Sweet Jesus, but I am sick and tired of hearing about Jesus.
Let me be clear. When a presidential candidate is asked the following question — or any similar question — about his/her opponent, it shouldn’t be answered. If said candidate isn’t smart or decent enough to leave it at that, there is only one correct answer. (Nancy Pelosi, please take note.)
STEVE KROFT: You don’t believe that Senator Obama’s a Muslim?
HILLARY CLINTON: Of course not. I mean that’s, you know, that, there is no basis for that. You know, I take him on the basis of what he says, and, you know, there isn’t any reason to doubt that.
KROFT: You said you take Sen. Obama at his word that he’s not a Muslim…
CLINTON: Right, right..KROFT: …you don’t believe that he’s a Muslim.
CLINTON: No! No! Why would I? There’s nothing to base that on. As far as I know.
The correct answer is, "Who gives a fuck?!" The recommended follow-up is, "Do you have any questions about stuff that does matter?"
Of course, no candidate who actually wants to serve in office could possibly give that answer. Fortunately, I am not running for office. So, I am free to say a few things that desperately need saying.
It makes no fucking difference whether Barack Obama or any other candidate is Muslim or Christian. It makes no difference if he or any other candidate is Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, a Rosicrucian, Hare Krishna, Jain, B’Hai, Vodoun, Wiccan, Christian Scientist, Church of the Sub-Genius, or Church of Elvis.
It doesn’t fucking matter whether he or any other candidate prays to Jesus, Allah, Krishna, Mithras, Zeus, Shango, Oshun, Odin, or Elvis (again).
It doesn’t fucking matter whether a candidate believes in evolution or not. What does matter is that we live with the political reality that time must be wasted asking candidates for "leader of the free world" a question that deserves no more serious consideration than any of these.
- "Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy?
- "Do you think professional wrestling is real?
- "Do you doubt the theory of gravity?
- "Do you watch Fox News?"
It doesn’t fucking matter that Hillary’s "prayer chains and prayer warriors" helped her deal with Bill’s tom-cattin’. It does fucking matter that Hillary was too happy to give face some face time to the 700 Club, and is aligned with some folks who put the "warrior" in "prayer warriors."
Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don’t….there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."
…The Fellowship’s long-term goal is "a leadership led by God—leaders of all levels of society who direct projects as they are led by the spirit." According to the Fellowship’s archives, the spirit has in the past led its members in Congress to increase U.S. support for the Duvalier regime in Haiti and the Park dictatorship in South Korea. The Fellowship’s God-led men have also included General Suharto of Indonesia; Honduran general and death squad organizer Gustavo Alvarez Martinez; a Deutsche Bank official disgraced by financial ties to Hitler; and dictator Siad Barre of Somalia, plus a list of other generals and dictators. Clinton, says Schenck, has become a regular visitor to Coe’s Arlington, Virginia, headquarters, a former convent where Coe provides members of Congress with sex-segregated housing and spiritual guidance.
We contacted all of Clinton’s Fellowship cell mates, but only one agreed to speak—though she stressed that there’s much she’s not "at liberty" to reveal. Grace Nelson used to be the organizer of the Florida Governor’s Prayer Breakfast, which makes her a piety broker in Florida politics—she would decide who could share the head table with Jeb Bush. Clinton’s prayer cell was tight-knit, according to Nelson, who recalled that one of her conservative prayer partners was at first loath to pray for the first lady, but learned to "love Hillary as much as any of us love Hillary." Cells like these, Nelson added, exist in "parliaments all over the world," with all welcome so long as they submit to "the person of Jesus" as the source of their power.
It matters that any serious candidate for office must genuflect at the altar of unreason if he/she is to have any hope of being elected; and had better not stray to far from it if he/she wants to be re-elected.
It matters when the Democratic party hires a consultant who advises them to back off on the separation of church and state.
It matters that a presidential candidate can make a statement like, "Freedom requires religion," and go virtually unchallenged in the media. It matters that a presidential candidate can declare that the constitution should be amended to suit "God’s standards," and still be a contender for his party’s nomination, still garner newspaper endorsements, and still have a future in his party.
It matters that the House would pass a resolution that all but declared America a "Christian nation." It matters that only nine Democrats mustered the courage to vote against it.
It matters that "abstinence-only education" doesn’t fucking work, but House Democrats voted to preserve funding for "abstinence-only education," a cause near and dear (and profitable) to the evangelical right.
It matters that you can lose your children for having the wrong faith or no faith at all.
It matters that being critical of Christianity can lose you your job, if you blog for a presidential campaign. And it matters that a presidential campaign can’t hire bloggers who are critical of Christians and Christianity.
It matters that tax dollars are now being used to proselytize for evangelical Christianity, because the Bush administration — with a little help from Congress — has smashed regulations that protected church-state separation.
It matters that people who actually celebrate violence in the Middle East as the prelude to the Rapture have a direct line to the White House to influence foreign policy, and are sought out to endorse presidential candidates.
It matters that — despite the lip service paid to "no religious test" — candidates must, or think they must wear their Christianity on their sleeve in order to win elections.
It matters that the myth of the values voter — that "contaminated strain of punditry" — has, like religion itself, spread so far and wide and become so throughly accepted despite a lack of tangible evidence to support it, that we now face the very real possibility of choosing between two candidates who’ve gone out of their way to court the evangelical vote — the Republicans to maintain their 70% of the evangelical vote from 2004, and the Democrats their nearly 30%.
It matters that we may end up choosing between a candidate who’s willing to accept James Hagee’s endorement, or at least not willing to reject it, and on who belong to an organization whose ultimate goal is to move the country rightward.
That’s how it works: The Fellowship isn’t out to turn liberals into conservatives; rather, it convinces politicians they can transcend left and right with an ecumenical faith that rises above politics. Only the faith is always evangelical, and the politics always move rightward.
This is in line with the Christian right’s long-term strategy. Francis Schaeffer, late guru of the movement, coined the term "cobelligerency" to describe the alliances evangelicals must forge with conservative Catholics. Colson, his most influential disciple, has refined the concept of cobelligerency to deal with less-than-pure politicians. In this application, conservatives sit pretty and wait for liberals looking for common ground to come to them. Clinton, Colson told us, "has a lot of history" to overcome, but he sees her making the right moves.
It matters that, apparently, no one who’s anyone or wants to be anyone to be taken serliously can point out the painfully obvious.
What I hear from the progressive netroots is pretty much that if Democrats have to put our issues on the back burner, and reach out to more conservative voters, in order to get back into power, we should understand that, and help them win so that they can move those issues forward later. I keep asking how they’re going to do that and stay in power if they have a new, more conservative, conservative constituency that won’t let them do that and stay in power. I keep asking how this doesn’t add up to a more conservative Democratic party.
So, I’m sick and fucking tired of hearing about Jesus. Unless he’s running for office, or on the short list for Veep, I don’t need to hear about him from political candidates. I don’t need to know if they believe him any more than I need to know if they believe in the tooth fairy. I don’t need to know if they pray to Jesus any more than I need to know whether they still write letters to Santa Claus.
It doesn’t fucking matter. He doesn’t fucking matter. Unless he’s appointed to a cabinet position or the Supreme Court, he doesn’t matter. Unless he’s the leader of some foreign nation we have some relationship with, good or bad, he doesn’t matter. Unless he turns up and give a press conference, so we can hear directly from him where he stands on various issues, ask him some questions, and get answers that aren’t just directly transmitted to Pat Robertson’s brain, he’s irrelevant. (And maybe even then, unless he’s running for office.)
Unless he’s going to actually govern, Jesus is not relevant to the presidential race. Nor is what the candidates think of him , or if they think of him at all, since their religious beliefs shouldn’t be the basis of public policy. It doesn’t matter whether a candidate believes in Jesus any more than it does whether he/she believes in leprechauns.
It doesn’t matter whether Obama believes in Jesus or not. It matters that it matters. And it matters that that doesn’t matter.
Here endeth the rant.
Isn’t there something in the Constitution that forbids any prospective candidate for public office from being made to pass a religious test? I seem to recall that there is. Oh, wait, there is!
http://www.foundingfathers.info/documents/constitution.html
Terrance that was an excellent rant. Make a comment against Christianity or your suspected of not being a believer and its the inquisition all over again. Worse yet profess no religious beliefs and your the worst the world has to offer. Any religion no matter how intolerant is considered better then none at all.
How many millions have died over superstitious nonsense. How many bad decisions have and are being made because religion is forced in everyones faces? Its ridiculous. Especially in an election in a country with separation of church and state. More religion equals more war. Its fundamental.
I honestly thought you’d fallen for a parody when I first read the “interview”. Nobody would ask this and Hillary wouldn’t give such a self-serving answer. But no, wrong again. I keep thinking I’ve reached the bottom of the barrel when it comes to cynicism, but then somebody comes along and shows I’m still just an amateur. I just wish it wasn’t somebody that’s supposed to be on my side.
It mystifies me when Democrats respond to these questions — questions that shouldn’t be asked or answered in the first place, because to answer them is to dignify them, to legitimize them.
I want to grab these politicians and scream, “Stop accepting their framing! Stop validating it!”
But, then, maybe that’s what they intend to do.
On another note, I’m beginning to despair ever being able to vote for a progressive presidential candidate. On a Democratic ticket, anyway. If it happens in my lifetime, it will be in spite of everything that’s brought us to this point.
yup.pretty much.
I often comment to a particularly persistent believer that my God put alot of work into the big bang and subsequent design of a potentially beautiful globe just so that he wouldn’t have to cram into some man-made edifice and listen to blowhards speak for him.
Saw on KO that a dearly masochistic scientist is claiming proof that Moses was stoned as he gave his sermon on the mount. Oh my, do you have a comment on how Muslims will react to this Sen Obama?
Well shit, don’t you know it’s critically important that we not elect a stealth Muslim president. Do you know what that would mean? He’d open the gates while we were all sleeping (at 3am, of course), and we’d be defenseless while millions of wild-eyed Muslim fanatics swim across the fucking ocean to behead us all in our beds.
Sheesh.
The religious test is applied by the voters, every time one of them steps into the voting booth.
For some reason, it’s important to people what the president believes.
Know what? I don’t care what the president believes. We’ve had eight years of a president who believes. Where exactly has it gotten us?
I want a president who thinks.
I’ve had eight years of a president who has the news filtered through his staff, so he can get an “objective” summary; the same president who was surprised to learn that gas is approaching $4 per gallon. I want a president who pays attention to what’s happening in our world because he/she wants to know.
I’ve had eight years of a president who makes decisions based on what he believes and ignores evidence that contradicts what he believes. I want a president who can take in new information and new evidence, compare it to what he/she believes and change his/her position if the evidence shows what he/she believed was actually wrong or unfounded.
I’ve had eight years of a president who’s legendary for being “resolute.” (Remember that one from 2004?) This is the same president who recently read polling on Iraq as being in his favor, and just days ago declared that the economy is not entering a recession; something a majority of Americans surveyed agreed on back in October. I want a president who has some doubts.
I want a president who knows the difference between belief and knowledge. I want a president who knows there’s much he/she doesn’t know, and who actually wants to find out.
I don’t care what the president believes. I care that he/she thinks.
No, we haven’t, no more than have we had a compassionate conservative these last 7+ years, no more than have we had a uniter, not a divider these past 7+ years, no more than have we had the Mission Accomplished these past however many years. Why anyone would believe anything that comes out of Bush’s mouth is utterly beyond me – when he lies he speaks his native language, and that’s not limited to his public pronouncements on the Misadventure in Mesopotamia…
So much blood has been shed by the Church because of an omission from the Gospel: “Ye shall be indifferent as to what your neighbor’s religion is.” Not merely tolerant of it, but indifferent to it. Divinity is claimed for many religions; but no religion is great enough or divine enough to add that new law to its code.
Mark Twain
Most people here have likely seen the polls indicating that an atheist would be less acceptable as president than any religious, racial, gender or ethnic group.
Which is one of many reasons a group of us founded a local chapter of the American Humanist Association to promote Humanism “which is a rational philosophy informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by compassion.”
We have lectures, programs, a scholarship contest, a science discussion group and social events. We also write numerous LTE’s to counter the ones printed that favor war, no line between church and state, etc. We run “image” ads in the paper on a regular basis to explain our values to the general public and actively seek partner organizations in good causes to demonstrate our dedication to the environment and social justice.
I heard the exchange about 3 or 4 times in the last day or so. Hillary sounded so sheepish, so non-affirmative that I thought she, classic political hack that she is, left some wiggle room in her tone and in her comments which did not defend Obama at all.
“Like, um . . . I don’t THINK he’s a muslim . . . ”
She’s one sly bastard.
She’s a lawyer.
She knows when to affirm and when to say just enough to convey the opposite.
I can say a few other things about that lying, cheating, scheming, complaining, self-excusing, whining bitch-of-a-loser who’ll tear my country apart just to satisfy her ego… but why get angry?
She is not entitled to a title, but wants it desperately… so why doesn’t she move to a third world country where the feudalistic system permits presidents-for-life and inherited power, where bribes don’t have to be concealed in stock trading or book advances, where torture and rendition and secret police support the authoritarians and the state religion keeps the sheeple properly submissive… and leave America alone so we can clean up the mess left by wanna-be dictators and their minions.
NO MORE DYNASTIES!!!
No Clintons! No Bushes!!
Ever, ever again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The second, third, and fourth coming would be too soon to endure any more of these paternalistic patricians and their issue.
If there is a God, he can give her a throne in heaven. She doesn’t get one here.
With all those thirty-five years of experience, maybe Hillary missed Obama being sworn in on a Bible, or hadn’t noticed the RELIGION of her opponent.
In fact, for too many people Jesus does matter.
Given my age, it’s going to have to happen soon. Although I did have the opportunity when I was younger.
Ultimately, all that matters is the consent of the governed (within the constraints of the Constitution). The question that is posed and answered each election cycle is what does it take for the governed to yield their consent? That will vary from person to person and year to year – some will require a “correct” position on abortion, or homosexuality, or NAFTA, or Iraq, or taxation, or regulation, or any number of “valid” issues. Yet others simply want or need or, remembering that it’s election day and they don’t even know who’s running, will vote for someone that they trust, someone that they can relate to, and politicians have been working those points of commonality for as long as people have been voting for public servants. This is why every election year ducks get nervous – too many policy wonks trying to show they’re just like Merle during hunting season. This is why politicians kiss babies and press flesh and tell flattering stories about towns that they’d really rather never ever see again. It’s the same story that anyone who’s been in sales will tell you a million times over – people buy on emotion and justify with reason.
It would be easier if we were a country of Vulcans – candidates would logically present their credentials and policy positions and the citizens would then make the logical choice – but we’re not green-blooded Vulcans (yes, my pointy-ear-o-phobia is showing), we’re merely humans whose emotions have at least as much to do with our decision-making as our thinking. Some people’s emotions are influenced by a candidate’s hobbies. Some people’s emotions are influenced by a candidate’s beliefs. Some people’s emotions are influenced by a candidate’s policy positions or life story or the way he looks in a cowboy hat. Different strokes for different folks.
We may agree or disagree with the value that different people place on different aspects of candidates – I personally couldn’t care less about a candidate’s proclivity or ability to shoot water fowl, but his/her approach to poverty and foreign policy is of the utmost importance to me – but when we begin to say that it is invalid for someone to prefer one candidate over another based on something that does not specifically speak to us then we begin to emulate the one principle that we supposedly oppose above all else.
Intolerance.
Well , her answer implies that she wants to screw him with a religion that he doesn’t associate with. Are you and Bill atheists? Do you have Satan decorations all over the kitchen. What are your thoughts on VooDoo? She shouldn’t be running for President because she doesn’t have a clue about secular government. Shame on you Hillary!
This part is most telling:
CLINTON: No! No! Why would I? There’s nothing to base that on. As far as I know.
Yeah, as far as she knows.
Steeped in her answer is the implication that it might matter if he was a Muslim.
Steve Croft would have gotten a hat tip from me if he had worked in the question, are you or Bill members of Opus Dei? As long as we’re askin’