As most of you know we have had a tradition on this site of periodicaly posting a “Tell Us About You” diary. Well today I want to change that a little and have a ‘Tell Us why you came to booman tribune ‘ diary and then add to that some questions in view of some recent discussions we are having?
- Why did you come
- Why do you stay
- Are you happy with the site
- What problems do you have with the site
- What would you like to see changed
Also please take this chance if you have not done so to ‘tell us about you’ as well.
I will start off by saying I came to Booman for the civility and tranquility and the possibility I would have the nerve to post without fear of attack as I often felt on ‘other’ sites. The community of spirit that has developed was a bonus I had not anticipated but welcome and love dearly.
I find myself now in the ‘fear of posting’ dilemma; other’s said they felt the same so I thought we need to get this out on the table and talk about it as it is affecting some members on this site.
Please join me in the discussion!!
Hey diane, thanks for posting this.
Since I contributed to the broohaha, I figured I’d weigh in… so unlike me, I know 😉
I came here for rational discussion, diversity, liberal values, compassion, and community. I think it is still here and I think our more extreme voices are part of that community… but I think respect is necessary to uphold rational debate. Otherwise it becomes mud slinging and predjudices develop which shape the discourse.
I am still happy to be here & participating as I can.
Thanks for being the first to post, one always wonders do they not if anyone will comment and then the diary will just hang out there, all alone and desolate.
I think respect may be the keyword here as I said before in your diary or maybe even civility….
When one looks at these pages we see only the words and not the writer, we know little of some and a lot about others, but we still know little.
Now if we were face to face with the writer would not our discussions be at least tending towards more civility.
That is one of the reasons I pushed these tell us diaries because the more you know of the person, the harder it is to be mad at them. We must always remember there is a real person behind the words, but the words are not the person.
I came over when Boo first started up because we were all invited from the other site. It seemed a supportive thing to do. After a little I was convinced or persuaded to spend more time here.
I liked the slower pace. I liked how friendly and open it felt here. I also felt more freedom to post the not so political things I write.
Respectfully disagreeing was a plus. No trolling was an even bigger plus. It seemed there was room for everyones ideas and comments without flame wars. Then when Diane persisted in the Tell us diaries and created the Foggy Bottom Cafe. . .it became a great community where we feel we really get to know each other a little. No more just anonymous screen names. Friendships have been made and it feels like family here.
I personally don’t know why anyone wants to attack another persons opinion. Basically, that’s all we have here is our opinions. We are all entitled to them. If you disagree, and need to comment, then do so respectfully and let it go. I have never seen one person’s mind changed because another opinion offered changed it. So it is fruitless and childish to continually go back and forth or dog any particular poster because you disagree with them.
I just stay away from those I know I will never agree with.
I think most of us stay because of the family feeling here.
And I forgot to mention:
SUSAN HU, SUSAN HU, SUSAN HU, SUSAN HU, BOOMAN,BOOMAN,BOOMAN,BOOMAN, AND SUSAN HU. . .
Absolutely the best written and most informative “News” and opinion on the blogosphere!
Also All the rest of you great writers here. . .you know who you are, and you know my effusive praise of you and your words are making everyone sick. . .so, just remember that I still think you are the very best!!
Shirl
of course Susan Hu and Booman!! (hanging head in shame for not saying that)
I felt the same liberal/progressive values I have lived particularly these last 15 years.
What I am beginning to see is the seeds of a group of individuals who despise americans and america, who blame all the worlds woo’s upon our culture and want us to join the hate america bandwagon.
I have many reasons to despise my country, yet I don’t, I know it is messed up right now, yet it has done many great goods over the course of our history. I also know that it is culpable for many wrongs, yet we have somehow righted our ship and taken a look at ourselves in many different lights within our history.
For now I am remaining here, yet I will not be called a war criminal by someone who has no idea of the amount of time and energy I have spent in volunteering to improve my community and my nation. I have fought long and hard to help bring change about within my nation and no person shall every get away with calling me a traitor or a war criminal.
I came close myself to doing a GBCW diary and completely devoting my time and efforts within my community, where at least it is not some faceless entity that will denigriate me as an american and a human being.
Ghost, I don’t quite know what to say to you or how to say it but I shall try and fingers crossed it will come out right.
Somehow we all have to come to terms with written words we do not agree with and allow them to pass through us and beyond and not allow them to find a home within to sear our hearts and souls.
I do not like to see the F word yet I see it day in and day out, I have to let that pass through me and cannot confront it everytime I see it and I do not judge others for their use of it as I was involved in same in past, but simply ignore it.
Simplistic view of a very complex situation I know, but perhaps one that can make the point.
I don’t want to wade into the particular discussion that evoked your pain, I fully understand how you feel. What shall we do Ghost…?
I see you as a leader, if you lead into anger, others will follow. Please do not follow the anger path.
These words were spoken from one elder to another, “my Brother”, in this life’s journey!
Oh my, please do not leave. All of us have legitimate criticisms of our government and the system.I don’t know what that discussion was about- and I don’t want to know. That stuff rolls off my back like water off a duck. Don’t let it get to you,there is a lot of anger out here.There is a great deal of love also.
What reasoning was used to call you a war criminal. Also were you talking about leaving America or the blog? I would certainly miss your blogging ghost dancer.
You must stay. The military are a tiny portion of the population. Many may not understand some things but more will understand by hearing your voice. The internet is a difficult forum at times too because we can’t be next to each other and look into each other’s eyes and know from where we all come. Whatever it takes to keep your voice present, please do…it is vitally important as this war wears on and it will wear away at us all too. Stay as strong as you can and just keep telling your truth. Many will need you before this is all over. Take breaks but stay in the game.
First, I wanted to say that you (along with many other beautiful souls who are nicely represented in this diary) are the reason I visit this site. I’ve shared my feelings regarding your diaries and comments, and I hope it’s been quite evident how much I respect you and how much I greatly value your presence. Heck, I go out of my way to seek it. In line with that, I’d be deeply saddened if you decided to leave.
Yesterday, I sent you a little note of support and indicated that I had actually written quite a lengthy comment that I subsequently chose not to post. (Which relates to much of what Diane has said today – in that I ultimately did not feel comfortable posting my opinions, and instead I left the site. I wouldn’t have felt that way a few months back, but that’s just me, and really neither here nor there in the scheme of things.)
Well. . .I saved my deleted comment in another application, and while I will not be posting it in whole, there was a closing comment I’m about to share, and it aligns with Diane’s post above. I sincerely hope you don’t take offense, because the comment was/is intended with the utmost respect.
“Ghostdancer, I hope I’m not crossing the line, but I have a minor request. You’ve put forth such tremendous efforts in sharing your powerful stories of spirituality, hope and forgiveness. . .that it saddened me a bit to see the wording in your post upthread. (While clearly understanding your outrage). I guess I view you as somewhat of a mentor and a leader on this site, and the comments above don’t reflect the peaceful, caring man I truly admire.” Peace
I’m glad you didn’t choose to bail, GDW. I find your voice an interesting and valuable one. I missed out on the giant ball of nastiness and have only been reading it in retrospect, and that’s probably a good thing. I’ve never served in the military myself but my mother, father, and stepmother all did, and most of their parents as well. I don’t know how well I would have held my temper had I read the diary in real time.
In retrospect, a more general comment on the diary that started all the nastiness it that it disappointed me. To be liberal is to try and understand the thinking of others and to learn to put yourself in their shoes, to keep an open mind. The diary struck me as having been written by someone who doesn’t actually know anyone in the military or understand the real reasons people sign up and, more telling, by someone who doesn’t actually want to know those people or to understand them. It was in many ways a closed minded diatribe and antithetical to what progressive thinking should be.
I hope that I am wrong and that it was the rage of the moment that drove the diarist to state things so baldly, so broadbrush, and so black and white. I’ve certainly felt enough rage over the state of America’s politics and leadership to make me do and say things I’ve regretted. But I try to remember that no matter how black and white I feel in a given moment, the world is not black and white. It’s an infinite number of colors and shades, and no one’s boots fit quite the way you think they might from the outside.
would have the most reason to hate America, because of what it has done to you and to your heritage.
Yet you stay, and you fight, and you share your wisdom with us, and now you prepare to share your wisdom with an even wider world as you consider running for public office.
I’m running out of words here, and the spouse would tell you that is a rarity so appreciate it while you can…but I admire your fighting spirit, sir, and want you to stay here so maybe I can pick up a piece of it…
Blessings and peace to you and yours…
is because of YOU, Ghostdancer. We are connected at the heart and soul of things in a way I have no words to describe. I call you my brother and I take every opportunity affored to sit in counsel with you.
It would be the gravest loss to this community if you were to leave. You are loved, respected and held in highest esteam here by most of us. Please allow this hurt to heal and stay among us if you can.
In all things, let there be love, peace and the guidance of the elders and Great Spirit.
My heart resides within you,
Shirl
Ah, Shirl. You are a healer.
I love your stories. I am sorry if you have felt rejected. I think maybe most of us haven’t put in the kinds of words of appreciation that would speak to your heart, but hear me now. You are a way shower. That is always uncomfortable because it means you have to bear the brunt of pain as first one. But this you were meant to do and this we need desparately from you.
Ghostdancer’s Way, your post takes me back to the early 1970’s. At that time, one of my best friends was a war criminal. He had served in the military, and his job was to watch a radar screen–traffic control for one leg of the flight path of sorties of B-52’s. Not even the bombing run. But he knew.
To be precise, he suspected. He did not have a great deal of conscious knowledge (the military tries to compartmentalize its most horrific activities) but already in his heart, there was not much room for doubt. So it was no suprise to him when the details came out–that the bombing was literally illegal (being waged against a country with which the US was not at war) and that targets were in fact civilians who died a hundred at a clip.
This is all very bitter. Did I call him a war criminal? Of course not: he knew better than I. And he knew as well as I, that I was not clean. He hated the war, (as I did) and both of us worked against it. (Did I mention we were angry? We were.) But did we do enough? No: Certainly no. Our omissions were, in the larger scheme, very small indeed. But we both knew better than to claim innocence. We weren’t.
Now, neither the reputation nor fate of America are in our hands. There is still plenty of room for correct action–indeed, choices are likely to be more arduous than ever! But others will judge, and that is beyond our purview or control.
Growing up the way I did, the Second World War was very much part of my life, even though I was born well after. For me the study of Nazi Germany was not an academic subject. Much of what America is doing right now–the relinquishing of civil liberties, the cultivation of hate, the submission to propaganda and terror, the denial, and the will not to know–is familiar to me from the history of Germany. Only now, I no longer look back on that history and ask, “how could it have happened,” for I am watching it happen.
At best, history provides an analogy. But who remembers now that just over a hundred years ago, Germany was the great center of Europe. Art, music, science, learning of all sort: It was there. It was the place to be. Who remembers those good things now? After two world wars, Germany’s reputation was destroyed.
That fate is now ours. We will like it no better than the Germans did when it came to them. They felt it was unfair. Arguably, it was unfair. But that was no help either.
Do you want to complain against our fate? I don’t, and yet I probably will anyway. Please accept leave to correct me then. Mainly, I hope that my actions will acquit themselves, and that I can accept judgement when it comes.
Without flinching.
the Sugar Maples are turning. It’s been a dry summer and there doesn’t seem to be as much color in their leaves as there usually is. The trees are usually brilliant and come one chilly October morning one can step out the door to a carpet of reds, crimsons, yellows, limes, vermilions and oranges. There doesn’t seem to be much of that so far this year. It’s still colorful but it takes years of watching to notice the slight differences.
The Swamp Maples on the other hand are finishing up doing their own red, crimson, yellow, lime, vermilion and orange thing. As they do, year in year out. Without fail.
There is always something doing.
There is always work to do.
requires looking back on occasion… It’s a matter of perspective.
American Lyceum
19th-century American association for popular instruction of adults by lectures, concerts, and other methods. Lyceum groups were concerned with the dissemination of information on the arts, sciences, history, and public affairs. The National American Lyceum (1831) developed from the lectures given by Josiah Holbrook at the first lyceum group in Millbury, Mass. (1826). The movement spread through groups formed in other states and was a powerful force in adult education, social reform, and political discussion. Many of the ablest leaders of the time lectured to lyceum audiences, and public interest in general education was greatly stimulated by the movement. The lyceum movement waned after the Civil War, but much of its work was later taken up by the Chautauqua movement. 1 See C. Bode, The American Lyceum (1956, repr. 1968).
See also:
http://www.bookrags.com/biography-josiah-holbrook/
Love you, Ghostdancer … whenever my “spirit” needs to be lifted, or challenged, I can count on you.
I could say a lot more, but that is really what blows me away about you.
Ghostdancer, Read the replies to your post carefully. Within those replies are some of the most beautiful words, the most heartfelt emotion, and true friendship I have ever read. Our reactions are a reflection of what we have received and felt from you.
I want you to stay, I hopy you will stay. Please be at peace, Ghostdancer.
engage in “flaming” — Internet defaming. Where once their ilk threw books that contained ideas they despised into the flames, now they “throw” commentators into the “flames.”
The beauty of the present age is while once you had no control over stopping books going into fires now you can choose not to self-immolate — that is, issue a GBCW diary. Or you can.
That’s another reason to be pro-choice!
AH, MAN, THIS IS GETTING WAY TOOOOOO SURREAL! I am not going to have a good week if you all do not stop this fussing. I for one have gotten to know each of you and your own personalality. I would simply be lost if you all decided to leave. My heart would simply break to know that you got discouraged and left. Please consider the way you, each of you, contribute to this site. Each of you must know that an honest discussion has to have different views for a discussion. If we all were alike, there would not be any interest in our opinions.
I have missed your diaries. That is as plain and simple as I can say it, GDW. Just know, from me anyhow, I do not want to see you go. If you do, we will be on the loosing end of this maddness.
This goes for any and all who think we will go on and not miss anyone who decides to leave. It is thru all of us that make up this site. We must do our very best to make it– what makes us want to get up and turn the pc on and read what you say. Whether we comment or not, you have given to us your wisdom and thoughts– that is worthy of anyones eyes for reading. Just remember this while you contimplate your decision. Remember what our moms use to tell us…”sticks and stones may break our bones, but words will never hurt me”. I know…foolish, but I have always tried to think of things like that when I get angry for some reason or the other. We need you to fight this government of ours that has taken us in such a wrong way. Stay and fight with us, if you will……we need your experience to get this done.
I came here at first to escape the hate and narrow-minded thinking all too common at the orange place. Then I found far more than I’d hoped for, and never looked back.
I loved that this place was a warm and accepting community. That the value of discourse wasn’t on whether it fit a particular ideology thought necessary to make electoral progress in purple and red states, but rather on examining what people really believed, and why they believed it. This led to many interesting discussions that would have been terminated early with cries of “freeper!” and “bullshit!” and infighting elsewhere.
The repeated purges elsewhere brought in more people and more diverse voices. Since feminists and others who thought women actually had a right to their own bodies and lives were in the first big wave of purges, this was a wonderful place to be for those of us in that camp. Finally, a place to speak about the “softer issues”, without being told we were cratering the Democratic party’s chances due to our unreasoning insistence on baby-killing or professional careers for women, or other such slanderous mischaracterization.
Since then, a lot has happened. Different purges brought in different folks with different passions. But all were welcomed. Katrina brought voices to the fore — angry voices. But we were all angry about Katrina, and the politeness (which some had earlier feared would be the death of this place) was temporarily displaced by outrage and anger and passion of our own.
I figure whenever a site gets big enough to develop cliques of people who generally share interests, and are willing to defend each other on principle, not on the weight of the arguments the people bring forth, and when these cliques become big enough to sustain themselves — that’s when the site becomes another orange mess.
In the beginning we were mostly one clique — the “not the orange site” clique. Most of us were simply proud to be part of something uniquely different. Some folks felt put upon by that thinking, and they left. But Boo and Susan and others kept those flare-ups to a minimum, and we’ve survived as a community.
It concerns me that a few folks have commented elsewhere they feel afraid to post sometimes. It bothers me that at least a few of those same folks are the ones I’ve seen breaking the harmony, and posting comments “calling out” other posters in other threads.
I’m worried we’re could start devolving into cliques.
That frightens me. I’ve seen people who I’ve agreed with 100% in the past post some things I very much disagree with recently. I’m not at all afraid to not only not defend their positions, but in fact to post my own views that contradict them. I refuse to be subsumed into a clique.
That path leads to self-censorship. If we can’t post our own opinions, what good is this place? If we can only post what will be found pleasing to others, is that even healthy?
On the other extreme, I fear that clique on clique conflict could break out. We don’t need “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” thinking here. We each have a brain, and we’re obligated to use it on friend and foe alike.
This all bothers me greatly.
I came here for the peace and quiet, but also for the intellectual honesty of actual debate of the issues.
If we sacrifice one for the other, we’ll lose something of what made this place great!
If you are referring to my diary that “called out” two posters who have been insulting members of the community as being part of a clique, then I just don’t know what to say.
I reacted emotionally, but I actually had some pretty valid points to debate. And a debate and discussion has ensued. We are talking to each other about what it means to be in the military, what being American is about, what it means to oppose atrocities, you name it. It’s all happening. So maybe you don’t agree with my tactics, but it’s not all for naught. To ensure we don’t turn into the “orange place”, we need to be able to disagree. Did anyone give anyone a troll rating in my diary? No. We debated each other.
Yeah, emotions are running high, but if we just let it fester, instead of discussing it, we will turn into a den of cynics. Part of what makes BooTrib special is the diversity of voices and respectful discourse. Did I engage in respectful discourse in my original diary? Nope, but I was making a contrarian point. And it’s turning out okay I think for the community… discussion is happening, we are talking to each other vs. at each other.
But that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
I just wish it could have been done without the seeming emotional blackmail of a GBCW, is all. Otherwise, heck, its all part of the debate, isn’t it?
Myself (as I posted in your diary), I think Stu’s diary and Fatwa’s comments were also being contrarian (perhaps aggressively so), creating a discussion, etc. I can’t help but think that diary was a good thing — it got this place talking about the realities and horrors and futileness of the war in a way say the Daily Iraq Watch series of diaries has stopped doing along the way.
But I was taking Diane’s diary at face value, and kind of hoped to hear more from other folks about how they feel about BooTrib, and sharing my own take — aside from the particulars of this most recent flare up.
Trust me, there have been waves even before you posted your diary. They often centered on a few posters I think liven this place up. I fear we may end up forcing these voices out if we react directly to the calls yourself and others have made the last couple weeks. That would be very wrong, I think.
But that doesn’t address the fact that more than a few people feel the way you did when you posted your diary, or similiarly, long before this last incident. And I don’t want those folks to self-censor or leave either, you included.
I was hoping Diane’s diary here would help us figure out what’s really going on, and maybe find a way to agree to all get along.
I’d hate to lose that by diving into the particulars of any of the recent disagreements and losing site of the bigger happenings.
I hope we can reserve the same rights to be a bit not exactly respectful and contrarian that you took when you posted your diary, or that I’ve taken when posting some of my comments in recent memory, for everyone whether we agree with their opinions or not.
But then, I happen to think “Political Correctness” was one of the best intentioned and yet most misguided and arrogantly stupid things we liberals have ever participated in as a group. We opened the door for today’s acceptance of thought-police by declaring it necessary for civil discussion. We can’t unring that bell, but can’t we avoid doing that again here on the blogs?
Restraints on what we think are very bad. Restraints on how we say it are necessary for the community to function. The devil is in the details.
Those are great sentiments, but excluding me from the debate because I happen to take your comments at face value, considering your responses in my diary, seems to be contrary to the spirit of determing what is happening on the site.
spiderleaf, I don’t want to fight with you. I don’t want to exclude you from the debate, either. I have no idea which comments of mine you’re taking at face value — I think I’ve written 5000 words yesterday and today alone on this site.
I think we both agree that this place needs to be civil in order to survive. I disagree that things were as uncivil as you and a few others took them to be yesterday, but thankfully I’m not the final arbiter of that standard. But I certainly acknowledge that you and others felt that way all the same.
I’m really not sure what you think would improve civility on this site. Digging into the events of yesterday and what caused them, and why the feelings are valid may be required for some. I already know the feelings were valid simply because members of this community said they were. That’s good enough for me.
I’m still more interested on Diane’s original questions — and wondering what you would suggest are the problems on the site, and what you think could be done to improve it.
(if there is more discussion that is just between you and I, we should probably take it offline. If it is of a more general interest, we should open it up to involve others. Either way, I’m not sure its on-topic in this discussion anymore, but if it is, please continue).
“Did anyone give anyone a troll rating in my diary? No.”
See, there you go again. Perfect opportunity to give me some props, a little bit of attention, but no. . .
Good night! ;^)
well, it was one of those ‘type and erase moments’ cause I figured since you took it back it didn’t really count 🙂
and it ruined my point… ;P
Fess up anom, tell the truth, don’t leave the mystery out there for all to wonder at your words and BTW nice to see you out and about again.
Hello, m’dear,
Great idea posting this diary. . .
As for me. . .I think I’ve already said everything I have to say when posed these questions in the past. Right now I’m feeling a bit like the song lyric “. . .and I’m wasted, and I can’t – find – my – way – home.” (I’m merely wasted in spirit, but I am trying to find my way home at the moment.)
Yaright eloquently stated things, and got me thinking. I tend to agree with the cliqueishness somewhat, and that got me to thinking some more. If I understood Yaright correctly, there are some members who might be blindly loyal to others, even when their buddy isn’t making such a strong point. And it made me wonder whether I sometimes do that. I don’t think so, but I also came to realize that maybe some of us have known each other for quite some time now, and maybe someone knows what someone else is trying to say, just from familiarity with that person’s past writing. (In other words, what appears to be cliqueishness might be related to familiarity rather than group think. I don’t know.)
Or maybe I’m just getting lazy. Last night I delighted in running across cskendrick’s diary, (albeit on another site) and this morning I was thrilled to see the diary over here, because it deserved a Recommend and some kudos. Well, the thing is, I have quite a few opinions, lots of experience and many anecdotes on the subject, but I’ve shared many of those thoughts in other diaries over the months. I didn’t want to repeat myself, but another part of me wanted to avoid the potential of debate. I’m not talking conflict. I’m not talking getting ripped on. I’m talking nice, civil discourse. Strange as that may sound, given the various growth spurts over the past months, I no longer know the audience, and I’m finding more frequently that I simply don’t understand the point of some writings or the perspective of the writer. (Which, quite frankly, is what drew me in to yesterday’s diary in question. I didn’t really understand the point, and I was interested to see what others had interpreted the writing to mean, and how they would react to it.) Anyway, I think that general feeling has held me back from writing. I don’t know.
In general, it’s kind of like that sick feeling you get when you enter the first day of school, and whether you’ll be accepted or not. Well, for me it is. And the larger the group, the higher the potential that someone out there will take exception to a quirk or a writing style or heck – content ;^). So I also dialed it way back with my former habit of derailing diaries, which admittedly, even annoyed myself :^). And now that I think of it, you used to laugh at my habit of finishing work late at night then coming over here to sprinkle comments throughout the diaries, all alone, conversing with myself. Or responding to dialogues I hadn’t realized had ended days before. (Oh man. . .then there was all that splainin’ and backtracking I’d have to do afterwards. . . :^)
Maybe it’s the current events coming at us all at once, or helplessness, or too much rehashing, or just the state of affairs in my real life. But truth be told, I’m just a slow-paced kinda gal, and within the spectrum of blogs, I’m probably most comfortable at a little place called Village Blue. But here again, quirks be told, I’m somewhat uncomfortable on sites that announce who’s currently online. Like, um, what if I just need the comfort of reading a friend’s words, but everyone else online knows I’m there, and it would seem rude if I didn’t write anything, so I get all worked up just thinking about that, like I did during that brief period when I attempted to use IM several years back. YIKES, the pressure! ;^)
Well, that was a whole lotta rambling with little results. (Thankfully my husband came home with a pot of wonderful soup from his mom’s house, so I’m carefree as far as cooking dinner is concerned.) Oh hell, as long as I’ve rambled on this far, and I haven’t derailed a diary in so long, I’m going to indulge myself and share an anecdote. (Assuming, of course, I didn’t lose you after “hello”)
The thought of cooking dinner on a Sunday evening in the fall brought this memory to mind. My husband and I moved into our home when I was 30, and we quickly became friends with our next door neighbors and their two young children. The kids would come over to chat when I gardened, and soon they’d stop by with their friends. Well, one Sunday evening, a group of 8-10 children (in the age range of 5-7), came knocking at my front door. Much to my surprise, there were no scout cookies or fundraisers involved. Rather, they asked me if I wanted to come out to play. When I explained that I had to make dinner, they all looked at me quite quizically, till one of them asked (with a great deal of confusion in her face), “You’re the one who cooks dinner at your house?” Apparently, they thought I was just one of the kids. It was one of those really big “smile moments” until I realized that the neighborhood parents were starting to converge, wondering why their children were talking to “the strange woman”. And there again. . .my oh my – all that splainin’ I had to do afterward. ;^)
Okay, you asked me to participate, and that I did. And now, I really must call it a night. (Because, um, what would I do if you responded to this comment? . . .;^)
Good night! A pleasant evening to you and to all! Peace, hope, prosperity.
Oh my friend, how I do love your comments, and of course you knew I would respond and if I know you even a little you will repond to me.
Can I perhaps give you an invisible name on Village Blue, which no one even know by the way, secondly if you have been on the site it stays on there for 1 day, so even if you think someone is on site, you do not know….
I think the ratings over all can have a negative effect when someone in an argument gets a 4 and the other doesn’t and I usually don’t give any ratings during a heated debate so as not to take side which is difficult anyway as I may agree in part but not all, but what do I need to get into that haggeling that I then become a part of.
Darn, lady. . .you crack me up! Never willing to let me weasel out of anything. Last night I figured if I just kept typing, I was bound to lose you along the way (kidding!)
My dear, you certainly don’t need to consider special arrangements on VB to meet my personal needs, but that was an incredibly thoughtful offer and I thank you for it. (But how cool would that be? I’d feel like a super-hero if I had my own “invisible name” ;^)
You make an excellent point regarding ratings, and believe it or not, I’ve tried to follow those principles. But hard as I try, occasionally I get caught up in the moment, and find myself “taking sides”. And you’re right, I shouldn’t – because it can just fuel the flames or contribute to hurt feelings. (And the last thing I want to do is “put out fires with gasoline”)
Speaking of ratings in general, they can create oh so many problems. I mess up constantly – rating comments throughout a diary then forgetting to hit “rate all” before I leave. Or thinking I’ve rated comments, only to find out later that I hadn’t – for whatever technical or memory issues may have been in play at the time. I realize I lean toward the sensitive side, but I know firsthand how much it hurts when you contribute what you thought was something quite valuable, and you’re the only commentor in a thread who isn’t acknowledged (through ratings and/or comments from the diarist). It makes me wonder if I’ve unknowingly offended other members, or if I’m not welcome, or if I’m not accepted within the “cool crowds”. It also makes me question the value of my participation, which again, makes me hesitant to post. I know that might sound incredibly juvenile, but it’s simply human nature to feel hurt when it seems you’re being rejected.
Son of a gun . . . case in point. I just read all the comments above, lavishly distributed fours, and I just blew it by stopping to write this comment. Options: Go back and rerate the posts, or continue on. (This happens every damn time I visit the site) Under the circumstances, I think I’ll be retracing my steps.
Thanks again for your kind words and thoughtful gestures – and bless you for being here.
Wishing everyone a fabulous, joyful day.
also, if I lost your respect, I am sorry for it. but what can I say, people lose their tempers… on both sides of the issue.
we all have those dark ‘n nasty thoughts from time to time. and some things are simply best left unsaid. it’s just a fact of life. at least that’s my philosophy.
and since i’m in here anyway, i feel compelled to say “no fair!” regarding your mischaracterization of purges from the orangeness.
the dkossers abandoning ship over the pie fight and the naral episodes constituted an exodus more than a purge. they were not told or asked to leave the site, nor were they banned from it. yes, “if you don’t like it, here’s the door,” was presented, but the choice remained theirs and they were welcome to stay if they wished to do so. that is not a purge.
i’m not saying that any one perspective in those episodes was the right one, nor am i picking sides or defending anyone. i’m just saying that it isn’t fair or accurate to conflate the banning of accounts with the pie fight kerfuffle.
Ah, but I do so very much disagree with your take, which I’m inclined to think of as revisionist.
To stick strictly to the facts, you are right, the pie “kerfluffle” (after all, the myth that women could feel objectified and demeaned by the ads, but more importantly by the reaction of the site “leaders” is clearly deserving of a cute harmless sounding name like “kerfluffle”, eh? </snark>) was just people voluntarily leaving.
Of course, that not ridding the holy orange site of enough heathens, it was necessary to resort to unprecedented mass bannings in future incidents.
You say tomato, I say sexist tomato.
Lets call the whole thing off.
“kerfluffle” (after all, the myth that women could feel objectified and demeaned by the ads, but more importantly by the reaction of the site “leaders” is clearly deserving of a cute harmless sounding name like “kerfluffle”, eh?
is not snark. it’s sanctimonious bullshit. you were in so much of a rush to villianize my opinion, presume to know my sentiment and judge me, you added an l to “kerfuffle.” both times.
i think that speaks volumes.
I am one of the people who came because Kos or more probably one of his primadonnas at next hurrah decided I wasn’t a worthy kossack anymore. I was kicked off for recommending a diary that argued that “some” conspiracy theories have turned out to be true, like the standard oil conspiracy that created the sherman antitrust act. I was summarily banned as a “conspiracy theorist” and never readmitted even after the request. I was also banned another time for a tangle I had with DHinMi of the “next hurrah” blog primadonnas, that kos has allowed to run roughshot over everyone.
I have no problem with the site other than wishing more of the “nice” kossacks would find their way here. I posted a lot of diaries a while back, most of which can be found at my blog, but I am kind of taking a break.
sexist are on Booman. I stayed at Booman because it is populated with cute guys who aren’t sexist. I post diaries on Booman because cute guys who aren’t sexist reply to them. It is very cool!
So finally we see the real Tracy, who would have known????
I am glad you came and stayed even if it was for the cute guys!!!
And furthermore_AHA Tracy! Now we KNOW!
Tracy, have I told you lately how much I love your diaries? Have I told you lately how I just can’t wait to reply to your diaries and comments?
;o)
I came here,not as a Kos refugee,since I had already given up on the Orange Place as a forum,and left it to the juveniles.
I came because I saw the funny announcements and was curious,plus I always liked Booman’s comment over there.
And, I found here,an amazing community of caring,thoughtful people,just what I always thought the net’s potential could foster.
A side note– Each day when hub arrives home he asks ” So what are your people up to?”. That says a lot,right there.
I fell off the monkey bars at DKos, and when I woke up, I was in here.
That still doesn’t explain why you stayed and I am very curious about that as you don’t seem to like the place very much. So would you mind telling us why you do stay….
Who said I didn’t like the place very much? Is this your way of inviting me to leave, Diane101? Because if you do, I shall have to settle in for a good long stay.
But no, shadow, not at all, I just was simply referring to a comment you made earlier today on another thread to the effect of “what do you expect from this bunch” and I have read others that led me to think you were not that happy with a lot of posters on the site or the tone. That is the tone I got from you..
Have you ever told us about you shadow, I can’t recall, but perhaps you might do so now to give us a short bio so we can come to understand you better.
I am sincere in this request.
PS if you thought I would want you to leave and that would make you want to stay, I see I have perfected ‘reverse psychology’!
I think I came for the Cafe, only I didn’t know it at the time, because you hadn’t invented it yet.
I think you did too kansas as you took to the cafe as a duck takes to water. So glad your esp was working and you found your way here.
Thank you!
I came here after kos demonstrated his true colours during the “pie wars”, looking for a political site where debate and discussion were encouraged rather than bland conformity. For the most part, Booman has provided this. The people here are generally accepting of diverse beliefs, and willing to argue about the ups and downs of certain points of view. The exceptions are when a kossak swings by, expecting a “rustic” version of its home blog, and starts gaping in disbelief at the fact that we aren’t marching in lockstep and saluting the party line.
Fortunately, they generally leave fast.
Oh, and as for the military thing, there is a very concise way to sum it up… The modern military hammers people into swords. So read the sig, and think about what you’d rather have. An army of swords, or an army of warriors?
Time for some emoticons, eh!
but I stayed because this is simply the best blog out there. The diaries are well researched and written, the scope of discussion is larger and more accepting and the moderator is a rare human being- the kind who acts on his values even if sometimes it doesn’t work out the way he might have wished.
BooMan has the best tone and mature discussion. I’ve looked around, but this is home.
… and still post elsewhere… but a lot of the people I liked to read, respected, and learned from started posting here and not elsewhere so I decided to come here too.
I have been busy with local elections and have been very selective in posts I’ve been reading recently. I really don’t have much of a clue what all the current hoopla is about except for glancing at and discarding Stu Piddy’s recent missive and reading and responding to Spiderleafs GCW diary. Other than that I am in my normal state of cluelessness. I like it here.
Can I have some more pie please?
answer wisely 😉
Answer D: All of the above
and blueberry, pecan, and lemon maringue too.
You know, I’m a strawberry-rhubarb person…
an ever increasing number of the diaries over at Kos that I felt were worth recommending or commenting in were cross posted here, and because many of the names associated with those diaries were also names I saw attached to some of the better and more reasoned comments over there. Unlike many here I still hang out at Kos, though I rarely ever comment since I crossed over to Booman. I’ve stayed because I see more real debate and conversation going on here, and because I’ve found this to be an incredibly welcoming environment. Mind you, it’s hard to claim I’ve “stayed” as I’ve only been here a very brief time, but I do intend on staying.
You stayed, you stayed, I declare and I am glad, even if only for this short while, it all counts. I see in you a staunch supporter of the site..from your first comments……are you a Taurus….maybe we should all list our signs????
This is exactly what I mean about this being a welcoming site. This is a good place. Leo, BTW.
I came as a refugee from somewhere else. I came to try to find a place where RATIONAL, CIVIL, discourse could happen. I stay because, for the most part, it has been that and a whole lot more. Occasional flare-ups are one thing, but concerted efforts by the members and the leaders of a blog to stomp out a point of view are another thing entirely.
SO far, we are doing well, I think. I would like to see more restraint between correspondents when the issues are difficult or when someone is using the broad brush incorrectly, but I’m not insisting on perfection. It’s easy to take things personally, but it usually works to your disadvantage to do so. I advocate walking away from ill-mannered diaries and comments. If an offensive diary just scrolls away into oblivion, it does less harm than if it gets under someone’s skin and starts a flame war.
It’s easier said than done, though. I know because I am also guilty of posting a few ill-worded and badly motivated comments from time to time. But I do hope to grow out of that soon!
:O)
ya know Brenda, one of my very favorite “standard” tunes is “Stormy Weather”. I love the Billy Holiday version. Have you heard it?
Ya bet I have!!! love it lots…that is where I got my handle…..thanks….
She brought me. Her writing really impressed me when she would post at Dkos (especially compared to some centrist folks at other blogs who I won’t name).
I like it that views can be aired without massive flaming (however, BoomanT probably hasn’t been targeted by the massive freep trolls yet which is what made DKos turn so crass I am sure).
Of course, I like it that folks are a bit more like-minded in a liberal context.
I like that the many established bloggers cross-post hear, so legitimacy helps a lot of course.
Geez, I take a break from the computer for a day or two and I completely miss the dust-up.
I, too, came over during pie. There are a lot of dicks over there, also, it’s just gotten way too big and anonymous and I like something where you can get to “know” each other a little better.
I loved the Trib right from the start, but, to be honest, I felt it was a little too reserved, a little too sweet sometimes with people afraid to disagree lest the frog pond turn into the orange place.
Thank goodness we can celebrate the differences here and not be dicks about it, at least most of the time. What I’ve learned the last couple of years living here in the south is that you can say the most horrible, insulting thing as long as you follow it up with “bless your heart.”
For instance you can say “all you Americans are fascist pigs and you follow your evil president around like sheep, bless your hearts.”
See, isn’t that much better?
Laura I just adorded your line adding “Bless your Heart”, to any negative statement, good replacement for the “just kidding” hard to use one, especially on a blog. Imagine comments followed up with “just kidding”.
Laura I am glad you got back online just in time for this discussion..We missed you.
Diane, I feel like a fish out of water here in the south but I have sure learned how to insult people with a sweet smile on my face.
I heard a very genteel older woman say the other day “she has a face like a horse, doesn’t she?… bless her heart.”
im finally home from 2 weeks away from computers and real news other than terror threats on subways and storm warnings…and im too pooped to write much as i flit around the blogs to see what i missed…but before i go shower the travel grime off i wanted to comment on this question.
i came because kos (the site not just the person) was pissing me off and i was linking around to see what else was up and out there…i stay because the overall attitude is more graceful…thats all i really want…good intelligent conversation (which you can get in many places) by people who respect each other enough to act (type) with grace….as far as i am concerned this comes directly from the blog front pagers…they set the tone….i havent stopped going to kos or other blogs…but my soul is fed in a more positive way from this blog (thats a big thank you to the diarists and booman)
the thing i think is missing from almost every political blog out there is sex….not porn and pie….i like those too but i mean more discussion on sexual politics…personally i think every issue comes down to the sexual/spiritual…in my mind they are the same….im too distracted to do much about it myself like update my own blog regularly or even contribute to the other blogs i read…when i retire with my porn millions i will have more time for that i hope.
Well, I signed up with BooTrib the day BooMan announced it over at the Orange Empire (hence my fortune in getting a 2-digit UID!), but wasn’t really active here till several months ago. Yes, the “pie fight”. I missed most of the hoohaw (there are benefits to having a Real Life at times), but when I logged back on, I found that many of the voices I loved and respected had come over here, so I basically followed the herd.
I’m overall happy with the site; I’ve been sort of staying out of the current controversies (I’m one of the concilatory types that wants to get along with all sides), and I’ve learned that if there’s a diary that upsets me, it means it’s pushed my buttons so I click out and work out the issues that are bugging me.
I enjoy the fact that diaries don’t disappear as quickly as they do on other sites, so I have more time to digest the information and formulate a response when desired.
Can’t think of anything I want changed off the top of my head…
This is a great diary, Diane — with new people arriving, old people taking a break, and the anticipation of indictments in the air, it’s good to take stock of where we’ve been, where we are, and where we’re going…
Arrived in early June in the great influx. Signed up because two women immediately made it clear this place was different with their warm and unflagging welcome. Stayed because the enlightened discourse here, while spirited at times, always remained civil. Have continued to stay, despite the erosion of that civility, for one reason: loyalty. Loyalty to some specific posters at this site, and loyalty also to the idea that this site doesn’t have to be like other political blogs, where political discourse must either flow along exactly-prescribed dogmatic lines, or else dissolve into an endless back-and-forth of puerile bickering. Pretty stupid reason, ain’t it?
No it’s not stupid! Please be kidding! If we’re not loyal to the idea of excellence and civility here, the site will degenerate very quickly. I don’t think we’ve reached the point of no return.
No worries — just me being self-deprecating again. I don’t think we’ve reached a point of no return either, perhaps just a swing of the pendulum. Or perhaps it’s simply part of the natural evolution of online communities. Ultimately what will happen to this community will be what we collectively — if unconsciously — decide will happen to it. Discussions like this will help ensure those decisions are made with a modicum of self-awareness.
I came here from dkos because people whose writing I admired posted here — susanhu, Ductape Fatwa, Sirocco, among lots of others.
But I would be lying if I said that Donna Brazile, anti-immigration sentiment and pie did not all play a part in where I chose to spend my time.
I haven’t so much stayed as come back — I was on hiatus during the summer for practical reasons. But I must admit, I’m finding it harder and harder to write things that are transparently political. Lately I have a hard time working out what a colonial subject might have to say to her imperial masters, or indeed, if there is anything left to say. And the urge to self-censor is powerful.
I am a nurse who has been in the military…not once but twice. I loved the military, but had a family to raise by myself..cause a divorce. I wanted what is best for all in concern in my family. So you folks can see why I stand with the military diarys for the most part.
Now I came as a dispute over at kos, of which I became a big part of. I do not apologige for my feelings on things I feel strongly about. I am woman and hear me roar! plain and simple.
I found the frog pond as a sight I once belonged to and was terminated. It included not only medical ppl, but patients and others. We had a rip roaring time and I simply loved it. This sight reminds me of that place.
I will stay here till I get kicked off…so just you try!!!!!!!!!….:o)
I respect most everyone opinion on matters. It is theirs and theirs only. I hope the favor is returned for me too.
I do not want distention ever…being a prick is the only rule Marvin has given to us and that is a must to follow. I can be one if I allow myself to become one. I just have to restrain myself and sometimes that can be very hard….This is like a family here…we can argue amongt ourselves and but do not and I mean do not ever try to harm any one here for we will simply take you out behind the shed!!!!!
Seriously, I have learned so much here! I need this ploace to keep me informed and updated on things…in the process, I become updated on the family as well…this is just a gritutity I never thought I would have again.
I think a lot of each of you hear. NO matter what your opinion should be I really respect your opinion. When I disagree with someone, I might say so, but for the most part, I jsut leave it like that and go on my way….for heavens sake, Kids, this is life! I am selfish this way tho, I want you all here and we can discuss and rehash things and still get along…after all arent we all adults??!!
I was engaged to marry a man..a vietnam vet of course, and he also felt like he wanted to leave America to live. I told him, I would not go…well the rest is history. we split and he went his way and never left the USA and I went my way. So you see it does happen in real life..This man and I are still friends and that is all. I understood where he was coming from, but I disagreed and he simply could nto stand to have anyone disagree with him. Sorry Charlie..that is life.
My kids and I have disagreements on things and mostly politics, but they are not angry with me for my opinions and I likewise with them. When loving one another really means loving, it is just that way, dont you see??!!!
I have fun here and still learn. I love the skills and talents of you all. The way you think has opened up a world for me that I would be not aware of if it werent for this site.
I will stay and go on being who I am and why I remain is cuz I love it here. I can not and will nto beg anyone to stay! you all are adult. I will lat you know how sad I will be when you leave. That is all.
Now can we get this all out int he op[en and get it done and over with so we can try hard to save what is left of America. It will take us all to get this job done. In the mean time, can we still have some fun in the process?
That is why I came and that is why I will stay.
PS: please excuse me for not proof reading my post and spellchecking it. This topic has really gotten me upset.
sorry brenda, for the part I played in making you upset.
spiderleaf, I am an adult. I can handle this world. I have now for over 60 years. You and others here are why I stay. I can not retirieve things like you all can. I can not write diaries like you all can. This is why I came and stay.
I can live without things in my life if need be, but why if not need be?
I am who I am and that is just me. I am not easily hurt. It really takes a lot to upset me on a personal basis. When it comes to anyone in here, I will fight to the death for them…Always remember this when you wonder about my sanity …..:o)
The last I remember, my mother did not promise me a rose garden and I do nto expect one, but a rose from time to time is a good thing….
Hugs to each of you…..and I really mean this…even bill who was being who he is over on your other diary.
Spider, you did not hurt my feelings at all…
It’s mellow, it’s nice, and I’ve been recommended a few times more than I was over at the Other Blog.
I think this blog seems more progressive though, although the proprietor swears he’s not. (I think that he is.)
I’m heard here. Thanks for all your good words.
but this place seems to attract people who are more progressive, and it’s the participants that make the site work; Boo is just one of many coordinators, and the guy that pays the bills. (Reminds me, got to head back over and see how many more books I can find at Powells…)
Plus, I still think that the color has a lot to do with it; green is more calming than orange IMHO…
..and that is the way it should be, sista….always….I will hear ya, girlfriend…I guess you could describe me as a progressive Independent….:o)
Why I came: Booman’s and Susan’s excellent posts on DKos made me want to read more.
Why I stayed: I felt welcomed by Diane et al. Then when the pie fights broke out I found the overall political and social sensibility expressed by the pioneers and “refugees” here suited me very well: smart, leftist, feminist, cooperative, non-competitive. In contrast DKos seems increasingly and irritatingly centrist, macho, competitive. So though I still browse around at Kos occasionally, BooTrib took its place as my regular blog hangout.
“Don’t be a prick” — it worked for a while but the boundaries of what’s not prick-y are not clear. I think when people are personally called out in diaries or comments, we cross the boundary of prick-dom. Personal slurs will destroy what’s been built here. If something seems like a personal attack we have to try to remain civil and work it out and if necessary, agree to disagree. We don’t all have to agree here.
I am writing to you over here because the Bill thing took out the thread, I can’t see hidden comments either, they disappeared when boo made some changes awhile back…
Meanwhile to Alert Susan or Boo…Bill is giving a lot of 1’s around the site so…..
Well, I don’t care about it all that much, I noticed a while back that the “Hidden Comments” link had been removed from the front page, but I didn’t think that meant that trusted users would not be able to see them IN the thread…
I guess I will just make it a point not to post anything to any trolls who might come along so as to avoid having my comments “disappeared” — that kind of sucks.
But, hey, it’s Boo’s site he can do whatever he wants — just wish the changes would have been made clear…
actually, I’m not sure why the hidden comments disappeared and have been meaning to figure it out, but he have so few that it hasn’t been worth me time until recently.
I’ll try to figure it out now that we have some.
I remember that MSOC and pacified aka soapblox had this problem a while back as well at MLW — I know the software is not the same, but they may be able to provide some insight into how they solved it….just an idea.
I too came because of the pie wars. nuf said.
I stayed for several reasons. One is that subjects addressed here range from Boo’s current diary about how we got into Iraq and all the info about Plamegate (I’m addicted to that story right now) to Scribe’s latest about balance and the now famous “Two Wolves” diary by Infidelpig. After all – the personal is the policitcal.
If there is one thing I would change, its that when people get angry at someone’s expressed thoughts, they would let them know, but refrain from assigning motives and/or question integrity. Since all we know of each other is the written word, I would hope that we could stick to what’s actually said (or written in this case). And yes, tone is important. A little humility goes a long way. None of us know it all – much less each other THAT well. (Of course with the exception of how well Militarytracy knows Booman after the infamous night in the hotel room!!)
BooMan didn’t ban me, and I have this secret hope that one day the Prozac people will kick me back a little somepm somepm for increasing his consumption.
I was also impressed with Susan’s willingness not only to post diaries about divisive wedge issues like torture, but to call up armies of like-minded militants to decipher scrawls in huge pdf documents.
Also, I like the open-mindedness, while there is certainly no shortage of devotees of this or that rich politician, there is also a much larger cadre of readers and thinkers than one finds on message boards more fervently dedicated to making rich men richer so that massacres can have better sounding names than “Iron Fist.”
And for purely selfish reasons. Maybe once in a while I could make someone think, and in the current situation, that could save a life.
With all due respect, I’d like to ask a question. After reading lots of your stuff lately (some of which agree with and some not so much), I wonder if you ever allow for the possibility that you might also learn something from participating here? Your tone can come across patronizing. But since I don’t get a sense of you – I don’t know if thats your intent.
and at my age, a generous dollop of pardonable pride, that I learn multiple somethings every day, here and there and everywhere I go, in both cyberspace and meatspace. 🙂
For some reason (probably too deep to psychoanalyze here) I needed to know that.
I stayed because…
And let me add my feelings about this current dust-up: Attack the opinion not the person. And, never, ever take someone’s opinion as a personal insult. If someone says, all white people are racists, by all means comment that you are white and not a racist. But, don’t start telling the diarist that they have personally offended you and how dare they have that opinion and they better never express that opinion again within your sight. That is intimidation and the death of free and open expression. They have formed that opinion based on their own experience and POV and however wrong it may be — let them say it! Respectfully disagree and present your side of it but don’t ever say someone should STFU.
When I see people take offense at someone else’s opinion I wonder why they “own” it, why they take it so personally. It looks like there’s some small kernal of truth that they recognize and then react with angry defensiveness. Generalizations are rhetorical devices, nothing more, nothing less. They’re only personally insulting if you let them get under your skin thru that paper cut where you think they might be true. Otherwise, you’d let them roll off, wouldn’t you?
sjct, I respect your opinion, and in no way do I assume you are speaking only of me, but I think there are lines that can be crossed with people that it is then hard to shut off from.
for example, telling someone they are not only white racists, and after you say “I am not”, they tell you that not only are you a white racist, but you are raising your children to be racists, you have no redeeming qualities and that you are enslaving your neighbours. It’s tough to allow that to pass as acceptable discourse.
But generalizing goes both ways.
And there is of course always a better way of getting your point across. For everyone.
There are at least a couple of other people who seem more pissed off that you do. LOL.
When you’ve said, “I am not” and someone continues to condemn you all you have to say is, “I think you’re wrong,” and leave the thread. Leave it. Let it die. Don’t feed it. Don’t build it into a drama. Let it slide into oblivion where it deserves to be.
Let me confess that I didn’t read the thread in question. I read the first few paragraphs of that diary and clicked on to something else more worthwhile. You do realize that my husband is a Vietnam Vet and I love him even tho he did commit war crimes <snark>…
Do you understand what I’m saying? Vote/Recommend the worthwhile and ignore the rest. Even when a bunch of people propel crap to the top of the Recommended List, if it’s crap to me, I ignore it. In other words, if you’ve got nothing constructive to say then don’t say it. Buying into the idea that some people shouldn’t say what they think is the wrong direction.
And neither is ghostdancer.
Your anger is such a good and hopeful sign, I don’t mind a bit that it is misdirected. In fact, I welcome it, I urge you to embrace it.
Now we both know that George Bush does not write the words he says, he repeats after his earpiece.
And when he repeated after his earpiece that you are with (US and its policies) or against us, he was in a way, quite right.
As is the Christian Bible, in a way, when it says one cannot serve God and Mammon.
While most of the world just sort of gaped in astonishment at the discovery that we are terrorists, a term we had previously thought of as something rather negative, Bush’s succinct sum-up put Americans in a very difficult position.
And the best and the brightest of them have been angry ever since, to your credit. Some are not even sure exactly what they’re angry at.
In the last few years, Americans have had the opportunity, due to advances in technology, to learn a lot more about their country than ever before. Not all take advantage of it, but for the ones who do, it can be a strange and painful experience, and it adds insult to injury to have me or anybody else come along and just sort of take it for granted that everybody knows these things.
Ghostdancer was hit hard by the suggestion that his children will grow up to be war criminals.
But it is not me he is mad at. He might just be remembering the other day when Donald Rumsfeld said the same thing. Oh he didn’t use those exact words, but Washington has been very candid about the fact that war crimes are US policy, and Rumsfeld was very candid when he promised decades of “war.”
What really makes Ghostdancer mad is the knowledge that Rumsfeld has had his hand in US policy pie for decades, and like you, he is furious about that.
Like you, he is intelligent enough to realize that there are very few Americans who are interested in storming the White House, yet the only way to stop the Juggernaut is exactly that, or something equally drastic. Most Americans, when they hear Rumsfeld, don’t think in terms of the little seven year old asleep in his Spiderman pajamas growing up to force water up the nose of a sheep farmer down in Gitmo. Or going to jail for refusing to do so.
Neither you nor he are fooled by glib-tongued designer suited politicians who tell you that the benighted unfortunates in the land of oil will change their tune and be grateful to have their family members tortured by soldiers wearing different hats, or that Iraqi mothers will not object to their homes being bombed if the operation is called something prettier than “Iron Fist.”
With your ability to see the big picture, from the transition to single industry feudalism, whose most recent production, the famous bankruptcy bill, and its little dog the doubled credit card payments, just as the stars of this week’s show, you know that there will be many millions of American parents whose children will not have many career choices beyond either Wal-slave or Abu Ghraib guard. And by the time they grow up, a great swath of earth will be one big Abu Ghraib, unless, again, of course something happens to stop it.
And none of the options for stopping it are pretty, or comfortable, especially not for folks who just a short time ago were thinking that their government was there to protect them, to serve their interests.
Feelings of conflict and anger are a healthy reaction to an unhealthy situation, just not one created by me, or solvable by me.
How the situation will resolve is up to the American people. There are decisions to be made, hard, uncomfortable choices that will decide the future not only of their children, but of their children’s children.
The situation is at a critical point, and how long the American people have to make that choice is up to the people of the world, who also have children.
Thank you ductape for a most productive, intelligent and reasonable comment. you have given me much to think about and I will take some time to do so.
I appreciate that we are engaging in honest discussions now, it is most useful. and I’m positive ghostdancer agrees as well.
peace
I came because booman invited me.
He and I had debated in the midst of the post-election crisis…fraud / reform / etc…but that didn’t seem an impediment to participating.
So I did.
Politically, I’m 100% behind community blogs and community discussion…sure, it’s awkward at times and it can be clique-ish. But cool things happen too, in fact, the good far outweighs the bad.
I’m here on a semi-daily basis. I post at MyDD maybe twice a month. And I try to write something every day for my blog….k/o.
Well I’d like to say I found the booman through intuition on my part that this would become home for me but honestly when booman started up this site Kos was down for several days and I had nowhere to go to get my political diary fixes.
In other words I happened here mainly by accident. While Kos was down I remembered seeing something for a booman and frog starting new site and recognized booman from diaries and comments of his so I frog jumped over here and signed up….almost from day one if I remember correctly.
Why I stayed..well better to have a voice in a small pond as they say…I felt comfortable posting here at the beginn
ing because honestly there were so few people that I figured anything I said wouldn’t be read by many and I was kinda finding my way around posting comments…didn’t do that at Kos..it was just to big. And not to keep bringing up Kos but at that time he had changed his frontpagers from Meteor Blades to Armando who I wasn’t half as comfortable with his style. Nothing against his diaries or ideas but his style is way to over the top for me.
And it was fun here at the start with naming the frog and it just seemed a good fit for me. I also liked the fact that there seemed to be more women here, given respect and not in the background..booman seemed to put in effect equality…and that ain’t no small thing.
Having watched the site grow and evolve has been fun and interesting. People wondered at first if this would just be a mirror imagine of Kos I think but that didn’t seem to be the vibe right from the start..which of course has everything to do with the obvious difference in our fearless leader-booman and that other guy.
This site has evolved through the strength of character and interests of the members here and of course bo’s famous or infamous edict of ‘don’t be a prick'(I just love being able to write that every chance I get)..and also one of the reasons that quite endeared me to him..no kidding.
Due to members creating the Cafe and now the amazing Photo Fair this site has it’s own community and personality.
I also like the fact that people here can have extremely heated discussions and we don’t have them troll rated for disagreeing…heated disagreement is almost a must or we’ll just become stagnant and far to agreeable. Only through seeing opposing viewpoints does anyone really grow and really have to think.
Well I guess I wrote more than I thought I would but I’m happy to be here and especially happy to have been here from the start to see the site grow as it has.
I came because I refuse to spend any more energy refighting old sexist battles with a bunch of grown up little boys. I stayed because I found some so many great people here, of all ages, (including grown up men who reallly respect women) I stay for the wide variety and quality of the diaries and the level of civil discouse that exists most of the time. (And of course, for a chance to contribute my own words now and then, where they can enjoy a life spans longer than ten minutes.)
I’m not too worried about this blog, as long as those who contribute such good stuff keep on contributing and continue to support each others work. (As oppossed to being sucked into to spending their best energies on the controversial diaries, or on diaries found to be offensive.) Better to spend them on something more constructive that will help build readership.
We do have Happy Hour on Fridays and even had a Friday night Metal Mosh Pit one memorable evening!
Perhaps you’d like to guest host a Froggy Bottom kegger? We love volunteers, you know! 🙂
Next Saturday night, we’ll have a kegger with Open Mike/Karoke.
KEGGER!
Nice. Better not be Natuaral Light!
Yeah, serve us up some fat beer!
Err, uh, well, uh, I am one of those, uh, psychologist-types. And you betcha blue booties, it is a field day! But not because it’s fun to observe. I’m a watcher in my work, but I try not to be in my life, and I do this for life. More below.
Why I came — symmetry w/ EuroTribune, a site I have an interest in. Missed the “pie wars” — not a factor.
Problems — whenever a diary gets past 30-40 comments, the page load hangs at sitemeter. It’s really bad for diaries w/ 100 comments, or so. Have experienced this w/ both cable and DSL connections w/ solid bandwidth. Does not happen at other sites counting hits w/ sitemeter.
That being the case, Firefox with adblocker can skip the sitemeter lookup. I’m sure other blockers can as well.
Sitemeter really ought to get more bandwidth if they’re going to be slowing down the sites they meter…
i came here after meeting so many wonderful bootribbers at the d.c. rally in september.
i’d known about bootrib, but it seemed like there was a lot of cross-posting between here and dkos anyway – i figured the last thing i needed was yet another online distraction. heh
but i did meet so many delightful people, i just had to pop on over!
Why did you come?
I read a lot of stuff here long before I joined. Then Armando offended me one too many times. Then other stuff happened. 🙁 Now I hang out here. 🙂
Why do you stay?
I love it here — there’s just enough traffic to so there’s always something to read, it’s non-confrontational (mostly) and the vast majority of people here seem like good people who have formed a great community. I also appreciate not being told who to vote for and what to think. I have to say, that diane101 made me feel very welcome when I first started visiting. And I love Susan’s writing. And Soj. I miss Soj.
Are you happy with the site?
Oh yes, although I think that sometimes we all need to take a deep breath and remember that, even though we might disagree with someone, they have a right to their opinion. We have the obligation, I think, to treat everyone with respect — even when it’s hard and our fingers go rigid over the keyboard.
What problems do you have with the site?
None, beyond what I said above.
What would you like to see changed?
I haven’t noticed it as much lately (I don’t have tons of time to read diaries any more), but I hate it when people cross-post and run. It’s disrespectful. But, there’s not much to be done about that.
I came because I was curious.
I stay because of Booman and SusanHu.
Change? the type is too small on the comments and diary names in the right margin. WAY too small and hard to read.
You know don’t you that you can change the size, font and color of typefaces if you use Opera or I think firefox has this too. I changed my settings for the reason some type was too small. On Opera you can also set for minimum font size and whether you want to use your page format or the authors page format.
Sure helps me to read all this stuff!
Firefox does have this too…click on “View”, scroll down to “Text size”, and it will let you increase or decrease the font size on the display.
My Booman experience just got readable. Thanx.
and understanding. If anyone has been offended by my aggressive defense of my family and friends for that I do apologize. I however will never apologize for being an American who has fought to bring some social justice within my country. I will never apologize for the fact that I have fought against this adminstration almost from the first day it arrived in Washington.
I read Ductape’s comments about why I am angry and he is right in some places, yet he takes no responsibility for using a broad brush to paint every american as being culpable when so many of are in fact working to change the bloody hands of our government.
As I stated in an earlier comment in another diary, I will never let a freeper call me a traitor, nor will I allow someone to paint me or those whom I know with the brush of war criminal.
Until such time as those of us who are actively seeking a change in our government can bring about that change, I will continue to work and do everything legally that I can do to provide for regime change and policy change within our government.
I respect you all, even those that I vehemently disagree with and I hope that the majority of my posts demonstrate that respect.
I have found this blog to be a place where I can excercise my mind, to allow it to be more open and willing for my comfort zone to be expanded beyond my own horizons.
You, all you have given me this gift and I thank each of you for the opportunity and privilege of being a part of your lives even if it is only online. Each of you has touched me in ways that I can never repay, for each of you has allowed me an opportunity to grow.
I have been on this earth for 51 years, only the last 18 have I allowed myself to feel, to experience life to its fullest and I am going to strive to insure that me and the rest of the world will have a chance to live a life of rich fullness and joyful living. I wish only that the entire world will have the same opportunities for growth and spiritual fulfillment.
Thank you ghostdancers way. I thank you for your service to our country in the past and the present.
Perhaps I’m guilty with the following comment of painting with the broad brush, but I have personally never met a serviceperson who joined with the ambition to torture and kill. I do not believe that Lyndie England joined up for the purpose of participating in torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
I believe that 99.99% of all enlistees and academy students join for the highest of purposes in life. They may join to get a way out of the ghetto. They may join to get help for a future college education. They may join because of family tradition. They may join for sheer love of country. They may join to stay out of prison and learn some self-discipline. They may join in times of crisis to oppose a known threat to life as they see it in our country. All of these are high purposes in life, in my opinion.
So do I believe that our military family here at BooMan have the loftiest of ideals. You yourself are a living example of those ideals.
It is another thing indeed, when through insidious manipulations, the leadership of the armed forces cajoles and coerces and so distorts reality for the ordinary service member that evil can take over the actions of individuals and entire groups of our armed forces.
It is far too easy in these cases to point at the soldier and say “torturer”. IMHO, they were tortured into performing torture. And while it is true that there is a place and time for individuals to be held accountable for their own actions, it is also not fair to blame them entirely. For, you see, it is always simple if you ignore the complexity.
On the other hand, I can see how we are all responsible in some way for the actions of our leaders and our countrymen and women. If it were not so, would we feel the shame that we share as a result of their actions?
I choose to believe that when someone uses the broad brush without warning or compassion, it is a cry for help and understanding. The attempt to put so much paint all over something on the outside is surely meant to hide something inside. When a brother or sister cries out in this way, we must attempt to greet them with a greater knowledge and a greater compassion than one individual may possess.
You have shown us this knowledge and compassion in your writings. You have also shown us the spirit of a fierce warrior, and for that, you owe no apologies, in my opinion. We are not called to lie down while evil lays waste to the things we hold dear.
I don’t often stop to comment to you, ghostdancers way, but please know that I read every word you write with respect and admiration.
Thank you
reasons I am here.
I came over here when BooMan started the site, although I didn’t sign up fast enough to get one of the coveted two-digit ID numbers, alas. I had read and admired his diaries on Sibel Edmonds* and wanted to read more of what he had to say.
Then, I started reading Susan’s stuff, and I was hooked. Watching the evolution and growth of the community has been fascinating, because the place really is like a big, free-form, fluctuating family gathering.
Just now, there seems to be some kind of spat going on, which I managed to miss by virtue of not reading what I think was the causative diary (looked at the title, didn’t want to read it). I read part of Spiderleaf’s GBCW diary and noted the presence of a troll, poor miserable creature. I missed the pie wars, too, and a good thing.
The tone here is remarkably civil, considering we have only words on a screen and no sounds or pictures to cue our reactions to one another. The depth of caring and breadth of topics enlighten, challenge, amuse, sometimes frustrate me. At a time when the world is too much with us, late and soon, this site is an oasis of sanity.
And now, I’m going to go over to the photography fair and look at some more of those wonderful pictures.
* Someday, when all the current political madness is past and assuming we survive it, someone will write the real story of what’s been going on for the last several years, and I think the Edmonds story and the Miller story will likely be more closely connected than we now realize.
That answers the first points.(br)(br)
_What problems do you have with the site_ (br)(br)
For some reason it seems to have begun dropping paragraph breaks in many of my comments and evidently some others’. (br)(br)
The Tone Issue(br)
I had to face this on a forum of my own and I lost.(br)(br)
The Aggressive-Free-Speech crowd is a fundamentalist crowd. Like all fundamentalists they believe that everyone either is like themselves in tolerating, even thriving in an environment of aggressive discourse–or else should be. They don’t seem to respond to evidence on this point.(br)(br)
What they can’t understand is that there’s a high percentage of otherwise talented, informed, concerned and engaged citizens who are uncomfortable with aggressive discourse, especially when it becomes harsh and personal. Conditions that awaken and energize the AFS crowd, who seem to include trial lawyer types, cause the majority of people to become uncomfortable and think unclearly. That’s specifically why trial lawyer types are hired for that line of work. Doctors have equally good memory for detail after all but I sure wouldn’t want one defending my life against a blistering courtroom attack.(br)(br)
In fact it’s been my experience in the arts that the most talented and accomplished people are most likely to be intolerant of a harsh debating climate. Everyone can make all the points they want. But in the end, if the climate is harsh, the talent inevitably flees.(br)(br)
The Right understands this to a “T” which is precisely why the Republican Revolution opened with, and depends on, a constant barrage of attacks, accusations, extreme language and other aggression. They need the public square to drive away thinkers and dreamers and ordinary innovative people at all costs, because thinking people are overwhelmingly liberal.(br)(br)
The development of ratings is the first of several yet-to-be-discovered innovations that are going to allow virtual communities to support multi dimensional culture more complex than the-pushiest-takes-all. The ratings are the first virtual equivalent of body language and facial expression, allowing the community to express emotional response to debate through a 2nd channel as living beings do when we gather in person.(br)(br)
The only productive way forward is to get the attention of the aggressors, find a way to educate those who are reachable, and punish through ratings those who can’t or won’t be reached.(br)(br)
That, after all, is how physical culture does it. The only other tool we have is market force, letting the richest voices dominate.(br)(br)
But we have Republicans for that.(br)(br)
Bless you all, I think the world of this site and I hope we can keep the interpersonal focus positive and cafe-oriented, while the discourse is patient and kind even when it’s vigorous, and always impersonal.(br)(br)
Gooserock — I think you posted your own Photo Diary. Part of the instructions is to change autoFormatting to HTML Formatting.
That does not change back automatically. And sometimes you have to reset it to auto a time or two before it sticks.
I should have mentioned that in the Diary Instructions.
I like green things.
Like frogs.
I like surprises.
Like sometimes happens when you kiss frogs.
BooTrib has become a prandsome hince. So, I stay.
I am not a prick.
Certainly a lot of very interesting comments here and I think pretty much of a consensus that most have positive feeling about the site and we mostly seem to agree that civility and respectfulness should be the code of the site.
I am wondering if this diary warrants a part 2, any thoughts on that?
Late as usual to the difficulties of the day.
I came here not long after Booman started the blog, but I didn’t become an active member until the difficulties at dK tripped my tilt button: immigration, Donna Brazile, etc., and the growing tendency to play super whack-a-mole against anyone who didn’t follow the direct opinion of some front pagers.
I still read dk, and sometimes post comments, but the shoot-from-the-hip alienating remarks against still more chunks of the progressive community, increasing focus on a single topic, the star system, stand in stark contrast to what we have here:
Booman – who has maturity of judgment, acts as a publisher (if there is such a thing for a blog) rather than Zeus on the mountain-top shooting down thunderbolts from time-to-time.
SusanHu, blogger and renaissance woman extraordinaire.
And so manyrenaissance people. I love it, and I could and probably should name names. I want to, really, but my memory is not as good and I’d cheat and see who has something right now in the list and that would not be fair to others who do not.
I love the diversity of this site – lots of women, cultures, not all U.S. types. Wish we did have more men. But no people wanted of the pound them back into their caves types, of whatever type.
It was increasingly tiresome to hear Southerners bedamned over and over again, when I live up in Yankeeland in the nation’s most segregated city. Didn’t see that here – nor did I expect to see accolades for the South which it does not deserve.
Mostly I liked the quality of writing on many subjects, and the slower pace allowing time for reflection on topics. Many of the best writers on DK and elsewhere also show up here, at least from time to time. And I have enjoyed access and reminders of European and other perspectives so much (and here must say I miss soj still).
I resonate to what Brenda said. I have, in spite of very little other than commenting a bit, grown to love the voices here, respect, want to know better, learn from, be with, as much as can be in this strange, disconnected world. I was fearful when DT disappeared for a while. I find myself worrying about Brinnainne’s diss (I have two students and a former Dean co-volunteer that I’m nudging through that process, and I think of B every time I talk to one of them, which is about daily, B. Sorry.).
Most of all, this is a small place for a voice that I cannot speak otherwise. Each day I go teach, a bully pulpit, really, and I have to be careful how I do it. I am quietly subversive, focusing on policy issues. But I cannot advocate for or against a particular position of our legislature or congress or the administration – it is against the law and others are being silenced for this. I do not want to be silenced. So I can comment here, as I have time, with an anonymity I really don’t want.
The respect here for dissent, for differences of opinion, for varied interests and world views, is more productive, I think, than the heat of other places. And the glue that this respect brings, makes up for stresses and strains here and there. The photo fair – on a blog that is very often dominated by politics? Wonderful. Fabooj’s kid on a bench of hear-no-evil,see-no-evil,speak-no-evil: its a sculpture of what how Bush wants us to act toward his policies! Wild flowers in the Appalachians, Janet’s raccoon, like the one on my back porch right now. Must go feed him. . .
Thank you, Diane,
Thank you Booman , most of all. Your pond has the best pads around, and the most interesting denizens.
will probably be joining us shortly. Watch this shit. http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/10/9/204315/963/110#110
It just never stops over there, does it?
And that’s as good a thumbnail illustration as any of why so many of us over here.
Because I had read and appreciated his writing, I came on the first day that BooMan invited us, and I felt at home right away. Even with the growth spurts, we’ve maintained a sense of community because, no matter what our individual differences might be, we have shared a sense of purpose and we have shared respect.
Even good families have squabbles, but the best families love each other enough to patch them up.
Why I came? I think I was following something about Gannon and ended up here-also it was and is for news collected from interesting and seldom-used sources. I seem to have become perhaps unhealthily addicted to looking for something resembling the truth. Why I stayed-see above.
I like the personal and fun stuff but it will never be something I can do because of time constraints. And I wonder about the health of internet relations; I’ve had quite a few problems in the past with the nature of them. If you like them good on you.
I’m also probably more politically/sexually/socially radical than most posters here and while I consider you all to be allies there are many points we will never agree on. I’ll probably be doing less lurking and even less commenting than my paltry amount in the future because of the aforementioned time constraints.
blessings to all.
Oh, now I really must insist you post — at least comments!
Radicals and pariah’s are much beloved here, even if they aren’t always agreed with, they’re great fun to consider. And they have this amazing habit of ending up on the Recommended list, just for being so darn thought provoking, too.
I understand time constraints (I really do!), but if you do post something, I guarantee we’ll read it — I know I certainly will.
As I mentioned above, when I come across a diary or comment that upsets me, it means that somehow, someway, it’s pushed one of my “buttons”, so I have an opportunity to examine some of my long-time beliefs and figure out why I’m bugged. So, I have all those “controversial” posters to thank for aiding my personal growth — and I would love to add you to the mix… 🙂
Please note I have just put up part 2 for this diary and also you can use for overnight cafe.
thanks everyone for your participation.
I was a pie fight refugee. I stay because folks here are respectful and intelligent, and disagreements are civil and educational to the point that I actually look forward to disagreements because the person doing the disagreeing usually gives me something to think about.
As a consequence of that basic attitude of respect and civility, there’s another thing to like about this site: the atmosphere makes it inviting for more kinds of people than some other places, so it has less of a tendency to turn into an echo chamber.
Really, the only thing I don’t like so much is that BooTrib has gotten big enough that I can’t keep up with it all like I could when I first arrived.
Respectfully disagreeing is harder to do than to say. Mindless agreement is much easier. Lets just do that instead.
Tolerance is one of the hallmarks of progressives. So is creative use of free speech.
Community Blogs, ironically, seem to grow more intolerant over time as they grow. I came to Booman because it is not growing as rapidly as Kos, and because it has a still functioning cohesive group of “oldtimers” like yourself, who somehow feel morally responsible for the enterprise. As new, less “authentic” voices or opinions are added, the oldtimers reflexively (and not very respectfully)disagree because the opinion or tone may differ from the community “norm,” as they themselves have largely defined it. Inverted trolls I call them. The disrespect is sometimes returned by the offended newbie, who gets trollrated off the site.
Thus the inverted trolls bait the newbies, either into compliance with community “norms” or they are disappeared, often just for disagreeing. But the rationale is “we didnt troll rate him for disagreeing, we troll rated him for being disrespectful.”
This is best exemplified by DHinMI on Kos.
First Kos, now here. Actually, few get trolled out here, but many of the best thinkers and writers leave first voluntarily. The “authenics” immediately blame it on the shifting tone brought in by the newbies.
They fail to see it is as likely their own blind intolerance that creates the departures of the “thoughtful” posters. Soon enough, the “authentics” begin to follow the “thoughtful” ones out the door.
This process within community blogs may be cyclical. And unavoidable as readership increases. What next? Still another splintering off into still another left wing community blog?
The splintering off seems to weaken not strengthen the overall political force of community blogs, although building political power does not seem to be the main point of community blogs.
But thats another discussion.
I came here because Daily Kos had become a dysfunctional and intolerant place. I stayed because I found a thoughtful and tolerant community at BooMan Tribune.
Thanks everyone, for making this a home on the web.