Update [2005-6-12 14:49:0 by pastordan]: Sorry not to respond to comments as they came in; my wife and I were away this afternoon.
Some folks in the thread have pointed out that reconciliation requires atonement and that justice be done, which is quite correct. However, my belief (and the argument here) is that the precursor of those things is a willingness to stay connected with the other party. No engagement, no reconciliation.
I think Kansas pretty neatly summed up my position in this comment:
Well, there’s reconciliation and there’s reconciliation.
I’ve felt re-connected and reconciled to myself this week. “Oh, right! Duh! I’m a person who doesn’t want to give tacit approval to denigrations of women by remaining part of a group where that happens a lot.” “And, sheesh, I’m a person who doesn’t thrive in a loud, agressive, insulting environment. What was I thinking to stay there?”
There’s also the matter of sacrifice that Paul talks about in your Bible verse. Sometimes we make sacrifices for the greater good. I think that’s a privilege. I think a lot of people who left dK felt like they were losing something they loved, but they had to give it up for the sake of all sorts of other good things. And now the water is roiled, but then Christ’s friends and enemies were pretty upset for a while after he left, too. That’s not to paint anybody in this whole situation as saints! god knows, just to say that peace doesn’t necessarily follow right on the heels of sacrifice, and that’s apparently okay.
Yep.
It’s been an interesting couple of weeks over at Daily Kos. For what it’s worth at this late date, I have no real position on the pie fights. I thought everybody had good points, and I think those points got overplayed on all sides.
It’s the nature of an open-source community: our strength is that we’re open to many perspectives, many contributions from many different sources. Our downfall is that that same openness means that it’s hard to put the brakes on a destructive cycle of argument. It just grows and grows until it burns itself out. Call it the “wildfire principle” if you will.
As many people have pointed out, we’ve been through these meshugas before. I wasn’t around but for the very tail-end of the Kerry vs. Dean vs. Nader vs. everybody fights, but I understand they got pretty bad. There were the Shut Your Fucking Piehole diaries, the rolling recriminations after the November elections, Schiavo, NARAL, the Pope, the Pastor Dan diaries. Let me know which ones I’ve missed, and I’ll add them to the list. We need to keep track of them for the sake of site history.
I’m not very interested in rehashing any of these debates. Most of them were silly, and needless.
Needless, that is, in the sense that they got misdirected into personal territory. Once the insults–real or perceived–start flying, the useful discussion comes to an end. The underlying perspectives were often valid, and I for one learned much from them.
It’s also true that conflict is a normal part of life together. People build up friction whenever they rub elbows; it happens in virtual communities just like in meatspace. When the friction goes away, you’ve got real problems, because it means that people have stopped taking one another seriously, stopped talking to one another.
In this sense, then, the opposite of conflict is not so much peace (the absence of conflict), as it is reconciliation, a productive balance that allows the creative sparks to fly all over again.
As Paul notes in his letter to the Romans, reconciliation is something hard-won:
…We also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us…
For Paul, of course, the process of reconciliation begins and ends in Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross. It’s that sacrifice that reconciles us with God the Father, and that allows us to be reconciled one to another.
But you need not be a Christian to find the insight here. Follow the chain in slightly different terms: we can be proud of the conflicts we’ve been through, because conflict makes us stronger, and that strength forges a common identity, and the common identity enables us to believe that we are doing will make a difference in the long run. And that will indeed not disappoint us, because we are making a difference, if only in how we are changing ourselves.
It works for the grizzled veterans who stick with the community: Well, I was here when we went after one another tooth-and-nail over Ginger and Maryann, and here’s what we learned… But interestingly enough, it also works for the folks who have left. Many of them have ended up together in new communities (this time, here at Booman or Women Kossacks), and their departure is suffering enough to create a common identity.
Can the various parties be reconciled to one another? I don’t know. It might take some kind of divine intervention. The online communities I’ve taken part in have a tendency to attract strong personalities with stronger opinions.
We’ll see.
But here’s something that I hope all sides can take away from this. It’s the end of Paul’s chain of logic: “hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that was given to us.”
I’ll leave it up to you to decide if it’s necessary to have the Holy Spirit to receive God’s love. My point is simply this: that hope doesn’t arrive from hurt and anger and conflict. Not by themselves.
Instead, it comes about by the way in which those things remind us of the attachments that motivate us, and lead us to new ones. If the Pie Fights lead us to understand better who and what we love, and why we fight for them, if the conflicts and the crazy-making we go through widen the circle of our compassion, then as idiotic as they may seem, they will have been worthwhile.
Amen, and pass the lemon meringue.
It’s my first Sunday here, and it would have been incredibly … odd to not have this be part of my day.
And thanks for coming (and reading!).
…as I wait for the spouse to dress and shave for church this morning:
Actually, since I believe that we all have God’s love, we all have the Holy Spirit (what someone referred to as the Spirit of Love…wish I could remember where I read that). The key is recognizing and acknowledging that we have that Spirit, and deciding what to do with it…do we use it for good or for evil?
Last night on the news, there were alleged “Christians” using that power for evil, telling fellow human beings that God hates them solely because they are gay:
“Strip away their titles, and those churches are all talking about the same big lie,” Phelps-Roper said, “that God loves anyone.”
These people have turned the Spirit of Love into the spirit of hate…and, with Jesus, I weep…
I’m probably not of the proper frame of mind to receive Eucharist…but that probably means I need it more than ever.
See you this afternoon…
PastorDan, I know you mean well, and I am not trying to pick a fight, believe me! However, your remarks reflect a lack of understanding on your part, in my opinion. First, you make the SCLM error of addressing all parties as if they have been equally egregious, and as if they have perspectives that are equally good, right, or true. I have not counted up the hostile attacks that came from the extremes on both sides of the issue, but I have to say that I highly suspect that there was vastly MORE hostility on one side. Also, this was not a fight that simply degenerated into name-calling on both sides. It reflected deep sexism at dKos, the Democratic Party, and on the left in general. It was a long time coming. Women and allies who argued that sexism exists in the hearts and minds of many Kossacks, Democrats, and liberals were more right about that than those who argued otherwise. So, when you suggest that everyone was equivalent, I have to wonder if you get the point.
I know I sound like a broken record, but I have taken a personal vow not to let these things go unspoken anymore. Of course we all want to get past the conflict, but we have at least two ways to go: we can sweep over the disease (sexism and masculine domination) and control the symptoms (hurt feelings and mean words), or we can try to cure the illness. I want to see a CURE! It’s much harder work, especially for those who believe they benefit from the status quo (and this includes women), but it ought to be done.
Thanks…
my philosophy anyway. i missed most of the pie wars.
however, i hope that people (the dismissive ones)
will learn not to be dismissive.
never heard real world referred to as meatspace. lol
I don’t know about that. Certainly Nietzsche thought so, but he also thought Christianity was a despicable religion, the religion of human sheep.
By that logic, if I get hit by a train and live, I should be stronger–but I doubt I’d be stronger even if the docs somehow managed to knit together all my shattered bones.
Challenge makes us grow stronger.
But what use is growing stronger, if we keep fighting the current and drifting further down the river.
Sometimes rather than fight the current, one can grow stronger by finding a calm pool, and use that strength for other, more lasting pursuits.
I take exception to your entire line of reasoning, which is that both sides were more or less equal (“I thought everybody had good points”) and that both sides were equally culpable in the bitter arguments that ensued (“I think those points got overplayed on all sides.”) And yet you say you have “no opinion” on the controversy?
Actually, you do have an opinion, and you just stated it–that both sides share equally in the responsibility for the bitter fight. I don’t agree with that at all. What I saw was the flames being fanned by a very nasty, hostile front diary post by Kos himself, and followed up by equally nasty, hostile posts by his supporters (most of them male), telling women and men who were upset with the pie ad and/or with Kos’ insulting response to those who privately emailed their concerns to him, to “shut the fuck up”. Yes, I saw that phrase more than once.
And if you’re “not interested in rehashing these debates”, why, pray tell, did you bring it up? You don’t have a solution (other than suggesting divine intervention) and you’re not interested in exploring the issues underlying the controversy, so the point of this diary is _______ ?
As a boy, I was taught that in order for people who have been in conflict to come together, those who were wrong must apologise to those who were wronged. This is not a religious point of view per se but rather a fundamental fact of human psychology. In order to grant forgiveness for a wrong done, forgiveness must be sincerely requested by the wrongdoers. And no, not everybody shares equal guilt in that “pie fight” conflict–those who did the insulting (such as Kos) need to sincerely apologise, and take actions that show that they recognise their mistake and are willing to atone for it.
Kos, apologise? To anybody? To quote John Wayne, That’ll be the day.
And therein you have the problem.
Shadowtheif I liked everything you said EXCEPT for this
I am still annoyed over the misogyny, but eventually I will forgive and while it would have happened more quickly if kos had made an apology, saying in effect “I’m not really like that”, I still will forgive him eventually.
Think of this. If you stay mad at someone and they never say their sorry, who wins? The jerk does, because your world is a little bit suckier for having that anger in it.
Pastor Dan, you know how feminists feel about Paul. Why Paul.
On this, we shall never agree.
The Germans have atoned AS A NATION (and continue to atone) for what was done during the Holocaust–not only to Jews but to millions of others.
The Japanese, on the other hand, have shown little recognition of the atrocities they committed against neighbouring Asian nations, with the consequence that China, Korea, and many other nations in Asia still have bitter feelings towards Japan.
While what happened on the “pie fight” diary was a far cry from the magnitude of the rapacities I have just recited, the principle is the same.
Maybe saints can forgive those who have never repented, but few people are saints. Let’s be honest about this; human resentment and hatred are strong emotions, and can only be overcome if the offending party or parties make sincere gestures of reconciliation.
I’m willing to go back to Kos today if he apologises and announces a change in policy–in other words, has a change of heart and backs it up with his deeds as well as words.
But penguins will skate in hell before that happens. Kos won’t apologise because he thinks he did and said nothing wrong. And besides, Booman has given me a comfy chair here–my diary on the Republicans storming out of the Patriot Act hearings is STILL visible and being read after nearly two days here, whereas on Kos it would’ve disappeared like a soap bubble.
No,no. I don’t mean go back. I don’t mean that at all. But the reasons you stay away shouldn’t be anger. Very simply he is not trust worthy.
Nor anybody else at DKos.
I merely do not wish to contribute free content to a website where the proprietor exhibits such flagrant contempt for the opinions and feelings of a good number of his contributors (many of them in far better standing than I) and where MANY other contributors (most of them male) also express contempt and disgust for women’s opinions and feelings.
Not only that, but Kos ASKED us to go–or has everyone forgotten that? He said:
Me, I’ll focus on the important shit.
That’s what’s called an “unvitation” on “Seinfeld”–don’t let the door hit you on the arse on the way out, Jack, etc.
When the proprietor tells you in no uncertain terms to go, and that he sure as hell won’t miss you, why stay? Read between the lines–he’s also saying “I’m alright, Jack” and “Me? Change? Why would I do that?”
No, I don’t trust Kos nor anybody who took his side in the “pie fight”–because they’ve done it before and they’ll do it again.
As for me–I don’t need that shit.
and as Dr. Phil says…if they’ll do it with ya, they’ll do it to ya.
Ohhh, my thought as well when I saw . . . Paul! quoted in this context. Ohhhhh.
Well, I will take this diary as well-meant, and I appreciate that the good pastor, as he says, is on a learning curve on these issues . . . so I will go take comfort in Cady Stanton’s Woman’s Bible.:-)
This is what I try to focus on when I think of the situation, maybe it will help. Everyone has prejudices. No one should ever place me in charge of a home for white south african men. No one should let me serve food at Priest get away. But I KNOW that about myself and I would choose to avoid situations where my prejudice would cause harm.
Kos and the lost boys don’t like women. The difference is that they underestimate the power of their own prejudice and don’t take responsibility for it. The ethical thing for him to do, given his weakness in this area, would be to run a guy only site, but he didn’t. Mark it up to immaturity and leave it at that.
Also, many people here and among the women kossaks have said that they saw signs, but ignored them. What they are really saying is “I knew I was following a bozo and ignored it.” In other words they are mad at themselves. If you are one of these, don’t be mad at yourself. Everyone gets conned now and then. Everyone.
It works for the grizzled veterans who stick with the community
It is no longer a ‘community’, at least not for women with a trace of personal dignity or men with some degree of decency. It’s just a tool which will over time be increasingly less useful. Communities and coalitions don’t stand by while individual members are savaged on the most personal and private levels. And viable blogs claiming to represent Democrats don’t ask those most targeted by the religious right to find another blog while their shock troops are mocking, ridiculing and calling them things like “menstruating she-devils”
It wasn’t about the ad, not most of it and not for most of us. (not that I have any criticism towards those women objecting to the ad) The ad didn’t offend most, but the responses to the ad and the politics behind those responses leave this ‘grizzled old veteran’ abundantly aware of the need to apologise to everyone concerned with decent treatment for all people for my past support of DKos and to freely admit that I was a complete fool to ever think that some sort of mutually respectful coalition could have been forged in that environment.
the Pastor Dan diaries
Um…you mean the “Pastor John” diaries. Right?
We white progressives from the South understand what it means to be a repentant racist. What we learned then, and what Dr. King called us to, was the realization that repentance brings reconciliation. Now here’s the dirty little secret. Repentance of racism is not a one-time thing; it’s a struggle against one’s cultural upbringing that lasts a lifetime. Despite one’s commitments and despite the fact that the more you work on it the easier it gets and despite being raised by relatively unprejudiced parents, I still have moments in which I am shocked with my own racism.
And so it is with my repentant sexism, as my daughters well know.
And so it is with my repentant homophobia, for I went to junior high school too.
And my repentant Christian bigotry; after all, I was raised in a Southern mainstream church.
And my repentant American bigotry, at least one of the residues of the Cold War and Vietnam.
It is clear to me that Ginger and MaryAnne are as offensive to lots of women as the 1920s minstrel cartoons were to blacks.
It is also clear to me that many men respond to women’s complaints as just censorship, political correctness, and prudishness. I disagree, but I do see the potential for all of these as do those women who have opined that this is not big deal.
It is clear to me that Time-Warner loved the attention, being a media corporation that on the one hand reduces sexuality to wink-wink and on the other has pundits bloviating about the coarseness of our culture.
This is a big deal, just not in the way the antagonists have framed it. For us men, it is another opportunity to repent of the ingrained sexism in our culture, in no ways different than how we would react to those minstrel show cartoons or the Rev. Phelps’s cross-country “God hates fags”, er, ministry.
But what we ask of women is reconciliation, just as we whites ask for reconciliation from blacks, just as we heterosexuals ask for reconcilation from gays, just as we American seek reconciliation with the people of the world, just as we Christians among you seek reconciliation with those who practice other religions or have none at all.
The issue is not sexuality, not censorship; it is about advertising that frames women in a certain way. Guess what, most women I know don’t fit those stereotypes, don’t appreciate the fact that these stereotype exist any more than blacks appreciate those 1920s cartoons, and would like for them to go away. And oh yes, in the 1960s, white Southerners used to say about those minstrel cartoons, “They’re all in fun. What’s the big deal?”
As progressives, as Democrats, as human beings, we need to confront this issue, work it through to unity and get it out of the way. The rest of the world is depending mightily upon us.
Well, there’s reconciliation and there’s reconciliation.
I’ve felt re-connected and reconciled to myself this week. “Oh, right! Duh! I’m a person who doesn’t want to give tacit approval to denigrations of women by remaining part of a group where that happens a lot.” “And, sheesh, I’m a person who doesn’t thrive in a loud, agressive, insulting environment. What was I thinking to stay there?”
There’s also the matter of sacrifice that Paul talks about in your Bible verse. Sometimes we make sacrifices for the greater good. I think that’s a privilege. I think a lot of people who left dK felt like they were losing something they loved, but they had to give it up for the sake of all sorts of other good things. And now the water is roiled, but then Christ’s friends and enemies were pretty upset for a while after he left, too. That’s not to paint anybody in this whole situation as saints! god knows, just to say that peace doesn’t necessarily follow right on the heels of sacrifice, and that’s apparently okay.
Since this diary is built around a quote from the Book of Romans, perhaps it is appropriate to insert other quotes.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., often quoted Mark 9:35, the scripture in which Jesus of Nazareth tells James and John “…whosoever will be great among you shall be your servant; and whosoever among you will be the first shall be the servant of all.”
Spiderman’s uncle said it another way: “Great power means great responsibility.” Ahem.
And Dr. King also said: “True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice.”
(Stride Toward Freedom, 1958)
“Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be, and you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the iterrelated structure of reality.” (Strength to Love, 1963)
Thanks so much for those, Shadowthief. Spiderman’s uncle made me laugh, The one about “true peace” from Dr. King made go, “yes!”
Look what I took for my sig line, Shadowthief, thank you very much.
Thank Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
And Ben Parker (Spiderman’s uncle).
oh, how I took that comic to heart when I was young. Sums up the whole thing so well, doesn’t it?
looking for reconciliation might want to check out:
The Forgiveness Project
Wow, that looks cool. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.
Shadowthief had similar thoughts, but let me try it my way.
I forgive the Japanese for Pearl Harbor.
That doesn’t mean I pretend Pearl Harbor didn’t happen, nor that it was unimportant, nor that the atrocities that happened on both sides of that war excuse Pearl Harbor.
That’s revisionism. I utterly reject revisionism.
I own up to the truth.
I recognize Japan’s imperial ambitions. I recognize the viciousness of the war. The Rape of Nanking, and my own grandfather’s stories of “jap heads” piked on the US ships. I recognize his racism, and the reasons he developed it.
I reject them all. I don’t internalize any of them, personally. I don’t let them color my judgement.
I recognize which ones are history, and which ones are still present.
I forgive the past sins, and lament the current ones.
But…
I never, ever, pretend things didn’t happen, nor downplay the significance of those that have.
I see folks who have an agenda for “restoring relations”. I don’t begrudge them that at all. I can dislike and disagree with many of those I’m aligned with. I demand no purity.
But who I self-identify with is a matter of my conscience.
And it find it incredibly insulting for people to insinuate that until I “forgive” history, especially history I find very revisionist and dishonest, that I’ll be diminished.
No. I reject that.
I have forgiven, and continue to forgive. I wish no ill-will on those I disagree with.
But these pleas based on misinformation and (intentional?) misreading of history really irk me. They’re condescending, and insulting.
Any ‘ill will’ I have is not related to the past events that have triggered this. Its toward these misguided attempts to “heal”, committing new sins in the process.
I was 12 when I went to my minister for help. He told me I had to forgive the uncle who was sexually abusing me. He said I needed to pray for forgiveness for flaunting my body and acting in seductive ways. He said Jesus would help me, if only I’d let him into my heart. Then he prayed: for me to become a better Christian.
Now you tell me I should choose to stay engaged in what you see as just a “meshuga” or simple conflict gone out of control. Sure feels like more than that to me, and to many other women who were there and no longer are.
Have you really really listened to those of us, especially us older women who actually lived our lives the way it was before? We’ve been writing, Pastor Dan, trying to tell others where this kind of disrespect and dismissal of women can lead us.
With all due respect, Pastor Dan, you have a whole lot to learn about how life was for women, and why we are raising the alarms again now. Or how it feels to me hear again, a man of God, with very best of intentions, I know, dismiss my reaction by comparing this to a simple community conflict, and suggesting “reconciliation”.
I’ve always wondered how Pauls perspective may have been different, if he had been born a female. I’ve wondered that about a lot of the men who wrote the Bible and the men who have interpreted it for me all my life.
You write: “My point is simply this: that hope doesn’t arrive from hurt and anger and conflict.”
Neither does healing, Pastor Dan, unless those who cause harm to others, whether intentional OR unintentional, are willing take responsibility for doing so.
Working for reconciliation with those who choose not to listen or change is not a good use of my remaining energy anymore. I’ve finally freed myself from the the church-taught concept that in order to be worthy of Gods love, I need to embrace endless self sacrifice and service to other’s, at any cost to myself, and to forgive and reconcile with all who would cause me harm, whether it stops, or not.
My faith tells me something else now. It tells me I serve no one when I sacrifice my self or my beliefs or my sanity, and allow myself to be diminished by others. It tells me to celebrate whatever potential I have within, to nurture it, and to share it in ways that empower and nurture others.
And it tells me I have the right to choose where and how I do that.
I believe that had you been my minister back then, you wouldn’t have sent me back home to more years of the same. And you are he first Christian Pastor I have even able to read and enjoy reading, in years. I appreciate you intent here, even given the above. I only hope that this post has given you some food for thought as well.
It’s funny, but I’ve yet to find anybody discussing “reconciliation” on DKos–at least, not the people who conjured up this shit-storm in the first place.
Reconciliation starts with Markos Moulitsa looking into himself and saying, “What role did I have in this? Is it just possible that some of what the disgruntled people said really IS true?”
You know, soul-searching.
Mr. Moulitsa is a graduate of Boston University School of Law…a husband…a father…a military veteran…and 34 years old. Now, if a well-educated, middle-aged husband and father does not grasp that maybe, just maybe, having several hundred people all lodge the same complaint against you MIGHT be indicator that you have said or done something wrong, well, then, is it MY job to teach him that?
No. The “work” here must be started by Mr. Moulitsa, and he has shown absolutely no indication that he sees any need to reach out to those who are disaffected.
What’s more, Moulitsa’s right-hand man..his “apostle Paul” so to speak, a bloke going by the name of “Armando”, has declared “war” (his term, not mine) on anyone who has criticised Mr. Moulitsa or the DKos site in relation to the “pie fight” incident.
The other side is waging war, continuing their misogynistic jihad. Please do not tell me to engage them in acts of reconciliation; they would interpret any such gestures (quite rightly) as contemptible acts of weaklings. The side that has done the wrong must first acknowledge its wrongs, then set about righting them.
And I’ll be right here, waiting for them to do it.
Armando has an olive branch diary that i stupidly fell for and then got bitchslapped followed by the DH circle-jerk diary with full KY (sorry pastordan) on how to be a good obedient little right-wing Dem (or else) and topped off with Markos’ main page abortion screed. If anyone doesn’t see this as the total orchestration that it is, i’ve got some lovely oasis-front property in Tikrit you might like π
oh how i miss the women/gays/liberals who have been pushed out, it’s lonely there these days.
If anyone doesn’t see this as the total orchestration that it is, i’ve got some lovely oasis-front property in Tikrit you might like π
We were posting the same idea at the same time, Wilfred. It’s so obvious that the right-wing blogs are commenting on it.
I miss them too. Auntie Peachie’s here:) And I’m going to be spending a lot more time at LSF and here and… The thing is, well, they shouldn’t have done that and the manner in which they did it is beneath contempt and I think they should be held accountable.
thanks colleen, i went to dinner tonight and my friend who runs a big blog told me that the word on the right-wing blogs this week is that it is a total shakeout at Dkos, the liberal/gay/women or as Markos calls them again tonight ‘the single issue’ people. For all who need a wake-up call, that is their new code word for UNDESIRABLES.
I’m being told to ‘get with the program’ but i’ve seen that program reflected in Rove’s eyes and I’d prefer to think for myself, thank you.
I’m being told to ‘get with the program’
Yesm, well when they do that this far out it’s been my experience that ‘gettng with the program’ involves a strategy which is repugnant in the extreme. I think not.
but i’ve seen that program reflected in Rove’s eyes and I’d prefer to think for myself, thank you.
Indeed.
It’s funny, but I’ve yet to find anybody discussing “reconciliation” on DKos–at least, not the people who conjured up this shit-storm in the first place.
That’s because the folks who exacerbated the shitstorm did so deliberately. It was a purge. Right now Kos is testing the success of the fumigation with a ‘values’ thread and another slam on abortion rights supporters.
What PD fails to understand is that Kos wants us off his blog or he wants us compliant.
The blog is going to be supporting every socially conservative white Catholic male with firm ideas about the proper role of women the dems run and they’re going to be running a lot of them.
Pro-choice Democrats were expendable and the ones who are left are going to be having a terrible time of it.
Thus my apology for working so hard to make DKos a success. I need a shower. I’ve been so stupid
on reconciliation:
abusers and enablers first.
And by the way Pastor Dan, i’m with Bishop Spong on Paul, my gut tells me he was a self-loathing gay man.
And that’s not all.
I ventured back onto Kos to call them on their hypocrisy and a certain person who’s posted here–I don’t want to use any real names so let’s call him “RedDan” for argument’s sake–immediately swooped down and said, “What are YOU doing here?”
The DKossacks who ran people off don’t want us back there. Reconciliation my British arse.
Oh, i saw that one, was it on the ‘single issue’ means undesireable thread? yeah, i saw the welcome back- now let’s harrass you-please go away. All are NOT welcome in that house.