In 2005, I started to blog at Martin’s pond because he was a heck of a writer with excellent progressive views about politics and the Democratic party. It became easier to find residence at the Pond because Daily Kos became rampant with policing of thought, harsh comments and ejecting bloggers with deeper reasoning or just a philosophical approach to culture and movement in human kind.
In addition, Martin started BT to provide a platform for international issues. Later the European Tribune was started and many bloggers from Europe continued there. Because I’m an American citizen, I felt more at home here at BT to write about the effect of US foreign policy in the Western hemisphere and, because of George Bush and the Iraq War, on the Middle- or Near East.
In recent times, the Pond became less inviting to bloggers not toeing the party line, whatever that may be. What in the past had been set in guidelines at BT, trolling of fellow bloggers became a daily concern. I had written about this in a diary:
Un fortunately, these Orange traits seen at Daily Kos which caused many excellent writers to escape to elsewhere or were banned by the guardians, is slowly turning this blog sour. I will not turn away unless Martin “uninvites” me. I know Martin, this will not happen.
So I hope the marduks, Beahmonts, nalbars and maythirteenths of this blog stop their effort to silence fellow bloggers writing at BT. Democracy and the progressive line for American politics will be much better off with diversity in thought and analysis. Infallibility is part of religion, not in political discourse. No one possesses to claim for the only truth … Pravda was part of communist doctrine or Stalinism. It doesn’t belomg in the culture of Booman Tribune … or the true frogs gathered at Martin’s pond.
I go back to August, when nothing much was happening in Clinton’s campaign, and I asked her to talk with me only about what her website said was her signature plan — a $270 billion proposal for infrastructure spending. Word came back that she wasn’t going to discuss it in any detail. To my knowledge, she never did.
It must be quite a relief, a warming feeling all over,
to think you can win political campaigns without ever
having to wrestle with complex subjects or talk to
anyone who doesn’t already think you’re right.But the Cult of Demography was built on some very flawed assumptions.
[Source: Matt Bai’s Political World ]
Because you named me by name (something I don’t do) I will respond in one of your republican lite cesspools. Find a downgrade by me that does not involve racism. Maybe some obscure one that I did in a fit of pique (one springs to mind, but it stubbornly won’t let me change it). But considering how little time you spend worried about POC, I’m sure those downgrades bother you.
In the time of greatest need, when the stakes were highest, you chose to spend your time posting links of republican memes and made up scandals. Your HATE of democratic leadership (funny how you favorites are consumed with hate, huh?) caused you to lose sight of what POC will face in the coming years. That’s completely on you. Totally. Your a hack. Your cohort are hacks. I could live with that, but your republican hacks. You wanted a democratic reset, THIS IS WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE.
Now you want to blame those people when they tried to explain what you were doing, and how it hurts the cause. Now you will assume the (fake) persona of giving advice.
It’s on you. I so look forward to you links on Trumps appointments. But first, how about another diary about fucking emails, you hack. You and your republican cohort have ruined this site.
Now your (racist) cohort can down grade this, and put the lie to you and your friends.
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Mirror, mirror on the wall
Who is the fairest of them all
Thanks for the downgrade, hack. I’ll wear this one with honor.
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And like always, the racists come along to upgrade you.
Congratulations on your followers.
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You’re Welcome, SJW. It must be wonderful to just scream “Racism!” whenever someone disagrees with you. It beats thinking.
Oui has been here forever. I find him too far Left for my taste, so it’s a real side-splitter to hear you call him republican-Lite.
Oui has two redeeming qualities:
Which faults do those qualities redeem voice?
Or is it an inoculation, just in case?
Thx Voice and many, many friends here at the Pond throughout the years … since Spring 2005.
I started blogging in the campaign leading up to Election year 2004, yes at Daily Kos. Within a year I was banned, redeemed and banned permanently. We had many discussions here at Martin’s Place and the anti-woman rights pie fight @Orange led to many fine female bloggers joining here at the Pond. As I recall the user IDs increase sharply from 500 to 1500. Those were the days of the Welcome Wagon diaries. Almost seems ages ago.
It truly was fun blogging in the early years. I even got a nomination for the Koufax Award … amazing period.
A number of years ago when we could have discussions and arguments in a firm but friendly manner, a front pager held a poll about our support for progressive policies. The criteria for being “left” – “centrist” – or to the “right”. I have held a pretty steady course of being just to the left of center by US standards.
What is “right-wing” in The Netherlands and in “socialist” Europe will be considered centrist in the US.
To be able to determine the effect of US foreign policy, one needs to be out of the American echo chamber of government and media propaganda. Unfortunately under the second term of Obama, the secrecy has increased, whistleblowers prosecuted by means of the Espionage Act of 1917 and propaganda has replaced honesty in official statements from the White House, State Department and the Pentagon. NATO has turned a leaf and has been designed for aggression, a renewed Cold War footing instead of the Defence Pact it should be.
Article 5 was invoked after the 9/11 attacks and NATO became an expeditionary force for the US in Afghanistan, Iraq and later in Libya for the overthrow of Gaddafi. NATO and its partners played a crucial role in the eventual slaughter of the civil war in Syria. Millions of Syrians are suffering great anguish and European nations shun their responsibility for the resulting refugee crisis.
Turkey has played a secretive role in supporting Al Qaeda rebels and turning a blind eye once the Islamic State extremist formed with the support of Saudi Arabia, Qatar (Muslim Brotherhood) and the Gulf States. Even Israel became aligned in support of Al Nusra on the Golan Heights region of Syria to attack Syrian forces in the flank of Damascus.
Fortunately for Assad, the military might of Hezbollah in Lebanon would be used to close the border and prevent Sunni extremists / jihadists from traveling to an fro Lebanon-Syria. Lebanon has remained fairly stable although their population increased by 25% due to refugees.
I’ve pretty much read and heard all claims …
You sir are the first to put the blame for HRC’s loss on me. Too much honor, really! 😉
That’s a lie.
I put YOUR ACTIONS leading to the election ‘on you’.
But I understand how anxious you are to redefine that.
Clinton’s loss is on her, Comey, the media, and the racists that voted for Trump.
The way you chose to spend your time leading up to the election ARE on you.
Congratulations, you got the reset you wanted. I’m sure POC paying the price is an acceptable price to you. And a registration list for Muslim Americans? Small price to pay.
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This, the ugliness started well before bernie lost the nomination. And the shitty behavior kept on going, but somehow its all the fault of the people criticizing the shitty behavior.
I was sick of reading a lot of the bs, and got turned off badly, i enjoyed BT until this whole crappy episode began. And ofcourse ist part of the change thats happening. But there is so much childlike behavior going on, especially the feelings of victimization, and how that exhibits itself in people. Somehow i expected better on BT, but people are just fucked up badly i guess, more than what i can feel as an outsider.
I hoped that a Trump win would make people realize their priorities, make the analysis a lot less complicated by such an event, i was wrong about that people still seem to cling to the anti clinton feelings, even demanding that we all should.
Maybe its just cynical political calculation, anyway thats what it feels like sometimes.
You write:
For most of us anti-Clinton, anti-DNC people it is not “cynical calculation” that moves us, bazzz. It is moral calculation…moral calculation based on the idea of karma, although some do not recognize it as such. The old street saying “What goes around, comes around” sums this position up, as does Malcolm X’s dire warning over 50 years ago about chickens coming home to roost.
It is fashionable…and quite accurate, on some levels…to decry the idea of “morality” in the political sphere. It is accurate because most politics in all countries do not have much to do with morality; they are simply about winning by any means necessary. This is why war has been a mainstay of history for eons. The problem now is that “war” has taken on another level of meaning since the dawn of weapons of mass destruction. “War” now means the eventually assured destruction of the human species and probably all life on earth as well. We must either become more peaceful of die. Simple as that.
The U.S. has become the single most warlike country on the planet since the end of W.W. II. Its military. By miles. Its internal politics are largely controlled by people who make a living on war. Opposition to the mainstream Dems and Republicans both is based as much on that as on anything else.
Practical morality.
Or:
My own choice is clear, as are the reasons for it.
It’s not about political expediency; it’s about sheer survival.
AG
So it was a moral calculation to make trump win?
Thats what it felt like reading the comments on clinton. And the reaction of the press, and in the end the voters who couldnt make the choice between stupid choices of clinton, versus the blatant nonsense of Trump. And your moral superiority helped to get what you wanted, rather the risk of trump than a boring candidate of your own. Moral outrage that made people doubt who was decent enough, and empower the ugliest side of societies underbelly.
Was it worth it? Do you think it was moral to choose the uncertainty for millions of muslims? well noone seems to care much for them.
Was it worth the uncertainty for illegal immigrants? nah they arens as scary as muslims, but still eww noone cares.
Was it worth it for the uncertainties of international politics that a president Trump brings with it? Will he have the judgment to reconsider all these clearly destructive promises he made. Nah that will be just fine and dandy.
was it worth it for the people in the lowest classes of society, who are uncertain of healthcare, education, and whatever
I use uncertain, to be certain to not get hyperbolic.
So thats what your moral superiority chose, and you chose for those consequences. So would you consider it even surprising that not everyone trusts your moral priorities, or your moral judgment?
Is it strange that people may not be too happy with that moral superior behavior? And that you try so damn hard to bury the criticism under that blanket of moral superiority?
Maybe i am getting it all wrong and you have a much better explanation, if so, please tell us, we could use it.
There is always a third way in a three-dimensional universe, bazzz. In the stick-figure, two-dimensional universe of the mass media…a universe to which you seem to ascribe…it’s either/or. Opposing HRC and Trump does not mean a certain win for Trump; it means that there are people who understand that both sides in that either/or calculation are betting on a stacked deck of choices.
Stacked in favor of the status quo.
Fast or slow, we still seem to manage to get to the same (warlike) place.
AG
That was beyond lame AG, I dont expect much from you.
You choose to ignore everything i said, only to tell me “WRONG”
Especially the bit where i leave the door open for you to tell me how you see my interpretation of your behavior. Ofcourse you have your rationalizations, are you scared to talk about them? Or is this a trumpism? “i have a plan, you will see!” whats the plan, AG? “Yeah like i am going to tell YOU my plan!”
If you think i am two dimensional, and that that adresses the criticism i just gave you, fine.
But the way i see it is that you just lacked the confidence to defend your rationalizations, and mounted a weak attack in order to deflect what i have just said.
There was much more there, you probably lacked the balls to properly read it.
See my earlier comment about the DP fallacy relying on demographic trends …
○ What So Many People Don’t Get About the U.S. Working Class | Harvard Business Review |
It’s like God got up this morning and said ‘nalbar has had a tough 6 weeks, time for an early Christmas present’.
An personal diary aimed at specific members by a hack republican, just like what happens a dkos. A diary based on a false premise, with no evidence, who then immediately does what he falsely accused others of. Then a lie, then an out of context link. Then upgrades by the republicans racist followers.
Now all we need is the libertarian Rand Paul republican to chime in about his ratings, and how unfair it all is. With insulting pictures to blow the whole diary up and make it unreadable.
If I wanted to write a diary of why the pond is not what it used to be, I could not do better.
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And here he is.
Be proud of your followers Oui, you earned every single one.
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Btw … thx for your comment.
Instead of hiding behind your troll rating and a few cohort trolls.
Thank goodness it’s just a handful who don’t abide by the rules of BT guidelines.
At last we meet … DLTDKYB
Think about hack. You’ve been gone about a week. Disaster has struck American.
Is your first diary about Trump? Is it about how foreign countries are nervous? Is it about his neocon appointments? Is it about Medicare? Is it about the ACA?
No, it’s to complain about downgrades! And your poor feefee’s! Calling downgrades ‘censorship’ is about as childish as you can get. Nobody is taking posts away.
Let me explain what censorship really looks like…..it’s when a person posts a diary and your cohort goes into it and shits everywhere. Hijacking it and using it to repeat republican memes. Then when the OP deletes it in frustration, (you) accusing him of breaking norms.
That is censorship. Quite literally you can’t post a diary here these days. It’s hijacked instantly by Putin loving, Comey explaining, GG loving wankers like you and you republican friends. With pictures!
But give one of them a downgrade? OMG CENSORSHIP!
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Strange reconstruction of my dozens of diaries on foreign policy.
I could have written a diary: I told you so from the arguments put forward in what should have been a Democratic primary season, not a coronation.
FWIW … all good folks lost with the election of business mogul Donald Trump … one of many American oligarchs. WE LOST!
○ War Gods, Steel, Executive Powers and Youngstown, Ohio
○ Capitalism Hates Investing Long Term
“I don’t understand the point unless Rendell is simply addicted to seeing his name in print. I don’t actually think that he’s doing it on the behalf of the Clintons, although his motivation probably stems from something that happened during the 2008 primaries. Rendell could probably count on a cabinet job in a Clinton administration without spending all his time tearing down Obama. It’s not clear that the Clintons even want Obama to be torn down, since a weak Obama will make it harder rather than easier for Hillary to win the presidency.”
[Source: BooMan’s Wanker of the Day on Dec. 3rd, 2013]
Heeding the warnings from the rust belt in 2008 primary …
○ The Boss Weighs In
Aren’t diaries like this…personal attacks not based on facts….just what you’ve hated about dkos?
IOKIYAR
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I’m still waiting for links to my troll ratings.
I’ll wait a long time.
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○ November thirteenth
Typical hack work from you. Here is the diary which you don’t bother to link to because it explodes your accusation. A racist rant, which even Booman chimed in on. I was one of three trusted users who reacted.
So typical of your work.
Now show me a troll rating not involving egregious racism.
By the way, as a trusted user you are supposed to follow the rules here. This is listed as a ‘World Diary’, and no way it is. That’s a pretty bad violation of the rules.
But I understand, like your 0 above, IOKIYAR.
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No Oui in that diary. Take your meds.
That’s in reference to dataguy’s meltdown, right? Yeah, that was definitely not a shining moment in this blog’s history. There are plenty of things that have historically been forgivable and forgiven on this blog. Overt racism is not one of them. Sigh, but for all I know, even that may have changed now.
Don’t argue with them, Oui. It’s useless. They either can’t get it, won’t get it or are somehow profiting from the experience.
The other side of the lockstep alt. right.
The alt. middle.
They deserve one other.
Let ’em fight it out in the digital sewers.
AG
Posted earlier in Marie3’s diary to a comment about – Obama and Putin.
Figment of imagination …
Putin has been supporting right-wing movements across the West in order to weaken NATO
Care to back this statement with arguments, examples ar a link to an excellent article?
Looking at most of “New Europe”, it’s the other way around … fascist states allied with Nazi Germany against communism, participating in massacres of Jewish fellow citizens and functioning as a spearhead for US intelligence against communism after the defeat of Nazi Germany – see Gladio. Now used by the CIA in the coup d’état in Ukraine in Februari 2014.
Ahhh … searched for it myself, a paper written earlier in 2016 … how convenient!
○ Putinism and the European Far Right | IMR|
The paper, authored by Alina Polyakova, Ph.D., deputy director of the Dinu Patriciu Eurasia Center at the Atlantic Council , was originally presented at the 2015 ASEEES Annual Convention.
Policy set by the Atlantic Council years ago: make Russia a pariah state. Written about it many times. BS and more western propaganda. The West has aligned itself with jihadists across the globe, Chechnya included. Same as in Afghanistan, these terrorists were called “freedom fighters”. See John McCain in northern Syria with same cutthroats.
Absolutely outrageous! See her twitter account with followers/participants Anne Applebaum and former and now discredited Poland’s FM Radoslaw Sikorski.
Pitiful and so uninformed!
Booman post “Pravda” – here.
Liked by clearskies 4 – maythirteenth 4 – marduk 4 – bad company
h/t MoA – How White Helmets Videos Are Made
A second source – Syrian rebel media releases staged White Helmets rescue “mannequin challenge” video — then deletes it also archived original video and tweet.
The White Helmets’ public profile has been carefully cultivated by The Syria Campaign, an
advocacy group that lobbies for regime change on ostensible humanitarian grounds and that
was created by a Western PR firm, with the help of exiled Syrian-British billionaire Ayman Asfari.
○ Syria timeline
My earlier posts about the rebel forces’ “White Helmets”.
○ Americans Living In a Parallel Reality on Iraq and Syria
○ UK Commons Calling for WRexit In New Attack on Russia
○ Fake News Alert: CNN Finally Admits “White Helmets” Staged Fake Video by Tony Cartalucci
○ Radek Sikorski Returns to Ukraine’s Headlines: Putin’s Coup
○ Anne Sikorski-Applebaum the Raving War Lunatic
○ Making An Enemy – Demonizing Putin Endangers America’s Security
Put you toe in the water at c99 like Steven D.
I mourn for what this blog was.
if you believe that Hillary would have been a worse president than Trump, c99 is the place.
Do you have a time machine that allows you to observe the next four years under two different presidents? I’d sure like to borrow it; so, I too could know now what everybody will know then.
Those that couldn’t even come close to foreseeing a Trump nomination and/or a possible Trump win should be careful in asserting that they know the future.
I’ve voted for a lot of losers over the decades. My assessment then and now is that they were the better person for the job. Sometimes a lot better and sometimes only slightly, but never that they were evil. In all those votes I’ve cast for president, I only regret one and as I’ve never voted for a Republican or a third party candidate, that makes for a short list as to which one I regret. This has been the first election since I was old enough to assess the choices (I’m including 1968 when I wasn’t old enough to vote) where the choices were both awful and awful in different ways. And in the long run, which is a major evaluation variable for me, I still haven’t a clue as to which would be less awful.
Clinton 1992?
So did I. In fact that was the first Presidential Campaign that I did substantial work for. A heady feeling to be fighting back and the sweet taste of Victory. OK, he turned out to be a shmuck, but I can’t really say I regret it. The sweet wine of fighting back at everything that Bush I represented was too intoxicating. Even if I was just used.
I will always deeply regret.
Name one governor that also had zero time in any office in DC that went on to become a good POTUS?
See this is what pisses me off
You make a statement that I am sure is wrong.
And then…
Clinton he had his uses,but..
Reagan. Nope.
Carter. Meant well,but nope.
FDR was sec of navy.
Wilson – his rep is pretty good. Don’t really know much.
TR was VP.
Mckinley – Gore Vidal liked him. Not a clue.
Gover Cleveland – no idea. The Presidents from Grant to TR blur together.
Hayes has a good reputation, and he stole Florida like Bush did
Polk has an excellent reputation – maybe the clearest claim to be the exception to your surprisingly accurate rule.
Haven’t made a study of the 19th century Presidents but the USG wasn’t as large, complex, and powerful back then. So, there may have been some exceptions.
Both Roosevelt were in and out and around politics in NY and DC for some time before become POTUS. NY/NYC may also have been a better training ground for DC in their day than it is now. And other than getting the VP slot correct, FDR had an uncanny ability to hire the right people for the right jobs.
Democrats do better with Senators as President. Would expect that Obama would have benefited from a second or third term before moving up. Democrats also missed out on some fine Senate talent that didn’t make it out of NH.
you misunderstand my comment. no I’m not touting my ability to predict the future. I’m describing the range of opinion on that blog.
c99 is fine. Sometimes it’s nice to read a narrow range of conclusions and opinions, mostly well informed, without interference, interjections, thread hi-jacking, etc. by people mostly repeating DP orthodoxies, memes, and whatever one of the media “leftie” poobahs has decreed (usually off by 180 degrees). If I want to read the latter, I know where to find them and they’re usually better written than what is regurgitated from them in comment threads.
Those here that one faction has put on their enemy list often engage in disagreements among ourselves but without mudslinging and rancor. Sometimes we come to a mutual conclusion and sometimes we leave it at agree to disagree. Sometimes they’re constructive and sometimes they’re not but they hardly ever feel as if they’ve been a waste of time and mutual respect is preserved.
Yes, that’s the way it was here. So good to come here after being kicked out of Kos. Right from the beginning a wide range of opinion, but no name-calling no troll ratings just respectful discourse like Ladies and Gentlemen. Lots of enthusiasm but aimed at advancing the cause not creating a Stepford blog. Now I have a great feeling of DejaVu.
Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III will be the next attorney general. Pretty sure that’s more awful than whomever HRC would have appointed.
jesus. are you guys enjoying this poo-flinging?
Who are “you guys”, esquimaux?
I meant oui and nalbar, which made more sense when i posted that. the sequence of things can get mixed up around here.
was clear when you first posted.
Thanks for the clarification.
Oui is your typical European anti-american left winger come to enlighten the savages.
And I mean that in the nicest possible way Oui.
Some of my best friends in Europe are anti-american left wingers.
And there is are things in the European press that never get here, and after Iraq they are worth reading.
But the idea she is Republican light..
Even I would never have put it quite like that. Some folks are so anti American foreign policy that they’ve somehow managed to align themselves, to some extent, with the far right.
Oui spent the election cycle thinking he was going to be living through four years of Clinton’s foreign policy.
That’s how you get the dalliance between Wikileaks and the Trumpists. To echo what others have said… I hope European politicians learn to secure their emails/data. Transparency only hurts left-liberals. Let’s see what happens in France.
This was quite apparent back during the early days of the “War on Terra” during the George W. Bush administration as well. Made it very difficult for those who wanted simply to find adequately accurate information. At the time sites like Infowars and Antiwar.com, both of which were sewers, got quoted quite a bit. Upset folks were desperate for answers, and those sites had plenty of clickbait. General rule of thumb: if the site’s columnists include Pat Buchanan or have proprietors who feel the need to cite the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the best bet is to run in the opposite direction. Those sites are poison. As an open source proponent, I initially thought Wikileaks was a good idea. Its proprietor had been showing his true colors long before this year, and I’d stopped citing them ages ago. I’m merely an amateur history buff, but there are precedents for extreme leftists going so far off the rails that they end up in extreme right territory. I know of at least one member of the Red Army Faction (a sort of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist terrorist group in West Germany during the 1970s and 1980s) who became a card-carrying neo-Nazi later in life. Remember David Horrowitz, whose mission it was to expose (and ideally get purged) US professors he deemed “too leftist”? He was active in New Left movements in the US back in the 1960s and 1970s. Just two examples of something I’ve seen before. Right now we have “leftists” who quote alt-right sites (actually why not be honest and just call those sites white supremacist) when convenient for their purposes. At least some subset of them will be good foot soldiers for whatever fascist movement takes hold. I won’t name names simply because there is no way to predict who will truly go off the rails and who merely was simply seeking to make some sense of a world they found unpredictable. We’ll know eventually, I suppose.
As for France – I am certainly concerned for next year’s elections. I think there is good reason to believe that there may be no firewalls that can be built to contain right-wing nationalism at this time. I really want to be wrong about that. We live in really dark and scary times. I wish I could provide some semblance of comfort and assurance that what is poisoning our political lives can be stopped. In all honesty, I cannot do that. Wherever you are, be safe.
Voice — esquimaux is okay.
I know. I was just confused as to who he was addressing.
Oui — I have some problems with this diary. Generally, it’s poor form to call out another user by name in a diary. However, the persistent troll rating abusers deserved this because they rating speak with other than the troll rating button and for that should have lost their rating privilege long ago. But naming one person that didn’t fit within that narrow troll rating abusers was probably not a good idea — regardless of how irritating and etc. his/her comments can be.
Since last Wednesday I’ve been trying to let bygones be bygones with all of those that picked fights and were generally obnoxious towards those that did their best to remain reality based while others moved into and stayed in a group-think bubble. So far one person, who became as mean and nasty as the others, also seems to be trying to let bygones be bygones and that’s heartening because before this election heated up, I very much liked my interactions with her.
I’d like to think that others will slowly come around. As long as a game wasn’t rigged, or if the rigging on both sides was equivalent, both winners and losers should be gracious. Winners shouldn’t gloat because they can’t know if blind luck and/or opponent stumbles was the difference and their team isn’t really good enough to win without those factors. Losers shouldn’t lash out and look for scapegoats but own the loss (even if blind luck beat them) and use it as an opportunity to evaluate everything they did and got wrong, including the how and why of their errors and how not to repeat them in the future. Winners aren’t too inclined to own where they faltered and were weak. Thus, they often and all too quickly find themselves losing and are dumbfounded by it.
Some, and there were many like us outside the pond, foresaw no winner in this election. Any outcome was a loss for the principles and values we try to live by and express. Two doors; the tiger or the lion. Others (in both parties) somehow saw enough difference between the choices that they went with that door, but neither can claim that those with them were much more or much less than those that weren’t with them. Both spent most of their time tearing down the opposition because there wasn’t much to recommend either of the liars, cheaters, and 1% beholden. Collectively, Americans remain stuck right where they were in 2000. As if a $3+ trillion war for no purpose, other military actions for no purpose, a global financial meltdown, income/wealth inequality continuing to grow ever wider and possibly at a faster pace, more government spying on everyone, etc. had never happened in the subsequent sixteen years.
If we are learning at all, it’s much too slowly because we’re still sinking.
I won’t deny it.
I am pissed, depressed and ill-tempered.
I worked pretty hard when I got back and need sleep.
My apologies all.
I know. And I tried to keep that in mind in the past week as I responded to some of your comments, but under the circumstances, may have erred in being harsher than was appropriate. I apologize for any comments that weren’t kind enough.
Nah – we argue all the time – you have never crossed the line with me. If I respond it is in your case a sign of respect – or it is meant to be. That goes for most here.
I come here because there are smart people in the comments and Booman really tolerates a lot.
Some type this “Both the left and the right adopted Fox News critiques of Clinton” and I really don’t apologize for responding in kind to that nonsense.
But for the rest – I get combative at times. I apologize if it gets over the top.
We are talking politics though…
Good. In real life I’ve never experienced any hard feelings between those that engage in arguments/debates as long as every played fair. A conservative MMS minister really enjoyed one-on-one debates with me.
I don’t follow your comments about winners and losers. Did either of us win on November 8?
I would be happy to let past unpleasantness be forgotten. That requires that we both own our mistakes and acknowledge shared responsibility for the unpleasantness. (That can be done privately, silently; no rending of garments or confessional diaries are necessary.) I’m not going to recapitulate anything but simply state that I wrote stuff to you that I regret and for which I apologize.
I realize that I’m writing a few days after your comments above; I just don’t look online much nowadays.
excellent “4”
No winners to the left of Mitch McConnell. We’re all losers.
But if one cheats to win is that a win worth having? Such “wins” do seem to me to be short-lived and the crash can be brutal. Nixon, GHWB (arguable that it was more than sleazy actions, but the facts aren’t yet fully known), and GWB. One reliable guide to where the majority opinion ends up is to look at that portion of the general public that isn’t strictly partisan. They don’t like cheaters. It was tricky to read in this election because Trump has been a long-time cheater. I erred in concluding that on this measure it was a draw. Not exactly wrong. But, his cheating was in the private sector and he didn’t have to cheat to win the nomination and the RNC didn’t throw its weight behind him for the nomination (except arguably when the race was down to Trump and Cruz). Both candidates went low in the general election, but again, Trump’s stuff was in his personal and business life and Clinton’s was in public office.
Debates that don’t hit below the belt, use real facts instead of emotions, and with a full sense of fair play are fine regardless of how heated they become and how wide the differences in conclusions/opinions are.
Apology accepted.
Good.
The stress of the campaign and of election day made me physically ill. I doubt I’m the only person to have had that response.
Onward, then.
this is the worst waste of time POS I’ve ever seen on this site.
Everyone STFU and stop acting like children…
STFU?? Silence hasn’t stopped the trolling behavior of a few.
I’ve pointed to the guidelines of BT a number of times. With the harassment of Arthur Gilroy pre-election I’ve posted a reply and added a diary on the topic.
After the election of Nov. 8th, nothing has changed the behavior of marduk, Beahmont [notice the 4’s for nalbar] and maythirteenth [offers zill to the pond as commenter]. It’s a caustic brew.
I witness this behavior that continued post-election.
That was a quick response nalbar … matter of seconds. You’ve got the links and the facts … dishing out but can’t stand the heat?
Thx for the revision nalbar … much better from “0” super troll to “2” warning. Same for Beahmont [multiple times] in this diary.
Thx Martin … for your wise words now and then … timely … often! Appreciated. 😉
A few thoughts:
Call-out diaries? Not cool.
Commenters dissing others a SJWs (Social Justice Warriors for those of us who normally avoid Tumblr-speak)? Not cool.
Like it or not, the Democratic Party is inevitably big tent. However we characterize a “left” or “progressive” tendency more internationally, it too is a big tent. We’re going to have differences in tactics even if we might overlap significantly on matters of ideology and core values. Politics is messy as is life.
We make choices. Those choices have consequences. We can choose to lift each other up, or at least stand out of each other’s way if the former is not possible. What we will never have are perfect parties or candidates, and even then one person’s perfection would likely be a train wreck to others. I have no solution for that. This election seems to have stressed and triggered so many – not just here but just in general. That seems to have brought out the worst in us (and I’ll take some responsibility for the part I played, for at least allowing myself to be sucked in). There are no innocent bystanders. So it goes.
If this blog is going to survive, it will not do so by alienating its members – especially ones who really do and really did intend to contribute something constructive. I won’t call out anyone by name, especially since so many are at loggerheads with one another, but I really wish more of us could take the time we need to mourn, however we need to mourn, and figure out some ways to move forward. We have a rough future ahead of us – I am not sure if there is a firewall against a rising tide of right-wing nationalism. I started the year still hopeful that perhaps a firewall were possible. I’ve lost even that faint optimism. Instead, we need to get it together and figure out how to best resist. We won’t do that by tearing each other to shreds.
I’d love to see constructive diaries that could offer some alternatives to neoliberal capitalism. I’d love to see some thoughts about what the DNC will need to do to move forward. I wonder what folks think about this Pantsuit Nation phenomenon that has swept social media in my country – does it offer some way forward to rebuilding our local and state party structures that have often gone dormant? How do we become a party/movement of what I suspect most of us aspire – to be not only advocates of social justice but also economic justice? My own ambivalent relationship with the DP has been rooted in that last question. Can we even disagree without screaming at each other? Or have we become so fragmented that we are doomed to become a nation and world of echo chambers?
The good old days at the Frog Pond were pretty tumultuous as I recall. There was some bad blood between various folks before all was said and done. That was about a decade and a username change ago. But it was nothing like I have seen this year. I am worried, and what I am seeing now and have seen the several months gives me less and less reason to hope.
I’ve said my piece. Maybe aside from the cafes, I’ll take a break as well. As I am all too painfully aware, life is just too short. I’d like to spend whatever time I have left on this planet doing something that might make a difference. Screaming back and forth over the Internet Tubes doesn’t seem to do it for me.
good suggestions, thanks,also i didn’t know what SJW was,
Yeah, SJW is a term that I think actually meant something positive when it was first coined, but has been largely turned into a pejorative, primarily by what we now call the alt-right, to refer to anyone who has the nerve to think that we should treat people equitably regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, and so on. I’ve been accused of being an SJW elsewhere (not here). Then again, 30 years ago when marching with anti-Apartheid activists, I was called an n-lover, among other things that I shall not repeat. Oh the nerve to think and act on the notion that individual and structural racism are morally wrong and should be resisted. Sorry for the rant. I am just seeing language flung about here increasingly over the last few weeks and months that I never thought I would see, and it has put me in a bit of foul mood.
good luck with the institutional racism. ppl have unlearned how to think about institutions, alas
Things have taken a turn for the worse in three decades. Until recently, the norm against individual racism had been largely established. On a more structural level? Not so much. We have a lot to unlearn, and we’ll now have to unlearn under arguably the worst circumstances our country has faced in, well my lifetime (and that’s getting to be a darned long time). I will say this: the most successful political actions I experienced either as a student or more recently as an aging adult trying to keep a neoconfederate from packing a local school board with his hand-picked lackeys occurred when enough folks were willing to coalition together – set aside whatever differences they may have – and just get to working on the task at hand. Concepts like solidarity used to mean something. On some level, there are times when we seem to awaken from our collective slumber just long enough to vaguely remember. We need to relearn how to get past our own little echo chambers and actually see what we might have in common and what we might accomplish together. This blog is just a microcosm of what is happening all over the country among what we might broadly define as a “left”. Under the circumstances, I probably have very little reason for optimism at least in the short term. Maybe the folks who are my kids’ ages will be so turned off by the way the so-called adults did things (I don’t have data, but my personal observations suggest that may be the case) that they’ll do better, and begin the arduous process of cleaning up the mess we made. At this point, they’re the only ones who really matter to me. They’re the only ones who still give me hope. As for the rest of the left blogosphere? What’s the point? I can look for common ground. Even suggest it exists, but who really cares? From the looks of things, the evidence is not especially promising. Shouting at each other is easier. We’ve been trained well by decades of “split screams” on cable news channels, and we’ll scream, and invent divisions if none existed before. But on the bright side, boran2 will have a new iteration of his latest painting that I am looking forward to, and I think I can conjure up some videos next Wednesday. So there’s that. I’ll see what’s going on locally over the next few weeks and months. That might hold a little promise too. The rest? Apparently the answer is “whatever.”
Your school board work – very impressive, congratulations. When Sanders wasn’t the dem candidate i turned to those areas where I feel I can contribute most, so I’m already phased in, as it were. the problems are tremendous, at heart, imo, decades of teaching ppl that they are primarily consumers of everything, little atoms making choices for what “meets our needs” – as if that’s what makes a human! and which all the gadgets feed and feed more. most ppl don’t know how to make coalitions. if you know that and can show others, that’s very valuable.
Small coalitions I can figure out. Got to work pretty intimately in forming one back in the mid 1980s and although I was more of a bit player in this one (turns out my stature thanks to something as simple as a job title makes me valuable for making relevant and evidence based public statements that could be published and circulated), that knowledge leads me to know a good coalition when I see it. Political parties are a different and much more difficult category of coalitions. In a small coalition, you know the players are going to come in with varying agendas and so on, but there is some direct contact and an ability to develop trust, and allows for compromise when necessary. That is much harder to do on a national level. Given the level of discourse I have seen this year, I am rapidly losing optimism at the national level. Without the ability to trust and compromise sufficiently to attain any of a number of reachable goals (whatever those end up potentially being) to resist in a Trump dominated America, there is no way to achieve even small victories. Maybe some isolated symbolic protests can be managed. Assuming what we are witnessing continues, I seriously doubt that the Democratic Party as a workable coalition survives, and with it, those blogs and other social media outlets used to mobilize that coalition go under as well. Was nice while it lasted. We are in for a long lonely winter in our little echo chamber-addled America. By the way, this is me taking the most optimistic approach I can based upon what I have seen on our social media (including the blogs), traditional media, and personal communication. As I said, it was nice while it lasted. Good luck and be safe.
perhaps I’m less disheartened by the T victory for a few reasons – as I mention occasionally, I travel a lot for work. seeing what’s going on elsewhere I conclude it’s not about us losing ground here, it’s about global interests vs human interests, and it’s just hitting home here in a way it has abroad already. all the strategies of getting ppl to see themselves as little consumers trying to “meet my needs” is about making money off humans in every way possible. you should see what’s going on in other parts of the world! the other side of it is we’ve been relatively isolated, it’s just coming home right now. the young ppl are doing some great things, especially re: sustainability and climate change. it’s like someone from the older generation once told me: it turned out things were more difficult to solve than we’d thought.
Admittedly, any work related travel I do is within the EU, so my experiences are a bit limited. A couple years ago I was in a former Soviet Bloc nation and was quite astounded at the number of Starbucks and McDonald’s outlets, the huge shopping mall, and a tourist district that had a Hard Rock Cafe, casinos, and enough of the trappings of Las Vegas that all it needed was the palm trees. I also saw plenty of homeless people, and plenty of others who looked like they were struggling. Let’s say I tend to use my minimal down time to go off the tourist paths and see as much of what is really going on as possible. If this election holds any lesson for us, it is that the US is really not that exceptional and is at the mercy of the same forces that are ripping apart the rest of our aching planet. Where I think we share something in common is a global outlook (my own admitted limitations notwithstanding) and a value system that privileges human dignity over consumerism – a value system that I hope those of us who are older who might still be afforded some respect by our youth (if we have any capital left there, given how we’ve all behaved) can help cultivate and nurture more humane values that our youth can then take and run with. Maybe we differed in tactics about this particular election. I worry that our youth will run into more headwinds attempting to change our aching planet for the better as fascist and quasi-fascist regimes become the norm than they would have otherwise. In the meantime, I hold on to a brief period this century when I thought that perhaps, just perhaps what we might think of as a “left” or “progressive” coalition could flourish (warts and all) here in the US, and internationally as well. That’s gone now. For how long, I know not. I’ll wait to see what the kids can cook up. I’ll gladly help them if they’ll let me, and I’ll promise to stay out of the way if my input is not wanted. In the meantime, I have a family to protect. They’re all that’s left to me, especially in an era when we are well and truly on our own. Take care and do what you can. I’ll do the same.
Ahem, From the BT FAQ page:
From the Trolls Link on the community guidelines page:
All of my Troll Ratings have been consistent with-in that definition. I usually even require a stricter definition of requiring at least two of the three indicators of a troll.
That you think that calling everyone who disagrees with you a Hillbot, a Red Baiter,’No you’re the real racist for calling out my Racism’ comments, or some other insult doesn’t fit those guidelines while at the same time are also an attempt at an “effort to silence fellow bloggers writing at BT” says way more about you than it does about me.
That you think that in a conversation that has noting to do with Hillary or Trump, it’s perfectly okay to post in a thread interrupter to talk about how Hillary is ‘Worse than Trump’ doesn’t fit those guidelines, says way more about you than it does about me.
That you think that that no one around here remembers your attempt to blame ISIS propaganda videos on the CIA trying to restart the war effort, or the hoops you jumped through to try and ‘prove’ that it was the Ukrainian Government that shot down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 and not the Russian controlled Ukrainian Rebels even though all evidence pointed to the opposite direction is laughable.
That you don’t seem to get why Nalbar calls you a Republican Hack is tragic.
You don’t know shit about the MH-17 affair.
○ Dutch reject EU-Ukraine treaty in referendum and NATO military alliance – April 2016
193 Dutch lives lost in tragedy above Ukraine in July 2014.
My such a controlled and reasonable response… oh wait, no it’s not. It’s the exact same behavior you claimed to hate, only because it’s performed by you, it’s okay to make ad hominem attacks and troll rate.
What was it you were talking about up thread about mirrors and in your post about stifling discussion on BT? It’s just an act to try and score more purity points.
to nalbar for your latest post in fp story:
You just dont quit he asshole.
NOT HEEDING BOOMAN’S EXPLICIET WARNING!
If I had a bit of advice that might be helpful it is this:
For whatever reason some interpersonal dynamics are simply toxic for each person involved. It’s no one’s fault really. Sometimes, it’s just a bad mix. Regrettably community blogs don’t have a blocking or killfile feature, but the next best thing is to simply disengage if you find that you are in a situation that is toxic for you. However you go through your process of relating to others might be different from mine. All I can say is that for me, if a series of conversation is so taxing for me that I feel physically exhausted and/or I find myself snapping at people I love who are merely asking simple questions such as where the batteries are for the Wii controller, I am probably in a toxic internet situation. There are several folks in the blogging world whom I consider dead to me. I will likely avoid saying so explicitly if I can avoid it (although if I have to , I will very, very explicitly), but I’ve sorted out that for me, personally, there is no way for those of us involved to communicate in a way that doesn’t devolve into a series of shouting matches or worse. It does me no good, and I would imagine anyone else either. It’s okay to let go and say, “this doesn’t work for me.” So to any extent possible, I disengage. It beats some of the screaming matches and troll rating wars that I am sure must be frustrating to Booman and are frustrating enough to a number of others who have started heading for the exits. Just my two cents. As always, your mileage may vary.
Boy is this ever germane.
Toxic relationships online, just like those in real life, don’t happen unless both/all parties involved contribute to the unpleasantness. And we don’t recover from these toxic relationships unless/until all parties involved take ownership.
Oui–
I know that you think you’re providing some sort of analysis of American foreign policy, but from my perspective, your writing always seems to include about a zillion vague links, is not well tied together, and tends to veer off into conspiratorial thinking. Instead of providing about a zillion links per diary, try providing just a few with some commentary to help the reader understand why s/he ought to look at them. I don’t know how you spend your days, obviously, but I’ve got a demanding job and a demanding family situation; there’s just no way that I’m going to spend a hour or two trying to parse every one of your posts.
Thanks.
First, I have to get this out of the way:
I don’t know nalbar, although in the runup to the election, I commonly found myself sympathetic to what he had to write.
OK then.
What I see nalbar writing in this thread pretty clearly reflects someone in a great deal of anguish. I speculate that he hears the ravings of Trump and Bannon and the rest of the incoming mob at a personal level: That is, I’m speculating that nalbar is from one of the groups of people whom Trump has targeted.
It seems abundantly clear that Trump and his minions are not backing off from their demonization tactics. Call this racism or call it whatever term you like. We’re all going to have to deal with it…some of us much more directly and intimately than others.
It’s a time for empathy, not a time for circular firing squads.
None of that! Nalbar and Beahmont still trolling by downrating comments from bloggers at the pond. (11/22/2016)
I won’t remain silent with assholes.
Once again nalbar, get a life! Your continued trolling behavior is quite pathetic here at what used to be a friendly place at BooMan’s pond.
Is it supposed to scare me? What a clown …
Trolling behavior is often related to a narcist or worse a psycho (as in horror).
I know him … and Beahmont and marduk. The ratings are an open book here at the pond.
I’ve never looked at a rating. I’ve never given a rating. They’re of no interest to me. Evidently you have a radically different perspective about this issue!