I was correct in predicting (along with Nate Silver) that most of the post-mortems on the special election in Georgia’s 6th District would be “dumb.” Specifically, I said that the fact that election was going to be close was the most important thing we needed to know and that discovering who actually won wouldn’t add much value.
Now, I’ve been arguing strenuously for some time that the Democrats are at risk of making a big miscalculation if they put all their hopes in consolidating their gains in affluent well-educated suburbs and do not address their weaknesses in rural and small town areas. So, on the surface you might think that I’d shake my head in agreement with this tweet:
Actually, the greatest trick the Devil ever played was convincing Democrats their future lay in winning over moderate Republicans.
— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) June 21, 2017
Our own David Atkins made the same observation a bit more expansively in a piece last night in which he argued that “There is no Democrat so seemingly non-partisan that Romney Republicans will be tempted to cross the aisle in enough numbers to make a difference.”
But this takes my argument too far.
When I did my analysis of the presidential election results in Pennsylvania, I noted that Hillary Clinton had done much better than Barack Obama had in the Philadelphia suburbs. In my own Chester County, which is an affluent, highly-educated, traditionally Republican area, Clinton won by more than 25,000 votes. By contrast, Obama won Chester County against McCain and lost it to Romney, both times by less than a thousand votes.
Most of those 25,000 votes came from “Romney Republicans.” Something similar happened in Georgia’s 6th District.
Year | Office | Results |
---|---|---|
2000 | President | George W. Bush 68% – Al Gore 32% |
2004 | President | George W. Bush 70% – John Kerry 29% |
2008 | President | John McCain 62% – Barack Obama 37% |
2012 | President | Mitt Romney 61% – Barack Obama 38% |
2016 | President | Donald Trump 48% – Hillary Clinton 47% |
Of course, we can get bogged down in defining what we mean by our terms. What exactly distinguishes a “Romney Republican” from a Trump voter? I think people are trying to create a distinction between working class Democrats who defected to Trump and more affluent and professional Republicans who defected from Romney. But that’s not a dichotomy that quite works in this case because the theory is that Romney Republicans won’t defect.
Let’s try to be clear about what we mean. Hillary Clinton won a lot of votes in the suburbs from people who had voted for John McCain and Mitt Romney. She lost even more votes from folks in small towns and rural areas who had voted for Barack Obama.
So, if I understand what Jeet Heer and David Atkins are saying, it’s basically that the Democrats can’t make much more progress in the suburbs than they’ve already made and that the easier task is to win back Democrats that they’ve recently lost. Either that, or they’re just wrong about how likely Romney Republicans are/were to defect.
I don’t have a strong opinion on which would be the easier task. But I do know that so far this trade has not favored the Democrats. The left’s votes are already too concentrated and I can make this point clear fairly easily.
When suburban Chester County was voting 50-50 in the presidential elections of 2008 and 2012, it was possible for the Democrats to also win down ballot seats. And the Democrats have succeeded in electing representatives from Chester County to the state legislature. Gaining 25,000 votes at the top of the ticket helps, but the area is still competitive. But in many other counties in Pennsylvania, the Democrats went from winning 50 percent or 40 percent to winning only 30 percent or 20 percent. The result is that many more legislative seats became so lopsidedly red that downticket Democrats no longer have a fighting chance.
In this sense, not all votes are equal. It’s more valuable for the Democrats to add a voter in a rural area than one in a competitive suburb, and rural votes are definitely of more use than added votes in seats where Democrats are already winning by comfortable margins.
What distinguishes Georgia 6th District is actually that so many Romney Republicans have already defected that it’s become a competitive seat. It’s definitely worth contesting for exactly that reason. Perhaps we’ve reached the limit on how many defections there can be, but that’s uncertain.
My concern is that even if the Democrats start winning at least some seats in places like Georgia’s 6th District, this is part of an overall shift in the electorate that doesn’t seem to favor the left. It would work somewhat well if the tradeoff were 50-50, with every lost rural vote being matched by an added suburban vote. So far, this hasn’t even been close to being the case, but it would at least allow the Democrats to win blue states like Pennsylvania and Michigan in presidential contests again. Yet, that would still be an even trade that favors the GOP because it would make their lock on state legislatures all the stronger and reduce how many seats they have to worry about defending.
So, I disagree strongly with the idea that the Democrats haven’t and cannot win over Romney voters in affluent well-educated suburbs. I see little reason to believe they’ve tapped that source out, either. But it runs the risk of solidifying and even accelerating a realignment of the electorate that empowers the right.
The Democrats should not leave competitive seats on the table. The answer is not to abandon efforts to makes gains where they’ve already been making them. The answer is to have a dual strategy than can do two things at once, which is to work on solidifying gains while also working even harder to reverse recent losses.
A random thought of no real interesting to anyone:
From a policy perspective, what examples are there of positions that would appeal to the Clinton Republicans but not Trump Democrats?
Does anyone actually have any data that proves there are any?
My guess is single payer and free college poll about as well among both groups, and both are popular.
I guess maybe social issues like abortion and gay rights: but Obama was for both of those.
Guns? Immigration?
My guess is in fact that many of the “progressive” positions are in fact pretty popular among Clinton Republicans.
A random thought: Yes, the D’s can win the R$Money republicans.
Another random thought: Why the FUCK would they want to????
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/21/15846464/republicans-are-in-trouble
Ezra and you seem to be in a similar place.
But he suggests the 4 elections so far show that 1. Dems are consolidating HRCs gains to a degree in the suburbs. 2. Democrats are showing they are capable of doing better among non-college whites than HRC, preventing GOP consolidation somewhat with Trump not on the ballot.
Earlier today he said that to do that, Dems need to be an answer to voter frustration with Trump, not just an expression of it (as with Osoff). He might not agree with your ideas about anti monopoly but he seems to be describing the problem as you are.
If these people turn from Clinton/Tom Price –> “trump won?” –> Ossoff voters, and stay that way, and we go back to losing rural areas by modest amounts, there is a lot to hope for.
Not ready to post all of this, but I think everyone is repeating basically what you wrote.
So some data. First, let’s look at Kansas.
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Some explanation: the census bureau rates counties based on the degree to which they are rural or urban. The higher the number, the more rural it is. The highest number is 100.
Now I haven’t had time to do better analysis, but note that in the more rural counties, the gap between Clinton’s performance and Obama’s performance is pretty large in relative terms. The smallest difference between Clinton and Obama’s performance is in the least rural county: Sedgwick.
If you compare the 2017 performance to Obama’s performance in 2012 in rural counties, you find essentially the Democrat recaptured Obama’s percentage. There are exceptions: but notice Barber, Chautauqua, Edwards, Elk, Harper and Kiowa.
So it looks like in Kansas the very rural counties have returned to the 2012 behavior.
But the biggest shifts are in places that are not entirely rural. Pratt, Sedgewick, Sumner and Cowly counties saw +10 point gains over 2016.
So the Kansas results themselves are pretty intriguing.
What about the four races. Here is a summary: the three counties in GA-6 are all very urban by the Census Bureau’s rating.

So if you look at Montana by county you find something different. Obama consistently outperformed Clinton in very rural districts.
Quist actually underperformed Obama’s performance in very rural counties
Now this surprised me. Where did Dem improvement come from in Montana?
The largest swings in Montana from 2016 were in Deer Lodge (33 urban/rural), Park County (47) and Missoula and Custer. All of these counties tended to be rated as more urban than rural.
There was a pretty big swing in Montana, but the underlying dynamic was in some ways similar to that in Kansas. The improvement in both came from small towns: not entirely rural.In very rural areas the was some reversion to the ’12 numbers.
I haven’t gotten to SC yet, so I can begin to run linear regressions (because the CD’s cut across counties and it takes time to get the county data right) but if it holds it will be interesting to take the data and then project it across the battle ground states and see what the shifts tell us.
I think it’s difficult to compare across election cycles especially down to the county level.
But I find these numbers very interesting:
May 2017
Greg Gianforte (Republican) 50.2% 189,473
Rob Quist (Democratic) 44.1% 166,483
Mark Wicks (Libertarian) 5.7% 21,509
November 2016
Ryan Zinke (Republican) 56.3% 280,472
Denise Juneau (Democratic) 40.5% 201,758
Rick Breckenridge (Libertarian) 3.2% 15,949
Donald Trump (Republican) 55.6% 279,240
Hillary Clinton (Democratic) 35.4% 177,709
Gary Johnson (Libertarian) 5.6% 28,037
The most interesting point is that Hillary Clinton lost 24 thousand voters from the total that the Democratic candidate for Representative got, despite being on the same ballot! Most of those apparently voted Libertarian, or left the Presidential column blank. They didn’t go to Trump.
As for the election in May, turnout was down 25% compared to the general election. Quist lost 35 thousand votes relative to November’s Democratic candidate. Gianforte lost 90 thousand votes relative to November’s Republican candidate.
That’s a pretty significant drop in Republican enthusiasm relative to the Democrats.
Via Bill Scher:
Turnout declines from ’16 congressional election
GA6
R: -33%
D: 0%
SC5
R: -72%
D: -60%
MT
R: -34%
D: -19%
KS4
R: -62%
D: -32%
Via twitter this morning an interesting tidbit:
The incumbent, Tom Price, spent $2.3 million against a mystery opponent that spent $0. Spending for all GA House seat candidates in 2016 was a fraction of what was spent on the GA 6 special election.
Montana was a clear case of Clinton being a drag on the entire ticket. As you note she ran behind the Dem House candidate by 5.
Turnout in a special election will always be done from a general. The better comparison would be to 2014. There is certainly more enthusiasm in all of the four races on the Dem side.
I find county comparisons the most revealing. It is where you the causes of the losses in PA and FL in 2016 are to be found.
Sure, but you don’t often get a chance to compare elections for the same seat, 6 months apart. That is one of the few cases where you’re looking at virtually identical voting populations under nearly identical circumstances. The number and makeup of those eligible to vote changes pretty significantly over several years, as does the economy, natural disasters and other crises that help drive voter intentions.
Ignore Trump for a moment, and the world is pretty much in the same place it was in November. We haven’t had any external crises, and Trump hasn’t actually done much. The most major pieces of legislation (health care and tax reform) are still waiting for a vote. Even his assault on the federal workforce, stripping agencies of senior management and leaving them rudderless, hasn’t had an effect yet due to bureaucratic inertia.
Um, I’m part of that federal workforce, and we are certainly being affected. Morale is awful, for starters. People feel targeted. We still have no damn clue about our operating budgets for the fiscal year that began last October. Middle management is if anything making the situation worse with demoralizing memos and whatnot.
Absolutely, what Trump is doing is going to cripple the U.S. government. He setting us up for disaster, especially his attacks on the State Department. But these agencies have still been able to handle day to day operations so far. The problems haven’t affected the lives of the typical voter yet.
Crippling the US government is the openly stated goal of the “conservative” movement for 30 years, and precisely what the “typical voter” of 2017 is voting for.
Because obviously a nation of 330 millions needs less gub’mint at all levels, QED!
Is there any numbers on votes – not percentages – for the presidential elections in this district?
Because when I check the numbers of votes in the congressional elections, the Democrat got about 125 000 votes each time. The Republicans on the other hand lost a lot of votes. So the recent result could also be Democrats and Trump supporters turning out for the special election and Romney Republicans staying home.
Democrats shouldn’t leave any seats on the table. They should work to get good candidates on the ballot everywhere they possibly can and then support them.
I think the real problem is that Democrats don’t understand which seats truly are competitive, but that they think they understand it very well.
OK, but I don’t like the idea of republican lite. The democrats need a message like medicare for all or even fuck Amazon and friends as opposed to simply “not Trump”. That seems to be what Ossoff ran on in Georgia, anti Trump. It wasn’t that he lost so much as what party do you represent, Jon?
I actually think Ossoff did very well considering he was outspent 2.5-to-1 in a district that elected Tom Price by 23% last November.
He managed to hold onto virtually all of the Democrats that voted in the general election, at the same time that 66 thousand Republicans stayed home.
124,917 Democratic November 2016
124,893 Democratic May 2017
201,088 Republican November 2016
134,595 Republican May 2017
Republicans committed a lot of capital to barely squeak out a victory there.
Where are you getting: he was outspent 2.5-to-1 in a district that elected Tom Price by 23% last November. (BTW that win by 23% cost Price $2.3 million).
AJC report (so far) isn’t showing such disparity. Money wasn’t Ossoff’s problem.
The plutocrats don’t care what they had to pay for Handel’s victory; their capital is essentially bottomless.
One of the (many) intellectually dishonest aspects of Citizens United….yes indeed, labor unions can “contribute” just like CEOs, trade associations and billionaires!
He did well no matter what — tribal affinity is much stickier in US, and I suspect there wasn’t much more anyone could do. It’s just simple math. More Republicans live there. If you max out your team and independents and disaffecteds in an area where you’re outnumbered, you gotta hope your opponent fails to get their voters out. Ossoff drained the well dry and matched ’16. But in a district Price won by 20+, Handell had more in her pool even with reduced turnout.
Price had token opposition in 2016. I see people using this argument and it really is not indicative of the true state of play in the district.
Ossoff spent 30 million.
He was not outspent. The opposition in GA-6 spent NO money in 2016: it isn’t the right baseline.
A district that happily votes for long-time right wing extremists like Newt Turdrich and Doc Price but that (almost) votes HRC in 2016 isn’t politically coherent. There’s no policy message to present to such a voter. Historically, they want far-right “conservative” policy–at least that’s what they typically vote for.
About the only thing you can say about these well-off white Georgians is that Trumper was unpalatable to a large number of them as a matter of personal taste and class. Not surprising given that he is an unqualified vulgarian turd, a disgrace to the office and now an irremovable stain on American history and moral virtue. But the policies Trumper and his Repub Congress are poised to enact presumably are precisely what a majority of these voters want.
Given this incoherence, running “against Trump” is about all one can do in Ossoff’s hapless position. But when the dust settles, it (not surprisingly) turns out most of these Southern suburbanites don’t hate Trump enough to stomach a new Dem rep over a third rate Repub placeholder/sloganeer, so that’s the end of the analysis. A large body of them might wish Trumper hadn’t won (although as Repubs they love the fact that he can win the office while losing the popular vote), but we can now see the competent voters there can’t actually do anything to revolt against Repub rule, at least prior to the American Gotterdammerung.
Factor in DC military/”defense” dollars that flow to GA-6 (and fuel the higher ed achievements and higher income in the district) and that incoherence begins to disappear.
So you are saying the dems have nothing at all to offer? Sounds to me like I give up. Move along. Let’s try that one all across America. Vote for us we hate Trump. That’s all we got.
We are talking about voters in GA-6 in 2017. I suppose I’m willing to go farther and say white Southern suburbanites.
Fladem posits that there are a block of these Repubs that might actually prefer HRC’s policies. Whatever, they aren’t enough to form a majority (and many of them keep voting Repub even when the Repub is a reliable extremist). Dems had a noticeably progressive platform in 2016. There was/is plenty to “offer” voters.
We are running up against the fact that tribal affinities and emotions now trump policies for huge blocks of voters. This dynamic will hold with these voters until American Armageddon IMO.
Same thing. So no hope lets just walk off with out tails between our legs. Nothing to offer. He offered little of nothing. fat chance of winning.
All of these statistics are, as the British say “academic” if the 3 main issues are not addressed:
Another depressing point is what I heard on Thom Hartmann the other day – the courts, because voting is not considered a right in the Constitution, can easily deny standing to anyone harmed by said gerrymandering, cross/check, etc. So we can’t even challenge these bastards in the courts.
What is happening in the US is akin to Weimar in the late 20s early 30s – most of the population gave up on democracy because they don’t believe that there is a point in voting. Thankfully I am in Maryland, where it is not an issue yet, but I can surely understand poor people who have to work 2-3 jobs completely checking out and certainly not bothering to register, let alone vote. As long as the Dems don’t address these core issues, that $25M was simply money paid to consultants to run superfluous and crap advertising.
That’s what a lot of the Bernie bros and purity warriors missed in the 2016 election, but what the GOP understood full well – that Supreme seat sealed the fate of fair elections for at least a generation. It is why Cheetolini states that appointing Gorsuch as his single (and frankly only real) greatest accomplishment.
My only hope, as a poli-sci major, is that cheating the political system only gets you so far, because corruption and incompetence catches up to you at some point. It is what happened to W since my position is that Rove, James Baker and Kenneth Blackwell stole both 2000 and 2004. W is a paragon of competence to the clown car that is in charge right now.
The brakes that were imposed on the hucksters, such as Dodd-Frank, have been removed so round 2 of 2008 will happen again soon. The question is whether a competent leader like Obama will be around to pick up the pieces again – the signs do not look good at this point.
“what I heard on Thom Hartmann the other day – the courts, because voting is not considered a right in the Constitution, can easily deny standing to anyone harmed by said gerrymandering, cross/check, etc. So we can’t even challenge these bastards in the courts.”
The Supreme court is hearing a case on partisan gerrymandering in Wisconsin. Could have a big effect if they decide it is unconstitutional.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/19/us/gerrymandering-wisconsin-pennsylvania-maryland-supremecourt.ht
ml?_r=0
http://www.scotusblog.com/2017/06/todays-orders-court-tackle-partisan-gerrymandering/
The game has been very badly rigged and the Dems hopelessly outmaneuvered. It had to be, or there might have been accountability for the plutocrat class that the “conservative” movement brought into existence.
Don’t get your hopes up on the gerrymandering case. The 5 conservative activists masquerading as Justices also voted to stay the lower court’s ruling, strongly indicating that they will reverse it. The big question will be whether the GRATs will persuade Kennedy to reverse the “one man/one vote” rule of the Warren Court, which was the foundation of all voting reform in the 1960s. It will all be up to Kennedy.
Weimar is the apt analogy.
Yes – to expand on this: “By allowing cert in the Wisconsin case, we have to wait another year for districts to be redrawn.”
My analysis/opinion on this issue is that the Supreme Court granted the stay because there is expectation that the District Court ruling invalidating the Wisconsin voting districts and demanding that they be withdrawn be reversed. The Walker administration, who are the defendants/appellees, argue that only racial gerrymandering is prohibited by the Constitution; their pleadings ooze “we won, tough shit” swarminess.
I fully expect the Supremes to confirm that political gerrymandering is A-OK – in fact since Justice Roberts announced a Day of Jubilee in overturning the Voting Rights Act, they might go further and allow racial gerrymandering too.
People ask why turnout in the U.S. is so low compared to other Western nations – a large part of it is because I believe that people believe that their vote does not matter and it’s a feature, not a bug of the GOP.
The Romney voters in affluent well-educated suburbs are the class enemy. Hell, the Clinton voters in affluent well-educated suburbs are the class enemy.
Workers and peasants are the way forward.
All correctly-oriented cadres know this.
Flipping voters has become awfully hard in the US due to tribalism. This is not news to anyone so I’ll not belabor the issue except to point out that this natural tendency of folks like us to talk about policies that will attract this or that segment may be missing half the battle. Tribalism is about identity, not policy, and the GOP has created a very powerful us vs them message.
Any strategy that fails to take this into account is fighting with one hand behind its back. Dems need to 1) subvert the tribal appeals and 2) bring on new voters less invested in existing tribes.
“making a big miscalculation if they put all their hopes in consolidating their gains in affluent well-educated suburbs”
Don’t forget non-affluent blue collar suburbs, either. Those are the people you lost.