There’s a tendency of the left to object to any objection to Russia’s role in promoting Donald Trump as our next president by pointing out that the United States is hardly guiltless when it comes to trying to influence foreign elections. I don’t mind people pointing this out, since it’s true, but it does rankle me that this is used as some kind of defense of Russia’s actions.
If you want to talk about American meddling in foreign elections, you should start at the beginning of the modern era. The first real job the CIA undertook was an all-hands-on-deck effort to deny the communists a victory in the Italian elections of 1948. This was when the CIA forged its deep ties to the Vatican, which would become important as the Cold War unfolded in Latin America.
It’s not easy to unpack how the U.S government, the Vatican, the CIA and KGB, and the mainstream left interacted in Latin America during the Cold War. All of these institutions evolved or changed course under new leadership during the decades of the conflict. What remained fairly consistent was that the U.S. sought to undermine left-wing populism in the region on the theory that it tended toward economic extremism and was always at risk of communist domination. The Vatican vacillated, at times supporting liberation theology and at other times colluding with Washington in tamping it down.
Later on, the U.S. took a different approach, founding the The National Endowment for Democracy in 1983. That organization was in the news the last time a foreign power was accused of interfering in an American election. In March 1997, John Broder wrote a piece for the New York Times that expressed the typical liberal aversion to defending our country’s elections because our own hands are dirty.
Members of both political parties express horror at accusations that the Chinese may have tried to use covert campaign donations to influence American policy, but the United States has long meddled in other nations’ internal affairs.
At issue then was the appearance that China had preferentially funneled money to the Democrats during the 1996 election. This was supposedly fair game.
Congress routinely appropriates tens of millions of dollars in covert and overt money to use in influencing domestic politics abroad.
The National Endowment for Democracy, created 15 years ago to do in the open what the Central Intelligence Agency has done surreptitiously for decades, spends $30 million a year to support things like political parties, labor unions, dissident movements and the news media in dozens of countries, including China.
The endowment has financed unions in France, Paraguay, the Philippines and Panama. In the mid-1980’s, it provided $5 million to Polish emigres to keep the Solidarity movement alive. It has underwritten moderate political parties in Portugal, Costa Rica, Bolivia and Northern Ireland. It provided a $400,000 grant for political groups in Czechoslovakia that backed the election of Vaclav Havel as president in 1990. For the Nicaraguan election of 1990, it provided more than $3 million in ”technical” assistance, some of which was used to bolster Violeta Barrios de Chamorro, the presidential candidate favored by the United States.
And, of course, this was the polite stuff. There was also the nasty stuff.
Since the end of World War II, the United States, usually acting covertly through the C.I.A., has installed or toppled leaders on every continent, secretly supported political parties of close allies like Japan, fomented coups, spread false rumors, bribed political figures and spent countless billions of dollars to sway public opinion.
”If the Chinese indeed tried to influence the election here last year, the United States is only getting a taste of its own medicine,” said Peter Kornbluh, a researcher at the National Security Archive, an organization affiliated with George Washington University that monitors intelligence and foreign policy.
”China has done little more than emulate a long pattern of U.S. manipulation, bribery and covert operations to influence the political trajectory of countless countries around the world,” Mr. Kornbluh said.
I don’t really know what this is. I guess it’s the application of some karmic theory that what goes around comes around, or that the chickens always come home to roost. But it’s weak-kneed and politically unattractive. When progressives adopt this position, that Donald Trump is only what we deserve, that our Democratic headquarters can be bugged by the Kremlin but not by G. Gordon Liddy, that our country can be decimated by Russia because it’s fair turnabout, then it’s no wonder people don’t trust us to protect this country’s sovereignty or its people. This is what happens when a political movement adopts a completely countercultural, anti-government stance. It can no longer defend our institutions because it has become convinced that they are rotten to the core.
Unless you can craft me a theory under which the contemporary left in this country should be kept out of power and a dangerous narcissistic buffoon should have the nuclear codes instead, then I don’t give a damn about what our country has done or is doing in foreign elections, and I am going to object loudly to Russia’s role in undermining our candidate for the presidency. And if you think American politicians of either party should have their emails divulged by Russians because that’s exactly what they have coming, then don’t expect anyone to vote for you.
The progressive movement that I respect was opposed to what our government was doing to tamp down left-wing populism during the Cold War, and it was opposed to the way our government empowered and apologized for white supremacists in South Africa and right-wing dictators in Chile and Argentina. It saw these things as wrong both politically and because it violated principles of self-determination. But it never concluded that we should allow foreign powers to intervene in our own elections because of some kind of goose/gander abdication of national pride and responsibility. Nor did it conclude that it’s own power and legitimacy should be sacrificed on that altar.
I would not vote for anyone, no matter how progressive, who refused to defend the integrity of our elections and to punish those who intervened in them. And very few voters will disagree with me.
At least when Ron Paul makes the karmic argument, he does so more to argue that we should stop interfering so much in others’ sovereignty rather than justifying it when it is done to us.
If the left has any intention of fighting for the things they claim to believe in, they will need to get over this predilection to rationalize their own ratf*cking on some ridiculous theory that policies they largely opposed somehow justify it.
I’m amused by the people who accuse you of “red baiting” when you suggest Russian influence. Like it’s 1947 or something. Also, the so called “progressives” are cool with it because HRC.
But talking about republican perfidy is so boring, you know?
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Wait…..I heard you are a CIA bot. I did an analysis and no way a human could respond as fast as you did. Your a machine, right?
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Will the Democratic Party defend our elections?
Blaming the Russians is the favorite game of the centrists who don’t want to look at all the mistakes they made that lost the election.
Balls. It’s possible to do both ya know. HRC is gone in 2020, the Russians, FBI, fuckboi media and EMBOLDENED white supremacists will still be around. Probably a good idea to consider what to do about that.
Yep, they’re already getting ready to go on Keith Ellison. The smear strategies did a better job on Russ Feingold than they did on Clinton, actually. Clinton was actually a tough target – a clean candidate who was extremely well known – and the fact that the smears worked on her is very worrisome.
Well, the Russians and the FBI did help a little. And plenty of ‘progressive’ Quislings did their part.
And that’s the real issue with ‘Putin defenders’. They can either accept to themselves that they did their own small part to get Trump elected, or go all in with denial.
In for a dime, in for a dollar.
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Clean candidate? Hillary had more baggage then a luggage carousel at La Guardia on Christmas eve!
Yes she would have been better trump. But lets not pretend she WASN’T the 2 most unpopular Presidential candidate in history. Please let her ride off into the sunset.
Will the Democratic Party defend our elections?
Only if, when, and where it’s to their advantage. They were completely supportive of closed primaries in New York, etc. because that favored their chosen candidate, the electible one.
The DP wasn’t particularly active in the aftermath of the 2000 FL debacle where actual election fraud did exist. The GOP hired an army to fight down there and it was left up to individual volunteer activists to fight for Gore. Instead they blamed the Nader voters and did so for many years thereafter.
Oh jesus fucking christ. Closed primaries aren’t undemocratic.
Closed primaries are less democratic than caucuses?
Whether a primary is open or close is a matter of strategy for a party, not a philosophical commitment.
Closed primaries seek to focus a party; open primaries seek to expand the base of a party.
Open primaries are more vulnerable to ratf**king.
Closed primaries don’t inform as to which candidates might have broader appeal in the general election.
There are tradeoffs that cause most parties to flip-flop over time between the two.
Caucuses can involve more open and thorough vetting or they can involve a bandwagon effect. And inevitably a minority of the base is in attendance.
Conventions require representation and travel; they are open to machine formation.
Long debates over the method of selecting the candidates often obscure particular candidate or faction strategic positions. Lots of progressives don’t want to register Democratic but still want to have a say in who the Democratic candidate is, with a view to supporting them in the general election. Is the big tent going to allow them to flip in and out at their convenience or is it going to enforce party discipline downward on its primary voters? There is no correct answer outside of the practical realities locally.
Closed primaries where party registration is closed over a year before an election disenfranchises voters.
If either party wants to operate as a closed club (their rationale for closed primaries) then let them run and pay for their private club selection. Nobody should have to formally join a party in order to participate in an election as is done in totalitarian/fascist states. If the state hold the election on the public’s dime, it should be open to all citizens that wish to participate.
Political parties like those voter registrations by party because they can buy the lists and target those voters. Apparently because the political campaigns of the candidates and parties don’t sufficiently motivate people to vote.
Some states have no registration by party and others have same day registration for primaries and general elections either including or not a party affiliation. No indication that the elections in those states aren’t democratic. And the bloody caging method to disenfranchise voters is inoperative in those states.
WRT primary election rat-f*** in states with more open or no party registration when and where has this happened? Sounds a lot like the voter fraud excuse to tighten voter access. IOW — a non-existent or so rare and minor problem that the “cure” is far worse than the cause.
Under these rationales, shouldn’t I be allowed to vote in both the Republican and Democratic Party primaries? Denying me that right would disenfrancise me, wouldn’t it? Why should I be made to join the Republican club in order to participate in the primary elections for all Federal and State offices of all viable political Parties?
Also, too, it appears to me that the operative presumption being made here is that open primaries lead to wins for Democratic Party primary candidates who are further to the left than their opponents. If I’m mistaken in holding that interpretation, it would be worthwhile to know. If that is the operative presumption, it is an extremely questionable presumption, I believe.
Strawman alert. One person; one vote. Well, unless one is a superdelegate and gets one puny primary vote and one power vote that is equivalent to a few thousand puny votes and can also override the puny votes of others.
Electors also get two votes but almost all are hamstrung by state law from exercising any personal decision making with their second vote; so, it’s only ceremonial vote they cast.
Do you expect that universal open primaries would lead to a more liberal/progressive Democratic Party? Is that an associated goal?
Should States which hold Caucuses be made to discontinue them and offer open primaries instead? This would be the best defense against disenfranchisement, correct?
And who would make them do it? Based on some of your other statements, is it safe to say you believe the DNC should be made to keep their hands out of these State decisions?
You are asserting that non-party members have a right to vote in primaries for a party.
That is arguable only because the Constitution did not envision either parties or primaries even though the authors of the Constitution were aware of the possibility of permanent factions.
The method of selection of candidates are a matter that the party decides. I’m not sure what the argument is except for the other institutional protections available to the duopoly parties.
In the abstract, the argument is that if you don’t like the candidates that a party is offering, join the party, participate and offer some alternatives. If you don’t like the process, start your own party and see how popular your process, principles, and policies are with voters.
The other issue is the public’s dime financing the primaries only of the duopoly parties. That is the real issue–everywhere the state weighs in only on behalf of certain parties. And yes, they do argue costs and the complexity of the ballot. But those judgements bely their institutional commitments.
Constitution did not envision either parties or primaries
The Constitution isn’t silent on this matter because of a failure of imagination on the part of the framers, but because they couldn’t agree on how to prevent the rise of political parties or regulation when they emerged short of banning them and that was contrary to their notions of self government. They figured that silence on this point was the best they could do to thwart the development of political parties.
Why aren’t there problems for voters in states that have no provision for registration by party? Doesn’t interfere with individuals desire to be a member of a private political party club. They can do that and either buy their way to a leadership position or follow whatever dictates the leaders hand down. (Except for the period of time when joining a communist political party made the members targets of the FBI and congress.)
Representative government should be superior to direct democracy because it allows for the time required to carefully consider proposals and appropriately craft complex legislation. If it didn’t fail so often to be responsive to the citizens, there would have been no demand for a referendum process. However, both have been completely co-opted by corporations and regressive special interests. Hell in DC, members of congress don’t even read the legislation prepared for them by corporate lobbyists.
Did the Democratic Party inform it’s members — formal membership or voter registered membership — that a decision had to been made to dismantle the New Deal protections and let corporations do whatever they wanted? (Syndicates/trusts/corporations were intended to be strictly controlled by the people through their elected representatives and they were supposed to have a limited life charter to operate. Same with the privilege of copyright, patents, etc.) Of course not that would have led to massive resignations and formation of a new party. Instead, it was sneaked through in complex legislation that no ordinary American could possibly be expected to understand and continue using the rhetoric that the DP represented hard-working people. IOW — manipulate the people. That way it would take a couple of generations for people to figure out why they were worker harder for less and less. And when questioned, the party blamed the people for not having the wherewithal to get all the education that was required for them to keep pace with the “new economy.” (Of course if everybody had managed to get all that newly required education, there wouldn’t have been enough jobs for all the educated workers and the salaries offered could be reduced.)
Political parties, as operational in the US, don’t serve the people but the masters. Explains why we’ve all been inculcated to believe in their necessity and their power prevents the people from getting rid of them.
I assume you saw fladem’s comment on local Democratic political parties. If not and/or for others that missed it:
Local Democratic parties don’t and at least for forty years haven’t wanted members. They only want volunteers to stuff envelopes, knock on doors, and make calls during campaign season.
It’s a sad state of affairs that this post even needs to be written.
Where’s the proof/evidence? That’s all “progressives” are saying and it’s completely consistent with what “progressives” said during the rightwing red-baiting era. The source then for claims of USSR meddling are the same as today for Russia meddling. And it was revealed later that that past source was engaged in either “fixing the intelligence” to fit the desired narrative or actively engaged in propagandizing the US public.
The lives of decent and honorable people were hurt and some destroyed during that period over paranoid fantasies with a political agenda by Americans. (And that list included individuals that later and today are revered as liberal icons. MLK, Jr. and Pete Seeger to name just two.)
You didn’t experience that time. Nobody here is old enough to have consciously experienced as an adult the most intense portion of that time. But it didn’t freaking stop in the 1950s. It extended all the way through the Vietnam War until Nixon resigned and some of us here did experience that and educated ourselves on what it had been like from 1946-1957 and the really curious looked back at the antecedent decades.
The same USG propaganda tactics were used to get the wars on in Iraq, Libya, and Syria that you did experience. And before then El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, and Iraq and Libya.
Pardon me if I don’t take kindly to you calling me a Russian operative or Putin lover. Just as I didn’t take kindly to being called a pinko-commie, Kremlin and Castro-stooge, Saddam lover, etc. It’s as ugly, disrespectful, and false coming from a Democrat as it was when it came from Republicans.
DFHs punching by partisan Democrats when Democrats lose has become as predictable as Republicans pushing for lower taxes. Although the addition of non-evidentiary allegations of being Russian stooges is a new twist in the partisan Democratic arsenal.
For someone that has made a study of Cointelpro, you’re sure don’t seem to have absorbed what it was all about and how it operated secretly and so successfully on the public for so long.
The flip side of studying the CIA all these years, Marie, is studying the KGB all these years, too.
They skillfully exploited the left’s legitimate critiques of the Washington Establishment, of capitalism, or imperialism, of official racism, in order to sow division and undermine America’s role in the world.
You don’t have to ascribe all evil and all good to either side to see how they both operated, and how they operate now.
They is no shortage of useful idiots on the left today in this country, and the Russians exploited that fact to undermine Clinton in the primaries and in the general.
It’s what they did in the 1920’s and 1930’s, it’s what they did after the war, and it’s what they did right up until their empire collapsed.
They have never come close to being as successful as they are today.
They skillfully exploited the left’s legitimate critiques of the Washington Establishment, of capitalism, or imperialism, of official racism, in order to sow division and undermine America’s role in the world.
Where, when, and how?
As the US has had the leading role in the world since the end of WWII, are you saying that if not for alleged USSR/Russian interference we would become the actual ruler of the world? With US military installations in every country instead of only half of them?
However, that’s a separate debate and not one I chose to include in my comment. In part because it’s non-productive without carefully laid down rules of debate engagement and that’s something that anti-communists, anti-Russia people have always refused to do.
Have you read Chalmers Johnson trilogy and David Talbot’s “The Devil’s Chessboard?” Much of what you’re alleging is effectively debunked in those works. And I should note that in the ’60s Chalmers Johnson was associated with the CIA and did his fair share of DFHs punching, and only much later to his deep regret and for which he apologized.
So again, where’s this evidence of Putin/Russia interference? And where’s the evidence that I or any lefty is a Russian stooge which you did call me. Because I read selective HRC, DNC, Podesta emails? Why are you okay with their electoral dirty tricks? And all the other interference in US elections by dark money forces and the MSM? All of whom are far more knowledgeable and sophisticated in the arts of propaganda for use on Americans than the Kremlin could ever hope to be.
Face it; the DP team came up short against a bozo, and unlike most recent elections, the DP had 90% of the MSM in its pocket and at least twice as much money as the bozo. It shatters your claim that it’s all about grassroots and on-the-ground GOTV organization. The bozo had almost none. Whereas, my claim is that if the party starts with a weak candidate it’s always an uphill climb. Even when the opposition is cartoon such as Reagan, GWB, and Trump.
Demanding evidence after you just received evidence is trolling.
Please…what evidence?
Saying that there is “evidence” when there is none? None that can relied upon, for sure. That is “trolling. An attempt to derail discussion with bullshit. All we the “evidence” we have resembles James Clapper’s barefaced “No” lie to the Senate and the American people when asked if the NSA was tapping the communications of millions of innocent, uncharged citizens. No proof, not even a legitimate source. Just “Take our word for it.”
I do not take the word of liars.
ASG
You’ve seen the links. You’re not willing to contest them or offer a counter-interpretation? Just lie about what they contain?
Evidence has been asked for, evidence has been provided.
What is your expertise in the matter? What is your standard of proof? Is it, like Marie3, that no evidence whatsoever is sufficient?
there’s no evidence there. there’s a claim by this CrowdStrike guy.
my standard of proof is somewhere beyond “I read it in the newspaper”.
Oh baloney. They identified the same malware used to target the Ukrainian artillery targeting app that’s never been found “in the wild”. You can’t just pretend everyone in every US intelligence and law enforcement organization and every private security contractor that’s examined the evidence is lying, and that private forensic security expert are just inventing the specific evidence that produced their conclusion.
I mean, you can do that. But you can’t pretend the evidence doesn’t exist just because you think it’s “fake”.
the booman comment Marie was replying to (you did write “you just received evidence”, after all). I found what I’d call assertions, even reasonable assertions, in that booman comment.
But not what I’d consider “evidence” (i.e., in support of those assertions). (Whether evidence has been provided here, e.g., in booman’s top-posts or other comments/threads, is a separate matter imo.)
Jus’ sayin’.
Follow the timeline. I’d already provided links to articles discussing the evidence more than once before marie3’s response, as had MaureenDowdsLudes.
It most certainly is not. He/she asked for evidence, received it, and asked for that same evidence again.
“…the DP had 90% of the MSM in its pocket …”.
What
An
Extraordinary
Misstatement
Of
The
Facts.
At a certain point, these sorts of statements aren’t even a difference of opinion; they just becomes a peculiar, offensive need for some to create their own set of facts.
An addititional method being employed by Marie3 and others here is their creation of an unmovable fixation on whether the CIA, FBI and other intelligence agencies have convinced them of our agencies’ analysis re. Russia. They can withhold their acceptance of the evidence for any reason at all, including the fact that holding onto their skepticism creates an extraordinarily convenient method for them to attack any other analysis other than CLINTON AND DNC TERRIBLE. People insisting on doing this are no friends of progressive governance or democratic principles.
Their fixation on the Russian question also outlines their intention to continue to avoid other massive, precedent-breaking problems with the 2016 campaign, such as the FBI’s successful attempts to undermine Clinton’s support.
“The effect of yadda-yaddaying the media’s malpractice, Wikileaks, and a rogue FBI is both to normalize Trump and to make Trumps more likely in the future. That Clinton’s campaign, like all campaigns, made mistakes is worthy of discussion but is also entirely immaterial to this question.”
I’m wanting us to draw together to fight Trump and the Republicans; we’re overdue to do that. That doesn’t mean I’m willing to abide unlimited amounts of hogwash that community members want to dish out.
It seemed self evident to me that Trump got an awful lot of free airtime in the primaries and the general. But I wonder if Clinton used all the tools at her disposal including funding. I continue to feel she was her own worst enemy. No doubt she was unjustifiably attacked by Comey (twice), faced Assange and Russia and never ending accusations of criminality, none of which were proven. But I will leave it with just this. Who lets some dip shit get away with calling her extremely careless and then comes back eleven days before the election to be sure it all sticks – – and gets away with it?
I thought she should have Vince Fostered him but she didn’t listen to me. Seriously though, Comey ratfucked her four times (five if you count the Marc Rich file dump). Once with the statement in July, once two days later before congress, once on October 28th, and finally, once two days before the election.
I’m sure she totes would have won if she called him out for being a ratfucking pos. An opportunity lost.
The bitch was going to WIN!…
You can’t just stand by and let that happen.
Extraordinary dangers call for extraordinary measures.
Its all water under the bridge now. She told us she goes high when he goes low. Didn’t work out too well.
If the tables were reversed I wonder what Trump would have done if he thought Assange or Putin or Comey were working against him or if Hillary said she would put him in jail. She was not my candidate, but I was personally offended by his taunts and attacks. Humiliating it was.
Now we have to live with that POS.
You write regarding Russian interference in U.S. affairs:
You are absolutely correct in this.
I’ll tell you what.
Take all of the U.S. expertise, money and manpower that has hitherto been routinely put to use in jiggering others’ elections; instead reroute it so that it protects our elections and the successes of the Russians in this field will cease.
The same goes for the whole, rotten Blood For Oil/Blood For Dominance Permanent War system. Put all of that time, energy, expertise and money into totally protecting this country from aggressive military attacks and other, more subtle aggressions (the drug trade being by far the most dangerous to the society as a whole) and our “enemies” would be left with only each other to fight.
AG
This is a good take.
LALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU
You should probably go read the ‘family tension’ diary again. What is stated there over and over is that it does no good to talk to republican relatives. They have their own news sources, and their own facts.
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Confirmation bias is a heck of a problem to overcome. Republicans have their echo chambers, various factions of whatever is left of a left seem to have theirs as well. As long as they can continue to believe what they want without having to critically think, they’re good to go.
And of course we get the requisite attempted thread hijack.
It’s all so predictable.
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comment there:
Related, see also . . .
What would you accept as proof? If the only proof you’ll accept is Putin admitting involvement, then that’s a bar that will never be met. Steve M over at no more mister nice blog covered this well.
http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2016/12/how-we-used-to-establish-truth-before.html
sorry I can’t do the fancy link thing but this is a dive worth taking an accurate description of how to approach “news.”
Sure isn’t anonymous USG “intelligence” sources parroted by a compliant MSM and cited by politicians when it conforms to a political advantage for them.
And to think I had such high hopes that a new generation would learn from the folly of believing the WMD hoax (a four trillion dollar hoax). Should have known better since few learned from the Gulf War FakeNews.
So you can’t say what you would accept as proof? So it’s like obscenity, you can’t define it, but you know it when you see it.
FWIW, I thought the WMD story was bullshit. Transparent bullshit.
Sure isn’t anonymous USG “intelligence” sources parroted by a compliant MSM and cited by politicians when it conforms to a political advantage for them.
Good thing we have so much more evidence than that then. For example.
But I’m sure your superior expertise in forensic computer security leads you to a different conclusion.
Oh, the Chicago Tribune published “experts say …” so it must be true. Did it also run the “Iraq WMD found” story?
Yes, no standard of evidence is sufficient for you to consider it. You’ve made that quite clear.
Saying it’s no big deal if Russia meddles in the US election basically destroys your credibility to complain about the US meddling in foreign elections. It’s not wise if you’re interested in fair elections or restricting nefarious activities of the US govenment.
Also,
If you can’t ensure that we have fair elections, how will you win and effect the change you claim to desire?
It’s the whole ‘LA LA LA I can’t hear you’ that is the tell. No proof was required for the most ridiculous Clinton accusations. But now it’s all ‘Show me 100% proof?’ They don’t want answers, and certainly not any sort of investigation. That would give democrats a weapon to win over voters.
And they can’t have that!
THAT is why I call the republicans.
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The ineluctable forces of history. The whole system will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions, after which the people take over.
It’s in the Grundrisse.
“Members of both political parties express horror at accusations that the Chinese may have tried to use covert campaign donations to influence American policy…”
What is the position on this, post-Citizens United? Can’t imagine it is a problem nowadays… If money is all that is involved, everything has been normalized, no?
Didn’t Mittens and Bibi normalize overt support?
Wish NSA would drop the dime. But I doubt they ever will, even if they could. Obviously not needed.
Didn’t Mittens and Bibi normalize overt support?
It’s funny that 2012 is never brought up re: outside influences.
And the ones pushing the “Putin/Russia did it meme” have forgotten that just over four years ago Obama and his supporters turned Mitt into a laughing stock for asserting the Russia was our #1 enemy. Funny how some people can turn on a dime based on political partisanship and facts don’t matter.
I’ve only lightly been following the news the past few dreary weeks, but last I checked, the USG still had not offered proof of the alleged Russian/Kremlin/Putin hack. Wake me up when this happens. Until then, it’s just bald assertions offered by some of the biggies in our MSM which get picked up and repeated as fact by most of the rest of the media, including supposed liberal outlets like Msnbc.
But where’s the beef? Or even the tofu? So far, just a few layers of lettuce with some ketchup and mustard, on a sesame seed bun. I’m not buying it.
This isn’t too say the Kremlin isn’t capable of a little payback for, say, the US meddling in their 2011 elections, or the US meddling in Ukraine in 2014. But if true, why go about it by bothering with Dem machinations in their primary, which is minor stuff of a mostly insider nature that folks just don’t pay attention to. Far more influential on the election outcome was the dishonest 11th-hour announcement by the FBI re the Weiner/Hillary emails.
Even more influential however was the Republican meddling in the election machinery, in numerous GOP-controlled key states, which might well have swung the EV in Donald’s direction (at least according to early reporting by Palast and a few others). That’s where Dems ought to be investigating and where they might hit pay dirt on illegal activities which undoubtedly could swing the election. Failure to do so might also give the GOP even more latitude to repeat the process, only a little more so, in 2020, giving us eight years of the Donald.
But so far, Dems are caught up in the obsession over Russia despite a lack of proof. It’s all very troubling to watch.
Until Democrats can explain the huge flip in IA and OH (where no GOP election meddling has been asserted), the claims about election fraud in other “red” states are weak. Are Iowa and Ohio voters all that different from those in PA, MI, and WI? And there were significant swings away from the Democratic nominee in some states that remained “blue,” such as Minnesota and Connecticut.
Off the top of my head, Iowa is a lot whiter than other states and Trump did really well with the whites. As to the GOP meddling, I seem to recall hearing the NC republicans boasting about how well their vote suppression strategies were working.
VT, ME, NH, and OR are really white too and whiter than Iowa. Racializing election results is not only lazy but also ugly.
Cool non-sequitur, bro. Do the goalposts make much noise when you move them like that? You asked how Iowa was different than MI, WI, and PA. Demographics is what leapt to mind. I realize the answer you were seeking is “HRC sucks.” Which is equally lazy.
So you’re a mind-reader? Apparently not a very good one — hint: projecting onto others what you want to believe is there isn’t mind-reading — as HRC wasn’t at all what I was thinking of. Another hint: generically “rust belt.” Those voters want/need change. Yet in WI they didn’t view Trump as any better to effect the change they seek than they did Romney. Some people exercise their option not to vote for either a Republican or Democrat.
I see. I agree that they want change, to what I don’t know. My guess is they want to punch down for awhile, since they keep electing Scott Walker and he’s made punching down on the working class his MO.
Iirc, Hillary always trailed in IA, and in OH was always slightly behind so I’m not sure about what “flip” you refer to. In WI and MI, those seeking a fuller recount were stopped by GOP efforts and by a judge in MI, as I recall. In MI, something like 75,000 votes in Detroit and Flint were not counted on the pres vote owing, apparently, to the machine being unable to read a ballot where the circles weren’t completely filled in. Many voting machine failures in Detroit on election day, per Palast. Curious.
I think he also reported some 450,000 registered voters statewide in MI were unable to cast a ballot due to the GOP-backed voting suppression efforts by Interstate Crosscheck, which seemed programmed to specifically target minorities for “voter fraud.”
I argue for the fullest investigatory efforts by the DNC/liberal orgs to double check in some of these GOP-controlled swing states. Perhaps Donald won the EC fair and square, but from what I’ve seen so far, I’m skeptical. Again, if we don’t, or at least fight more aggressively over the vote suppression issue, apart from other areas of election theft, then we are wasting our time anguishing over how to improve our party outreach.
Will the Democratic establishment defend our elections?
It seems that “the left”, “progressives”, “idealists”, or some combination of the way-out-of-power folks are being tagged for the failure of the Democratic establishment to run a full 50-state election campaign with down-ticket resources and support for their Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates, given the presence of over $1 billion in a campaign warchest.
So far, no one has laid out exactly how the Russians were attacking our electoral system other than being friendly with the Republican nominee in hopes of loosening the economic sanctions on Russia.
The details of the hacking are worrisome, even frightening because of how compromised it appears the so-very-arrogant US intelligence community has become by taking its eye off of cyberdefense and seeking massive compromises of privacy, which makes it more difficult to secure its own information. Take seriously this vulnerability in US information systems before you start lashing out at those who have worried about this misplacement of effort for over a decade. Remember “warrantless wiretapping”. Remember the argument that requiring “backdoors” makes exactly those systems vulnerable.
The defense that progressives have been making of elections has been in pointing out the more serious and homegrown danger of deliberate failures of an accurate count. Many voting machines in Pennsylania are still not capable of an audit between counted and reported totals–a simple and fundamental check.
In addition, the use of felony convictions to exclude voters continues to be used by Republican state administrations to reduce the number of registered voters or force voters from regular to provisional ballots. The GOP use of absentee ballots in early voting is a potential weak spot in voting. And there was evidence in North Carolina of substantial GOP vote caging, beaten back through extraordinary election protection efforts in fighting off Pat McCrory’s last stand.
What exactly does “standing up for democracy” mean any more if you are electing governments whose policy is to keep other nations’ populations from electing their governments.
But none take seriously the real threat that more Kris Kobachs make for American democracy than still nebulous hacking by supposedly, although the attribution is moving toward a consensus that it was the Russians with sufficient certainty that Obama told Putin on the priority line that the US would treat interference in our election as an act of war. And further hacks seemed to disappear, or that is the current gathering of facts as best they can be gathered.
It is interesting that the rush to judgement has such urgency now that it is becoming a litmus test for the sanity, patriotism, and future political traction of the left-wing of American politics. And a “wait a minute” call for more information is being called a justification of the attacks. An explanation of possible motives has been construed as a justification. A historical remembering that it was the US that first developed the idea of military use of malware and spent billions to develop the various exploits of American-built software that they collaborated with software developers to not make secure is not a justification of a foreign powers use of those same vulnerabilities against the US. It is a warning that the US must clean up its own house with regards to the security of its networks, its doctrine of warfare, and its doctrine of cyberwarfare if the information transactions that support the global economy are not going to collapse in chaos.
And when you talk about “punishing those who interfered in them”, who exactly are you pointing to and what should the proportional punishment be?
And how do you avoid having the punishment affect the US or US interests as much or more than they affect those who interfered?
This line of conversation seems to be the distraction that one group of Democrats are using to avoid facing up to what has actually happened when popular majorities cannot gain power because of a variety of procedural restrictions. How bad is it? In North Carolina, gerrymandering and other procedural interventions result in the popular majority not winning the general assembly; instead we have veto-proof majorities in both houses. Let that one sink in. Democrats in North Carolina still are not ready for hardball as the failure to get HB-2 (Hate Bill 2) repealed shows. Republicans cannot be trusted to bargain in good faith; that is what is subverting our elections.
The defense that progressives have been making of elections has been in pointing out the more serious and homegrown danger of deliberate failures of an accurate count.
True and a reason for supporting the Wisconsin recount. The recount was aboveboard and to the highest standards possible. The machines won.
Perhaps the vote in NC was manipulated in various ways to avoid the real voice of majority/plurality in the state in this election. Unfortunately for the DP this time around, a “blue” NC wouldn’t have changed the outcome. More unfortunately, the constitution enshrines the right of states to manage their elections and only egregious evidence of voter disenfranchisement is a matter for the federal government and courts. Neither party can claim to have a sterling record on supporting voter rights and clean elections. Although clean elections were more the norm in the west than the north, south, and midwest. In part because partisan political machines never gained as much power as they did in other regions.
The NC vote was manipulated by vote caging at election sites; it was manipulated by some of the worst gerrymandering in the country, which turns a close minority into a veto-proof majority.
How long have I been yammering about the geography of the vote here at the Pond?
How long have the pundits and operatives just looked at totals?
The failure to look at the geography came back to bite with 77,000 votes or so out of 138 million. Just happening to be in the right places.
Why is it Obama never made fair elections a paramount issue in his last couple of years? It seems to be one of THE issues facing this republic in it’s twilight. I don’t get it?
It seems to me that Democrats in general and Obama’s Justice Department specifically have been screaming about / suing to overturn various Republican vote suppression dirty tricks throughout his entire administration.
With the number of GOP legislatures cranking out new legislation, in fairness, the Department of Justice can’t keep up.
In addition, the Supreme Court struck down pre-clearance provisions of the Voting Rights Act. This allowed Southern legislatures, now under absolute Republican control, to crank out all sorts of inventive discriminatory legislation aimed at suppressing the vote. By the time the legal process winds through, there were decisions occurring right before the election and some that require remedies that will not be enforced until 2017.
No need to worry. I’m sure Attorney General Nathan Bedford Forrest will jump right in to pick up the slack.
That’s rich after the Iraq War, bombing campaign, occupation, torture and nurturing AQI which was transformed into ISIL or the Islamic State with all the beheadings, executions and kidnappings. Death and chaos after 9/11 … blowback as a new scourge for the western world. Thanks to Putin and Russia, the end of the civil war in Syria is in sight after “turning” Erdogan into the camp of Russia and perhaps into the Shanghai bloc.
○ Susan Rice, Samantha Power, Rwanda and Libya | TIME – March 2011 |
○ Hillary Emails Reveal True Motive for Libya Intervention
Posted earlier in my diary – UN Charter About Sovereignty of Nations and R2P.
You must be a robot nalbar … coming out quicker than I posted my comment. Spend all your “0” troll ratings for the day, just a “2” … how very sad. Robots have no human brain.
They seem to be on a mission — get rid of the voices that aren’t in lockstep with the DP elites. Only takes a second to read the sig line and nothing else that’s said needs to be read because it doesn’t matter.
Yup.
AG
In a sane (perfect?) world:
Two questions then. If given the disruption of Comey, Putin et al, and Clinton had won anyway;
(a) Would democrats still be just as interested as they are now, in finding out if Russia hacked us or not, and calling for Comey’s head?
(2) Would the GOP just add this to the pile of grist they planned to use to spend the next four years doing nothing but “investigating” Clinton?
Bottom line, the sad fact is “leaders” in both parties suffer from a lack of integrity and courage.
Precisely.
Thank you, csm.
AG
I certainly support an independent senate committee. I certainly support actual fucking cybersecurity. I also would prefer not to have Russian psyops influencing us.
How about US intelligence community psy-ops?
Not particularly no. I’d purge the intelligence agencies and out right terminate some if I could.
“I would not vote for anyone, no matter how progressive, who refused to defend the integrity of our elections and to punish those who intervened in them. And very few voters will disagree with me.”
Appreciate your thinking. Merry Christmas donation incoming.
Thanks for all you do.