Went to dinner last night with some friends (my wife’s, but I had viewed them as “ours” for a few years now) and ended up talking a little about the two big no-nos, politics and religion. They are very religious individuals, and I honestly respect that. I’m not sure that respect registered well with them–and I doubt we’ll be going out with them in future. Not because I don’t want to, but I think I pissed them off. I’d like to share a few of their key points with you (somewhat paraphrased), and see what you think.
“You have to have faith.” I understand. Faith is the key to being able to let go, and I do not possess the type of faith they are talking about. I wish that I did–I envy their faith. There has to be great peace in knowing that God has a plan and is in control, that you can take the precepts of the Catholic faith as gospel and wash your hands of any thinking. “Let go and let God.” It must be comforting to look at the hot-button issues in today’s world and be absolutely certain that your personal stance on them–as dictated to you by your church and clergy–are correct. To feel vindicated of any responsibility when you take that Catholic voter’s guide into the polling station with you, sure that you are doing the right/holy/moral thing by selecting the candidates they’ve chosen for you. It must be great to know that the head of the church is in fact infallible (at least on issues of morality, as it was explained to me).
“You have to accept Christ as your personal savior to be saved.” I’m sorry, but I cannot accept that all the Jews, Buddhists, Islamites, homosexuals, divorcees (caveat on this one, if you pay for an annulment all is well with the divorced), those who had abortions, etc. are going to hell. If that is true, it sounds like heaven is a pretty exclusive club to me. I know too many people in those groups that are good, loving, honest people for me to grant blanket acceptance to a religion that writes them off. I can’t do it–or maybe it would be more accurate to say that I won’t do it. I if have to choose a heaven full of only those who fully accept the Christian dogma, I’ll take hell–and I expect the company would be better.
“It sounds like you want to be in control, when you need to let God be in control.” It’s not that I have a problem with God being in control. I have a problem with a religion being in control. Each “religion” is basically a version of what most of us believe to be God’s will as filtered through human beings. The basic tenants of almost all earthly religions are nearly identical. Human beings are fallible, and therefore I question. God made us curious, and I don’t believe that that curiosity was instilled in us just to tempt us, I believe it is a part of us because God wants us to think, to apply our intellect, to make informed choices. To avoid being led by the nose.
“You’re not a Catholic.” Please understand, I consider myself a Catholic, and by and large I believe in the Catholic Church. I was raised Catholic, did Catechism on Wednesday nights. Did the whole alter boy thing. Married in the church, and my school-aged children attend parochial school. Does it make sense to demand blind faith of your parishioners? What about the fact that all religions change their stance/interpretations on a semi-regular basis?
This conversation could well have been with people who choose to believe in any number of religions. I actually find the Catholic Church to be more tolerant of other (Christian) religions than most. The Baptists I came into contact with while I lived in Alabama felt the need to convert the Catholics, lest they go to hell. The Christian Reformed Church (prevalent here in west MI) seems to feel pretty much the same. At least the Catholics have room in their heaven for anyone who “…has ever heard the name of Christ and accepted him as their savior.” That stance is their out for those to young to understand and those savages that the world is so full of who have never actually heard the word.
I will not embrace intolerance in any church. For many years I have said that I feel absolutely sure of only two things: Humans are not the most intelligent beings (whether that means there is a God, aliens, both, whatever) and that none of the earthly religions have it completely right. Everything else, in my mind, I am unsure of–and I’m even willing to debate those two.
I think we should be shopping at the Cafeteria no matter what the issue–politics, religion, whatever. The underlying assumption with a statement like “Cafeteria Catholic” is that you go up to the counter and only select items that appeal to you. That behavior is not what I’m purporting. In these instances we need to go to the counter and look closely at all the items for sale, inspect them, check the list of ingredients, see who prepared them, check the expiration date. Compare what you find with the food you’ve chosen at other lunch counters in your life, and then make your selections based the empirical evidence you’ve gathered.
I’m sure I’ll never feel as confident and comfortable with my decisions as those who have “true faith”, who put their decisions in the hands of others. But is that a bad thing? Bottom line, as always, is this: Am I shortchanging my children by not teaching them to blindly follow any authority figure/organization? What do you think?
In other words, are you shortchanging your children by teaching them to think for themselves?
Hell no!
I refuse to believe that there’s a perverse god lurking about somewhere who created us all with brains that he expects us not to use. If we were meant to be sheep, we’d all be covered in wool (and none of us would have the brains to object when the wool is being pulled over our eyes).
But then, I’m not a Christian, so I can’t really answer from inside that framework.
me a little–I’d be lying to say it doesn’t. Its not that I don’t believe in God/a higher power, I just have trouble swallowing the inconsistent points that each of the earthly religions insist upon. I’m not talking about unsupported points (though I have trouble with those too) but the truly….”inconsistent” ones. Like virgin birth, the Garden of Eden, papal infallibility, etc. etc. in a literal sense. Does the existence of God, or even of Christ, preclude evolution? Do we have to believe that the Pope speaks Gods words to us directly to be saved? Is the King James version of the Bible the only one that counts? I was taught to question, to gather empirical evidence and decide for myself, along with my Catholic upbringing. Why must critical thinking and religious beliefs be polar opposites?
The greatly oversimplified answer is that religion is a collection of myths designed to help us make some connection with the incomprehensible. To take the myths literally is to focus on the finger pointing at the moon rather than the moon itself.
I’m a Pagan, but that doesn’t mean I believe in the physical existence of a whole bunch of different gods and goddesses frolicking around and messing with my life. It means that when I want to try to make some connection with the divine, or the collective unconscious, or the Great Whatever, it’s easier to conjure up and talk to a mental image of a particular god/ess.
As for the King James Bible, if that’s the one and only, I imagine that the people who originally wrote the text in Greek and Hebrew are pretty much pissed.
I have zero problem with how you go about your personal relationship with “God”, and I don’t think you have any less a chance at whatever afterlife might be out there. I don’t want to be closed minded or dismissive of other people’s beliefs or points of view, I don’t want other people to be that way with me, and I certainly don’t want my kids to be that way. So I struggle.
And the KJV issue–the whole thing is really pretty sad. I mean, different bibles compiled by different groups contain completely different books, for goodness sakes. And like we can absolutely decipher Aramaic, anyway. This one isn’t a Catholic issue, by the way, but boy, if you don’t go to the KJV as the source with some people, they won’t even discuss it with you. Just as true for other versions.
and if you can’t then read one of the more modern versions. The KJV sucks and is inaccurate. Ask Erasmus or Martin Luther.
I’m not arguing accuracy–and my impression is that the KJV isn’t all that accurate, from what I’ve read. My main point with versions and individual interpretations is that none of them will ever be completely accurate, so insisting on literal/wording specific interpretations is…well, counterproductive, shall we say. Focusing on the overall message is more productive, and I think was the intent of putting pen to paper in the first place.
you really should read a biography of Martin Luther. Your feelings of angst were magnified 1000 times in that man.
When he got done thinking about God and the world and salvation he said, “The world is a wide asshole and I am a ripe shit.”
That pretty much clears it up as far as debating angels dancing on a pin.
Catholicism has always struggled with the question of how much control the hierarchy should have. Some think that the Pope should be viewed as a dictator, while others–good Catholics–disagree.
My take, as an outsider, is that anything short of what gets you excommunicated is within the range of “still can call oneself a Catholic.” If they kick you out, you’re out. Otherwise, you’re in.
Well, I can tell you that the reality of Catholocism in America today is pretty much “Try to be good and don’t screw up to badly.” Excommunication from the Catholic church, in my experience, is very uncommon, possibly to the point on non-existant. That may not be true accross the board, but in my experience it is. Its not that I’m afraid of getting kicked out, and its not just Catholicism I have a problem with–its the intolerance I see in pretty much all organized religion. That and the insistance on basing some of their basic tenants on things that are…well…mythological. I think that in general they are getting better–I know for a fact that the Catholic church is getting better, it has come a long way just since I was a kid. I am just really struggling with what I’m going to tell my kids when they come home from school spouting things that…well, that I don’t think a rational person should accept.
Here’s the thing: some of the most influencial people in my life are deeply religious. I’m talking about very good people, but very well educated people as well. They have rock-solid faith, and it comforts them–this isn’t a sham with them, it truly helps them live their lives–and they live them well. I admire, and to some extent, envey them. While I strongly believe what I believe, I worry that I will color my children’s judgement in this area, possibly steal from them the opportunity to experience life the way these people do.
Although my husband and I are not religious, our daughter went to a Catholic high school. This particular school had a population that was less than 25% Catholic, and had the advantage of being run by the Basilian Brothers, a very small and quite liberal order. I remember one of the fathers addressing an orientation meeting and explaining their approach to teaching religion (loosely paraphrased) to the slightly skeptical parents. “We want these kids to understand religion, to question religion, to be able to explain and defend their thinking, and to have a firm grasp of why they believe the things that they believe. We want each kid to leave our religion program being the best Jew, the best Presbyterian, the best Catholic, or the best atheist that he or she can be.”
I think faith is not something that is inherited or learned or unlearned, but that each of us has a certain capacity for faith almost hard-wired into us. For myself, that amount of faith is nil. Although I grew up in a family of very devout Baptists and I wanted desperately to believe in order to please my family, even as a very small child, I couldn’t help but think Christianity was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. I actually went through quite a lot of pain as a child, thinking that if I were just a better person, I would be able to believe this stuff. I closed my eyes, got down on my knees and prayed and prayed, and it all still seemed really stupid.
I guess I share this with you just to try to explain to you that you may have less power to influence your children in matters of faith than you imagine. But I don’t think that you will ever short-change your children by teaching them to think critically; indeed, I think it might be the most precious gift that you can give them.
I appreciate you sharing your experiences and insights. I guess that maybe I look at them now, 6, 4, and a toddler, (and 20, but that’s a different situation) and I see how they just ingest what I tell them–in most instances without questioning what I purport. I’m working on the questioning thing, but they are so impressionable at this time. I very much want to be a part of them forming their core values, and faith aside, I feel pretty confident about doing that. But when it comes to religion…
I guess I never considered the possibility that a capacity for faith might be underlying, somewhat beyond the boundaries of learning. Interesting.
Plenty of organized religion shows tolerance on social issues. The traditional mainline protestant churches were and are pretty tolerant. The intolerance comes from the hard-line Catholics and the conservative Christian right, which are now in a majority.
Some show a lot of tolerance, as you say. As I stated previously, the Catholic Church by and large is fairly decent about it, though some religions are certainly more progressive than the Catholics (while others are much less so). Why the clinging to the mystic, though? Why require belief in things that are so strongly…well, why buck science so much? Is it really necessary? And perhaps “require” is too strong a word–certainly much of what is taught as the “official stance” in many churches is actually watered down in practice.
(from a former Catholic)
There’s nothing wrong with being a “thinking Catholic”. If there weren’t any, the Crusades would still be going on. As for having doubts, even Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him at the end. Remember that your Catholic friends also have moments of serious doubts. If they don’t, they’re just not human.
We teach our children what we know and encourage and help them to seek out what we don’t know.
There was a sister’s writings I was going to point you to but I can’t remember her name right now. I’ll look it up. She’s a progressive, open-minded thinker who is still true to her faith. Perhaps seeking out that type of person will help you make some peace with yours. There are all kinds of Catholics – all kinds of religious people. You can be the type you choose to be and still be Catholic. I think that’s the reassurance you’re looking for. No one is perfect. According to Catholicism, if you were perfect you’d be God and that is not what Catholics aspire to. They aspire to be the best people they possibly can, recognizing that God forgives their human “failings”. I think if you teach your children that, they’ll be well on their way to living a purposeful and meaningful life.
“Sister Joan is also a regular columnist for the independent Catholic newspaper, THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER.”
Here’s an interview she did on PBS’s show NOW.
for the support and the link. I appreciate both a great deal.
You’re very welcome.