Markos of Daily Kos on the subject of antiwar protests:
“…my biggest problem with anti-war protests is that they’re obsolete. What do they accomplish? Historians still argue about the role Vietnam-era protests had on ending the war (shortened it versus prolonged it). But today, they mean nothing.”
So, what do they accomplish?
As David Greenberg, a teacher at Rutgers, wrote in Slate, March 2003:
“Protesting war isn’t some Vietnam-era relic, like love beads or Country Joe McDonald, but an American democratic tradition.”
Let’s look at that tradition.
Greenberg’s lengthy article, titled “Advise and Dissent: How anti-war protest movements have made the U.S. stronger” explores the roots of American antiwar protests and their effects on societal change:
Dissenters spoke out against virtually every subsequent conflict. The humiliating defeats of the War of 1812 made that fight so unpopular that the states of New England considered seceding from the Union. A generation later, many Americans viewed the Mexican-American War (not unreasonably) as an act of naked U.S. aggression. In 1848, shortly after the war’s conclusion, Congress censured President James Polk for “unnecessarily and unconstitutionally” commencing hostilities. Supporting the rebuke was Illinois Rep. Abraham Lincoln, who attacked Polk as “a bewildered, confounded and miserably perplexed man.”
Popular support for the Spanish-American War waned as the relatively easy fight for a free (i.e., pro-American) Cuba gave way to a more controversial program of wresting away Spain’s other colonies, particularly the Philippines. When President William McKinley opted to annex the Philippines–he wanted, he said, “to educate the Filipinos and uplift and Christianize them”–a motley array of critics from Andrew Carnegie to Mark Twain objected. William Jennings Bryan used his dissenting stance as the centerpiece of his (losing) 1900 presidential campaign.
During World War I, critics excoriated Woodrow Wilson–who had run for re-election in 1916 on the slogan “He kept us out of war”–for entangling America in a bloody European conflict. Political leaders from Wisconsin Sen. Robert LaFollette to Socialist Party presidential candidate Eugene V. Debs spoke out. (“I had supposed until recently that it was the duty of senators … to vote and act according to their convictions,” LaFollette sardonically told the Senate. “Quite another doctrine has recently been promulgated by certain newspapers … and that is the doctrine of ‘standing back of the president’ without inquiring whether the president is right or wrong.”) The majority of Congress, however, passed a series of repressive laws that let the government imprison or deport thousands of critics of the president, including Debs. Vigilante groups ostracized, assaulted, and even lynched countless more.
And, on Vietnam:
One can debate the effects of any antiwar protest but to claim, as Markos does, that today’s protests “mean nothing” is to ignore the value of all protest movements worldwide, throughout history.
Have we arrived in an era where public demonstrations of opposition are worthless? Tell that to the people of the Ukraine who launched their Orange Revolution to protest electoral fraud in 2004. Tell it to the protesters in Tiananmen Square. Tell that to those who marched in the US Civil Rights Movement. Tell that to anyone who has gathered with like-minded individuals to stand for peace and human rights anywhere in the world.
How do you measure the success of a protest march? Is it measured by the need for instant gratification that so pervades western society today? Is it measured by a sudden and abrupt end to the Iraq war? Is it measured by President Bush resigning? Is it measured by how many media cameras are present? Is it measured by how much coverage the big cable networks give it? I say no.
Success is measured in many ways and the subtle measures are perhaps the most powerful. Did the protest cause even one person to change their mind? Did the protest inform and educate? Did the protest display the importance of free speech in a democracy and the protection of such a valuable right that is threatened daily by those in power? Did the protest give voice to the passion of those who otherwise would have no outlet? Did the protest strengthen the community and groups involved to pursue more efforts in the struggle for their cause? Did the protest inspire thought and reconsideration of entrenched beliefs? Did the protest speak for the dead and suffering? Did the protest spread the message of the dire need for compassion in this world?
That is how we must measure success. Anything less is meaningless. Today’s protests do mean something. There is absolutely no doubt about that and don’t let anyone tell you that when 2 or more people gather together to raise their voices they are involved in something fruitless or futile. Only a defeatist with no faith in the collective voice would believe that. The collective voice has proven them wrong – for centuries.
I have not lost faith in that collective voice. I will never lose faith in that collective voice. To do so means defeat and I am certainly not ready to surrender.
I agree 200% with what you have said above, yes it does matter, and thanks for reminding us about the Ukraine, especially, what better example could we have of ‘how protests matter’.
Even if it was funded and planned by our country. Sigh.
to peacefully assemble.
instead of flog it and blog it,
use it,
or lose it.
http://fact.trib.com/1st.assemble.html
On October 14, 1774, the Declaration and Resolves of the First Contintental Congress declared, among a list of other demands,
“[t]hat the inhabitants of the English colonies in North-America, by the immutable laws of nature, the principles of the English consitution, and the several charters or compacts, have the following RIGHTS:
Resolved, N.C.D.8. That they have a right peaceably to assemble, consider their grievances, and petition the king; and that all prosecutions, prohibitory proclamations, and commitments for the same, are illegal.”
‘In De Jonge v. Oregon, 299 U.S. 353 (1937), the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the right to peaceably assemble “for lawful discussion, however unpopular the sponsorship, cannot be made a crime.” The decision appled the First Amendment right of peaceful assembly to the states through the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.’
They mattered to the Ukranians.
Maybe I misread the OP, but it seems as if there was some conflation between openly expressed dissent and protest marches. The former is obviously vital and necessary, and the more of it there is, the better. As for the latter, though, I really have to wonder.
Under some circumstances, I can see the value of protest marches. If you can mobilize a sufficiently large fraction of the population onto the streets, and keep them there, you are demonstrating the direct power of your movement – your ability to cause the status quo actual physical and economic pain. Union strikes are a perfect example of this – during a strike, a march demonstrates that the union has more power over the behavior of the employees than does the employer. If you can use a march to demonstrate that you are stronger than the state, or the company, or whatever it is that you are protesting, that you can organize more people than they can, that you can shut everything down if you choose to, than you can have an effect. Then they have to listen – or send in the riot police and beat the crap out of you.
How many people would that take in modern America? A lot. Millions, at least, all across the country. You’d probably want good chunks of the police or military marching on your side as well.
A small, poorly attended protest is a sign of weakness. In a lot of ways, I think they are counterproductive, in that they demonstrate not your strength, but your weakness. A protest of 100,000 people in Washington DC shows that your organization doesn’t have much power at all.
Maybe they’re fun for the participants, or build solidarity, or whatever. I don’t know. Maybe you can use them as a tool to get some media attention – but if that’s the point, than one would want to organize the whole event so that in every aspect it sends the same message. Will they change policy? No. You would need to demonstrate sufficient power to cause the targeted officials and representatives real pain for a protest march to force them to do anything, and 100,000 isn’t even the size of a single congressional district in some states. Will it persuade anyone? That depends on how you approach the issue. Persuasion is a very complicated process, which typically requires an initial connection of identification (they are just like me!), empathy (isn’t that just terrible!), or self-interest (if I supported them, look at all that stuff I’d get !). I do not think a march whose message was crafted by ANSWER would manage to connect with just about anybody.
A protest of 100,000 people in Washington DC shows that your organization doesn’t have much power at all.
As I said in my diary, it depends on how you measure power or success. Obviously, you set the bar extremely high.
Yeah, I suppose I do. In my opinion, it is inherent to the tactic. For marches to be effective, I really do think they need to be mass marches. 3% of the population is not enough. I think there are other tactics that are better suited to the level of support and mobilization which seem to be in existance at this time. Marching, at best, just makes us look weak.
Marching, at best, just makes us look weak.
How?
Did it make the people of Ukraine look weak? The protesters in Tiananmen?
I think there are other tactics that are better suited to the level of support and mobilization which seem to be in existance at this time.
What other tactics? How much notice have they received?
The protests in Tiananmen square, and in the Ukraine, were of a different order of magnitude.
The Tiananmen square protests were about the same size as the Washnigton march, 100,000 people or so. But every one of them was committing a crime just by being there. Furthermore, they stayed for a full month, and only left because the government massacared them. If China had anything approaching the freedom to assemble and the freedom to move about the country, it seems likely that they would have been much larger.
The protests in the Ukraine drew in over a million people, in a city of about 2.9 million people, in a country of about 49.5 million people. They were also sustained for about a month, at which point they won.
Another point that needs to be made in this context is that, as repressive and authoritarian regimes, both the Ukraine and China are dramatically weaker than the United States. Authoritarian regimes repress the freedom of speech, movement, and assembly because they know that if they do not, they will be thrown out of power. If you can get enough people together to defy the police and the army, you have a decent chance of defeating such a regime. That’s also why, I think, marches and protests were effective during the Civil Rights movement – you had the oppressed standing up and saying, en masse, that we will no longer be oppressed.
As for alternative tactics, I think one only needs to look at how the Republicans have done things over the past thirty years. Raise money. Organize on a door to door basis, county by county. Infiltrate the lowest levels of government, where very few are really paying attention. Use the powers made available by such minor victories to further the movement. Find people who are effective at these tasks, and give them a job, money to work with, and the volunteer support to do the job effectively.
I am sure that many of the people who marched in DC are already involved in these kinds of activities. I wonder how many of the professional protestors can say the same. I somehow doubt that the ANSWER folks are getting much done, aside from distributing stalinist newspapers and infiltrating student groups.
The Tiananmen square protests were about the same size as the Washnigton march, 100,000 people or so. But every one of them was committing a crime just by being there.
You just rebutted yourself there. You said the 100,000 in Washington weren’t enough to have an effect. So, according to your analysis, protests actually are effective 1) if they’re criminal and 2) if they are sustained over a long period of time. Basically, anything else is a waste of time? Ever hear of Rosa Parks on the bus?
That’s also why, I think, marches and protests were effective during the Civil Rights movement – you had the oppressed standing up and saying, en masse, that we will no longer be oppressed.
And you don’t see any comparable oppression today? Are you saying that Bushco is not one of these: ” Authoritarian regimes repress the freedom of speech, movement, and assembly because they know that if they do not, they will be thrown out of power.”?
On alternative tactics, you suggest raising money and focusing on the local level. That’s been going on since the dawn of time. In the words of Dr Phil, “how’s that workin’ for ya?” Why shouldn’t mass protests co-exist?
I somehow doubt that the ANSWER folks are getting much done, aside from distributing stalinist newspapers and infiltrating student groups.
Obviously, regardless of what you think of them, they did participate in organizing a protest that drew tens of thousands to Washington.
You failed to answer my question: how do protests make one look “weak”?
I suppose it depends on the kind of effect one is hoping for, which I realize I am setting really high, and the kind of protest, which I’m setting arbitrarily narrow.
A protest intended to force the entity being protested against to change its course of action needs to be really big, big enough that the power being demonstrated by the protesting group (in getting all those people out there and keeping them there) is equal to or greater than that of the group being protested. From this perspective, a one day protest of 100,000 people in Washington DC doesn’t mean all that much. From that perspective, it makes the movement look weak. “What? Is that the worst they can do? Why should I bothered by that? If that’s all the strength they have, why should I be afraid of them?” asks Bush. If you stage a strike and only half the members walk off the job, you’re screwed – the boss knows that you don’t have the power to keep everyone in line, to shut down the company completely, to make the employers feel enough pain to listen.
What it takes to have that effect differs in different circumstances. The United States is deeply entrenched, largely legitimate (as in, the Congress and the Presidency are respectable institutions even if the people in them are not), and very strong (lots of people who are willing to lay down their lives to protect it). It takes a LOT more to stand against it toe to toe than it took to stand up to the government of Ukraine, or the government of China. The Chinese were terrified that the protests in Tiananmen would spread to the countryside, and they knew that if they did, it would be revolution all over again. That’s why they shot the protesters – the government was weak, and it knew.
However, as numerous people have noted, protests can have other purposes. I will not contest their power as tools for energizing those already within a movement, and they can be effective public relations tools, run properly.
But in the end, I can’t really put much of a coherent argument forward on this point. As you’ve noticed, most of what I’ve said is bullshit, and between this discussion and one I’ve had on Kos today, I think I’ve more or less run out for the moment. I still don’t think protests really accomplish much, but what the hell do I know?
But in the end, I can’t really put much of a coherent argument forward on this point. As you’ve noticed, most of what I’ve said is bullshit, and between this discussion and one I’ve had on Kos today, I think I’ve more or less run out for the moment. I still don’t think protests really accomplish much, but what the hell do I know?
As long as that comes from a place of humility and not self-flagellation, I think you’re okay. 🙂
Love ya and hope you continue to feel better and heal.
You keep on writing. Your energy helps me.
then maybe the next strike will get three-quarters, or nine-tenths, to walk off.
“I think there are other tactics that are better suited to the level of support and mobilization which seem to be in existance at this time.”
What would those be?
The media would not have trimmed the half million people who were actually there to the hundred thousand that you quote.
And perhaps Amtrak would not have shut down.
A protest is not always like a battle, with a clear victory or defeat. Sometimes it is more like a sign: In this case, that America is about start slipping out of the Bushco regime’s control.
But what you have chosen to omit is the fact that there were hundreds of thousands more on street corners all across the country and in London too. And let’s take your point of “very small groups” showing up defeats or hurts the purpose. Umm, does that include the piddly turnout for the ProWar death squads? If it does our gathering compared to theirs is successful with that point alone. There are 4-1 Anti-war people in this country now if not more. Here in San Diego on the 24th there were 2500 protestors to the five or six Prodeath squad. They really looked foolish.
One could just as well ask why write a book. Nobody reads books anymore, they’re obsolete….
He’s angered and infuriated me a number of times with poorly thought out or perhaps even calculated posts – but never have I thought he was completely clueless. that one showed me a 25 year old kid in over his head and out of touch with any sense of world history…
and the whole makes us look weak thing here… I dunno….
lord knows all the LTE’s and flash animations have been sooooo successful.
I’m hearing a lot of people who participated and have been energized have created freindships and strong bonds – social capital – in ways that blogging and books and letters just can’t.
if it’s not your cup of tea fine…. but sheesh.
Good thing Lech Walensa didn’t get the marches are obsolete memo. Clearly he should have stuck to flash annimations…
The word “solidarity” defintely flashed through my mind today but it wasn’t Macromedia styled.
Is that Armchair “Progressive” Kos has probably never been to a protest in his life.
He has already stated it has been only in recent years he has become a Democrat. So I guess he has more “traditions” in common with College Republicans than with Democrats which is why he holds the same social views as Republicans… as for the Democratic base… he hasn’t a clue who they are.
he is also a new father in addition to being a young man. Parenting for the first time and the associated sleep deprivation are death for clear thinking.
Very true about the effects of sleep deprivation, but I thought his kid was 2 or 3 and isn’t he over 30? Also, he has a wife or SOMEone who keeps things fairly under control, no? Hasn’t he been traveling all over the place in the last six months?
Uh, not that I pay attention, but you’re right, and I think closer to 35.
Well then, I retract the sleep deprivation defense. Maybe he’s just an idiot.
Daily Kos is very conservative. Kos….his appeal is that he is so completely in step with the mainstream. He’s essientially prowar isn’t he? I think that’s why Juan Cole like him. Juan Coles latest is that he wants the ground troops out. But just most of them. Leave the air power in so they can stop uh civil war.
I think almost everybody there is against the war, including Kos.
The general characterization of Markos as pro-war is accurate. Although he has consistently opposed the Iraq occupation, he participated in Gulf War I and often enthuses about that effort as well as Afghanistan. He has said repeatedly that he is not “anti-war” in any general way, and his point of view seems to be that Iraq was simply one mistake among a generally happy history of exercises of American military power.
Needless to say, I disagree completely with his position. I believe there are justifiable cases for the use of the American military, but I think we have rarely met those criteria. Further, if one cannot call him or herself “anti-war” in a general way, then this atheist has no qualms about calling that person immoral.
“Protesting war isn’t some Vietnam-era relic, like love beads or Country Joe McDonald, but an American democratic tradition.”
Too bad it takes someone from Canada to remind some of us of our history.
Success is measured in many ways
Catnip, thank you for your thoughtful post that reminded me why we marched last week.
And thank you for marching on my behalf.
Catnip, my daughter went on the march too and just now I read her the second half of your diary here — she said “that just proves all the cool people live in Canada!”
The biggest lesson I learned from participating in protests in the 60’s and 70’s for everything from allowing the opposite sex in dorm rooms to Kent State was that those in power always believe that no one really cares unless they are confronted with the fact that some people care very much. Protests are often the only way to force the powerful to listen to the powerless.
I responded to Kos as follows (and was suprisingly well received, though Kos would never deign to respond to an average Joe like me).
Gotta Say
Kos,
Respectfully, you weren’t there, were you?
Because if you were, and you can honestly say, “what good is a thing like this” then I don’t think you are feeling at a human level.
It was a powerful experience to be a part of. And I think between 100,000 and 500,000 other people who were there feel something like the same thing I do this week. Fired up to a) stop the war, and b) punish the president for waging it.
I’ve never felt anything like that power hanging out on your blog. I love your blog, too. Great for ideas. For news. For informing people so that they can come together to try to do important things.
Could be a great tool for a leader to try to put an immediate stop to an unjust war, too. I suppose. If used to that end.
How many more have to die, civilians and soldiers, before you reach your personal level of “just can’t take it anymore.” We leave now. It is a mess. But, it will be a mess when we leave next year. Or in five years. Or in ten years. It is a mess. Time to stop wallowing in it.
I have to say that the money and effort and energy spent there was the best democratic thing I’ve seen in my life.
Wish you were there under the flag. Lots of strangers came up. They know about this space you’ve created. They smiled. Shouted out a part of your name. You’ve got some power. Use it well.
All I have to say on this matter of what works and what doesn’t is, if Kos’s approach is the only approach as he claims, then will someone please point me in the direction of all the democratic success that we should be seeing if we are to believe him in his claims? Because if I’m not mistaken, the republicans still hold the house, the senate, the oval office and are successfully stacking the supreme court with right wing idealogues who will strip away women’s human rights and will set this country back decades if not centuries. Show me the money.
To listen to Kos prattle about the importance of blogdom over protest. Yah! Look at the results blogs got Dean. And the Dems in general.
On another note, I wrote the above comment before checking dKos today. Do you still go there? Or did you ever? Anyway, the BooMan has written a pretty impressive diary that has rocketed to number one, calling Kos out for criticizing the anti-war efforts. Any your diary (and mine too, and Tracy’s and Janet’s) are all linked up on the top story. Guess BooMan was proud of his troops in D.C. It is a pretty good diary, and largely well received. Even drew Kos out into the debate.
I go there once in a while now but never comment anymore. I might as well throw myself into a pirahna infested swamp. It seems that a majority of posters over there fight just for the sake of fighting. I don’t have time for that shit. My son is 18 and, well…you know. I never get involved in these discussions of whether kos is relevant or not, but this time I was proud of Booman for doing what he asks us to do, which is if you have a problem with it, go over there and confront them with it. Having my diary linked with yours and Tracy’s and Janet’s was humbling enough, but to have Booman set it forth as an example of why protests are meaningful was an honor I would never expect. Then again, I’m still working on that taking compliments well thing :o)
Further, Kos’ approach of throwing away the rights of large groups (women) in the name of winning a few elections still leaves us with elected officials who will strip away women’s rights and set the country back decades or more, regardless of whether there is a D or an R behind their name. He is a fool if he thinks anti-choice Dems are going to magically vote pro-choice when elected. Hell, the Dems can’t even get it together to vote as a block on less contentious issues (bankruptcy, judicial nominations, etc). Why would they start with choice?
IMO, Kos’ approach may (and we could argue that it probably won’t) win the battle, but lose the war. I do know that his dismissive attitude has reaffirmed my commitment NOT to vote for Casey (or Santorum) next fall, if those are my choices. My attitude is, if you think an anti-choicer’s vote is more important than mine, try winning with thier votes alone, and good luck, because there are a lot of us that feel that way.
I’m not drifting to the left. The party is drifting to the right. At least if we listen to Kos, and follow his win at any cost attitude. (And I would be the first to argue, as you say, that it is not in fact a winning strategy — Just leaves us with two parties of very little difference — Repugs and Repugs-lite).
Hey, where is that diary? Did I miss it. The capper of the whole anti-war experience. 🙂
I think more people feel the way we do than the Dem party leadership wants to admit.
Re the diary, I have a few work commitments that have gotten in the way. By this weekend, I promise!
has the horse before the cart.
The GOAL is to make the world better, make our country better. Make the lives of ALL of us better, including the poor, disenfranchised, etc. Those are Democratic goals.
We elect Dems to achieve those goals. Electing Dems is not a goal in and of itself.
Because if we do not protest, maybe some day the Supreme Court might decide to appoint a President that truely lost an election as Commander in Chief. Because if we dont protest Congress might pass a law that takes away our Civil Rights through some Patriot Act, if we don’t protest we can have the rich pay no tax which will have to be made with raising the burden of the poor.
I contend that all of these things happened because we were to comfy at home blogging rather than being in the streets were we should have been since day one.
If protest does not matter because we wont be able to change the world, then blogging doesn’t matter because in itself that won’t change the world either.
But above all Protest matters because history proves that MOST ruthless governments were removed by constant protest.
So, let me say it clearly: Today we have Bush BECAUSE we failed to protest!
Forgot one more example : if you dont believew me go ask the survivors of Katrina : they protested loudly Bush’s inaction and they did call the attention of the rest of the country: PROTEST DOES WORK!
Yours are the best replies I have read. Cruz del sur is a very wise person. Thank you for saying this. It cuts right down to the truth of the matter.
Markos proves his irrelevance yet again. If it wasn’t for the Diaires that site would be nothing as the Front Page is worthless unless it’s a promoted Diary.
Protest in all it’s forms is one of the greatest things about America and all free countries. The fact that only 500K showed up is more a symptom of other things in America, like corporate control of the media than citizen disgust. People are getting royally pissed off and change will come. Soon that anger will triumph over media control and the protests will be louder and better attended and when they do both local and national protest will be catalysts for change as they have been before.
played a major role in how difficult it was for these yahoos to sell us this bullshit war. It wasn’t easy for them and they had to tell big lies, then they had to get the one credible soul they had on their team (Powell) to stand up in front of the whole world at the U.N. and tell tall tales before enough took the bait. We are in Iraq now and committed to it as much as we are there and people have died now. As Americans we want to make things right so even though we found out it was all lies we wanted to make the spilled blood worth it and it is hard, very hard….because people are dead all over the place! As for the civil disobedience, the Vietnam protesters have helped me enormously because they laid a ground work that I can follow and this nation still remembers them and that war. I never wanted to take their memory back there but Iraq needs to come to a close and REAL SOLUTIONS TO THE REAL PROBLEMS need the time and money (whatever we can scrape up after these bastards are done) focused on them. The anger and rage that was addressed by the Vietnam protests and civil disobedience opened the doorways also for this country to begin to understand what combat does to a human being’s soul…..killing hurts the killer and not just those who are killed. I am still a soldiers wife and I still live in reality and know that soldiers may have to kill to protect this nation, but we aren’t being protected by what is going on in Iraq. It’s hard enough for the average soldier over the course of a lifetime to deal with bringing death to a real enemy, I believe that process becomes impossible when the people killed weren’t an enemy at all and the “danger” was staged and those who were killed were innocent of bringing harm to us.
Well, if I had to choose between Country Joe and Kos, Joe would win hands down. I really don’t know why progressives continue to stroke Kos’s ego, but that’s just me.
Seriously, I can think of few things more powerful than people coming together. We can rent DVD’s, but many of us still go to movies to experience the event with others. Watching a sporting event in your own home is enhanced by the presence of a few friends, and pales compared to being in a stadium or arena with thousands of others.
Today, when so many of us shop on-line, study on-line, blog, etc, the act of coming together seems really important. It show a public level of commitment and makes people think about or discuss the subject at hand. The act of gathering together seems quite important to the human experience. An email message from a friend on your wedding day is nowhere the same as his/her being there. Sympathy cards can’t substitute for attendance at a funeral.
Sure protests, some vigils and sit ins are more or less well-organized and more or less well-attended. Cool, lets make them better. But even small groups can have impact. There is a group of anti-war senior citizens who hold a vigil outside the Federal Building in Chicago every Tuesday morning for an hour. They are there whether is is 90 or 15 degrees, raining, snowing. Have they stopped the war — not yet. But they have provided a courageous example and provide a mechanism to keep ideas alive and the conversation flowing. Sure they could be sitting in there dens writing on blogs, (and probably some of them do) but to demean efforts such as theirs seems a very inhumane thing to do.
We can all extrapolate online in blogdom until heaven freezes over and accomplish very little in the real world. The internet is not the real world, only a communication tool! It is the meeting of the minds and then the joining of the physical hands that changes the powers that be in the real world! I have met the minds right here. Now I go to join the hands!
Beautifully said.
I really don’t know why progressives continue to stroke Kos’s ego
The only ones stroking his ego are the ones being paid by Rosenbergs NDN… the rest are just stroking the community that once was on that blog.
I call this the eBay Effect.
.
IMHO why so many people stay with eBay is because they have built up their “ratings” in that community no shooting star
wants to start all over again at zero
However, the arbitrary purges based on what the DLC whispered in Kos’s ear that day has sullied the blogs credibility.
I have never eBayed, but I think I understand. It is hard to give up something you have worked for. And, of course, any sort of change tends to paralyze a lot of people.
Exactly, it can take years to build up your rating… which is not simple task. And you build it up by other people rating your buying or selling professionalism. But, the difference is eBay sets a FAIR STANDARD which Kos does not… at first people were loyal to Kos but know that he has destroy this standard most really couldn’t give a shit about him and go there for the diaries. Someone just wrote if there were no diaries and just the FP crap then DK would be nothing.
and suffers from the affliction most young people have – the only universe they know is what they grew up in. History may be stuffed in some cranny in their minds but it isn’t real unless you have the imagination to step into an era. That would take a huge focus and even then would limit the view to that era. He probably is younger than my kids (early 40’s). Everything he knows about that era is shadowy stuff about woodstock, pot, hippies and some scenes of the vets (led by Kerry) camping out in DC, Black Panther movements, civil rights protests and such from old news reels. He can’t really know how horrible the Jim Crow laws were because he wasn’t there. Vestiges of them still exist but now they are painted over even though pus and vileness still linger under the paint. He can’t know how women have made changes in society just in the last few decades. He is well read and smart but just a “kid” after all.
Terrible thought I just had – “I wish he would respect his elders!” (I never did when I was young either!)
Wise and patient and kind! I bet you have good kids!
But you know – even though my kids are exceptional in many ways – kids come as they are. I can’t believe in the blank slate theory. And mine have taught me more than I ever taught them.
Because they are empowering.
I’ve written letters, made calls, done campaigns… but nothing has ever created the surge of empowerment than marching till your legs ached, hollering till your voiced cracked and hugging and loving and meeting so many new friends…
I didn’t go for DailyKos. I didn’t go for CodePink. I went as just one single voice. Out of between 300K to 400K? (cripes we don’t even know the numbers but it doesn’t squash it.
I went for my kids. I went for our country.
We need more action.
Bush asks this country to pray. And as we all know prayer without action is useless.
Writing, campaings, hell blogging isn’t shit – without ACTION.
There is a BoomanTribune action cmte in the works via email to offer up information about upcoming actions… and you’ll find SUPPORT… EMPOWERMENT and ENCOURAGEMENT.
Support, Empowerment and Encouragement… it isn’t useless or unrealistic.
We need ideas, not slaps in the face.
Kos bickering won’t get us where we want to be… and for many of us – that means back on the streets.
So let’s get busy. We’ve got work to do.
Thank you Booman for placing our diaries up as proof that we mattered. I went from feeling sick to my stomach yesterday at being bitch slapped to feeling honored to be in a group of such fine…. ACTIVISTS and PEACE MARCHERS!
Me! I’m with you sis and ready to go! You start from your side of the nation and I’ll start with mine. Meet you in… shoot, the midwest?
and take the South. They’ll just love my boots down here.
Damnit Ryan??? Hoo dat hoo say dey from duh Damnit clan?
He will come. — The Voice, Field of Dreams.
Welcome Ryan. See. Marches matter. A new Tribber. Yeah!
I hope you all know how much D.C. meant to me. I’m so grateful for meeting each and everyone of you. Boston Joe-the instant favorite, Steve D-reserved sincerity, Supersoling-man of Gondor, Rob-activist and activity director, Tracy-weee want the spunk, CabinGirl-lucky kids, Booman-not so much dialogue as there was waving from across the H.I.lobby, MLK-where did you go, and so many other faces that came without names.
I don’t know how much word we got out, but I’ve been inspired and re-energized to fight and assist those who can really fight.
That weekends worth was tremendous. I’m wide awake people and don’t think I’m going to bed anytime soon.
And yes Janeeet I love you too.
Hi Ryan! Great to see you here. Yous sis is a force to be reckoned with and what a big heart she has.
(Give Damnit Ryan mucho mojo, people!)
Do you guys have a Damnit Cat who’ll be posting soon too? 🙂
I just caught on to the news that you have joined the bootribe, welcome and be sure to step on over to the froggy bottom cafe for a proper welcome….
at ya, Ry!
Glad to see you here!
Looking forward to meeting Janet’s brother! She and I will keep the West Coast moving (although with her energy she can motivate everyone here!)
Hugs and welcome to the Boo Tribe!
AFTERBIRTH!!!!
((((((((((((((((((((((RYAN)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I love you!
See, it does matter!
EVERYONE, this is my little brother who joined us in DC from Washington. He’s very special.
How cool is that?? Welcome Ryan!
Afterbirth? lol
It is about people getting out of their comfort zone. I was on a bus for 12 hours. This was not comfortable. No one complained. We cleaned up and brushed our teeth in a truck stop bathroom. The average age on the bus was 60 years old. We marched all day. Everyone got back on the same bus. This time the a/c was broke and the bathroom smelled and still no complainers.
Why no complaints? We knew we had done something important. For every person at the march, there was at least 10 people at home who could not go. There were a lot of contacts made. A lot of friendships formed. There will be more marches and every time they will get bigger and bigger.
Remember November 2nd.
The only way anything changes is through diligence.
and comfort the disturbed…
I was reading through the email I just received from CodePink and along with it came a link to pictures and words…
http://www.codepinkalert.org/article.php?id=500 – I about fell off my chair when I saw pictures of me with the some of the greatest women on this planet.
It did matter.
I want to share with you Cindy Sheehan’s words
Saturday, September 24, 2005
We Don’t Exist
Cindy Sheehan
“Last weekend, Karl Rove said that I was a clown and the antiwar movement was “non-existent.” I wonder if the hundreds of thousands of people who showed up today to protest this war and George’s failed policies know that they don’t exist. It is also so incredible to me that Karl thinks that he can wish us away by saying we aren’t real. Well, Karl and Co., we are real, we do exist and we are not going away until this illegal and immoral occupation of Iraq is over and you are sent back to the depths of whatever slimy, dark, and loathsome place you came from. I may be a clown Karl, but you are about to be indicted. You also preside over one of the biggest three ring, malevolent circuses of all time: the Bush administration.
The rally today was overwhelming and powerful. The reports that I was arrested today were obviously false. The peace rally was mostly very peaceful. Washington, DC was filled with energetic and proud Americans who came from all over to raise their voices in unison against the criminals who run our government and their disastrous policies that our making our nation more vulnerable to all kinds of attacks (natural and “Bush” made disasters).
I led the march for peace along side such venerable activists as the Reverends Al Sharpton, Bob Edgars, and Jesse Jackson, Jr., and Julian Bond. Two of our Congresswomen with cajones from California: Barbara Lee and Lynn Woolsey also led the march.
Many people told me thank you for coming. I want to tell America “thank you!!” At the Camp Casey reunion this evening, I was so overcome with emotion and gratitude that I wanted to hug every citizen of this country. We in the Camp Casey movement are so proud and thrilled that America showed up in such great numbers.
So much happened today! I am exhausted but very content. I am again filled with a renewed sense of hope that we will get our country back and get our troops home. I was also thrilled at the number of young people who came out today. That is another great sign that the side of good is winning.
With the Reverends, we stopped in front of the White House and said a prayer. After the prayer, I said that we are light and they are darkness. Darkness can NEVER overcome the light, ever. As long as there is one spark, the darkness has lost. We will prevail, we will be victorious. The darkness has lost because our beacons of peace and truth are shining for the entire world to see. And it is a very pretty sight. Take that Karl.”
yes, take THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m dreaming, of a PINK Christmas!
You bad girls are so awesome. Can’t get enough of Code Pink!
hee hee hee hee hee! But hey, if want to play with the big girls ya gotta show up for the date man!
Against TABOR (the so called “Tax Payers Bill of Rights” – a similar bill has done great damage in CO – they’re trying to do it in KS).
To sell this “drown gov in a bathtub” style measure – a group called “American Dream” has been doing a Bus tour of KS. they have been met with strong oppostion from teachers, unions, the elderly and disabled – even school districts as a whole – anyone who understands that the commonwealth should provide for the common good and that Reaganomics simply doesn’t work.
Our mere PRESENCE at their rallies has thrown them off their game. they have been forced – instead of sticking to the script – to address that there is disagreement. Their speeches have been nervous and flustered instead of smooth and polished.
I was ASTONISHED today that one of the main speakers talked about the success of Reagan and it’s “Morning in America again” – said that TABOR would bring morning to KS. We had fun with that – saying “You Spelled Mourning Wrong” (he actually looked…)
So tonight on the news and tomorrow in the paper – instead of the anti-tax folks getting a free ad for their side – there will be stories showing our banners too and featuring quotes from those who oppose this measure.
That’s FAR more important and persuasive than post story LTE’s (which we’ll still write) and flash animations we email amongst ourselves.
We stood up and were counted – we made connections that will help us defeat this bad bill.
It takes all the tools in our toolbelt to stop the right wing.
This is a very powerful thread-and I ,frankly ,did not have the time to read it all.
But, I would like to welcome DamnitRyan to this wonderful place.
Thank you all for the welcome. I’m a lover and a fighter but not so much the writer, but I’ll be here mornings to check in/up(est). Headed to work early so I can stop at the bookstore. I need a new read to brush up on my rights, maybe “Democracy For Beginners” or “Shuttin’ Down The Man-For Dummies”. Who knows…
Stay strong!
Protests DO matter and they definitely have their place.
It seems to me that the government and the media have gotten good at diminishing and containing protests. The March for Women’s Lives showed that. Roughly a million women and men, the largest march ever, on the mall and it barely even registered a blip on the nation’s or media’s radar screen. “Free speech zones” miles away from the presidents appearances (and therefore the media) and screening and filtering the presidents audiences are other methods employed to diminish, neutralize, and control the American Citizen’s Right of Protest and Dissent.
But that does not mean we shouldn’t protest. That would be foolish in the extreme.
Protests do get coverage and protest do galvanize people and even if the media didn’t cover one million men and women on the mall you can bet that the members of the House and Senate were very aware of those numbers. Also, as stated above, it is too important a right to simply let it go because the fascist aspects of the oppossition have learned tactics to neutralize it… besides… ask any Union guy about the importance of protests.
However, I think that from a tactical standpoint other things need to be considered. Mike Ferner’s idea about having the whole protest on Saturday stage a sit-in and not wait until the lower numbers of people did so Monday makes sense.
But I would take it a step further.
The plan for Monday was to stage visits to congressional offices. This was a good idea but I’ve heard nothing about how that went. How many Senators and Representatives were visited? How many people made those visits? What results were achieved?
Elected officials have a rule of thumb about what it means when they receive an email, a letter, a phone call or a personal visit. I may not have these numbers exact but an email means 10 constituents agree with the content. A letter means 20 constituents hold that position. A phone call means 50 consitutents agree and a personal visit to the office means 100 constituents agree with the position being stated.
So what if we hold a protest with 100,000 people. 100,000 people arranged by state and congressional district. 435 Congressional districts… do you think we can find at least 5 anti-war protestors from each of the 435 congressional districts? And from many of those districts could we find 5 per town or county in that district? Arrange people in such a manner and then pre-arrange a day full of congressional office visits 5 or 10 people at a time covering as wide a range of each Representatives district or Senators state as can possibly be arranged. Fill the day as fully as we can with such visits with each delegation announcing who they are, where they are from, what groups within those districts they may represent or be members of… and each carrying the same message.
You think a Representative wouldn’t hear that message?
I think protests matter because they’re the pebble — or pebbles, in the case of last weekend! — that are the beginnings of the avalanche.
Cindy Sheehan was the first pebble — how could one small pebble threaten the great boulders at the top of the hill? But there she was, and she got other pebbles started rolling. At times Camp Casey swelled to several hundred people, camped out in the middle of nowhere in the heat and the dust, and though the opposition was certainly loud and passionate, they never came close to matching Camp Casey’s numbers.
There were the candlelight vigils, over 1600 of them across the country, organized on what was really pretty short notice — fifty pebbles here, three hundred there, a hundred-fifty there. And people driving by waved, flashed the peace sign, or honked support. Very little opposition — again, vastly outnumbered by those standing the vigil and those who cheered them on.
Then we had the big protest march — and if there weren’t a half-million people there, we didn’t miss it by much. Several hundred thousand people, from all parts of the country, who had committed the time and paid the expense, ridden in busses for hours, or paid the exhorbitant price for gas to drive, or airfare to fly, to get there. The atmosphere was electric, and it was contagious. More pebbles were rolling than ever. And once again, the opposition was vastly overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
For every marcher who traveled six or more hours on a bus, flew across country, or drove in from out of state, there has got to be an even larger number of anti-war supporters who couldn’t make it. People have jobs, they have kids, they have responsibilities, and/or they don’t have the spare cash to make such a trip. What I think the numbers do show is that the total number of people in this country who want our soldiers out of Iraq is far, far greater than those who support the President’s little war.
And the more people know that, the stronger their voices become. It means a LOT to know you’re not alone in your frustration, in your anger, in seeing what you see but (apparently) no one else does, because the media doesn’t report it. This is building a movement, building up to that avalanche. This is bypassing the uncooperative media. This is getting US motivated, by showing us what the proportional numbers were of those against the war versus those who support it. This is forming relationships and networks to take these goals further forward, inspiring budding activists to get involved in local politics, and demonstrating just how broad a coalition this can become.
And it’s a rattling rain of pebbles against those big, reluctant boulders of the Democratic leadership, who are gonna begin to find those pebbles extremely irritating — and eventually will be unable to ignore.
But the physical presence of boots (or sneakers, or sandals, or flip-flops, in wheelchairs, or even pink high heels) on the street, people with signs and chanting, in huge numbers, is still significant, because it proved to all of us that we were NOT alone. The incredible diversity of the crowd was significant, because it demonstrated how wide the support anti-war movement is across the population as a whole. The media may downplay the numbers but that won’t sell to anyone who was actually there, or who hears from anyone who was there, or who hears or reads first-person accounts from participants – and the mere fact that so many people DID show up means that there are an awful lot of people out there who aren’t getting all their news from FOX and MSNBC.
Keep those pebbles rolling. Hang on to the high hopes. Sooner or later the dam will burst, and the boulders start sliding downhill.
Janet T,
Your comment here is the best I’ve read in defense of why we march. I’m certain that Bush and Rove, well, at least Rove know we were there. Rove is not a stupid man and I’m sure he understands the implications of such a large turnout. It is that it will breed larger and larger marches as more and more angry and dissatisfied people decide that they can no longer stay home, or like Military Tracy says, we will begin engaging in larger acts of civil disobedience.
I look forward to meeting you in the future when maybe we turn out a million.
Janet, you just summed it up perfectly. I wish I could give you 12!
Thanks, catnip. Today, I make my first ever comment on BooMan. I was so appalled yesterday by Markos’ post about the irrelevance of protests and so glad to see BooMan’s response today, that I came right over and signed up. (I’ve been reading BooMan for quite some time. Just never actually “joined.”)
As a participant in this weekend’s events in DC and a strong believer in the power not only of the collective voice but boots on the ground, I am grateful for this post.
I look forward to interacting with you and your fellow _____s (what do you call yourselves here?) in the weeks and months to come.
I got welcomed just like this. Glad to have you. This is a cool place. People will talk to you. There is little baloney. Tribbers is the term I most hear now. As I was told, pull up a lillypad and join right in.
Only rule that I have ever heard is don’t be a prick. And everyone pretty much follows that no prob.
Thanks. “Don’t be a prick” sounds like an easy one to abide by.
I always thought so too, but I gave it a good run for its money yesterday! yikes! Mostly, ’round here, when one is approaching prick-ish-ness, there are a few gentle warnings and then if necessary, a harsher one, but mostly, everyone has pretty forgiving of my harsher moments — all in all, I find I don’t have them here much.
Welcome to you!
So you think Ben Affleck is stupid fricken asswipe from hell. So does Jennifer Lopez!
breeding material. We already have the Terminator for a governor, I still having the Inseminator for Senate wouldn’t be that bad!
From one participant to another, welcome :o)
What do you think of the green here? Kinda easy on the eyes huh?
Bootribbers
Tribbers
BT’rs
Booswarm
Frogs
Froggies
Take your pick
once again, welcome
Thanks for the welcome and for running down the possibilities for me. Not sure which I like best. I’ll have to see what fits best over time. And yes, the green is cool.
Maybe we can hook up at the next march or protest! 🙂
Welcome! And you must introduce yourself over in our “Froggy Bottom Cafe” diary…it’s a tradition around here!
And thanks for marching. I applaud all who did. That took committment and drive.
You can call me “catnip”. I don’t know what the rest of the sordid bunch likes to be called.
just kidding…just don’t call us Republicans. We don’t like that much. 🙂
What a difference a community makes! This sure feels like coming home! I don’t know how to reply to all of you who sent me warm welcomes, so I’m doing so in response to this last welcome from catnip.
For Damnit Janet – you will certainly see me at the next march/rally and I’ll still be wearing my blue wrist band from jail as a badge of honor.
For CabinGirl – What’s this about introducing myself at the “Froggy Bottom?” Can’t wait to do so!
Too cool for shoes…did they really make you sit on a bus for 12 hours?
As for the Froggy Bottom, I’m heading that way, let me give you a lift over there!
I don’t see the situation as all-or-nothing, but I do see the field much more heavily tilted against us than ever during my half century of life.
The past anti-war protests were to an important degree a potential labor action of the draft pool. That gave them more leverage than today’s movement which doesn’t face a draft. Granted the military’s recruitment is down, but unless a large youth anti-war movement develops, today’s movement doesn’t threaten the military as the past one did.
Some other past protests of both civil rights and the working classes had the ability to deprive the market of labor or customers. The whole purpose for globalization was to free the economy’s owners from dependence on their own populations, both for labor and for consumption. As that moves forward, the people have less ability to disrupt the economy by refusing to perform.
All protests are crucially dependent on societal awareness. But today’s modern America has no public square; its common life is experienced only in the private mass media property of a very few of the economy’s top ownership. Those owners don’t allow their private property to be used against them freely, so it is more difficult than ever for a demonstration to become known to the electorate. Within experimental error I believe it is safe to say that there was no large march in Washington over the weekend. The nation’s leading national commentator reported it being 30 or 40 people I believe. There was, however, an arrest of Cindy Sheehan and a few others on Monday. In the minds of the electorate, that is. So it’s difficult on the one hand for an action to become known to the people and it is also difficult for demonstrations or much of any other creativity to evolve a new consensus among the people that would be contary to the owners’.
Most of all, protests depend on a shameable society. Ghandi made that point as I recall. Modern America has no such society. The ownership of the economy are almost unanimous in having economic interests that are against the peoples’. Meanwhile the Republican electorate is fundamentally opposed to the left’s most basic philosophy and purposes of government. So, demonstrating to the other side that a policy endangers or harms the people not only will not shame them, it may actually motivate them to look for other policies to adopt that will enhance the effect.
To take the other side, we may be in one of history’s gigantic divides, where a small nudge in either direction could make a huge difference in our future. So while I’m highly skeptical, I don’t rule out protests out-of-hand, because we may yet have a few key figures in high places in government, economy or culture that might be moved by one fortunately-timed plea. We’re very, very near the point of running out of moves.
I’m glad you’re not ruling them out. I think protests are simply fire drills for revolutions. 🙂
That Markos is a dumb ass. Protests are the absolute best way to threaten a government. It is a physical confrontational statement. It’s not words or letters or telephone calls, it a potential physical threat. It’s saying we are coming to you physically to tell you to stop.
The possibility is that in a physical confrontation is that it may come to blows. That will never be obsolete.
We matter to John Conyers, Jr
Peace Protestors Held Handcuffed in Buses For Over 12 Hours
I wanted me to share with you a letter I wrote to the Chief of the United States Park Police regarding the treatment of the 384 protestors arrested outside the White House yesterday, many of whom were held, handcuffed, for over 12 hours on a bus.
Office of the Chief
United States Park Police
Dwight E. Pettiford
1100 Ohio Drive S.W.
Washington, D. C. 20242
Dear Chief Pettiford:
I am writing to request information regarding the treatment of individuals arrested on September 26, 2005 in front of the White House and processed at the United States Park Police Anacostia Station.
Yesterday 384 protestors, including peace activist Cindy Sheehan, were arrested outside the White House and were brought to United States Park Police Anacostia Station. I was very surprised to learn that many of those arrested were kept handcuffed in vans and buses for up to 12 hours before they were charged and released. Some of those were released at 4:30 in the morning after being arrested at 4:00 the previous afternoon. Many of those held captive the longest were grandmothers and senior citizens. Those released after midnight were unfamiliar with Washington, DC and had no means to travel back to their hotels once the metro had closed. Anacostia is not frequented by taxicabs after midnight.
I have the following questions regarding the treatment of those arrested yesterday:
Please respond to the Judiciary Committee Minority Office at 2142 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515.
Sincerely,
John Conyers, Jr.
John Conyers is really something, isn’t he? One could ask where are our other representatives? (why is it always John Conyers who sees the problem, and takes action?)
’nuff said
Thanks for this post.
The folks who marched in DC included a broad spectrum of “we the people”. Many of those who marched are the same people we read daily at kos, Booman, My Left Wing and other progressive sites. Many of those who marched were at Camp Casey I or II in August. Many who marched have helped the relief effort on the gulf coast and Texas. Many of those who marched are leaders in their county’s Democratic party chapter. Many of those who marched, contact their congress critters regularly. Many of those who marched embrace diversity in their community. Many of those who marched lead our cause in so many other ways.
Those who marched networked with others they met in DC. Many became energized by the experience and returned home with determination for the fight ahead.
All who marched deserve our admiration and respect. Democrats need to find our common ground, recognize and celebrate our differences, the stand united as we get ready to kick some GOP butt in 06! IMHO.
Because we can do this
all day and not get anywhere it seems.
Both ways though enable you to meet new friends, however marching… you and your friends get blisters on your feet and memories that will last a lifetime. Hopefully the blisters don’t 🙂
AWMPL! (a variant on ROTFLMAO)
That is hysterical…
CabinBoy the Elder found this hilarious too…
Tell both your boys and YOURSELF that you have a BIG fan in me 🙂 I love your Cabin Clan to pieces!
Go over to Erics Site ‘bushFlash’ at:
http://www.ericblumrich.com/index.html
Check out the Right hand side for Video’s
Eric has a Number of Links up for Video’s of Saturdays Rally/March and Mondays Civil Disobedience at the White House