reagan comes to a nationally recognized case of a city that successfully desegregated schools and was improving education through the public school. And in his speech and in the GOP strategy to take the mayor’s office from African-American Harvey Gantt, the GOP sabotaged that progress. In the next mayor’s race, Harvey Gantt was out and Sue Myrick (later in Congress) was in from 1800 votes in a far south neighborhood that had just been annexed to the city against its will. (NC has or had strong laws to prevent defensive white flight suburbs.)
Yes, Democrats were blindsided, but the GOP suddenly departed from established political norms. And Reagan could spin the media. Gantt then pursued two unsuccessful attempts to bring down Jesse Helms. North Carolina retained its national reputation as the most progressive and Democratic of the Southern states.
That rippled across the South and spawned more foundings of private schools with token desegregation.
Richard Riley ended his two terms as governor in 1987. He was nationally considered an education governor and successfully pushed through a tax increase to fund public schools, which were mostly still public in 1987. He is the last non-DINO governor of South Carolina, and arguably the last of the post-World II progressive governors of South Carolina. The politics of South Carolina and other states did not get frozen until the 2002 election in which Georgians dishonored Max Cleland. In 2006, the Texas legislature did a between-census redistricting of Texas that effectively froze Texas if not through gerrymander through a change of attitude.
The Rush Limbaugh Show burst on the national scene after Congress deregulated telecommunications ownership in 1996. It then spread as ClearChannel bought up rural radio stations. Syndicated on a schedule of three times a day, it became the work environment for much of America. The same year Rupert Murdoch signed Roger Ailes to help create Fox News Channel. Both of these gained attention and power through the Clinton scandals after his re-election in 1996. Why spend so much time taking down Bill Clinton? He was the Richard Riley of Arkansas. Normalizing desegregated race relations and progressive, in the Southern business sense of providing common infrastructure, would have killed the GOP’s ethnic/Southern Strategy and posed an existential threat to the party. Just read some of their reflections on Clinton’s election in 1992. This is not personal, it is about keeping divisions in the grassroots electorate. It is about keeping racial division alive and whites captive to the GOP. This has nothing to do with the sort or racist animus displayed in the few, so far, acts of vandalism or hateful advertisement or assault. But it does have to do with the hidden job discrimination that benefits white males. And it has to do with the assumptions that employers make of what those white males will do that blacks, Latinos, and women will not do. Take talking man-to-man on face value. Thus, many white men believe that they were passed over although better qualified because of affirmative action. I had this bullshit played on me on numerous occasions. At first I was more generous because someone discriminated against had gotten an opportunity. Then I noticed that who was being put in place were white men who were otherwise wired into the job besides straightforward qualifications. I very soon began to discount the reverse discrimination stories that build white resentment on repetition at church, the downtown coffee shop or the bar.
So you have to separate the institutions that perpetuate racial discrimination from the psychological facts of racial resentment, racial prejudice. And you have to realize that most so-called microaggressions are subconscious, not intentional–habitual practices of learned American culture. The folks repelled by Clinton’s poorly framed “deplorables” zinger don’t have the context or experience of dialog to frame what she said. And in any event, it seems to be tactic to rally her base that blew back bigtime with the help of complicit media.
So, would Obama have won this election had he been FDR without a war and looking at an honest-to-goodness third term. I think he could have but not with the same strategy as the last two elections. Geographically, it would have taken some venturing into so-called red territory. Would he start his campaign at his grandparents place in Kansas, for example? And take apart Brownback’s record of conservative policies in Kansas? Would he have run to defeat the GOP instead of just Trump? Would he recount his experience of bipartisanship and how it works in DC? Would he have called to allow him full sail where he tacked and triangulated? Would he use the Kochs and Koch Industries as being populated with workers who depend on bosses making decisions that harm the planet but without the power to rein in those bosses?
Would he have gone to Couer d’Alene, Idaho and talked about Frank Church, the Church Committee, and the dangerous powers the President now possesses but needs a Congress to change?
Would he have gone to North Dakota and outlined a vision of how to get economic help to offset a now declining oil shale industry with rapid deployment of wind generation?
Would he have gone to Philadelphia MS and talk honestly with the white and black inhabitants of Neshoba County about what needs to be done to bring back their economy?
Would he have gone to Houghton-Hancock MI and had a similar conversation with them about their economy?
Or to Honea Path SC to talk about a time 80 years ago when eight members of their community were shot by company goons for trying to get a union at a textile mill and why people organizing collective bargaining of themselves need some sort of protection.
Or to find out about the onions of the Unadilla GA farmers. And the difficult economic prospects for minority-majority Greene County GA?
He went to Cannon Ball ND for a pow-wow before it was famous. Would he go back and talk about the realities of energy policy and the handcuffs of lobbyists?
To the extent that his campaign would not work in any of these venues, he would damage the image that he so carefully marketed in 2008.
I don’t know how taking the cross-cutting women’s issues vote out of the mix would have worked for or against Obama.
And I don’t know how to ensure that he was not shunned by those other than Obama Democrats in some of the counterintuitive places. But the point is engaging with and listening to people with non-canned responses and further questions instead of brushing off people to get to the next handshake, which has become the standard candidate choreography.
The 24 years was for the younger readers.
Why no mention of segregation academies? Seems like your recollection of the Charlotte success was a bit Pollyannaish.
Rush went nationwide in 1988 after the Reagan FCC gutted the Fairness Doctrine in 1987.. All my relatives had “The Way Things Ought To Be” in 1992-93.
Otherwise pretty good recap.
The media is broken and the right has another advantage with Fox and RW Talk radio. Dems can’t come out every few years and undue that propaganda on a whistle stop tour. If you cloned Harry Truman, I doubt you could do it.
It was not the segregation academies (independent or Christian, run by avowed segregationists) that put pressure on Charlotte. It was the affluent prestige private schools that had enough token students to appear to be desegregating while undercutting the funding of the public schools politically. The parents who sent their kids to Charlotte Latin and Charlotte Day School, the earliest suburban private schools very soon found political officials in the GOP who liked their low tax rhetoric. And Democratic officials who were hammered as “tax and spend liberals” trying to defend school budgets, bonds, and county tax increases had an uphill fight as the Reagan economy bit into the middle class suburbanites in the $50,000 to $100,000 homes across the city.
The segregation academies were most intensely the way that rural counties avoided segregation. They elected all white school boards and county commissions that kept taxes and expenditures low. And churches started Christian schools, assisted by the expert resources of Bob Jones University in Greenville SC, which provided the textbooks and the end-of-grade tests for the schools tailored to each state’s requirements. There soon came to be a profitable infrastructure undergirding the segregation schools movement.
Charlie Osgood by 1994 was doing a good imitation of Rush ideology in Paul Harvey cadences.
Democrats in the current environment need their own grassroots media that appeals to the characters of local communities. Air America did that experiment but could not appeal beyond university towns and major cities and could not handle the management and profitability benchmarks (and had no set of angel investors like Limbaugh does.) To deal with that requires either a huge investment like acquistion of ClearChannel (now iHeart) or a change in the ownership rules and syndication rules that allow more local control of media content.
We have had similar discussions over at European Tribune.
So I will quote myself on the numbers.
European Tribune – Comments – Apartheid USA: Will Trump do a reverse Mandela?
After going back to the exit poll I found even stronger numbers looking at:
Only Clinton favorable 41% (Clinton 98 – 1)
Only Trump favorable 36% (Trump 98-1)
That is a very strong correlation, stronger then liking a candidate. They were both unliked and people voted against them.
So had the Democrats run a more likeable candidate or a less unliked one I would say that it would not have mattered that those that unliked both broke for Trump. And had they run a candidate that was credible about bringing change when it comes to the economy they could have picked up more of the voters that disliked both candidates.
I don’t know that Obama would have won, given the whole term limit thing and the backlash that would case. But I think Trump lucked out in the Democrats nominating the second most unliked candidate since measurements begun, in effect a candidate he could beat.
Obama’s favorable #s were artificially high, because he was not on the ballot. Had he been running I doubt he would be in th 50s. I also think Bill Clinton’s were not real back in 2000, because he was not running. Bill never had to run after his impeachment, so I wonder had he been able to run in 2000 if he would have won. His popularity in the heartland really decreased from ’96-’00.
Being from Sweden, do you think Sanders touting of Scandinavian Socialism is honest? Sweden is a much more homogeneous country than the US, so I don’t think it is workable here where there is always pushback and resentment in sharing social programs with POC. It is the main reason Obamacare is still so unpopular. Social Security to pass had to exclude African-Americans. Medicare and Medicaid were vigorously opposed by reactionaries like Reagan and Goldwater, and they used the fact that African-Americans would be covered to drum up support to defeat it. The only reason it passed was due to the fact the Democrats had a 2/3’s majority in both houses of Congress. No party has had that type of super majority since. Sanders can’t get sweeping changes like FDR and LBJ did, because the Solid South Bloc of Democratic votes no longer exists, it is predominantly Republican now.
In addition, hasn’t Sweden politically moved to the right due to the anxiety of immigration the past decade?
I get that retired politicians get a boost, they do so over here too. Term limit shuffles them off before the population gets tired of them. I was more thinking about an Obama-like politician, with a centrist position and personal popularity.
Over to the stuff I know better: Sweden.
The homogenity really depends on your perspective.
In European discussions, southern European socialists often points out that the wide-spread social safety net in northern Europe predates the high trust in the population. Or at least goes hand in hand.
Sure, more people are white, but is not the end of identities.
A quarter of the population in Sweden lives in the former provinces of arch-enemy Denmark (which used to be a big thing). I had a teacher from down there who had been forced to learn proper Swedish (ie, not Skånska) to pass his higher education. We also have the traditional minorities: Sami (indigenous population of northern Scandiavia), romani, Jewish minority, finnish-speaking groups. First two of those were targetted for sterilisation into the 50ies. And then we have the post-war labour immigration: Italians, Yugoslavians, Finns. And the refugees seeking asylum from wars and oppression: US draft-dodgers, Chileans, Iraqis, Iranians, Somalians, Etiopians and Eritreans. And lately Syrians and Afghanis.
Sweden has – from our point in the spectrum – moved to the right since the 80ies. Deregulation of finance leading to bubbles and crises, abandonment of full employment, privatisation of schools etc. Under both right wing and left wing third-way governments. All leading up to succcess for the formerly neo-nazi Sweden Democrats who blames the immigrants, or really muslims overall. And sometimes the Jews. And in northern Sweden, Sami. A year ago when the European policy of bribing border states to keep refugees away broke down, the minority red-green government shut the borders, confirming the Sweden Democrats world view.
So my take is that one needs to aspire to programs that create greater cohesion in the population if those that gain by exploiting rifts are not to win. I doubt Sanders could have won enough to get reforms passed, but it would have been worth a shot.
And one should always go for full employment policies, because as Galbraith notes in The Affluent Society, full employment policies are the foundation for modern (ie post-war) society.
Curious, are most of your social net programs egalitarian–ie, not need based? That has totally disappeared from our policy making. It is all “jump through hoops” and poor shaming.
Yes, most are income related.
As in you get X% of your income (based on current income, or average over last year, up to a ceiling) if you are sick/unemployed/home with child.
When you pass a time period (1-3 years, depending on program) you can become unqualified and gradually descend through the programs until the means-tested bottom rung (which has lowest support and elements of poor shaming).
Sorry I was unclear, but I meant eligibility to all, regardless of income. Tiered benefits aren’t my question.
George Lakey, author of Viking Economics, asserts that Americans generally misunderstand the nature of the Nordic “welfare state”:
Americans imagine that “welfare state” means the U.S. welfare system on steroids. Actually, the Nordics scrapped their American-style welfare system at least 60 years ago, and substituted universal services, which means everyone–rich and poor–gets free higher education, free medical services, free eldercare, etc. Universal totally beats the means-testing characteristic of their dreadful old welfare system that they discarded and that the United States still has.
Oh,public services. Yeah, those are provided free of charge or for a nominal charge and have high public support. Add daycare btw.
But for example 80% of your salary for staying home with your kid the first fourteen months is also universal. And since most have kids at some point, or at least nieces and nephews, the program has huge support. The really well paid hits the ceiling and can’t get more than the well-paid, but Donald Trump’s kids would also be paid for staying home with their kids. And the more people who use it, the more support it has. It isn’t means tested but instead considered a public income insurance.
I thought the lurch towards the right in Sweden was decades old, but I wasn’t sure.
Bernie sells Scandinavia Socialist fantasy and Bernie supporters have no idea how the right has pushed back since the 80’s in those countries. I have talked to Swedish diplomats and businessmen in London and Edinburgh since 2000, that have expressed their discomfort over the rise of the Right and especially the Neo-Nazis. In addition, Bernie doesn’t acknowledge racial divides, he only sees class. Racism was what finally killed the New Deal and Bernie has never offered a solution to overcome it.
Have you ever worked on a campaign? Met a voter that threatened to pull a gun on you? I find the idea that Bernie could have won enough of them compared to Clinton to win the EC just not very realistic to the White Americans I know.
I don’t know if Sanders style socialism can win elections in general, and I claim no foreknowledge that Clinton would lose, I was certain she would win. I was also unsure of how the meet-up between the two most unliked US presidential elections would pan out. But based on CNNs exit polls, disliking just one candidate meant in the end voting for the other (for 98%). Had one side had a candidate that was fairly liked, that would have meant victory. It appears that only for those who like both (very few) or disliked both, the rest (policies etc) came into play.
So if the election was re-run and only the Democrats could switch candidate, and Trumps unlikeability remains the same, Sanders should have won. Or Biden for that matter, he is fairly popular right?
I am bit surprised at that, but there you go.
Booman Tribune ~ Would Obama Have Won this Election?
Several.
Booman Tribune ~ Would Obama Have Won this Election?
Nope. Strange questions, statements of support, people sharing stories and reaching out, been asked if we are supported by secret nazis and many other odd things. But no guns or threats. Have been offered pancakes though.
Sounds about the same as here without the veiled threats of bodily harm. I have been offered many different types of food.
Biden could never get out of the Primaries the two times he ran. He says really off color remarks from time to time. Once he runs, his likability tanks as people remember his corporate votes to protect the credit card companies and his failure during the Clarence Thomas confirmation. I doubt he could have won the Primary, but who knows. His appeal to white voters is overrated, and his 45 years in power would have worked against him in a matchup with Trump. He should be able to carry PA in GE, but maybe not.
Sanders likability would have suffered in a GE. He was not really vetted by the media, because they wanted a race in the primaries. His socialism works against him with Latinx groups, because many left their home countries to escape socialist governments. He would have been painted as a Communist by the Republicans. He never released his tax records, so there was no differentiation between Trump’s noncompliance. Again he might have won, but I think the Democratic Party would have done worse in the other races. In the Primaries, he would have needed to get a sizable lead in the vote totals not to alienate the Clinton supporters. If the Super Delegates gave it too him, it would have been chaos as Clinton would have been perceived as being robbed of the nomination 2 times in a row.
Too many variables to consider and feel like any other alternative would have definitely been better, although it feels like any other Democrat should have won. The media was so in the tank to make it a close election for monetary reasons. I am not sure how any Dem overcomes their power to frame the election. By many historical trends this was 50-50 election with a slight Republican tilt due to economic conditions and the desire to switch parties every 2 terms.
Sweden may not be Paradise and neither is Norway. But I have exchanged e-mails since 2000 with my High School’s Exchange student from there in 1962-63. Bjorn (sorry don’t know how to put the symbol on top of the o), is now a retired government civil engineer as is his wife. Life is not perfect, of course, but it sounded damn good. I got his e-mail address at a High school reunion from another fellow student who had kept contact as they are both anti-war activists.
He was familiar with old place names and promised to take us to my wife’s ancestral villages if we ever get over there. Genealogy is difficult because they kept the old “son of” naming system up into the 20th Century.
Actually “dottir” as her Norwegian ancestors are all female.
I find Europeans are always surprised at the melting pot (or “stew” in another analogy).
“There” being Norway, I see I wasn’t clear. I don’t know anyone in Sweden.
You’re not on Obamacare are you?
Me or someone else? I’m not on it.
Thought not.
What is your point? I didn’t support it, and have helped countless Trump low info voters get better coverage. Do you not qualify for Medicare?
Seriously you seem like a bitter old man. However, if your health coverage is lacking or nonexistent, I will try and help if I can.
Zombie factoids that feed grievances…The Decision to Exclude Agricultural and Domestic Workers from the 1935 Social Security Act
If you have more definitive information, please link.
FDR was behind it to get the Southern Democrats on board, what do you think you are proving? Of course the official historian of SS is going to whitewash the sordid history to put the best possible spin on an uncomfortable history.
“Most women and minorities were excluded from the benefits of unemployment insurance and old age pensions.[9] Job categories that were not covered by the act included workers in agricultural labor, domestic service, government employees, and many teachers, nurses, hospital employees, librarians, and social workers.[10] The act also denied coverage to individuals who worked intermittently.[11] These jobs were dominated by women and minorities. For example, women made up 90 percent of domestic labor in 1940 and two-thirds of all employed black women were in domestic service.[12] Exclusions exempted nearly half of the working population.[11] Nearly two-thirds of all African Americans in the labor force, 70 to 80 percent in some areas in the South, and just over half of all women employed were not covered by Social Security.[13][14] At the time, the NAACP protested the Social Security Act, describing it as “a sieve with holes just big enough for the majority of Negroes to fall through.””
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Social_Security_in_the_United_States
Many historians fall into the trap that Southern Democrats were liberal in FDR’s 1st term at some point then became more conservative. However, they fail to draw the connection that they became more conservative due to the realization that the New Deal would involve blacks as well. Even a small percentage was too much for many of them. Were there some true Southern Democrats that were fighting for all workers, supposedly. I can’t think of one of the top of my head. Florida Sen. Claude Pepper one of FDR’s strongest liberal allies in the South filibustered the 1937 anti-lynching law.
That was written by the historian of the SSA, hardly an unbiased sourced. Given how many other new deal plans deliberately excluded people of color I feel comfortable saying that SSA was designed that way as well.
Did you happen to read how many outside scholars participated in the review of the paper?
But really, is a waste of time to even bother.
Do you realize how many scholars staked their reputations on the contention that there was no evidence of a relationship between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings up until the release of the DNA study on her descendants? Why are historians exempt from this axiom?
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
― Upton Sinclair
And your implication is that they are all whites (which we don’t even know) with a white-washing agenda that skews their scholarship. Oh, and they hated women, too.
Well, there are plenty enough examples of bad behavior elsewhere documented by white historians.
Who is writing their checks and who will be writing them forward, if they contradict the official story? American historians have had a financial incentive to minimize or disappear the effects of racism for over 2 centuries. In addition, sometimes it is imperceptible to notice unless one is vigilant, and then one is open to charges of bias.
Why are you so emotionally invested in this specific history as being perceived as color blind?
I think it meets the test of contemporaneous documentation that the fields of employment were restricted for implementation purposes.
“In late January, after hearings on the bill had opened, the Secretary of the Treasury came to the President to confess a change of mind: he now disapproved major parts of the committee report he had signed, and wished to propose two key revisions when he appeared as a witness before Ways and Means a few days hence. One of them repudiated the principle of “universal coverage” adopted by the committee after full discussion. Morgenthau now proposed to exclude from Social Security farm workers, transient labor, domestics, and those working for anyone with fewer than ten employees–in other words, those who, of all workers, had least security and were most ruthlessly exploited. It would be too hard to collect payments from and for people in these categories, he said.
[I think as a bloc of workers, the small business exlusion would have numerically dwarfed the agricultural exclusion.]
Roosevelt himself had proposed an extreme universality of coverage in private talk (“I see no reason why every child, from the day he is born, shouldn’t be a member of the social security system”).
… When finally reported out favorably on April 5, it was in a revised form that incorporated the substance of Morgenthau’s testimony on funding and coverage while also curtailing federal authority to impose minimum pension standards–this last a concession to Southerners who feared the forced payment of pensions to aged blacks higher than local Southern whites deemed “desirable.” [There is your Southern influence.]
[I think as a bloc of workers, the small business exlusion would have numerically dwarfed the agricultural exclusion.]
A look in detail at the history of the process from a less sympathetic source?…http://www.americanheritage.com/content/birth-social-security?page=show
I repeat: Why are you so emotionally invested in this specific history as being perceived as color blind?
You have gone out of your way to avoid answering the question. You are blind to what you posted having a fatal flaw in making your case. I doubt you are even aware of it.
I could ask the same of you, no?
It is really immaterial to the facts.
IOW, the documents are sufficient to me.
Why they are not to you is your concern.
What is your point? Don’t post almost 40 year old material that probably has a blind spot to the distinction between equality of provision and equality of outcome. Don’t post anything else. Just state what you think is wrong, and you think I am not addressing. Or you go on the ignore list.
Look at who made the changes. Treasury. Everyone’s money is the same color.
They had a real problem with the first generation of pay-outs if the program was expected to pay its way. Industrial workers made more money (more tax pool there)and it was simpler to oversee compliance. (We still see wide non-compliance for domestic workers, btw.)
Classes of workers were being added up til the 50s.
The reason why I think 40yr old documents are a fair look and pertinent to the discussion is that there was NO DOWN SIDE to being frank about motives at that time. They freely state the concessions in pay-out to black recipients that they made to Southern interests.
Er, 80 yr old documents. I do trust they were using original sources, no?
I’m responding to both of your last 2 comments here.
I wrote something off the top of my head. If my word choice in a few sentences was not precise in relaying the complex negotiations that took place in enacting SS in the 1930s, and you had a problem with it, ok I think I understand your point. We don’t know the all the discussions and the exact pressure dynamic exerted during this process. We have a version of how it played out, but how certain are we that it is the whole story? There were no blogs like this, LG&M, and Kevin Drum to question the contemporary reporting or the first few waves of historians research and analysis. Kenneth S. Davis is a few years older than my grandfather. Davis was the product of a segregated school system in Kansas and Kansas State University. If he was anything like the academia I experienced at KU in the 1970s and in the Mid-Atlantic in 1980s and 1990s, he would seem like a person that would be satisfied by noticing a few racial problems and perhaps missing a few more strands. I am not sure if he would be the best person to see problems in the program in delivering equal participation and outcomes.
Using the input of Morganthau is a red herring in my estimation. What difference does the Sec. of Treasury’s decision to side with conservative business interests have to do with anything? Would the input of a 19th Sec. of Treasury like Taney, Chase, or Sherman have made an administration’s decision to not pursue emancipation or Reconstruction any less discriminatory? The U.S. status quo was based on some level of white supremacy at the time, and I’m not sure how Morganthau and FDR would be exempt from it just in trying to craft legislation that could get enough votes to pass.
I noticed you and your sources have never made any mention of the AFDC component of the SSA.
“Historical discrimination in the system can also be seen with regard to Aid to Dependent Children. Since this money was allocated to the states to distribute, some localities assessed black families as needing less money than white families. These low grant levels made it impossible for African American mothers to not work: one requirement of the program.[17] Some states also excluded children born out of wedlock, an exclusion which affected African American women more than white women.[18] One study determined that 14.4% of eligible white individuals received funding, but only 1.5 percent of eligible black individuals received these benefits.”
https:/en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Social_Security_in_the_United_States
Unsure how Davis and Dewitt ignoring this part of the program completely and Morganthau’s lack of involvement buttress your argument.
“A bit of backdrop. In the book, Katznelson notes that the Social Security Act of 1935 might never have passed without support from the 141 Democrats from Southern states. And, the book strongly implies, many of those Democrats only supported the bill after it got tweaked in committee so that it excluded farmworkers and maids — who represented two-thirds of black workers in the South at the time.”
https:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/03/a-second-look-at-social-securitys-racist-orig
ins
Dewitt’s conclusion is mentioned extensively in the article, but the AFDC discrimination and the NAACP’s objections are not mentioned.
When you stated what I wrote is a zombie lie is at best disingenuous. There is still a vigorous debate, which I think Dewitt is losing. The problem is reporters are not well versed enough to critique or understand fallacies and fundamental problems in analysis and research.
Was it tl:dnr? My first link’s primary effort was to try and disentangle politics of the Title I, II, and III.
“It is important to make these distinctions because, as it turns out, many of the claims of racial bias in the coverage decisions involve confusion regarding these programs–or if not outright confusion, oblique arguments that political factors known to have influenced one of the other programs could somehow be presumed to have also been active in shaping the Title II program.”
That was true in the Depression Era, it was not true after the post-WW II northern migration of the 1950’s. Women were still under represented, but black males held industrial jobs in the North. Granted, they were mostly dirty industries like Steel and Meat packing, but they were SS jobs and often Union jobs. Until, I would say around 1980, blacks were under-represented in white collar jobs. And I never noticed many black managers until 2000. Now both black and white are being supplanted by Indian managers.