I have news for Matt Taibbi. When Russian mobsters crash your daughter’s wedding party and spike the punch with LSD-25, it’s not McCarthyism to be pissed off that Cousin Jethro is up on the roof with Sergei in their underwear jabbering about the Dixie Chicks and InfoWars. And it won’t do to pretend none of it matters if we can’t prove that the father of the groom was in on the whole thing.
I’ll stipulate up front that Taibbi, who spent his formative years with Mark Ames writing for The Exile and drinking and drugging in Yeltsin’s Moscow, knows more about Russia than I ever will. If Mark Ames is right, Taibbi is more fearless about Russian mobsters than I ever will be, too.
Ames claims that while he was gone [in the States] Taibbi mismanaged The Exile, running it into debt and embroiling it in a libel lawsuit with Russian hockey star Pavel Bure after Taibbi ran a prank story claiming Bure’s then girlfriend, tennis player Anna Kournikova, had two vaginas. Ames says Taibbi pushed him to take on Bure, a hero among some of Moscow’s less humor-inclined underworld figures, knowing that it might endanger The Exile and Ames’s safety, even his life. “He wanted out of The Exile and he wanted out of my shadow. He was pretty clear that he wanted The Exile to go down,” Ames says.
I don’t know why these two gentleman are both so hostile to the idea that Russia may have done something unforgivable when they decided to treat our democracy like a suitable victim for a college prank. But it doesn’t shock me that some people’s minds drift towards a combination of fear and compromise.
What I do know is that Taibbi frames the question incorrectly from the get-go when he makes it all about Trumpian collusion, as if stealing the voter rolls and using them to microtarget our electorate with fake news were not enough on its own.
Perhaps it will come off just the way people are expecting. Perhaps [Michael] Flynn will get a deal, walk into the House or the Senate surrounded by a phalanx of lawyers, and unspool the whole sordid conspiracy.
He will explain that Donald Trump, compromised by ancient deals with Russian mobsters, and perhaps even blackmailed by an unspeakable KGB sex tape, made a secret deal. He’ll say Trump agreed to downplay the obvious benefits of an armed proxy war in Ukraine with nuclear-armed Russia in exchange for Vladimir Putin’s help in stealing the emails of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and John Podesta.
I personally would be surprised if this turned out to be the narrative, mainly because we haven’t seen any real evidence of it. But episodes like the Flynn story have even the most careful reporters paralyzed. What if, tomorrow, it all turns out to be true?
One clue here is Taibbi’s sarcastic reference to the obvious benefits of an armed proxy war with Russia in Ukraine. But snideness isn’t an argument. You don’t have to agree with the bipartisan consensus view of the American Establishment that Ukraine would be better off in the E.U. than having itself carved up by a man like Vladimir Putin. You can agree with Donald Trump that Russia hasn’t gone into Ukraine and that Crimeans are happier being part of Russia. You don’t even have to want to give Ukraine “lethal defensive weapons.” After all, Obama refused to do just that.
What you can’t do is say with any credibility that Trump having the GOP change the party platform to weaken its position on Ukraine isn’t any evidence of some kind of quid pro quo.
But, look, when E. Howard Hunt graduated from fucking up democracy in Guatemala and invasions of Cuba to orchestrating half-ass break-ins of the Democrats’ party headquarters, people didn’t think it was Hunt taking it down a notch. People didn’t say it was politics as usual. What they said (for quite a while) is that “we haven’t seen any real evidence of” Nixon’s involvement and that all those pesky Washington Post reporters have proved is that Nixon Derangement Syndrome has arrived.
Or, the useful idiots said that. The folks with an olfactory sense for smoke and trouble knew that decorated CIA officers don’t run domestic operations using Cuban exiles against the national headquarters of a major party in an election year without there being something truly goddamned sinister underlying it.
But, hey if the break-in is only digital who cares if it is vastly more successful in pilfering information? Who cares if the theft is carried out by an actual foreign government. Right?
In 1974, G. Gordon Liddy goes to jail, Nixon resigns, and Hunter S. Thompson is vindicated. In 2017, Vladimir Putin receives a tongue bath from Rolling Stone and Donald Trump gets a couple of gasps of unmerited reprieve.
So, is breaking into a political party’s emails and using them to influence an election a crime or not? Is it something that Americans have a right to be angry about? Is it okay if we interrupt Putin’s murder spree for five minutes to mention that we’re displeased with him?
Or will that later on get us accused of premature anti-fascism?
Because, it seems to me that Matt Taibbi is a little too concerned about the tone, which is rich coming from a guy who cut his chops hitting New York Times Moscow-bureau chief Michael Wines in the face with a homemade horse semen pie.
When did Matt Taibbi begin giving a shit about the tone?
And this Russia thing has spun out of control into just such an exercise of conspiratorial mass hysteria.
Even I think there should be a legitimate independent investigation – one that, given Trump’s history, might uncover all sorts of things. But almost irrespective of what ends up being uncovered on the Trump side, the public prosecution of this affair has taken on a malevolent life of its own.
When did Matt Taibbi begin to sound exactly like George Will?
I’m no fan of John McCain, and I’m not above taking on his war record. And I know he never met a problem he didn’t want to bomb. But I sit up and notice when he starts making Matt Taibbi sound like Tokyo Rose:
Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John McCain (R-Ariz.) said Sunday that a select committee must be formed to investigate every aspect of Russian interference in the U.S. 2016 presidential election.
“Every time we turn around, another shoe drops from this centipede,” McCain told host Martha Raddatz on ABC’s “This Week with George Stephanopoulos.”
“We need to examine every aspect of it: President Trump’s priorities, and the other priorities many of us believe exist,” McCain said.
If you blink, you’ll miss our new Education Secretary’s brother meeting with a Putin representative in the Seychelles or another revelation about the former head of our Defense Intelligence Agency Michael Flynn taking filthy lucre from a Russian cybersecurity firm to talk out of school about American intelligence operations.
And to think people were upset with Kim Philby!
But no one made Kim Philby our National Security Adviser, did they?
I don’t know what to make of Carter Page, but I was interested to see that he was the target of a major recruitment effort by Russian intelligence back in 2013, and that he was offered “empty promises” of contracts because the officers thought he was just the kind of money-hungry idiot to fall for their schemes. He somehow went from that to being named as one of Trump’s top national security advisers and allegedly getting offered a 19% stake in Rosneft in return for a lifting of sanctions.
What I can observe, however, is that Taibbi is less interested in how in the hell Carter Page wound up mentoring Donald Trump and meeting with the Russian ambassador on his behalf than he is in assuring us that no one is a dupe or an agent of the Russkie intelligence services.
Even before the vote was held last November, news outlets were noting the influence of internet bots. What they didn’t initially realize was that those bots were Russian in origin and accompanied by an army of trolls. Of course, they should have suspected this since Adrian Chen reported on it for the New York Times Magazine all the way back in June of 2015:
Who was behind all of this? When I stumbled on it last fall, I had an idea. I was already investigating a shadowy organization in St. Petersburg, Russia, that spreads false information on the Internet. It has gone by a few names, but I will refer to it by its best known: the Internet Research Agency. The agency had become known for employing hundreds of Russians to post pro-Kremlin propaganda online under fake identities, including on Twitter, in order to create the illusion of a massive army of supporters; it has often been called a “troll farm.” The more I investigated this group, the more links I discovered between it and the hoaxes. In April, I went to St. Petersburg to learn more about the agency and its brand of information warfare, which it has aggressively deployed against political opponents at home, Russia’s perceived enemies abroad and, more recently, me…
Initially, Chen was focused on the propagation of fake news and stories that made America look bad (or Putin good), but by December of 2015 he had noticed something else:
“A very interesting thing happened,” Chen told Longform’s Max Linsky in a podcast in December.
“I created this list of Russian trolls when I was researching. And I check on it once in a while, still. And a lot of them have turned into conservative accounts, like fake conservatives. I don’t know what’s going on, but they’re all tweeting about Donald Trump and stuff,” he said.
Linsky then asked Chen who he thought “was paying for that.”
“I don’t know,” Chen replied. “I feel like it’s some kind of really opaque strategy of electing Donald Trump to undermine the US or something. Like false-flag kind of thing. You know, that’s how I started thinking about all this stuff after being in Russia.”
And here we get to the heart of the matter. Because undermining the U.S. by electing Donald Trump is what this is all about. On the one side we have Russia hacking into voter files so they can microtarget undecided soccer moms in Mahoning County, Ohio. To do this, they have armies of bots to like and retweet fake news cooked up in Macedonia and elsewhere. They have an army of trolls holed up in some complex in St. Petersburg to amplify pro-Trump/anti-Hillary messages. They have several different intelligence arms hacking into American politicos’ electronic communications and divulging only that which is damaging to Clinton.
And then on the other side we have this whimper of logic from Matt Taibbi:
These stories insist that, among other things, these evil bots pushed on the unwitting “bros” juicy “fake news” stories about Hillary being “involved with various murders and money laundering schemes.”
Some 13.2 million people voted for Sanders during the primary season last year. What percentage does any rational person really believe voted that way because of “fake news”?
I would guess the number is infinitesimal at best. The Sanders campaign was driven by a lot of factors, but mainly by long-developing discontent within the Democratic Party and enthusiasm for Sanders himself.
To describe Sanders followers as unwitting dupes who departed the true DNC faith because of evil Russian propaganda is both insulting and ridiculous. It’s also a testimony to the remarkable capacity for self-deception within the leadership of the Democratic Party.
If the party’s leaders really believe that Russian intervention is anywhere in the top 100 list of reasons why some 155 million eligible voters (out of 231 million) chose not to pull a lever for Hillary Clinton last year, they’re farther along down the Purity of Essence nut-hole than Mark Warner.
There’s always the possibility that Russia is simply deluded about the return on investment they get out of all these operations. It does look like the American Establishment still has some fighting spirit left in it, and they’ve acted swiftly to expose Trump’s associations and to cut out Michael Flynn. Maybe the sanctions won’t get lifted after all. But Trump is still the most successful acid-induced college prank ever pulled off, because the simple fact that he’s our president is a complete disaster. Our country has been atomic-wedgied on a flagpole, and our ass is exposed to the world.
If you think having a lunatic in charge of the most lethal radioactive arsenal in this sector of the galaxy is a safer bet than challenging Russia on the future of Ukraine, then keep your eye on North Korea. There’s nothing remotely funny about what Russia did here.
What we have are a lot of people who don’t want to face facts. Some think the Democrats deserved to lose because they nominated a bad candidate or the DNC rigged the game or they ignored the white working class or they pushed too hard and too fast on the cultural front. And no one wants to admit that they or anyone else was duped or influenced by the (often fake) stuff they saw in their Twitter feeds or on Facebook or from troll commenters on blogs and in newspapers.
Others think that the left can’t talk about Russia without forgetting to work on making a better and broader appeal to the American public. And still others are scarred from the Cold War (like Matt “no one seems to be concerned about igniting a hot war with nuclear-powered Russia” Taibbi) that they smell McCarthyism around every corner.
The truth is, we got pantsed by Russia and we have every right to be angry as hell about it.
Only when we reach agreement on this point should we begin debating how witting the Trump campaign was about the whole thing. And, whether we can prove cooperation or not, we know the result. And, assuming we survive the result, the result cannot be replicated.
There is also the conflicting narratives in the article: random people/eggs on twitter are ushering in a New McCarthyism, but the idea several hundred/thousand bots had an effect is preposterous.
Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it: one of the most common elements in bad political language (meaning, propaganda; misleading rhetoric; demagoguery) is how the potency and force of oneself and one’s enemies fluctuate wildly, sometimes in mid sentence.
Trump does this, when he explains that he’s simultaneously the ultimate winner and the ultimate victim of the AHCA fiasco — everything worked out exactly the way he predicted and hoped, except for the fact that he got totally undermined and screwed — or when Hitler talks about the Jews, who are simultaneously sub-human inferior animals and are shrewdly taking over the world by outthinking us, or when right-wing Americans discuss minorities and how they’re so lazy and worthless that they somehow take all our jobs and win by working harder.
That’s true, but that is all largely ideological. Taibbi and Greenwald’s excuses, when truly distilled to form, boil down to nothing but pure ego.
Now there’s a sunk cost to admit they were wrong. Can’t do that.
Just pure ego? Or a desire to see the corrupt US state taken down a peg?
I guess we could throw in their political sophistry and nihilism if you want, but I’m not sure that’s what really drives these particular writers, especially on this issue.
That would be more associated with some of the left, the Tankies and many anarchists, imo.
The crucial development in American history between the Watergate and Putingate is of course the rise and success of the “conservative” movement, its capture of the Repub party, and the attendant creation of a Plutocrat class via massive Repub tax cuts. The dawning of the Conservative Era ushered in an Ends Justifies the Means ideology which has destroyed the existence of higher democratic values. To true “conservatives” and virtually all Repubs, partisanship is now the only political value; nothing is higher. Party over Country, always.
Thus, the Repub party (and its captured high court) must bend over backwards to ensure we have the first popular vote losing prez in 113 years and then celebrate the electoral college as the Founders Greatest Vision. We must undertake (and then dissemble about) partisan vote suppression schemes so obvious that even (old school) Repub Judge Posner is repulsed. We must engineer every possible gerrymander, and defend the “Plutocrat Money is Speech” rationale of Citizens United as a bedrock of the Constitution. There is no democratic value other than “conservative” victory.
And finally we must dismiss every scrap of evidence pointing toward Putin’s apparent gambit to elect an unqualified goof to the presidency and vilify those trying to connect the dots. If Der Trumper and the Russian Dressing Connection is the price we must pay for “conservative” victory, fine….
Except for that election in 2000. And when we had ample evidence on the multiple means used by JebCo! in FL to fix the results there and at that were too incompetent to disappear enough votes. So, the Supreme Court stole “our democracy” with zero Constitutional authority to do so.
Democratic Party leaders didn’t make one-tenth the fuss over that they’ve made this time. What’s the common theme?
I don’t understand. My reference (perhaps confusingly) WAS to the Stolen Election of 2000, which I saw at the time as crucial break by Repubs with any idea that there were democratic ideals higher than Party over Country. They simply had to have Bushco, whatever price the nation had to pay. Institutions be damned.
Der Trumper’s election is now our second electoral college prez in 5 elections. Popular vote losing prezes are now normalized.
And I frankly don’t see anywhere near enough references by Dems to Der Trumper’s status as a (lesser mandate) popular vote losing prez at all, even as he nominates an extremist justice for whom one cannot possibly claim a “mandate”.
The forces of democracy seem to have lost the battle over the legitimacy of electoral college prezes entirely, and quite quickly.
Yes, confusingly.
Democracies have rules. And the US rules, particularly winner take all, aren’t at all welcome to democracy. Zero representation of any organized third party in Congress. That makes it a bit difficult for me to have much empathy for those crabbing about the rules after the fact.
As long as the electoral college is the rule, the national popular vote is a weak measure of a winner’s mandate. Bill Clinton (1992) only received 43% of the popular vote — does that mean his mandate was less than Trump’s who got 46%? Nationally HRC received 2.9 million more votes than Trump, but in CA she got 4.3 million more than Trump. So, switching from the EC to popular vote would mean that candidates would only campaign and spend all their money in the large states and flyover country would become more real. Good luck in getting them to accept that.
. . . was less than Trump’s who got 46%?”
No. (This has been an episode of SATSQ. Stay tuned for the next exciting installment!)
Clinton won a plurality. Trump didn’t.
Next question? (Got anything harder? That wasn’t much of a challenge.)
Clinton won the EC — that’s how it works. Majority, plurality, or minority is irrelevant. Unless or until it’s changed which I’m indifferent to because there are pluses and minuses to all rule changes. For better or worse, we live in a Republic. The distribution of Senate seats — two per state — is a far less democratic and on-going than the EC.
That said, 43% is still less than 46%. And I have no doubt that if HRC had won the EC and lost the popular vote, you and others here wouldn’t now being asserting that the popular vote should trump the EC. It was a crap argument before the 2000 when the GOP tried to concoct a means for how they could get around a popular vote win and EC loss for GWB, it was crap when Democrats made it after the 2000 election, and it’s crap now.
dishonest.
Your condescending lecture full of irrelevant facts of which I am of course already fully aware and have been so for many decades was . . . precious. So very “you” of you.
Your false declaration that I (“and others here”) are or have been “asserting that the popular vote should trump the EC” is ridiculous. I’ve asserted no such thing. I’m not aware of anyone else doing so either, but maybe, who knows?
You’ve lost the thread. Which is remarkable given that it was your question whether Clinton or Trump received the greater mandate (often expanded to “popular mandate”, underscoring that majority/plurality/minority are entirely relevant) that established the topic.
That’s a completely different and separate issue (ditto for whether either’s win was more “legitimate”).
Glad I could help.
At last, finally a good rant Martin! The emotions after the election debacle need to be vented.
Always looking forward to some rationale instead of raw emotion though. As the world turns and the problems are not getting solved … the Dutch have Madurodam to keep themselves grounded after being a colonial power. How about the US and its western allies, like “Great” Britain. Theresa May contemplating to follow in Thatcher’s footsteps and go to war with Spain over Gibraltar? Wtf!
For Brexit and cause of election defeat, look at some billionaires and Mercer!
Didn’t read the article. Am I missing anything beyond the following:
The Russians weren’t just attempting to undermine the US electoral system, they were trying to get a client elected President. They tried to hack Rubio as well, and I’ll bet every other major candidate for that matter.
They were trying to get Trump elected like I’m trying to get laid by 26-year-old twins; that’s the fantasy, but it’ll never happen. And if it does, the only results will be regret and mortification.
They were shooting for a weakened establishment president (Clinton or Rubio, whomever) in a weakened system rife with obviously-exploited flaws. They got a fucknugget Putin-licking tantrumboy. Of course they supported the friendlier candidate; you can’t ratfuck without a rat.
Thank God their goals were so unambitious.
I feel a lot better now.
In fact, I don’t think I actually have to worry about this issue much any more.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.
Your commitment to scoring points off the voices in your head never fails to impress me.
Well, it would be a fantasy for you, perhaps. But Putin has control over about 200 billion dollars and that makes a lot of fantasies achievable. They had literally thousands of fake Twitter accounts, and nobody’s even estimated how many fake Facebook accounts. With the amount of money they must have been slinging around I’ll bet they’ve bought some journalists too.
Another unintended consequence of the wonderful social media world!
Just a spot of mir i druzhba. Totally routine. Unexceptional in every way.
It’s the money/greed that will expose what Russia has been doing. Everyone has gotten money, promise of a contract that would result in money, or they performed some kind of advocacy in return for money. The definition of what a lobbyist is has been perverted. The Russians have spent hundred of millions of dollars to achieve the current result.
You quote Matt Taibbi, Booman:
He’s right.
You are right, too. The only way out of this dangerous informational cul-de-sac in which we now find ourselves is a rational, thorough and honest investigation into the sources of disinfo that are being blamed for the fuckup.
But therein lies the kicker.
Since national faith in the honesty and/or competence of the federal government has plummeted to a sub-30% approval rating…deservedly and without any help from any foreign forces over the last 50 years or so, simply on all available evidence…, who can believe that we won’t just get another Whitewasher commission like the one that “investigated” the JFK murder? A pre-judged “The Gummint is right!!!” coverup.
This problem is short-term unfixable.
Sorry, but there it is and there it will stay until long-term proof of federal honesty and competence is provided by the federal government. This is something that appears unlikely to happen anytime soon, so we are left to fend for ourselves and take every federal pronouncement or effort not with a grain of salt but with a massive dose of salts.
Meanwhile, the ship of state circles vacuously around the whirlpool at the bottom of the planetary toilet.
Yup.
“Investigate” the Russian influence?
Sure.
Hold your nose and dive right in.
Watch.
ASG
P.S. I am quite sure that Russia has “bot and troll” propaganda efforts in place, efforts that have had some amount of success in changing minds. I am also quite sure…and any rational person should agree with me…that considering the “sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander” and “Spy vs. spy” concepts, the U.S. has had at least an equal if not superior effort in place for many decades, doing exactly the same sorts of things. (In different incarnations as the forms of media consumption changed.)
I encountered a most likely U.S.-based version (certainly a pro-mainstream Dem version) …and proved its existence beyond a shadow of a doubt by a time/effort collation of hostile responses to my posts…during the waning days of the pre-July 4th dKos massacre way back in 2006. Is this coming “investigation” going to out those efforts? Efforts that I am sure were aimed at Bernie Sanders as well as Donald Trump over the past year or more? Efforts that were probably in place at least right on back to the non-personing of Ross Perot in the early ’90s? Aimed at Howard Dean? Dennis Kucinich etc.? Aimed at anybody in a position of potential power that in any way threatens the PermaGov monopoly? Please!!! Will it expand its “investigation” to include the pre-digital “Operation Mockingbird” actions of the CIA in placing operatives in positions of power every major media system in the U.S.?
I mean…talk about “affecting elections!!!”
Oh.
It’s only bad if the hostile forces doing this are from another country!!!
Riiiight…
Gimme a break.
Yore truly patriotic freind…
Emily Litella
Now a stand-alone post.
Warren Commission, v.2. Coming Right Up!!!
Please post your comments there.
Thank you…
AG
It’s a classic situation. Your kid does something wrong. Instead of saying “Gee, Dad, I sure did something wrong and I need to change my behavior”, they blame it on something else, like the neighbor kid, or the cat, or TV.
Similarly, with the Dems and the last election. The election was lost for 2 reasons
So what do the Dems do when confronted with this PATENTLY OBVIOUS and PATHETICALLY EASY call?
They blame it on the Russians and their ad-bots.
What a pathetic failure of self-knowledge and perception.
Even if all of it is true…
…Russia effectively stole the election for Trump because of all the reasons that’s good for them…
…and pantsed “us” in the process…
…so what? And what of it?
This is nothing new. There’s nothing we can do about it. Talk radio got going when? Fox News? Back in the late 80s? It’s been going full steam since then and has influenced a lot more voters and produced a lot more votes for far right candidates than anything Russia could do, then, or now. Now it’s exurban and rural dwellers binging on Twitter and Facebook and whatever other junk that’s piped to them by whoever. What’s the difference between that and its effect and what’s been going on for…ever? Propaganda. You can’t beat it with a stick, or a Hillary apparently.
That’s the game though. It’s always been the game. As time goes on, some contestants manage to work around the rules and make an advantage. And to win the game, Democrats need better players; not retreads from 30 years ago, like the Clintons. You want to beat the Russians, don’t nominate Hillary Clinton as your candidate; start with that. (What Sanders and his supporters were trying to tell you all along.)
The winners of the game, rigged as it is, aren’t going to change the rules. Not sure what kind of thinking leads to believing it’s possible (wishful thinking, I guess). No. We need better candidates, with better ideas, and more effective means of communicating them, cutting through the bullshit and the static. Blaming the Russians is a waste of time.
Can’t tip because the mad troll rater struck first to insure that your mojo will get dinged if anyone agrees with you.
hmm … nothing to see here, move along
You’re seriously positing that
I’m almost speechless.
You’re making a category error by conflating the Fox News bullshit with actual foreign interference in a presidential election. This tampering with our admittedly flawed democracy should enrage every American.
…what’s next?
…and no, I’m not positing any of your bullet points. I stated clearly I was talking about propaganda.
Great post.
And so now Rex says the Russians near a great moral reposmibility for gas attacks in Syria. Nice fellas these Russians. Death just seems to follow them around. Wanna make a deal ?
Well could you guess it? The gas attack I’m Syria was Obama’s fault. So switch the WH.
Bullshit. It was Hillary’s fault.
Didn’t unfold anything like that in real time. Excising everything about Nixon in the twenty-six years prior to the Watergate break-in AND the events from June 1972 to August 1974 is a cheap, ahistorical way to construct an analogy to the 2016 election and today/
Nixon’s style had been on display for decades by 1972; so, it wasn’t difficult to immediately smell that in the Watergate break-in but nobody was screaming that Nixon did it. The media, never fond of Nixon, could barely bother to report on the developments in the trial of the burglars. Had McCord not squealed after his conviction, the whole matter would have been written off as a seemingly failed rogue operation among some men associated with CRP. That was as far as the evidence led in 1972. And what if in fact it had been nothing other than such a rogue operation unknown even to Mitchell? Anyone screaming for Nixon’s head in 1972 would have gone down in history as nutters.
Those with strong suspicions in ’72 knew better than to concoct evidence and dots to Nixon. That’s witch hunt territory and history doesn’t reward witch hunters. Regardless of whether the hunt is perpetrated by fringe nutters or establishment figures including the mass media and VIPs.
Matt:
And here for at least six months. But that’s okay because I’ve been bashed and thrashed by Democrats and/or Republicans for decades whenever there’s a major or significant political controversy. Can’t recall even once when they were right, but there’s always a first time, I guess.
Why don’t you try reading the initial article on the break-in and telling me that you can’t smell something truly sinister?
And when Hunt’s name became public, anyone who knew his history knew that he had been involved in some of the most high profile CIA operations in history. Virtually all those arrested were immediately linked to the CIA.
Why would a bunch of CIA officers being burglarizing the Democratic headquarters?
Anyone who thought it wasn’t likely to go to the top, considering Hunt worked for Colson in the White House, was simply not connected enough to understand what they were reading.
Booman–Marie3 is just like X, the technician who was assigned to work for me when I first started my job. My supervisor took me aside to say, “X has never been wrong in his life, and if you don’t believe me, just ask him yourself.” Marie3’s wording is a bit different. She writes, “I’ve been bashed and thrashed by Democrats and/or Republicans for decades whenever there’s a major or significant political controversy. Can’t recall even once when they were right….” And I thought this sort of certainty was found only in the Vatican.
ha ha — so clever, except I’m not like your subordinate technician and no boss or supervisor I’ve ever had would have made such a statement about me because it wouldn’t have been true. On a temporary assignment with a senior systems project manager, he one day went on about how he was always right. He was highly skilled and very sharp, but I didn’t hesitate to point out that nobody is always right and that not being mindful of that can lead smart people with a solid track record of being right astray at the worst possible time and not see it coming. That’s what happened to the LTCM and mortgage quant guys.
There’s no such thing as perfect information in many life endeavors, assessments, and decisions. Luck and guesswork hardly ever are not in play. But being a good pattern reader improves the guesswork, but luck, or a black swan, can always appear and bite one in the butt.
What I find helpful is if I don’t know, I put in time to try to find out. If I don’t understand, I say so and don’t pretend that I do. In many areas I freely acknowledge that I’ll never understand.
–sigh–. Were you there? It’s easy after reading/watching a mystery to recognize all the clues, but how many do so while reading/watching? Not many or the genre would have died out long ago.
How were people back then to know of Hunt’s history? The burglars were quickly linked to CRP but the CIA links came later. Only those highly skeptical of the CIA (and those were lefties not ordinary Democratic partisans) read anything sinister into their prior employment with the CIA. Very little of the nefarious doings of the CIA were public and accessible by 1972. Writers, investigative journalists, and thinkers that got it right back then were mocked, dismissed, and disparaged in real time and not given much, if any, credit after the fact.
Whatever makes you think that you would have been outside CW at that time? In real time, would you have smelled COINTELPRO? Not bloody likely because the shadow was rarely seen and when it was, the targets were far removed from your own kind. How did you respond during the Sept. 2015 through June 2016 period to those that perceived Democratic Party rigging of the nomination?
Once again and in real time, I correctly read the original reporting on the Watergate burglary and had no doubt that it had originated in the Nixon WH. I can say correctly because it was a criminal issue from day one and developed from there (at a seemingly very slow pace) until at least a majority could see it. That, and not smelling a rat, was what made Watergate unique.
Did this country ever get to the bottom of the coup in Chile, Iran-Contra, and CIA drug running and/or facilitation in SE Asia and Central America? Much less hold the culprits to account? On that last one, the CIA and MSM destroyed the career and life of Gary Webb and before than dismissed Senator Kerry’s sub-committee investigation.
My nose has been fine for decades and didn’t suddenly go on the fritz when confronted with bad sources providing speculation and vague evidence packed into a cockamamie story. Russian computer bots changed the minds of a few voters in a few states? Come on.
The Democratic Party and most of corporate America got the general election that they wanted. It just didn’t turn out the way it was supposed to. Just like the Iraq War which Russia/Putin also didn’t arrange.
I’ve spent enough time reading declassified documents and transcripts from the Nixon Era to have a doctorate on the issue, and I’m not pretending that anyone had that kind of access at the time. You also make a good point that perceptions about the CIA changed dramatically as a result of Watergate and the fallout from it, and that people weren’t paranoid enough about them in 1972.
But I wasn’t talking about what the Average Joe thought back then, nor am I talking about that now.
I’m talking about what a very informed person could discern. And an informed person would know that it surely meant something serious that Hunt was best known at the agency for orchestrating the coup in Guatemala and was given a top job on the Bay of Pigs operation. He was also working directly under Colson in the White House. And even in the first article by Woodstein, they identified the whole gaggle as CIA connected. Why was the CIA breaking into the Democrats’ headquarters and planting bugging devices? The FBI might do something like that, but the CIA was prohibited by law from doing something like that. And the main guy was working out of the White House, and the most clear-cut CIA officer (McCord) caught on the scene was working security for CREEP.
At that point, knowing nothing more than that, it was a safe bet that the explanation could be found in the White House with a high probability that Nixon had something to do with it.
But, still, the pushback was the same then as it now. Where’s the proof? It’s a witch hunt. A few bad apples.
The difference now is that Democrats are not in control of Congress, so as Marie pointed out, as in so many other points in the Viet Nam era, nothing seems likely to happen about it. If it’s a useful tool to persuade voters to vote for Democrats in 2018 and 2020, then push the story, I guess. There are pitfalls, as others have pointed out though, to pursuing and promoting a story that’s going to ultimately lead to nothing.
People remain more interested in pocket-book issues and what policies will help us improve our prospects for personal security and prosperity. “Trump worked with Russia to steal the election” does nothing to address those issues, but it sure sucks up all the bandwidth. It sucked up most of the bandwidth during the election season last year, and it continues to suck up all the bandwidth now. Most Democrats, as far as I can see where I live, have moved on and are already active in ways they can be useful to win back power through the ballot box. It’s not going to be easy; never was. But Democratic candidates can not run on a “Russia stole the election” platform next year and seriously expect to beat their opponents. If this were a situation like Watergate, maybe it would be different, but it’s not and whatever degrees you might earn from all your reading of the historic record, you seem not to have learned much about why Watergate led to the demise of Nixon. It wasn’t about anybody’s ability to see the evidence (and there was actual evidence then, unlike now) or understand what it meant. It was about the fact that the Democratic Party was a lot stronger then than the wreck it’s become since Carter and Clinton.
And damn, but you know that. So what’s your game?
In 1972-74, there were actually GOP representatives and senators who thought that the rule of law was worth preserving. Not so now.