Lemme see:
The latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds 48% of Americans said a family member shared with them a false story that they believed to be true; 32% said they avoided talking politics with family because they supported a different candidate; 31% said they got into a heated argument with family or friends for supporting a different candidate; 22% reported being harassed for their political beliefs; and 17% said they blocked or unfriended someone on Facebook or another social-media platform because of the presidential election.
Maybe it’s because I come from a family of academics and the children of academics, but I am unaware of even one family member, including uncles, aunts, cousins, nephews and nieces, who supported Trump, so there were no annoying fake news stories or arguments or avoidance of political conversations. No one harassed anyone, and no one was blocked on social media. I didn’t have to do this with any friends, either, although things got tense in the primaries. They only thing I did was block a few people on Facebook who struck me as idiots and to stop following a few people on Twitter who were annoying me. None of these people were my friends, though.
I try not to be too insulated, but the truth is that politics is central enough to my being that I don’t make friends with Republicans. With where I grew up, even my old high school friends and acquaintances are about 99% liberal, especially when given a choice of Trump.
To tell you the truth, I am happier this way. I don’t need a crazy uncle to keep me grounded.
But it does make it more of a challenge to keep my finger on the pulse of Red America, especially because I absolutely refuse to watch Fox News or listen to hate radio.
How has your experience been?
Reading the Right-wing sites, especially the comments, for the past year suggests that the GOP is as screwed as the rest of the country, perhaps even worse.
Sadly, for me, my siblings and I had a total break with my elderly father a few years ago. He was very bright, always very conservative (hated FDR), but it was entirely possible to get along until Fox took over his life. My father and little half-sister ganged up on my excellent brother a couple of years ago and called him (and me and my older sister and our children) total hopeless idiots for being Democrats and, even worse, supporting Obama. He died at age 98 a month ago and we hadn’t spoken in years.
As for the couple of Trump supporters who I know and also have as friends on Facebook, I told them all very explicitly just don’t push his crap at me, and they haven’t.
I’ve had no problems. The nature of my work, and the nature of my play makes sure I’m surrounded by right wingers, and because I have semi leadership positions in both, I’m a semi target. But it’s very easy for me to switch to a businesslike attitude, particularly at play.
Close family is mostly gone, and those left are liberals.
.
How about a national public register of the 1%? That would be something.
Close family is all liberal. Family in Texas is from another planet. I listen to the Texas people, but it isn’t always easy.
I come from a very conservative family, but they’re Mormons in California, so it’s a little bit different. One: they know their votes don’t really count anyway. Two: I think my dad warmed up to Trump, but my mother and sister can’t stand him, so dad’s mostly kept his mouth shut.
Otherwise, I did get unfriended by a couple of former students. I keep politics out of the classroom, but occasionally I’ll comment on politics on Facebook (yeah, know… stupid) and I think former students are surprised to find out that I can be kind of abrasive, especially about Trump. But that’s ok. Haters gonna hate.
A few in my family are conservative Christians, and very homophobic/Fox-poisoned. I’ve long since unfollowed on social media, and they know better than to even tease me about anything, let alone have earnest conversations. My professional circle is also very liberal–the nastiest fights were between Bernie & HRC supporters–so everyone was surprised and frightened when the election went down. To everyone’s credit (that I follow anyway), there’s been little infighting/blame-casting since. People are mostly like “ok, we have shit to do now, so let’s do it.”
About sums up my experience. Oddly enough the political blogs could learn a lesson or two.
It’s not only happening in families.
http://observer.com/2016/12/mike-stone-michigan-democratic-party-assault-battery-against-sanders-sup
porter/
As Talleyrand said of the Bourbon monarchy on their restoration after the fall of Napoleon:
“They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.”
Ah, Jared Kushner’s website. Outside of DU and a couple other message boards that are now using this as a source, is there any reporting of this story elsewhere? I would have imagined in early December this would have made some local or state-wide news. So as of now given the lack of confirmation of this story from other sources, I am skeptical.
You know, I didn’t even notice it was Jared Kushner’s website. Yes, you are right! This is exactly the sort of story they are continually running. In the past, I remember seeing tales such as how Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren were about to fight each other to the death for the leadership of progressives.
I am usually quite careful about sources, but in this case, because you and I had been talking about this topic, I forgot the old saying: “look before you link.”
Most of the stories are utter bullshit. How about this one — “Keith Ellison Abandons Sanders Supporters to Back Wealthy Donor.” The wealthy donor in question is George Soros, the Darth Vader of the Tea Party set. All the stories exaggerate potential or actual tensions in the Democratic Party.
These Observer stories, BTW, are always under the byline of one Michael Sainato, who claims to be a Sanders supporter. He does fit the profile of a certain type of Sanders supporter.
http://observer.com/author/michael-sainato/
Judging by his work for other publications, it may be that he’s just scamming the Observer by writing what they want to hear, but the trouble is that all kinds of people read these articles, including some of the more gullible Sanders people. The Observer, due to its history, probably still has a fair number of liberal readers. It’s a strange situation.
Possibly this Sainato is just stupid. Maybe he just needs the money. Maybe he’s just a tad unethical, maybe more than a tad.
I’ve been curious to know more about the guy. This is not enough, but it’s a start:
https://muckrack.com/michael-sainato/bio
I am personal friends with a couple freelance journalists. It may simply come down to “here’s a paying gig and that ramen diet gets a bit old after a while.” But yeah, there’s something sketchy about Kushner’s “news” site, and unless there is some sourcing outside of that site, I’m not buying. If something really hairy happened at a state or county DP headquarters, I am reasonably sure that every major news station would be on it faster than greased lightning, and we’d see it plastered all over memeorandum and any other news aggregator we could think of. Now, that news site run by an in-law of Comrade Donny continues to run stories exaggerating the differences and conflicts among various factions of the Democratic coalition is itself a possibly interesting topic. So, maybe for different reasons I find the link you shared educational.
Really not different reasons. It is an interesting topic. If you find out anything, let us know. Again, thanks for the red flag.
The impression I get is that the Observer has become this guy’s main gig as of late. He has had editorials appear in Truthout and HuffPo, and once got something in the Guardian that was presumably an analysis of the context surrounding Dylan Roof’s mass killing. Mostly he seems to write very pro-Bernie Sanders opinion pieces, and very anti-Clinton pieces, which I suspect is the Observer’s interest in him currently. Not sure he’s much for doing straight news reporting. Nor am I sure there’s much to distinguish him as a writer at this point. He’s extremely early-career.
But he’s pro-Bernie in a stupid way.
I’ve found this, among other sites to be quite helpful in providing advice for how to skeptically read news. Unless or until I can see this coming up from multiple sources representing a variety of news media, my skepticism shall continue, especially since the current sole source is a news site run by Ivanka’s husband.
Older brother snickers at stupid liberals; younger brother is as left as I am; sister used to be reasonable but is living with a Tea-Party-type defense contractor and has gone over to the dark side. We four rarely get together and I studiously avoid talking politics when we do.
Most of my Facebook friends are liberal and currently appalled; a couple of people with whom I have real-life connections are wingnuts and I unfollowed rather than outright unfriending.
I have a select few real life friends with whom I can discuss politics; otherwise I avoid the topic to keep the peace.
My family is general centrist to liberal. I used to be more of the left outlier, but have moderated a bit, I suppose. Family Thanksgiving was rather peaceful, and I expect the same for the Christmas visit. I do have a somewhat more eclectic set of friends outside of professional circles, and yes, I have been blocked/unfriended during the election season, typically by those who had more superficial ties to me anyway. I don’t exactly lose any sleep over that. The handful of occasions where I tried to ask the Trump voters I do know about why they voted as they did, they were defensive (and I usually get some response along the lines of “don’t you judge me” much like someone with a gambling or addiction problem might act) or would just give some non-answer answer. So it goes.
My family is far left Jewish. My grandmother and grandfather were died in the wool communists who met when they were both in a free love society in the “30s. Most of my extended family is left of center. One great aunt who acquired wealth through matrimony is a Trump supporter. I avoided discussing politics with her.
I had conflict with friends during the primaries. Wanted to reform (and sometimes strangle) the Bernie-or-busters. Have one distant friend who was a Trump man. Told him to back off once or twice, and most of all when the election came in and he was doing his victory dance. But didn’t actually pull the trigger because he did back off each time.
At least one Bernie-bro defriended me. Another guy who probably supports Trump did so too, though I’m not entirely sure why. Probably because he didn’t like reading my views.
I used to live in a red state (Arizona), where I dealt with right-wingers all the time. Now I live in a blue state (Washington) where I’m pretty much insulated from those points of view. I do my best to not conflate people’s hearts with their politics. That’s of course impossible when the person in question is someone like McConnell or Ryan, the manipulators who know exactly what they’re doing and simply don’t give a shit who gets hurt. People like that have no soul. Fortunately, I don’t know anyone like that personally.
Appreciate your tolerance but I am having trouble seeing how Republicans are not either evil, as you have noted, or stupid, specifically having a low threshold for surrendering to manipulation that magically aligns with their own personal prejudices. Nothing new there, to be sure, but our performance as a society seems at or below the lower threshold of sustainable, secular, egalitarian and democratic. I hold them responsible for pulling down our averages in this respect; a potentially fatal failing.
Sometimes lately I’ve caught myself suggesting to Trump alarmists that the Age of Enlightenment, having arrived with the printing press, will depart in the same company, though I suppose there have always been pamphlets and yellow journalism.
Could be read several ways, so unclear what you’re meaning by it.
Myself among others whom are alarmed and alarming.
But only sorta.
Dishonest Reality-Deniers/rightwingnuts love to disparage members of the Reality-Based Community like me as climate “alarmists”. The connotation being “spreading alarm about nothing-to-be-alarmed-about” (which is wrong, of course; the only sane response is: be alarmed — be very alarmed).
Which seemed maybe somewhat different from how you were using “alarmist”, so I found it confusing.
Your response seemed to be clearing that up (“alarmist” = share being alarmed by Trump?), right up until you added ” . . . and alarming”, which has me confused all over again: You are “alarming”? Like an intrusion by an armed burglar? Or a stopsign-running vehicle on collision course with you in an intersection? I would not have guessed that about you, based on what I’ve read here!
(To me, “alarmist” connotes “spreading alarm that’s unwarranted — or to a degree beyond what’s warranted — by the circumstances; “alarming” connotes “causing alarm in someone”. Or wait, better, here I’ve got it: It’s not “alarmist” to be “alarmed” by something/someone that really is “alarming” — i.e., “alarm” is the rational response to him/her/it.)
P.S. Again, “who are”, not “whom are”. (Note verb [“are”] directly following, and taking/carrying the action of, who/whom; therefore its function is subject pronoun, not object pronoun, so “who” is correct. Seriously, you can trust me on this. And on this: even if you can’t internalize the rule well enough to consistently apply it correctly, you’re way better off just vanishing “whom” from your vocabulary, rather than go on using it where “who” is correct.)
I meant alarmist as in “one who alarms”. Nothing fancy. No point running around being alarmist if it isn’t working. Though on reflection it may have been wishful thinking.
Ah, yes the verb. Thanks for your consistent help on this who/whom subject/object thing. I am unlikely to give it up as I rarely let a word go voluntarily. I will keep trying; I think I am about to get it. Ironically even if I internalise the rule correctly I will never have the inestimable joy of correcting others.
I sometimes use the metaphor of Cassandra – trying to warn others of legitimate trouble and finding it difficult to get others to believe.
There’s on old line from an old song “The Power of Lard” that I sometimes invoke: “when people are asleep we must all become alarm clocks.”
Ironic that what the Nazis, white supremacists and evangelicals call ‘awakening’ seems quite the opposite.
Don’t get me wrong; I consider anyone who voted for Trump either malicious or foolish. I consider their worldview ludicrous. I just don’t consider those who haven’t had the benefit of education or mentoring evil or unworthy of respect. There but for the grace of God and all that. So much of what we know was absorbed before we were old enough to even know we were taking it in. If one is exposed to racist or narrow views, that can be overcome with exposure to light and love, knowledge and insight. But the world doesn’t open those doors for everyone. For some, it’s all they can do to survive day to day, managing to eek out a bit of satisfaction here and there — perhaps from a can of beer or a football game. Life ain’t easy and, heck, no one gets out alive. We’re all up against it.
As stated previously, I reserve my empathy for those who aren’t outright racist or evil. If one wants Obamacare repealed understanding full well that children will die as a result and others will lose parents and they just don’t care, then that person has lost any right to a modicum of respect. Same for those who would hurt others based on skin color or ethnicity. If I could line such people up against a wall, I might just do it. I’d certainly want them nowhere near the levers of power.
I really admire your tolerance and share your egalitarianism on the ‘grace of God’ argument. I have observed since George Wallace a dark undercurrent of American politics that could only survive in the shadows if fed by some ugliness of spirit; but I expect to deal with them. It’s this I can’t fathom:
Good question. In spite of a sympathetic journalistic treatment these simple people sound like their entitlement and prejudice got the better of their common sense.
Honestly:
If we aren’t voting our genuine self-interest we are breaking democracy.
Well if you find yourself lacking a proper reference for what conservatives are thinking, I’ve got you covered, Martin. I can’t come up with a perfect count off the top of my head, but both my parents are conservative Republicans. They both have three siblings. All conservative Republicans who are married to conservative Republicans. I have about two dozen first cousins. All conservative to very conservative, with two exceptions. I do have one liberal cousin on each side of the family. And if I go out one more level of cousin on both sides, I can count one liberal among about 25 conservative Republicans, all with conservative Republican spouses. Many of these are also fundamentalist Christians, which only adds to the torment. So out of about 60-70 immediate family members, I have three like-minded people. One lives in Florida, one in Michigan and one in California.
Needless to say, I don’t jump in much to political discussions at family affairs.
I come from a super conservative, very fundamental religious family. Everyone, including 8 nieces/nephews, siblings & spouses, and parents (may they RIP) are all super conservative and very religious.
The only exceptions are one niece and one nephew’s ex-wife.
I am not on Facebook mainly to avoid having anything to do w/ what family members are posting. I hear snippets from my neice and nephew’s ex, and that’s enough for me.
I moved out of the country for almost 9 years (many years ago) to get away from my family, in part (but also because I love to travel). I now live on the left coast, and most of them live on the east coast.
When we’re together we studiously avoid talking politics. It’s simply not worth it. I also avoid talking about religion as much as possible, although ironically one sibling asked me for genuine input on where they should go to church (I do occassionally attend church with them as a courtesy). That was an interesting discussion and not painful.
I’m not sure if either of my siblings voted for Trump. Earlier in the summer, they both expressed disgust with him and talked about voting third party. My niece isn’t sure whether they capitulated or not. But they weren’t impressed with Trump. However, they LOVE Ted Cruz, who I think is actually worse. So…
I have some friends who vote Republican, but since I’m in CA, they are socially liberal but just don’t want to pay ANY taxes ever under any circumstances. Annoying but at least they’re not completely nuts.
But the preponderance of my friends are lefy-ish or at least reasonably center-ish. And mostly all are socially liberal. That includes friends around the planet. Many of my overseas friends have been writing to commisserate with me recently, which is helpful.
There are a lot of Republicans in my family and friends. However, 95 percent of them said they wouldn’t vote for Trump under any conditions. They either lied to me; or, someone else is responsible for this amoral, racist, bigoted con man who was just elected President. Oh, what fools these mortals be!
LOL. Describes my circle to a T. Sadly, though, most of the friends voted for Trump. Am surrounded by tribal Republicans who are too young to remember that this red state was truly a Democratic one until a decade and a half ago when the switch from the blue to the red was completed and this state once again became a one party state. Just the wrong party, though.
Through family and work I’m exposed to many Trump voters. While I never thought it was likely that Trump was going to win, I certainly thought it possible after talking to a lot of these people.
Surprisingly, most Trump voters that I know don’t really follow politics very closely. I would sort of put them into two general categories: those that vote for whoever has the (R) next to their name because that’s what they have always done, and then a smaller segment of people who I would say are struggling to stay in the middle class. Before Trump, I wouldn’t call any of these people racists. They largely stopped talking about Trump towards the end of the election. A few of them expect a business windfall from a Trump administration. Most of the rest have no idea what’s in store for them.
Sadly, my general feeling is that once Trump starts blowing things up, it is going to take a lot for him to lose support in the low information demographic. Maybe lose a war- that’s traditionally the “best” way to get rid of autocrats. Or perhaps gutting Social Security or being caught on tape taking bribes from a foreign power. Short of that, I’m not optimistic.
This:
Romney: 60,933,504
Trump: 62,979,636
Between 2004 and 2014 the US population increased by over 20 million and the GOP added less than a million additional votes for president. And while flat between 2012 and 2016, the increase for Democrats since 2004 has been almost seven million. Good enough in 2012 because it was better distributed but too concentrated in 2016 and the DP doesn’t seem to appreciate why that’s not a good thing.
I wonder what the migration patterns are for MI, WI and PA over the last decade. How many people moved to/from and to where did they move?
This looks intended as A) evidence presented in support of B) a conclusion (i.e., “Between 2004 and 2014 the US population increased by over 20 million and the GOP added less than a million additional votes for president”); but the path from A to B isn’t exactly clear.
” … once Trump starts blowing things up, it is going to take a lot for him to lose support in the low information demographic.”
That’s something I’ve been thinking as well. Also because Trump will always put the blame for the resulting problems somewhere else, and most of these people will believe him.
I read recently that Trump plans to continue providing “rallies” for his fans. This, like so much else that he “promised” (nudge nudge wink wink), may not come to pass over time.
But I suspect that Trump wants to continue holding rallies for several reasons, two of which I speculate are (in order of importance to Trump): a) the screaming adulation is just the thing, and b) to keep the rubes happy, whilst totally ripping them off.
Trump clearly recognizes that his uneducated fans (his words) just need a bunch of screaming rallies, where they get to rant about horrible LIEbruls, is all they really want and need to stay satisfied.
I won’t be surprised if he keeps it up, at least for a while.
I seriously doubt that many Trump voters will awaken to how badly they’ve been conned by Trump. They’ll just reflexively blame it on Democrats, et voila! Problem solved.
Those were the days!
Setting aside the full complement of Nixonian and post-Nixonian dirty tricks, the overt breaking of democracy and democratic norms the Republicans are currently engaged in, and which we have every reason to believe will only intensify, particularly as Trump’s administration becomes progressively less popular…
I’m strangely optimistic that “opinion” will turn decisively against Trumpism faster than it turned against Bushism. It took 5-6 years for Bush to totally crater. I suspect it will take about 2 years for the same to happen to Trump. Perhaps shorter depending on circumstances. I say this because the aspects of Bushism that led to its downfall are only more pronounced now. GOP leadership is even more contemptuous of facts, of the average American, of competence and knowledge. They have learned absolutely nothing except how to cling to power, how to worship power even. The real world effects will be horrific in many cases, but they will also, inevitably, be felt by the country as a whole. You can’t fool everyone all the time.
This is hard for political junkies to handicap because they are up to date on every outrage. But as we saw with Bush there comes a time when an administration simply has no more credibility for the country as a whole, and everyone in the media and in politics knows it. Obviously the Tariq Azizing will continue till the end of time, and this administration is even more militantly installed in the “we create our own reality” bubble of power. And the press will absolutely cater to that for some time. They will be the last to know.
But, from my perch of absolute irrelevancy, I would suggest Democrats keep this likely inevitability firmly in mind, and act as if that is the destined end point of Trumpism-disgrace and humiliation for its leaders. Obviously irreversible damage will be done in the meantime. People will be abandoned and die. Reactionary forces will be strengthened across government, and in some cases that will take decades to unwind. But there will come a time when the indisputable fact of the destructive incompetence and fraudulent idiocy of Trumpism will begin to penetrate the most granite skulled partisans. Most won’t “convert,” but you’ll see them beginning to shut the hell up.
I would suggest Democrats learn both from the implosion of Bushism and the failures of the Obama administration and Democrats generally to fully exploit on that implosion. Get ready now. Advocate now for the truth, for reason, for equality. Show leadership now. It won’t pay off immediately. A wilderness period is beginning. Much will be lost. But it will end. What will the program be when that happens?
nicely to form a coherent whole picture, both parts of which look largely correct to me:
The hardcore Trump supporters (especially the deplorable bigot contingent) will stick with Trump through thick and thin, to the bitter end, impervious to Reality or completely willing and able to deflect all blame for undeniable disasters that occur onto Dems, “the left”, The (Hated) Other, “the establishment”, “the elites”, the “liberal”[HAHAHAHA] media, . . . basically, anyone/everyone who isn’t themselves. (Seems highly predictable some will find a way to blame Obama, or even Hillary!)
Seems very likely to me as well that the rest of Trump’s support — the low-info, gullible, wishy-washy “centrist/moderate/independent/3rd way” types who aren’t, however, just batshit insane or evil, will be harshly awakened (your two years seems a reasonable timeframe guesstimate to me) to what they have wrought. (I still expect a very large amount of shifting blame off themselves out of this group, too, though.)
But are you always such a Pollyannish optimist?
My main caveat being that this doesn’t look nearly “pessimistic” — by which I actually mean realistic — enough to me:
The caveat being: we don’t have decades. We don’t have decades even if massive, robust, effective, radical measures were instituted this second (which obviously ain’t gonna happen this second nor any time within the foreseeable future) to fend off the catastrophes already in the pipeline. Instead, we just keeping pumping more “forcing” (in climatologist-speak) into the pipeline. With Total GOP Control poised to worsen that massively, to the fullest extent they can manage to pull off while in power.
Terrible things will happen. But politically the pendulum will swing back. I think it will swing back relatively soon, and quite hard. If Democrats get their shit together, stop trying to get the approval and permission of an imaginary centrist consensus, stop sucking down Wall St. money (big ifs I know), and focus on articulating a clear and coherent governing ideology and vision (instead of charming little proposals that, however valuable, voters instantly forget) they could be in a position to ride that wave.
Any Democrat who goes out of his or her way to accommodate or provide cover for Trump’s agenda is not only a sucker and a traitor, but an idiot really, because in a very short time those politicians will be utterly discredited as leaders.
Facebook deep six’d a couple of friendships for me. Their filters aren’t precise enough to selectively block specific individuals from reading content that they should not be privy to. I’ll talk beer and baseball with old chums, but I do not care to engage politically with them because it’s futile. I also have a robust group of Facebook friends from Dailykos days where I can freely air my liberal/progressive views on their timelines, not my own. They’re comfortable letting it all hangout, but I admit, I’m very timid about who I share political views with. Facebook being a cutesy, fun fun fun enterprise then takes those political conversations, and puts them on friends’ feeds who I do not want to have access to what I am writing with that cloying, “You might be interested in this…” tag. One jack ass (his name is Jack!) kept popping up in conversations that he has no right being in with the bombastic, “Benghazi, Benghazi, fetish, with screaming caps, YOU DON’T ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT OBAMA CRAP DO YOU?” And so, it was sayonara bye bye baby. But, now that makes it very difficult to turn up socially at get togethers when i’m back in Chicago. Thanks Facebook!
Too many to count, especially immediate. But I found a new connection and bonding with my sister over it it. She’s 8 years younger than I am and basically just startedcollege — big age gap so never been much connection. Keep in mind also that we were both raised in an evangelical Christian home, and we never talked about politics much. So it was heartening to hear that despite not talking about it much that she is like more liberal than I was at that age, and a lot of the language she uses I would have only heard in feminist theory courses I took. Yet it’s like normal verbiage to them. I don’t think it’s from her courses either as she’s doing CIS.
Anyway, we’ve found things to talk about through the election, and I guess I’ll take some silver linings where I can get them.
At what point do evangelical Christians look at the agenda of the Republican party and realize how anti-Christian it is? How far does it have to go before they understand that they are supporting the moneychangers?
killers”
(Noting: I, too, grew up within that milieu.)
No matter how distorted and misguided (and I think it’s immensely, dishonestly, heinously distorted and misguided), I think that’s the priority currently over-riding all others in their political calculations, letting them give themselves permission to ignore numerous admonitions and directives Jesus actually did utter (according to biblical accounts) to pursue that one thing he never addressed.
(I think it’s digby who once laid out the history of the takeover of evangelicalism by the anti-choice momement. For a long time, this was just a Catholic, not evangelical protestant, obsession. As I recall the telling, the flip dates back to the beginnings of the rise of evangelicalism as a political movement, when Ralph Reed/Moral Majority types cynically recognized its fundraising/mailing-list-building potential potency.)
“How has your experience been?”
Pretty similar, actually. I don’t talk politics very much even with my relatives (except immediate family). My extended family is not particularly academic, but I can’t imagine that any of them support Trump, and if they did I’d probably disown them. The more immediate question is Sanders vs. Clinton. I’m sure a lot of them supported Clinton. But it’s not worth fighting about with people in your own family.
My wife is a big Sanders fan.
I do know some orthodox Jewish people that probably support Trump. Some of them are very nice people. I understand the way they think, though I strongly disagree with it, but I won’t attempt to translate it here.
Like you, I never watch Fox News or listen to hate radio. Except that here in TX, a television in a public place is almost always tuned to Fox News, so occasionally I get a few minutes’ exposure. That’s more than enough.
Living in Texas, one of our neighbors is an elderly Methodist minister passionately opposed to Trump, particularly because he understands Trump as a pathological liar and racist.
But I know a lot of the people here voted for Trump.
We also have a friend, early 40s, Republican, culturally very C&W, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, very Texan, hates Trump. Also hates Hillary, but if you talk to him long enough, he’ll admit she’s preferable to Trump. Takes voting seriously, so he probably voted, and I’m sure he didn’t vote for Trump. So he probably voted for Hillary, but I won’t press him on it. By the way, he likes Bernie. Says he disagrees with him about most things, but likes and respects him.
Our friend pretty much hates Cruz as well. But somebody like Kasich he would have no problem with. I don’t think I can get through to him too much to the left of that, but at least he will listen, and maybe I do. I usually don’t “try” to convince him of anything, I just tell him what I think and he says he finds it interesting. Seems to know very little about the Democratic Party or the way Democrats think. I don’t imagine he’s met very many.
We do talk politics, because he’s good natured and has a keen sense of humor. The fact is, things have gone so far to the right, we do agree on a lot of things. He’s not happy with the direction the Republican Party has taken in recent years. He’s religious but not the “born again” type, is socially pretty liberal, definitely not a racist, has some good friends that are black (albeit conservative — not too rare in Texas). I suppose you could call his views moderately libertarian.
Part of a recent comment …
After 9/11 and the rise of racism and Islamophobia in Dutch politics and society, family and friends were split across a new divide. I thought I knew my spouse of 30 years … apparently not. I cannot tolerate racists remarks, pro-Wilders one-liners and just very stupid line of thought in a place I try to call home.
Yes, that makes me angry. It has become very personal.
I get along with anyone and everyone, have trusted friends across the spectrum, acquaintances in Jewish family and close friends from Moroccan descent.
With the rise of politicians like Pim Fortuyn and Geert Wilders, Dutch society has become intolerant and really despicable. PoC are confronted daily with discrimination and the political parties are turning a blind eye with short-term vision to the next election in March 2017.
Quite painful experience in my life to watch the downfall of a closely-knit society to individualism, personal gain, cheating and lying, and fake news politicians. PM Rutte as primus inter pares avoiding the issue of Syrian civil war, refugees and Islamophobia.
Booman writes:
Well…there it is, Booman.
They’re “deplorables,” those Republicans.
Step outside of your boundaries a little bit, friend. It’ll be uncomfortable at first, but even if you continue to reflexively think negatively about those people, at the very least as a political writer you need to pay close attention that they are saying and what they believe.
Know your enemy and all that…
In fact, if you could neutral out some you might find that they are not all necessarily your enemies.
Unlike you, I come from a family that is deeply split politically. My father’s family dates back to New Amsterdam in the 1630’s…a working class, Republican Protestant family that culminated in my grandfather’s career as a successful Republican businessman and office holder in Nassau County, L. I…a mover and shaker in that area’s Republican Party, a staunch, independently-minded conservative.
My mother’s family, however was Irish immigrant stock in the 1840s…anti-Brit (My great-great grandfather on that side was shot dead off of his supplies wagon by the Brits during the Troubles.) and pro-Dem. My great-grandfather was a 1st generation immigrant, Tammany Hall Dem who rose to be Mayor of NY for a couple of years in the late 1890s. My parents had to elope go and join the Royal Canadian Air Force in the early years of WW II because both families completely disapproved of the marriage. Republican/Democrat and Anglican Protestant/Irish Catholic tensions abounded.
I might say “Imagine the family dinners!!!” but I won’t, simply because there were none. We would visit one family and then go visit the other. It didn’t seem odd to me as a child, but I cannot remember both families ever even being in the same room together.
So it goes…
Both families were very generous and loving to me and my brothers, but the family experiences were totally diferent. My father’s family essentially lived on a small farm/horse stable…a middle class, rural lifestyle that is unimaginable in today’s hugely built-up western Long Island. Dogs, cats, chickens, horses, hunting in the woods, etc. My mother’s family were city folks, through and through.
I’m laying this out in order to say that I have a chlldhood relevance to people who HRC would have branded as “deplorables.” My father’s mother was a joy to me as a child…she cooked like a pro, played endless games with the kids and laughed out loud whenever she felt like it, which was often. She looked just like the woman in this photo:
So looked much like her that I am quite sure they are related. The picture was taken in the same area where my grandparents lived, Broad Channel near Hewlett Bay and it wasn’t that heavily settled in the late 1800s/early 1900s. The extended family was all baymen…shallow water fishermen and shellfish diggers…and she made the greatest oyster stews and clam chowders that I have ever tasted.
Deplorables up and down in HRC’s eyes. Bet on it.
My mother’s family? It looked more like this:
Mayor Thomas F. Gilroy in hispolitical hustler’s prime. He had 13 children, and most of them…with the exception of my semi-black sheep, intellectual grandfather…grew up to be NYC financial workers/lawyers or married same.
So that went as well.
Later on my family moved to coastal, rural Maine…after I had left home…and my brothers grew up surrounded by (and to some great degree assimilated into) a culture of “deplorables” that wasn’t that much different from the people in my father’s family’s area. I spent a lot of time there and was quite comfortable in that culture as well.
So…why am I writing this?
Because when I went out on the road for a three-week rural-ish car trip in the spring of 2016 when the Trumpster was beginning to really kick ass and take names…longtime radical that I most assuredly am…I had no hard-and-fast antipathy to the “deplorables” of HRC’s completely disastrous gaffe. They were, after all, “family.” Familiar at the very least, both genetically and culturally. I could hear what they were saying and feel how they were acting with no real negative, kneejerk reaction. I didn’t agree with them…I didn’t agree with my father’s family about much outside of the family itself…but I damned sure understood where they were coming from.
I came back and predicted that Trump would win the election if the Dems didn’t get their shit together. Quickly!!! And I got almost nothing but shit from the leftinesses in return. I was a Trump supporter!!! A secret right wing mole of some kind. Stupid. Dishonorable. A traitor to the cause and so on.
Of course, I was none of those things. I was just right in the wrong place.
And now I am trying to tell you and others here that they…once again…better get their shit together as Dems. Again…quickly, goddammit! Don’t wait for Trump to fuck up and lose his support. Ain’t gonna happen. Not for several years at the very least. He’s a damned good hustler. Bet on that as well.
Listen with open ears and an open heart to those of his supporters who are not racist, sexist pigs. Believe it or not, a majority of the people who voted for him are not haters, nor are they stupid. They voted in their own self-interest because they felt that HRC and the Dems were not acting in their best interests. They were right, too.
Unless the Democratic Party frees itself from total corporate domination and starts fighting for the woking people of this country…working class, middle class voters…until such time as the Trump reign proves itself to be inadequate…as I said, a minimum of a couple or few years…subsequent elections will resemble the most recent one no matter what hustles the Dems try to mount. Only real action will get their attention, and considering these people lesser beings of some sort ain’t gonna cut it.
That’s a good third bet.
Open your eyes.
They’re people, too.
Later…
AG
How deplorable of you!
Thanks for this, oaguabonita.
My experience with immediate family, friends and work place is very similar to Martin’s. They are all very liberal and academic. After the election the phrase I heard most often was how we lived in a bubble because the results really didn’t make sense. There was also fear that the bubble would not be able to protect those targeted by the Trump campaign – we shall see.
The exceptions are my racing friends especially in the Southeast and Midwest. Though I only see them a few times a year there’s a bond between us forged by literally needing to trust each other with our lives that is hard to replicate elsewhere. So while we disagree on many things I listen to them and understand where they are coming from. I think that’s why I am not surprised by the outcome in MI, PA and WI.
I also think the Democratic party needs to step outside it’s bubble and take a hard look at itself. As priscianus jr writes above (love the Talleyrand quote) it does not appear to be happening yet…
My brother-in-law showed up to Thanksgiving wearing a Russian-based Neo Nazi death metal t-shirt.
I totally was expecting a Trump t-shirt, but he didn’t break that out until day 2.