I really hate having to do this. This is supposed to be my day off. But I feel like I need to respond to the argument going on in the community over the war in Iraq.
In order to talk about the war in Iraq, we need to talk about the Persian Gulf War. I opposed that war at the time for a very specific reason. I felt it would bring terrorism to our own shores. Yet, I was not opposed to the war in principle. I felt that Kuwait was a member of the United Nations in good standing, and that part of the purpose of the United Nations was to assure the sovereignty of its member states.
When a member of the United Nations (in good standing) is attacked it is the job of the Security Council to defend their sovereignty. This was done in 1950, when North Korea attacked South Korea.
So, I was torn over the decision to liberate Kuwait. My decision to oppose the war was probably influenced by the offensive and misleading propaganda the first Bush administration used to justify the war. I also was concerned that Saddam had been misled into thinking we would tolerate his invasion. It was a difficult decision, but I opposed the war.
In spite of this, I was impressed with the coalition that Poppy put together and I was encouraged that it led to progress on the Israel/Palestine controversy, leading directly to the Oslo Accords.
At the end of the war, when Saddam did not fall as anticipated, we were stuck with an intractable problem. Initially, the French, British, and Americans took joint responsibility for manning the no-fly zones and maintaining a very harsh embargo. This protected the Shi’a and Kurds from genocidal attacks, but it also created a grave humanitarian crisis, and it failed to weaken Saddam’s grip on power.
Before long the world was blaming us for causing the suffering and death of tens of thousands of Iraqis. Then the French bowed out of their responsibilities for keeping up the no-fly zones and became vocal critics of the sanctions. Thanks very much.
Now, let’s take a step back and ask what right America had to intervene in Kuwait and then to apply sanctions on Iraq?
The most obvious answer is that the UN agreed to authorize these actions, and therefore they were legal under international law. And the underlying presupposition of such authorization is that the United States, and other members of the Security Council, have some responsibility for being an enforcement arm of UN resolutions.
The Security Council members are exceptional in the sense that they are the only powers strong and affluent enough to put teeth into the UN. If the UN wants to be able to make members abide by its rules, America’s military is an indispensable tool in a way that, say, Ghana’s military is not.
Does this mean that America has the right to invade other countries’ sovereignty in a way that Iran does not? Yes and no. We have no more right than any other country to invade the sovereignty of another nation, unless we receive UN authority to do so. But Iraq was a special case. We had been given authorization, and were operating with that authorization, to permanently violate Iraq’s sovereignty. Even the UN was violating their sovereignty by, for example, running the oil-for-food program.
Yet, we were abandoned in the task of containing Saddam by the other Security Council members. France backed out of the no-fly zones, and then Russian, France, and China signed contracts to develop Iraq’s oil fields contingent on a lifting of the sanctions. They then joined the chorus of critics of the sanctions, blaming the US and Britain for causing unnecessary suffering.
And, the fact of the matter is that the sanctions were not working. They had the effect of increasing Saddam’s control over the people, as they became dependent on him for their ration cards. He used the suffering of his people as an effective propaganda tool against us, as did al-Qaeda, even while he wasted his country’s resources on a massive palace building program. Containing Saddam was not making us safer, and it was doing nothing to ease the plight of the Iraqi people. It was hurting the economies of our allies in Turkey and Jordan, and of the whole region generally.
It is within this context that the decision was made to invade Iraq. Yes, I believe the decision pre-dated 9/11, and the 9/11 merely provided an irresistible pretext for the invasion.
I’ve written all of this by way of a prelude. And I just want to reiterate the situation as it stood in early 2001. Our policy vis-a-vis Iraq was a failure. After ten years Saddam had a tighter grip on power than ever before. Our air bases in Saudi Arabia (needed to patrol the southern no-fly zone) had led to retaliatory strikes at Khobar Towers, our embassies in Africa, and against the USS Cole. Colin Powell had made a failed tour of the region to gather support for a smart-sanctions regime. We faced the choice of lifting the sanctions, ending the no-fly zones, and allowing Saddam to re-exert control over all of Iraq (and eventually re-arming), or of continuing a failed policy in perpetuity in the face of increasing criticism and resistance from the international community, and an increasing threat of terrorism.
It is not clear to me what other options were available to us. But the one the neo-cons seized on was to overthrow Saddam’s government and start over from scratch. Now, I think it might have been possible to make a case for such a drastic strategy if we had been willing to make the case honestly and had been willing to share the contracts for rebuilding Iraq.
In short, we could have said that we were no longer willing to suffer the costs in money and blowback that containing Saddam required, and that we were also unwilling to allow him to reconquer Kurdistan and southern Iraq, and to rebuild his armed forces with all the money he would get once the sanctions were lifted. We would have told the other security council members that they had left us holding the bag, and we expected them to bail us out. In return, we could have paid whatever cost that was required to gain their support.
With a unified approach and UN approval, a full-out invasion may not have been required, as Saddam would have seen the writing on the wall, and so too, would his generals and colonels. A coup or voluntary exile would have been more likely. And if an invasion became necessary, it would have had the legal cover of a UN resolution and a coalition similar to the one that waged the Persian Gulf War.
For whatever reasons, the Bush administration did not attempt to make these arguments or to make the compromises and concessions that might have made them work.
They chose instead to make a false argument about weapons of mass destruction. They chose to rip up the contracts of the French, Russians, and Chinese, at the same time they were asking for their votes in Security Council. As a result, the war was illegal under international law, our troops had no legitimacy when they arrived, and we didn’t have enough troops to protect the infrastructure and to maintain order.
I could go on at great length about the other mistakes made by the Bush administration. But my point in saying all this, is that our Iraq policy was a real problem that did contribute to the rise of al-Qaeda, that did have a direct effect on our security, and that something had to change.
If I had it my way, Kuwait would be part of Iraq and Iraq would be a bulwark against Iran, and we would just tolerate Saddam as we tolerate Qaddafi and Mugabe. But history didn’t turn out that way.
The United States is exceptional because we were indispensable in liberating Kuwait, and we are indispensable in enforcing UN resolutions. We didn’t deserve the abandonment we received in the aftermath of the Persian Gulf War. And we had a right to do something about it.
Unfortunately, what Bush decided to do about it had the effect of destroying our credibility, of destroying the UN construct that gave us legitimacy to act in the first place. But the complexity and nuances of the situation are such that I feel it is incorrect to view all our soldiers as criminals just because the war is technically illegal. The true crime isn’t that we invaded Iraq’s sovereignty, but that we did so in a totally irresponsible way, and made matter worse for everyone involved. There were many options we could have and should pursued before we launched an invasion, based on lies, with no international support, and with a totally inadequate plan.
It is my true hope that we learn the lessons of this war. And there are many. The most important lesson is the importance of approaching our international problems in a multilateral way, even if it involves painful concessions. The second most important lesson is that we need to become less reliant on Middle Eastern energy sources. And the third, is that we strip the executive of some of its war powers, and learn to distrust our own media and exert more independent thinking.
Additionally, we must figure out, as a country, whether we are to pursue an isolationist foreign policy, a policy that uses the UN as a proxy for all of our international interests, or an interventionist policy. Since the debacle of the 1930s it’s been the last of these, interventionist. Is it time to change this?
The US does not have the military or economic viability necessary to sustain an isolationist foreign policy. That’s where the neocons screwed up big time – wars cost money.
With everybody and their anti-American dogs having nukes pointed at the US, the US needs to play nice with other countries (ie. its allies) if it wants to survive.
As for coalition members abandoning the US after the Gulf War, let’s not forget that elder Bush abandoned the Iraqi people and the US soldiers with Gulf War Syndrome.
And I forget the details, but didn’t we say we’d support some Shiite uprising, but then failed to support them at the last minute and they were slaughtered?
BTW, great summary Booman. I like to see a no-spin, honestly written piece by someone running a popular blog.
And I forget the details, but didn’t we say we’d support some Shiite uprising, but then failed to support them at the last minute and they were slaughtered?
Yes. That’s what I was referring to.
and stop doing permanent emotional damage to our own troops?
Stopping the damage won’t happen unless and until we have enough people advocating for them in the halls of Congress.
And to get enough people to push for Congress to do something may require we discuss some pretty awful, embarrassing, and disgusting stuff that has happened over there “on our behalf”.
That’s not anti-American (as some would spin it). That’s just explaining the harsh reality of what’s really involved, to raise passions to the point people will stop blindly supporting an abstract concept like “war on terror” and really question whether we support the specifics enough to continue to “support the war”.
Well in a perfect world this would be my plan or at least the beginning of a plan.
You’d need an extremely charismatic, brilliant President who would begin diplomatically begging other countries to become involved in helping the Iraqi people realize a goal of democracy suited to their needs. Not helping us but to cooperate with the Iraqi people to help stabalize the country so it can be rebuilt…by Iraqi’s.
We would agree to begin with a timetable-say two years of our troops all being gone. Give everyone something to work towards. We do not keep permanent bases there. We also bring home a set amount of troops right away as other peacekeepers will be brought in for other towns and then some of our troops will fill in elsewhere. This would prove us serious about leaving.
With(supposing we do get help from numerous countries with peacekeepers/UN help etc)we start by building in all the outlaying areas of Iraq democratic towns with their own elected leaders working and as example to other towns. We work our way up to Bagdad this way-ringing Bagdad with effective leadership in all the smaller towns and cities.
Giving these smaller towns/cities the money needed to rebuild and repair damage done to their infrastructures. Putting the Iraqi people to work and no workers from other countries such as Halliburton et al has been doing.
It seems to me if we could get the smaller towns rebuilt, Iraqi people working, police trained for that town working your way to Bagdad then hopefully a viable and stable country would start emerging and being done by the Iraqi’s. Who would then have a real stake in these towns/cities.
Having the International Community and the UN seems to be the only way to have enough aid workers/peacekeeping troops to make this possible.
Now I have no idea at all if this plan would even come close to fucking working but it is a plan…and anyone who wants to add/subtract or say it’s all crap go ahead.
You’d need an extremely charismatic, brilliant <strike>President</strike>
Change “President” to “group capable of shaping public opinion”. I like it better when the politicians are forced to acknowledge they work for us.
My sense is that it was a really difficult decision to make about the Iraq war. I think sometimes we do forget that the status quo in Iraq was decimating the people. Regardless of who is to blame for the sanctions, what was it, 400,000 people were killed? In other words, supporting the status quo may not have even been more humanitarian than invading the country.
In additions to the lessons Booman mentioned, I think the most important one is that of the importance of Regionalism. If we could temporarily lift the notion that many of us share that the Neo-Cons wanted to go into Iraq to benefit Haliburton, etc. and take some of them at their word (I know, just bear with me for a sec), we see a group of people who believe that individual rights and democracy accompanied by some form of free markets is the key in reducing terrorism and anti-Americanism in the long run. This ideology is perhaps implicitly spelled out in Francis Fukuyama’s The End of History.
Now what I think is the problem with this ideology, which perhaps shares some similarity with staunch Communists, is that there is a total neglect for the realities on the ground. The degree of conviction that certain people have in their view of human nature and their vision described above blinds them from accepting differences in the region. This is not to say that Arabs are inherently incompatible with Democracy, but to say that it seems apparent to me that people in the region see the U.S. as an Imperialist Empire who supports Israel’s occupation of Palestine and who is only after the oil in the region. This is a perception, its validity is another discussion.. but ultimately, the neglect or underestimation for the culture of the region is what Neo-Cons failed to understand.
One of the cheif reasons the neocons have such a misconception about the region is that they appear to me to have formulated policy first, then looked for achademic research to back it up later.
Their near diafication of the Bernard Lewis and his writtings on the region prove the point in my mind. While most Arabists and Middle Eastern scholars write and theorize in a polar opposite of Lewis’s teachings, it was his view of the “backward” Muslim culture, and it’s need for western “improvement” that was the basis for most of their theories.
Good point. Fix the facts and the history around the policy.
When I came back to reading my own post, I didn’t mean to come across like I supported the war. In fact, I was very vocal against it, just trying to emphasize the difficulties of the decision making.
I think one of the main causes of the contention amongst progressives about Iraq is our inability to reach some sort of consensus about how to extricate ourselves from this terrible mess. Although we all agree it was a terrible mistake from the start, and we must get out (as do an ever increasing number of Americans) the “how” part of the equation becomes more and more important.
Herein lays the frustration and rancor. We’ve spent close to three years trying to wake the American people from their Bush induced stupor to see how wrong this war is, and now as they start to come around we realize that short of “pack up the tents, and move the carnival on” we have not formulated a plan to get out of this mess.
Bush and his minion have taken such a colossal dump on the world stage that simple answers cannot solve the problem. We are faced with the task of cleaning up what will most likely go down in history as one the greatest blunders ever made. As a community, …progressives, democrats, liberals, or whatever we are to be called, need to start banging our heads together and figure out how to clean up this mess.. then, once some sort of end game is figured out that we can all get behind, the rancor will end.
then, once some sort of end game is figured out that we can all get behind, the rancor will end.
A part of the rancor that keeps us from figuring out how to clean up this mess is caused by philosophical differences in why the Iraq War is wrong. Philosophical pacifists think all war is wrong, and for many also standing armies. Progressives who accept the necessity of national defense think that this war is wrong.
A part comes from diffences about strategy and how much the short-term danger of withdrawal is perceived. There are those who want troops out tomorrow, regardless of the logistical impossibility of such action. There are those who want set a date certain to encourage a window of lessened hostility that would permit withdrawal. There are those who argue that such a date certain would in fact be more dangerous to American troops than rapid withdrawal without notice.
There are some who want to handle the consequences in some way. There are others who argue that there is no way now that the US has any influence in the region sufficient to mitigate the consequences.
And above it all is the sense that merely rhetorical, politically framing arguments might well be detrimental to stopping the Republican juggernaut. And that it is rhetorical because authority for the military goes to the commander in chief, and we know who that is. And authority for diplomacy in the name of the US goes to the Secretary of State, and we know who that is. And authority for seeking help from the UN goes to the UN ambassador, and we know who that is.
But that’s what we do as Democrats when we are successful… we reach consensus, we build coalitions, we compromise for a common good. I agree that at this point the odds seem insurmountable, but it is something only we are capable of doing and it must be done. So we will fight it out amongst ourselves, but I do believe our overwhelming need to accomplish this task will eventually win out in the end… I certainly hope so…the alternatives if we don’t could be disastrous.
“If I had it my way, Kuwait would be part of Iraq and Iraq would be a bulwark against Iran, and we would just tolerate Saddam as we tolerate Qaddafi and Mugabe. But history didn’t turn out that way.”
Really? You really feel that way? I think Kuwait was justified, a war against bald-faced aggression, against national sovereignty, a war against the UN even.
I also thought that would put the world’s oil in Saddam’s control a bit too much, to the degree that he could have manipulated the market successfully (as it was, the market could easily adjust to Iraq’s manipulation in the past).
Also, I personally condone helping nations who have been attacked such as Kosovo or Kuwait.
It’s the pre-emptive/ preventive crap that disgusts me — it’s like a license to imperialistic fascism, and gives WAAAAAY too much leeway for abuse (see current Iraq quagmire). Also, it gives China all the precedence it needs to invade Taiwan etc. etc. etc.
Afghanistan was justifed but was a failure since the borders weren’t sealed: the Taliban’s safe haven for Al Qaeda post-9/11 justified that invasion.
Iraq, with its lies upon unsupported, exposed lies (see UN inspectors’ reports during runup to war), is the classic example of when NOT to invade.
..Rwanda too. More than any other, we should have intervened militarily.
I tried to explain why I feel as I do about Kuwait.
It’s hard to do in a brief essay.
Where I differ from most progressives is that I see the threat of terrorism (a la al-qaeda) as a direct result of the decision to liberate Kuwait. I even predicted it at the time, and I felt quite vindicated in 1993 when the WTC was bombed.
So, when Bush kept linking Iraq to al-Qaeda I understood the underlying causality, even if I thought he was totally full of shit and misleading the nation.
UBL was radicalized by the Saudis decision to let us into their country, and then to stick around. He would probably be working in a Riyadh office park designing massive construction projects, if we hadn’t come to Kuwait’s defense.
In any case, it wasn’t worth it. Liberating Kuwait turned out to be the costliest thing we have done since Vietnam. I don’t blame the architects of that war entirely. No one can predict the future. And liberating Kuwait was certainly not the only thing that contributed to anti-American feeling in the Muslim world. But it was the most consequential, as it turned out.
I don’t agree with your analysis entirely, Booman. Certainly it was incumbent upon other nations, if they took the UN charter seriously, to deter Iraqi aggression and to restore the territorial integrity of Kuwait. I honestly don’t think Saddam would have, or could have, pushed on to Saudi Arabia as many feared–he would have had to expose his tank and infantry columns to aerial bombardment, and a single American aircraft carrier could have launched enough aircraft to virtually obliterate Saddam’s army if they had been in an exposed position (which is actually what happened in Gulf War I, when the allied coalition virtually ruled the skies over Iraq and Kuwait).
Was the liberation of Kuwait “worth it”? In both principled and practical terms, I think so. And let us not forget that Osama bin Laden is an American creation–it was the CIA who trained and equipped the mujahadeen in Afghanistan, and it was the United States who walked away from a war-torn Afghanistan after the Soviet troop withdrawal, refusing to lend any substantial aid to rebuild Afghanistan. Well, into the vacuum left by the Soviet withdrawal stepped the radical, terrorist-coddling Taliban (who offered to turn over Osama to the West if they could offer definite proof that he was connected with 9/11, and of course no proof was forthcoming).
No, it wasn’t the liberation of Kuwait that began these current troubles, it was the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan was invaded to give the United States a land base to one side of Iran, and Iraq invaded to give it another land base to use against Iran. Look at a map of the region and you’ll also see that Afghanistan and Iraq are adjacent to two of the world’s largest petroleum reserves–the oil in the Caspian Sea region and the Persian Gulf region, respectively.
But isn’t it true that it was not the liberating of Kuwait itself that got bin Laden up in arms but rather that we based our troops in Saudi Arabia and kept those bases active after the Iraq war was over?
I realize this previous post of mine is sort of rednundant, considering BooMan pointed out the very same thing in his post.
I actually think thjought that whether we had troops in SA or not, whether we removed Saddam from Kuwait or not, I think al Qaeda would have mushroomed anyway.
The reason I think this is because I believe that it was the Egyptian extremist Zawahiri who attached himself to bin Laden and used bin Laden to advamce his own, (Zwahiri’s) fundamentalist extremist anti-westerner agenda. I think bin Laden simply fell under Zawahiri’s spell and thus began the extension of Al Qaeda’s agenda to include all things western on their enemies list.
Sort of like Karl Rove is Bush’s Brain; Zawahiri is bin Laden’s Brain.
When I hear the war drums beating, I get immediately suspicious.There are some-(not many )good reasons for armed force- but this one was not only avoidable- it is a disaster,for all concerned. Not one person on the planet was helped by this.
Poppy at least got a coalition and support from the world community- although I was against that one also,it was short and effective.
If brutal dictators were the criteria for wars, we would be invading everybody,there are plenty of candidates out there, but not all of them have that crucial ingredient- oil.Not to mention it is very handy,having had our troops thrown out of Saudi,to have some nice fat military bases right next door- to protect our ‘friends’ there.Just in case ,ya know,Al Queda decides to mount a ‘terrist’ attack on their gulf ports.How convenient.
Only plutocrats benefit from wars.
</sermon>
If we want to call Bush a war criminal, I’ve got absolutely no problem with that – let’s start building the glass booth. The individual soldiers, in my view, are only criminals when they commit individual criminal acts, as some obviously have.
Well, I was a participant in the first Gulf War, and at the time, we thought we were going to “finish off” Saddam once and for all. We fully expected to push onto Baghdad and topple the regime. Certainly Bush the Elder encouraged the southern Shiites to rebel against Saddam’s regime in the expectation that they would have foreign backing for their rebellion, then abandoned them to slaughter (even permitting Saddam to fly helicopters into the southern “no fly zone” to put down the rebellion) when it was clear that the rest of the international coalition didn’t want to depose Saddam.
At the time, I was disappointed the international coalition didn’t get rid of Saddam and install a better regime in Iraq. However, my views have shifted since then, and I realise now that it was no business of ours to effect regime change–that’s always been the business of the Iraqis. Our sole mission was to restore the territorial sovereignty of Kuwait and that’s what we did. For that limited mission, we enjoyed broad support in both Europe and amongs the nations of the Arabian Peninsula–a true multionational coalition.
As far as the Kuwaitis go…well, I grit my teeth and say that we were still right to run the Iraqis out of there. I make no secret of the fact that I don’t care for the Kuwaiti people in general. They are a rotten, spoilt, ungrateful lot. I actually liked the Iraqis we captured–they were a friendly, open-hearted people who amazingly seemed to bear us no ill-will for beating them. Most of our captives were scarcely the cream of the crop–underage, frightened draftees with little training or motivation to fight. Their officers had encouraged them to surrender in an attempt to save their own lives, although many of those who would have surrendered were slaughtered by allied aerial bombardment. Many of those mass graves in southern Iraq attributed to Saddam’s regime may, in fact, be the victims of Gulf War I, Iraqi soldiers who were left defenceless on the ground.
Actually, compared to the other regimes on the Arabian Peninsula, Saddam’s was relatively enlightened. Yes, he killed rebels and buried them in mass graves, and yes, he tortured political opponents–but so do all of the other regimes on the peninsula, and Saddam was relatively secular and rather more enlightened about equality for women than, say, the Saudis. You can easily find worse places to live than Iraq under Saddam, and when the oil wealth was flowing prior to US-led sanctions, Saddam did do much to provide for the health and welfare of his people.
There was absolutely no reason to invade and occupy Iraq except to try and gain influence on the Arabian Peninsula. Saddam was put in a box after Gulf War I and remained there, no threat to anybody save his own internal political opponents. Actually, the United States has its sights set on a much bigger opponent, Iran, which has aspirations to become the Big Dog on the peninsula. The object of invading Iraq was not to gain cheap oil, but rather to give the United States bases in the region that are not in Israel nor in Saudi Arabia.
For those who say that the United States and the United Kingdom have violated international law in invading and occupying Iraq–well, you are both right and wrong. You are right in that the invasion and occupation violates the law written on paper, but wrong in believing that there is any real “international law” other than the one that comes out of the barrel of a gun. It’s like the old saying, the law is only in force when there’s a cop on the corner.
The United States, as the pre-eminent military power on the planet, does have a role to play as an arbiter of international disputes. However, the history of US foreign policy has been interventionist on the side of all the wrong folk–it’s rare that the United States has been on the side of the angels in the six decades since World War Two ended. The cruel reality is that, for the foreseeable future, international disputes will be decided not by the rule of law, but by the rule of force.
However, Iraq is not an international dispute but rather a rather transparent attempt at imperialism effected by the Americans their sidekicks, the Brits. I vehemently opposed the invasion of Iraq not only on principle (it’s a violation of national sovereignty) but also on practical grounds–Iraqis are dying in far greater numbers than American or British soldiers, Iraq has now become a breeding ground for terrorists, the Arabian Peninsula has been destabilised, and Iran has become less, not more, likely to cooperate with America and Europe as it gazes across its borders at the foreign powers occupying Iraq and wonders if it’s next on the “hit list”.
Now, to answer Booman’s question of what could have been done other than invade Iraq. Well, the United States should have left its bases in Saudi Arabia and maintained whatever presence it could in Kuwait, where Americans are still welcome by the regime and where the threat of destabilising an ally is far less. What’s more, the threat of Saddam re-arming was not so great, even in the short term, because international sanctions could still have been in place even absent patrolling of the “no fly zones”.
I think that the biggest mistake one can make is to see the power of the United States solely in military terms; the greatest influence the United States has is culturally and economically. The US could have lead rapprochement with the Iranians, instead of purposely driving them further to the intransigent right, as it has; the US could have continued pressure for sanctions against exporting arms to Saddam’s regime (remember, Saddam never had any manufacturing capability for tanks, guns, and jets, all was imported from other nations), and I think things would have worked out well enough.
But that’s all a moot point now. The hard questions are:
#1 is a tough one, and ought to give any future President more than a few grey hairs. However, I have my own reasons for believing that the United States is IN Iraq for at least 10 years, no matter who is elected President. The evil brilliance of the neocon strategy is that they knew that once they got the United States into Iraq, it would be next to impossible to withdraw the troops for a long, long time to come. That’s why the United States has built no less than half a dozen permanent bases inside Iraq. The Iraqi regime is to rule as puppets, but the Americans will retain the whip hand and be the power behind the throne.
i think it is an interesting question to know how much pressure the Sauds were putting on us to remove Prince Sultan Air Base, and other bases.
A modified sanctions regime that outlawed weapons sales, but allowed most everything else might have been possible.
In the end, I think a decision was made not to trust Saddam and to just blow up the impasse and start over. There were plenty of greedy reasons to do this, but also legitimate geopolitical ones. And no one can dispute that it was done in about the worst possible way, whatever the possible merits.
Actually, the House of Saud is in very deep trouble, Booman. Far worse than you may know. The regime is highly unstable and, as I’m sure you fully realise, destablisation inside Saudi Arabia is the last thing the American political establishment desire.
The ruling House of Saud is damnably corrupt; the unemployment rate of Saudis is estimated between 25% and 40%, depending on who is tabulating the figures, and wealth is squandered on the aggrandisement of the thousand or so “princes” who rule the population through terror and trickery. What’s more, many elements within the Saudi military are unhappy with the regime, so much so that there have been periodic purges within their military to get rid of “subversive” elements.
The pressure on the US to withdraw from Saudi Arabia was enormous and urgent; that’s why the US rushed into invading Iraq and would let nothing dissuade it. Of course, out of the frying pan and into the fire…I don’t see how things have improved by relocating from one destablising country to a truly destablised one. Actually, the House of Saud is still listed high on the list of “unstable” regimes by both European and American intelligence, and it is considered virtually inevitable that there will be a “radical Islamist” attempt to throw out the princes and put in an Iranian-style regiime within the next ten years.
If you accept that view, then the US also invaded Iraq to give it military bases so that it can intervene in the upcoming Saudi civil war. Iraq is not of primary importance; it’s Iran and Saudi Arabia that really, truly matter and are of utmost strategic importance.
My point exactly,although I don’t think Iran is any longer a target-it may have been if Iraq had been the ‘cakewalk’ that was advertised,(fat chance).It’s Saudi Arabia we are there for,that has been my theory all along.
Hub has been listening to this theory for two years from me,and he is sick of it ,so I thought iIwould inflict it on you all.:P
Although it was imperative to find alternate basing outside of Saudi Arabia I’m not quite convinced that Iraq was seen as the only option. The move to Al Udeid and As Sayliyah in Qatar along with the beefing up of the naval facilities in Bahrain more thean covered our former positions in Saudi Arabia.
I agree that the Iraq invasion had much more to do with strategic positioning than oil or any of the bullshit Bush dished out, in the giant risk game played by the neocons, I’m not sure how much the Saudis really factored in (except that we wanted to be out before that house of cards tumbles) and I’m not sure Iraq was veiwed as the only out.
It was the US government that armed and empowered Saddam Hussein in his rise to power and during his assault on Iran. Therefore it was only natural that the US be responsible for taking the lead in stopping him after he slipped his leash and invaded Kuwait. I think it’s legitimate to say that the US owed Kuwait to remove from their territory the intruder which they had themselves empowered, and that the idea that the US was “indispensible” to this operation, (as though that confers upon the US some sort of “exceptional” status by virtue of their military might), is at best a peripheral reason for US involvement. The US makes itself “indispensible” most often by deliberately creating situations where others become dependent on US power, (or US money) to keep them from being destroyed or bankrupted, and this is not usually a benign process but rather an exploitative ne where the US profits at the direct expense of their target nation. (even a casual perusal of US poicy and behavior in Central and South America in the 1980s and in the MidEast during the Nixon/Kissinger reign clearly demonstrates this).
Secondly, I think it’s clear the the first Bush Administration abandoned it’s “friends” in Iraq and elsewhere long before the other Security Council member states “abandoned” US efforts concernng post-war Iraq. By itself this abandonment of mission wouldn’t be out of the ordinary as part of a comprehensive and rational strategy for bringing an episode of conflict to an end. But, in fact this was a cognitively dissonant and contradictory strategic blunder that directly caused thousands of Iraqis to be brutally hunted down and murdered by the very sadistic tyrant we so forcefully urged them to rise up against and to whom we promised support. So this was a pivotal and far reaching mistake that cost the US much in the way of deep and strongly felt support that might have existed in the broader public sphere in the region.
I reject the idea of American “exceptionalism” if that exceptionalism is meant to signify a somehow exalted right or duty to invade or otherwise intrude upon the sovereignty of other nations just because we have the capacity to do so militarily and because we are somehow endowed with the unilateral wisdom to decide what’s best for our neighbors. The American government lost the ethical high ground in foreign policy a very long time ago. We remain the most warlike country on the planet and we are now the pariah amongst the family of nations, feared and distrusted where once we were admired.
I make a distinction between America and the American government. I love my country, and it’s because I love my country I oppose the actions and policies of this Bush regime government, and refuse to rationalize that somehow we have to do these things in the world because we’re the only one’s who can and because somehow we know best.
and complicate… the question…
Is war ever the right answer?
To me, war = failure.
War and violence signal a failure on humankinds part to work out its problems in a peaceful and civilized fashion. War always equals failure.
Similarly, violence always begets violence. War always begets more war. We argue over whether or not bush’s war was the right thing or not. We argue over whether Gulf War I was the right thing or not. We argue over Vietnam, even Korea. For the most part in these arguments we point at World War II and “There was a justifiable war. A Good War.”
Can’t argue that. There were serious evils in the world and serious danger and many nations and many people fought and died to defeat that evil and danger.
My Mother’s side of the family are Quakers. My grandfather was an active member of the American Friends Service Committee. He was past military service age but was active in conscientious objection to World War II. Not that he had his head in the sand or didn’t believe there were good reasons to fight the war (as evidenced by his defending Quaker young men that decided to enlist when the Meeting wanted to expel them for it) but rather that he simply believed that war is not the answer.
World War I was begat by the colonial days and wars of the previous couple of centuries. World War II was begat by World War I. The Cold War with it’s hot interludes in places like Angola, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, central and south America, and many other places was begat by World War II. The middle eastern conflicts we face today were all begat in part by the end of the colonial days and world war’s I and II. I over simplify all of this of course but you get the point.
george w. bush’s war was begat by Gulf War I. I was furious when George H.W. Bush stopped the conquest of Iraq in the first war. If you are going to fight a war, fight the damn war, win it, and get it the fuck over with. By stopping it guarenteed that this war would happen at some time in some way.
Violence begets violence. War begets more war.
At the same time a person has the right to defend themselves. I grew up on the streets as well as in the church and I learned all too painfully that right and the need to defend myself. This extends to communities and to nations. Sometimes we are left with no choice but to fight… but it still signals a failure to resolve our problems, individually or collectively, in a peaceful and civilized fashion.
War and violence may be unavoidable at times but they are always a failure and they are always the wrong answer to the question. Always.
Peace,
Andrew
Where is Stu Piddy and Ductape Fatwa and the others from the “To Hell With American Troops” diary? I presume this diary was begun partly as an answer to the views they expressed there, yet they do not come here to debate them.
Perhaps they can only handle debate when they get to set the rules? I know for a fact that Ductape is not too busy to come debate us–he’s had time to write one new diary in the past twenty-four hours and comment on a couple of others, and watch bad movies and eat pizza in between.
Well, let us hope that he and his compatriots will come debate us. I, for one, eagerly anticipate their arrival and will read their views with all the respect they deserve.
everything you write, but do you think you are helping the situation?
roommate. Is there something you want to tell us?
I was merely wondering why this prominent anti-military, anti-war, anti-American person won’t take a few moments out of his valuable time to drop by and have a friendly debate, that’s all.
As far as the “movie and pizzas” remark–he refused to debate me on another diary because he said he was too busy watching movies and pizza. I guess even a “grizzled old terrorist” like Ductaper (that’s his own description, not mine…I have no idea whether or not he’s truly grizzled) has to take a snack break once in awhile.
The discussion seems to be rather one-sided, though, as the people who seem to have provided the inspiration for Booman writing this diary don’t wish to participate. I have already answered to my satisfaction precisely why this is so; you may draw your own conclusions. I say it is because Ductaper, et al, don’t wish to engage in an honest debate. However, I do hope to be proven wrong and that they will join the discussion.
not online!! This diary hasn’t been up all THAT long!
People go offline?
To be more blunt than Brinnaine… eh, maybe not.
Aw, the heck with it.
Your post (way) above was so good, I’d decided to rate it a 4 long before I got to your sig. When I saw it was you, I considered not rating it simply because I didn’t want you to take it as “you win, Ductape loses”. But I rated it anyways, because I generally agreed with your point, and your argument, in that specific post. That’s all.
Then you post this series. It reads as if now you feel your side is “winning”, and you want to rub it in the face of the side which is, by extension, “losing”.
If that is really what’s going on, that is the kind of juvenile crap I was glad to be rid of when I left the orange place.
People participate in discussions of their own free will. They are certainly not obligated to post on demand for anyone, or to fill an assigned role in anyone elses agenda. You are welcome to join in or abstain with your own post, but everyone else is entitled to decide for themselves if they care to participate.
You made a good case on the merits in your first post to the thread. Personally, I didn’t find anything you posted above contrary to the main points put forward by Stu or Ductape yesterday. Of course you all differed on details, but we’re not freepers here, we actually don’t have talking points to declare one of us right, and the rest wrong. And we’re not the orange place, where the person with the most 4’s wins the argument, either.
You put your point out there, folks reacted to. That’s all for the good. But this little side thread was very much unnecessary and unproductive.
But that’s just my opinion, for all that its worth.
I honestly think the diary would be more interesting and productive if the persons who provided the inspiration for it joined in the discussion. Let’s not all pretend that it’s not Ductape Fatwa.
I don’t think it’s either necessary nor possible to “win” this argument. All sides (and there are more than two, so notice I didn’t say “both”) will throw in their views and then let everyone freely decide. I’m obviously interested in putting forth my point of view and persuading others to my side, but I see debate as an ongoing process, not a game show where one side is declared the winner and gets to take home the washer-dryer set and toaster oven.
I am genuinely disappointed that, thus far, we have not heard from some of the main proponents of a vastly different point of view, which would state that America should never, ever become involved in the affairs of other nations. It’s an interesting point of view, particularly in the context of this diary., and one that I hoped to see fleshed out here. What, exactly, are the arguments for that point of view? They’re not represented here as of yet. I am hoping that my remarks will draw DuctTape Fatwa or someone of a similar persuasion into the debate.
I’m not pretending anything — I thought all of this stink on the site today — spiderleaf’s Un-GBCW diary, diane101’s etc. etc. was in response to Stu Piddy’s diary, now what am I not getting?
Oh, wait, I guess I wasn’t second-guessing BooMan’s intentions correctly — honestly, my first reaction was, ‘what argument over the Iraq war”?
Where did DuctTape state this:
that America should never, ever become involved in the affairs of other nations??
He didn’t use those exact words (and note I didn’t put them in quotation marks), but I take it that is, in fact, his view. Certainly one may reasonably presume that, given Ductaper’s view that America has an irredeemably evil and violent culture, it ought not to move outside its borders.
It’s not a very nuanced view of the world; quite Manichean, in fact.
I anticipate Ductaper will visit this diary and further expound on his view of America’s role in the world. Certainly he found time to post quite a bit on Spiderleaf’s diary, and surely this diary–put on the frontpage by the owner of the site–cannot have escaped his attention. I am wondering if he is afraid to debate this issue with us, or if, in fact, he feels it is beneath him to debate.
I have had it with exceptionalism, American or otherwise. The Nation-State set up that we have going globally is merely an extrapolation on a planetary scale of all the ills and fucked-up-ed-ness that we see at a societal level.
ONLY when we value every human being the same and quit playing “might makes right” games and competing over resources and “money” and start cooperating for a global good will we have a snowball’s chance in hell of surviving as a species. I for one and sick and tired of rearranging deck chair on the Titanic.
Mather Nature may take care of all of this yet.
Call me naive idealistic, or anything else you like., but that is the way I feel about it.
Thoughtful, insightful, internally consistent argument. I’m not sure I agree with your conclusion.
Imho, the balance between isolation and intervention should be considered carefully on a case-by-case basis. Neither position should be held ideologically, as the tension between the two positions is useful to maintain. If no dictator ever feared UN and/or US intervention, the world would probably be a worse place. If the UN and/or the US intervened everywhere a dictator (according to OUR definition of dictator, whatever that may be at the moment) arose, the world would probably be worse for it.
As a result of my thinking along these lines I tend to disagree with your position that we should not have fought Gulf War 1. If the national sovereignty of a member state is not a good enough reason for the UN and the US, nothing else is. Appeasement just doesn’t seem to me to be the correct approach to that issue, regardless of any UN member state’s previous relations with Saddam. And this was not just a border dispute, it was the life or death of a sovereign member of the UN.
I do however agree with your assessment of the dismal performance of the Gulf War 1 coalition after the removal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait. I believe that a concerted worldwide effort to topple Saddam’s regime could have worked, probably without a lot of military intervention from the outside.
My alternate theory of toppling Saddam after Gulf War 1 would have been to load up about 200 billion dollars worth of food and supplies and cash for Iraqis into our military distribution capabilities and started a long slow campaign to squeeze his perimeter with kindness. Along with the UN and our allies, we could have done it. We would have won the hearts and minds of the citizens of Iraq and the world. And when and if it finally came time to fight the collapsing perimeter, we would have been greeted as liberators, roses and all, by the citizens of the newly liberated areas.
Saddam’s crimes against humanity were well known and were justification enough, in my opinion, to have rallied the world community with positive talk and a few bribes, just like Poppy did it in Gulf War 1. In 2001 and 2002, it was not too late for my alternative to have been tried. And yes, I do blame Poppy AND Bill Clinton for not having the vision to follow up on Gulf War 1 properly.
I also don’t agree that Iraq could have been our perpetual buffer against Iran or that Iran needed a buffer. At the time, and subsequently, signs of growing internal dissatisfaction with the religio-political leaders of Iran were moving in the right direction. Our partially failed mission to Iraq was reason (or excuse) for heightened fear in Iran that has propped up the continuation of the tight regime there.
Well, I guess I could go on here, but I do appreciate your views and thank you for sharing them.
I will say one(or two) more things here. I understand most of the views presented by the diarists and commenters on this site. I do not agree with all of them all the time, but I do HIGHLY value the existence of a CIVIL and OPEN FORUM. I am here because of that. It is always difficult to confront someone that you may feel is engaging in hate speech with reason and calmness. But in my opinion, it is the only useful option. Hating back never works. Flaming never works. Imho, trying to understand the root causes of the perceived hate speech and addressing them with understanding and caring is the only way to start digging out of a bad mis-understanding.
And, btw, sometimes the broad brush is the best tool for the job, but more often than not it isn’t. It’s always simple, if you ignore the complexity.
The unknown number of Iraqi civilians we have killed. Our own military with thousands wounded and maimed for life, at least a couple of thousand dead…that leaves only about 52,000 more to catch up with Vietnam.
They died because we had a plan early on apparently. Was arming Saddam to keep him in power then? Did he cross us? Why?
They died, they have lost their infrasture and their history as the cradle of civilization because we were guarding our interests instead of changing our priorities.
I feel a distancing of myself from reading the words here, and I sense a lack of the human factor in what horrors we have wrought there.
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To discuss a decade of Middle-East history in a nutshell, can’t be done. Your analysis falls short to give an accurate account of the finesses of the International relationships and put unfounded blame on France, Russia and China.
George Bush the elder did not attempt to prevent Saddam Hussein from invading Kuwait, when the signals were given, the U.S. ambassador offered no objection. Was the balance of the U.S. decision based on oil resources in dispute between the two countries, the U.S. opted for Iraq first? It was the objection of the British, Margareth Thatcher at the Colorado Summit, that made the U.S. policy makers shift in their decision to stop Saddam and throw the Iraqi’s out of Kuwait.
The true shock and awe of the coalition’s power, gave GHB, Schwarzkopf and Powell the opening to decimate the Republican Gard. Instead, the U.S. forces began decimating the poor Iraqi regulars in the trenches near the Kuwait border and fire bombed the fleeing Iraqi’s along the highway from Kuwait to Iraqi border. This manslaughter turned the world opinion against continuation of hostilities, and caused the cessation of warfare before the Republican Garde was dealt the fatal blow.
In addition, the freak hit of the one Scud missile hitting U.S. Army barracks in Saudi Arabia led to the deaths of some 80 U.S. soldiers.
The settlement to end hostilities with the Iraqis was poorly constructed, and Schwartzkopf accepted the Iraqi request to fly helicopters in the Southern province of Basra. This led to the slaughter by Saddam Hussein of 100,000 Shia in the aftermath of the Persian Gulf War. The U.S. forces could observe what was happening, but did not intervene.
The no-fly zones and the regular bombing raids were never part of an agreement with the government of Iraq and had no legal basis. The United Nation Inspections were needed to enforce the destruction of stockpiles of lethal gases, munition, grenades, etc. The years of UN deployment in Iraq to disarm the Iraqi forces, was used by British and U.S. for intelligence gathering, spying on all Iraqi facilities which were repeatedly bombed afterwards. That forced a conflict with the Iraqis in 1998, the U.N. inspectors left when it became clear Bill Clinton would start a bombing campaign in December – Lewinsky affair – on Baghdad and throughout the country.
To impose an embargo for a decade never works, especially in the situation of Iraq, its geographical location, open borders and the need for Turkey and Jordan to restart the economic relationship with the Iraqi regime. French and Russia had a long standing economic relationship with Iraq, and its oil industry. This is similar to the preferential treatment by Kuwait and Saudi Arabia for the U.S. and by Iran for China, Russia and Japan. The same can be said for Halliburton that had contracts from Iraq and Iran.
It was reasonable for the world community to prefer another treatment of Iraq than a continued strict embargo, which had many leaks and was known by the members of the Security Council. The oil-for-food program was another poor alternative, which could not be regulated. It was clear to everyone in the nineties, the U.K. and U.S. wanted Saddam Hussein removed from power, but no one knew how to accomplish this.
In the lead up to GWB Iraq policy from February 2001, Israel with the newly elected Likud PM Sharon played a major role, also in the Israeli support for the Kurds in its revolt against the central government of Baghdad. In the decision to invade Iraq in March 2003, the Israelis and the security of Israel played a major role for the neocons and George W. Bush. This fact cannot be left out of the equation for convenience, nor the fact that the U.S. Command and forces rely on the IDF tactics to deal with city warfare, guerillas, insurgents and occupation in general. The heavy-handed approach and treatment of detainees is a duplicate of the IDF tactics in Palestinian occupied territories.
When you want to discuss war in the Middle-East you cannot by-pass the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the anguish caused for Arabs and Muslims in neighboring countries and the Muslims living in Europe who view the Arab Satellite Networks daily in their homes.
Nice to read the Likud platform propagated by Binyamin Netanyahu.
Also, as catnip highlighted, the Bush and Clinton administrations haven’t done enough for the Gulf War Veterans and the illness they encountered. The same will undoubtedly be happening with Iraq War veterans today, neglect, poor pay and low pension income. The contracts of the Halliburtons, SAICs and Bechtels are honored, as are the guaranteed pay-checks for KBR and Blackwater employees as security guards!
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Oui, that’s a bit unkind. BooMan has not had a single day off. I was supposed to be here today but had to go visit my mother today instead of yesterday. Catnip and JPol stepped up to the plate — and how! — but Boo was worried about the feelings of so many important people here. If he didn’t address every single component, please don’t criticize him for that … and addressing every aspect is not a good idea in an essay anyway.
Also, while we’re at it — I agree with whoever has said that the United States is NOT always the worst, NOT always the most at fault, NOT always to blame for the world’s ills.
I watched a stunning segment on an HBO sports program that’s staffed by some of the best reporters in sports, or any other field.
I had NO idea of the extent of cruel overt expressions of racism that go on in European soccer stadiums.
The fans — thousands of them, not just a few — throw bananas at the black players. They make monkey “sounds” when black players have the ball.
If that happened in the U.S. — at any sports game, from high school to college to the pro teams — there would be such an uproar that the practice would end once and for all.
I had no idea that Europe would allow such behavior, having generally considered Europeans to be more advanced morally and culturally than we.
Here’s a blurb about the segment that I saw:
But what this really says is not that Europeans are bad, or disappoint me. But that every country has its shame. Every country has its faults. Every country and its peoples have made enormously cruel and vicious mistakes.
This is true, Susan. If Europeans had taken the advice of Americans in the post-World War I settlement, Europe might well have avoided the rise of Hitler and World War II. We will now never know, but it is interesting speculation.
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BooMan’s Day Off is well deserved, the site grows and matures, probably hit its adolescence by now. Search for ideals, uncertainty of life’s purpose, perhaps some individual coaching is needed. I hardly see the need for a community debate necessary for a Oui, DTF, spiderleaf, or did I miss anyone else these past few days?
Just like any dKos attack diary, I see no need for them so I only scan and read parts of them, but do not take part for reasons I gave in comment to Spiderleaf.
My opening in above comment was no criticism to BooMan, on the contrary, perhaps I touched on observation for a parent to let its child grow-up. Unless BooMan gets a rush of worrying emails with request to step to the plate, I saw no disaster looming. The community unity is very sound and solid, has become stronger with all political activism of recent weeks.
As the site grows, even BooMan cannot see or witness every comment, some small brush spontaneously set on fire. Let the BooTribers do their job of entertaining these challenges, like supersoling or Diane10 did with multiple comments and a diary. And many, many others.
IMHO this site is not only about debate and discussion, but to stimulate political activism as a group or by individuals. Many acts and diaries are a witness of this, much is unseen and therefore gets no encouragement. These are missed opportunities. The diaries and participation on Cindy Sheehan, Camp Casey and the 9/24 demonstration are highlights of the backbone within BooMan’s community. Not the diaries about DTF or Stu Piddy are at issue, but just the small elements that make political awareness and individual participation in local politics grow. The Oregon Summit and a personal diary, or Ghostdancers Way, each get a tip of the hat from me, but are often missed as the community grows larger.
But when someone, BooMan included, puts up a diary about the Gulf War and the justification for the Iraq War, these are important issues open for debate on its content, no matter whether its a day-off or an off-day. For me this diary was on the rationale of war, not about internal strife within BooMan’s Place, so therefor I made my comment.
As for crowd trouble at soccer stadiums concentrated in former East bloc countries or fascism and racism in East-Germany, Austria and Greece, these are important social issues on a local level within the European Union, but can hardly be compared with an illegal Iraq War. The Iraq invasion and occupation caused 100,000+ deaths, the propagation and rise in Al Qaeda cells throughout the Middle East, Africa, Europe and SE Asia. To put these two issues at the same level of importance, than there is truly a split in the community. The world is on fire, and the BooMan community is occupied with navel staring, that is impossible.
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Oh … I almost forgot – European Soccer ::
I’m not sure from about USA Sports News you have quoted, but this is weekend was pure sportmanship on the field and in the stands during International Soccer matches.
See also my previous reports on the Youth Championships held in the Netherlands during the summer – winner Argentine!
This Weekend’s Qualifications for World Cup 2006
Dutch Sport AD.nl
Americas ● Italy ● Spain ● Croatia ● FIFA World Cup – Germany
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The title above is a reference to something BooMan said last night, that he feels that whatever he says, I respond like a golfer choosing which of the clubs in my bag I will use. And as I said at the time, he is right.
Because, no reflection on BooMan, there are limited ways to argue in favor of simple precepts, and that limits the arguments necessary for those opposed.
Neither the US nor the UK had any right to go imperializing and colonializing and adventurizing around the ME in the first place, carving up artificial maps and saying here will be this and here will be that.
Nor did US have any right to prop Saddam up when it suited their interests, nor any right to condemn Americans and Iraqis to death when Saddam got uppity and propping him up no longer suited their interests anyway.
Before the current crusade began, there was a joke going around, a cartoon of Rumsfeld saying we know Saddam has wMD because we have the receipts.
Now the US has the most WMD of any other country, and some will tell you more than all other countries combined, and It is a sad truth in this world that any country’s best insurance against becoming the next target of the only nation to ever nuke another country, and the next wonderful opportunity for Halliburton is to amass all the WMD they can scrape up, especially nukes, even if they have to buy them under the table from the US itself.
The United Nations charter sounds as good to most folks as the United States constitution sounds to Jose Padilla, and is just as useful. Jose, like most folks, is not allowed to use the bathroom where both are hung, all absorbent and quilted, and oh so soft.
Although the UN serves as a sort of international public relations office for the US, even people who agree with US policies, including “exceptionalism,” which is a much politer and more palatable way of saying “US is the boss of earth,” agree that the UN charter as it reads, is in direct conflict with the foreign policy of the US, including that very “exceptionalism.”
All the arguments about UN resolutions would have a lot more credibility outside the US if Israel were not in violation of about 69 of them, I lose count, and if so much US taxpayer money did not go to help them violate a few more.
Yes, the US controls the security council, and yes, regular folks in other countries wonder if given the US’s record regarding invasions, human rights, and constituting such a threat to world security, if maybe that particular body might want to consider a name change.
People all over the world, you see, do respect those nifty American truth in advertising laws.
Many Americans claim that justice and equality are fundamental American principles.
Neither is compatible with exceptionalism.
When Eisenhower made his famous speech about the dangers of becoming a single industry nation (he didn’t put it quite like that), he was talking to the American people, who did not listen up, but to be fair, the rest of the world should have listened just as hard, harder, even, and they failed to do so.
The danger the US poses to global security and the continuance of human life is not the fault of Americans alone.
They have had plenty of help. They had to. If the rest of the world, after listening to Eisenhower had then sat down and watched the Andy Griffith Show, they might have got hit with a clue stick and nipped it in the bud, Andy.
If we had, both Americans and their brothers and sisters around the world might have been able to avoid a lot of death, and some tough choices.
for not continuing forward with everything is the fault of the Americans. I agree with a very large majority of your assessment of the damage that has occurred world wide due to the military/industrial complex take over of our economy and our government.
Now if you will only allow those of us who recognize the dangers not only to the world but to our own Constitution to work toward a solution that will not blow up the freakin world, then maybe those of us who are not the war criminals in our culture might have a shot at changing the US and its Imperialism, lead by PNAC as of today.
Wado
I agree 100% with everything you have just posted here.
Marvellous! I agree with Ductaper in most things in his post save this:
“The danger the US poses to global security and the continuance of human life is not the fault of Americans alone.”
I agree partly even with that statement; it’s not the fault of Americans alone, particularly in the past five years when Brits and Europeans could have done more to oppose the American giant. Only now are the scales falling from European eyes as they realise that this is not their ally of old, but a new and radical nation bent on open imperialism.
However, I don’t agree that the US endangers “global security and the continuance of human life”. How, precisely, does it do that? The US has neither the means nor the intention to threaten most of the world. I don’t think the Chinese or the Russians believe the United States will attack them. And this is not merely because those two nations are nuclear powers; the United States dare not attack North Korea, for example, even if North Korea didn’t have nukes, because in the event of an attack of any kind, the North Koreans would invade the South and the war that would rage on the peninsula would make the current fiasco in Iraq look like a ladies’ tea. Same with China; the United States wouldn’t dare try to bully a nation of that size (and its primary financier these days).
DuctapeFatwa gives the United States in general and the Bush/Cheney administration in particular far too much credit. The wheels are already coming off the neocon scheme in Iraq and Afghanistan; Afghanistan is slipping through their grasp, if they ever had it, and Iraq is becoming more difficult by the day. As a BooTribber pointed out on another diary, the US has neither the means nor the intention to dominate the world–it is trying to control the world’s supply of oil in the Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf areas, and failing miserably at both.
Let’s do drop all of this apocalyptic nonsense and focus on the fact that the constitutional democracy in the United States is badly broken. Nothing is going to change until the Americans wake up and take their government back from the radicals who have hijacked it. The rest of the world is too deeply invested in the fortunes of America to turn its back to her, yet there is little they can do to influence her internal domestic politics. The Europeans have, quite wisely, decided to let things play out with the American economy and see if that does not make the Republican Party fantastically unpopular. However, the feckless opposition–and yes, the Democrats are largely ineffective as an opposition party, since they spend more time feuding amongst themselves than they do fighting the Republicans–is not now ready to take power, nor do they appear to be moving in that direction.
My question for Ductaper is why he swiftly moved from his constant theme over the past year, which is that America is the centre of all evil in the known universe, to this new view that America had help in perpetuating its aggressive foreign policy? And which other nations, exactly, are to blame (besides Israel)?
I would appreciate a further explanation of his views on that. Perhaps we can find further ground for agreement–or not.
This whole mess — and I mean the whole mess, from Israel to Afghanistan — is a difficult one to approach because the current situation is based upon layer after layer of false assumptions piled on so thick that it’s almost impossible to determine where to start.
There are, however, two linchpins holding the whole mess together, and they are petroleum and Israel.
Even discussing Israel frankly requires more asbestos than I can afford. My take on the state of Israel is that, once you strip away the very high emotions surrounding the topic, you are left with the world’s last full-blown European colonial state, and a state that is run according to principles that have long since been rejected everywhere outside of the Islamic world in which it has been embedded: the marriage of state and religion. It should never have been founded and its foundation was illegitimate by any secular legal perspective from the very outset. It is, however, a fait accompli, so any pragmatic discussion of Israel has to revolve around its long-term viability.
The origins of Zionism can be discussed into the ground. My view is that Zionism and the modern Israeli state were the only possible outcome of two millennia of incomprehensible cruelty directed against Jews by the Europeans, and that if you want to hate anyone for the existence of Israel, it is Europe, and not world Jewry, at whose doorstep the blame ultimately lies. The hostility of Europeans toward Israel is, quite frankly, beyond disgusting, and is on a par with a wife-murderer sitting on death row, still railing about “that bitch”. It often seems that the Zionists are vindicated by the stance of the Europeans towards Israel — if there is anything Europeans hate more than Jews, it is Jews they can’t kill in their own backyard.
Does it sound like I’m conflicted on the topic of Israel — especially considering that I consider Jewish and (western) European culture to be far superior to my own American barbarism? Well, with the exception of the die-hard fanatics killing each other over there, it seems pretty much everyone who’s given some thought to the issue is at least as conflicted. It’s an ugly, intractable mess, and people three centuries from now will still be amazed by what an ugly, intractable mess it is.
Petroleum, however, is what transforms the ugly, intractable mess of the Arab-Israeli from an obscure ethnic conflict in the middle of nowhere into the central conflict of the world. It produces other ills as well: the vast, centralized power and wealth of the petroleum-based energy industry has savaged many poor countries and corrupted the rich countries, to the point that even the United States, since the coup d’etat of 2000, is in danger of becoming a company town.
Our dependence on oil has made our civilization the societal equivalent of a heroin addict. We can’t function without it. And I don’t just mean energy and transportation. Our materials technology revolves around petrochemicals, and worse, the so-called Green Revolution that makes it possible for us to sustain the kind of population that we have today is based entirely on chemical fertilizers and pesticides. And all of the above is rapidly turning the entire planet into a toxic waste dump — a course we are still reluctantly pursuing because, without oil, something like half the world’s population would starve to death, never mind trivialities like giving up automobiles and plastic milk cartons.
Well, that, and ever since the 1920’s or so, the energy industry has discouraged (and actively suppressed) alternative sources of energy and agricultural production at the same time as it has encouraged a wildly unsustainable rate of energy consumption. No currently practical technology can replace petroleum, including nuclear power, as a source of energy and chemical feedstock. Moreover, many of the most promising supplemental energy sources, such as wind power, have some ugly hidden costs that will become more readily apparent as they ramp up to levels capable of altering the thermodynamic balance of the planet. (Wind-power is basically a heat engine, like any other, and is still subject to the laws of thermodynamics. Massive wind farms have profound climate-altering potential.)
If you’re wondering if all this relates to BooMan’s essay on the Iraq conflict, it does, obliquely. It relates in the sense that the lion’s share of late 20th century conflicts revolved around the world’s petroleum-producing regions, and this pattern shows no sign of abating. If anything, it will become worse as peak oil approaches. If we had taken a different path after the world wars left nominal control of the world’s oil in our hands, none of this would be happening now. And conversely, if we stay on this path, there is no insignificant regional conflict that won’t balloon into a global military disaster. Oil is to us what junk is to a junkie — everything.
The problem, as everyone is surely aware, is that ending the oil habit, or more accurately, the gluttony for energy and mass consumption of which oil is but a symptom, is to our civilization what kicking the habit is to a junkie: almost unimaginably difficult.
That said, unless we accept that challenge quickly, with every ounce of effort we can bring to bear, the fate of our civilization will also be the same as the fate of the junkie who never kicks the habit: a slow and horrid journey to the grave.
We have, as a society, not taken the first step, which is to admit that we have a problem. We dance around it with the same bullshit that comes from the mouths individual addicts: we’re working on quitting, it’s not as bad as it looks, it’s not really a problem at all, or, best of all, when this connection runs dry, we’ll find another. Problem is, for the petroleum high, there really is only one connection. Our case is made worse than that of other addicts because, unlike Europe or Asia, we have uncontested control of the source. We are the connection.
So my point — to the extent that this wild Sunday rambling has one — is that the geopolitical chaos we are dealing with is just an epiphenomenon of the real problem, and splitting hairs over the latest convulsion is ultimately beside the point. It doesn’t matter whether either Iraq war was legitimate. What matters is that we created the situation that made it possible in the first place, and until we attack the self-destructive behavior at the root of all this, we will have endless — well, nearly endless — opportunities to debate the legality of countless future wars.
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This part of your more than excellent comment and analysis ::
On the contrary, the Western European nations treat Israel’s policy towards occupation of Palestinian Land and stagnation of the peace process with silk gloves. Any other nation would have been put on economic embargo forty years ago.
To voice opposition to Israel’s policy is just not done on EU administration level. There is no anti-semitism in the EU, except on occasion of incidents. The level of anti-Islam feelings and discrimination is at a far greater level of incidence since 911, playing into the hands of extremists on the right and Muslim fundamentalism.
I don’t know where or how you have come to such an opinion, but it’s completely besides the truth within the EU.
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Re your #1: I remember James Baker flying — how many thousands of miles (?) — to talk to every key leader in every key country… that was amazing, and impressive.
I don’t know why they had to pull the girl/incubator stunt before Congress because, as Boo says, they wre dealing with the invasion of a sovereign nation.
They cannot resist lying whenever possible!
While I think this history is necessarily a bit simplistic — such a short distillation can only miss important aspects (such as Oslo came out of back channel negotiations between moderates, without any official sanction, not simply out of the Persian Gulf War) — my own feeling is that we all tend to do a little too little contextualizing of events. We have a history there.
Here’s my take:
Afghanistan was obviously an enemy state. Taliban and al-Qaeda seem separated only by leaders, not ideology. That’s where the 9/11 attacks came from. But we fucked it up. On CSPAN2 I saw a retired Colonel go off on how a three-star general needs an office staff of 1000. He said three special forces groups of about 50 each did most of the heavy lifting, but when the general came in, all that stopped.
Now, not only is al-Qaeda escaped from there, but the Taliban is fighting back, and some 80% of the economy is in opium. Wonderful.
But Iraq seemed like an arrogant blunder from the start. Bush seemed to be reacting to Saddam’s taunts. “He’s thumbing his nose at us!” Bush cried in one of his more passionate moments. Not a reason to go to war.
Saddam was horrid, but he was stable and contained, and he was no friend of religious fundies. Or Iran. We had him pinned with little effort on our part. The people were suffering from our embargoes, but that was a matter of political will, not military effectiveness.
But aside from the idiotic idea of attacking in the first place, it seemed obvious to me at the time — and I’m surprised so many people seemed to not see this at all — there were a series of blunders.
But the biggest blunder is the one we’re continuing now every day, and that’s trying to use the military for police work. It doesn’t work. We have laws in our country that prevent the military from doing police work, with rare exceptions for national guard in cases of emergency. And there are good reasons for that. (Kent State, anyone?)
The military is equipped and trained for the mission of annihilating the enemy. You don’t “spread democracy” or “keep the peace” with tanks and machine guns and fighter-bombers. We are asking them to do the impossible, and it’s earning us nothing but resentment, mistrust and rage.
I don’t blame the troops. What can you do when you’re given an M16 and sent into a foreign country to find the gangbangers hiding among the locals?
But thanks to the neocons and everyone who was too afraid to speak out against them, we’re stuck in a no-win situation. So which way is less painful?
Ultimately I think the real goal was to establish a permanent military presence in the middle east. Now we have it. What do you think Halliburton has been building with their billions all this time, while power and water for the people go neglected? The other part of that goal is to control the oilfields. We’ll have military there until those reserves are dry.
Are we so exceptional to have the right to do this? Or are we proving nothing but might makes right?