Update [2005-12-12 16:3:38 by SallyCat]: Governer Schwarzenegger will not issue clemency to Mr. Williams. Execution will occur at 12:01am PST. Thanks to readers comments for the breaking news
Tonight the California Department of Corrections will execute a man at San Quentin Prison. San Quentin is located at the edge of San Francisco Bay in Marin County, CA. From the walkways of the prison the skyline of San Francisco and Oakland are both visible. Tonight life will probably end in a darkened room inside the prison.
At 11:30 p.m., Williams will be given a new pair of denim jeans and a new blue work shirt to wear.
At 11:45 p.m., the first group of witnesses will be led into the room where the death chamber is and positioned by guards on a set of risers or a railing along the thick glass windows of the chamber. These will be state officials, lawyers and people who have asked to watch the execution on behalf of Williams or his victims.
At 11:55 p.m., media witnesses will be escorted in and positioned on risers. Nobody may move after they have been placed. Fifty witnesses total are allowed, 17 of those from the press.
Precisely at midnight, prison officials will make one last call to the state Department of Justice and Department of Corrections headquarters to determine if any last-second stays have been issued. That process usually takes less than a minute, and at 12:01 a.m. Williams will be led by three guards into the lime-green execution chamber through its only door.
Space is tight in the 7.5-foot-wide, octagonal chamber, which was designed for two lethal gas chairs but has been nearly filled with a lethal injection gurney since William Bonin became the first California prisoner executed by injection on Feb. 24, 1996.
Williams is a bulky man, so there will undoubtedly be slight jostling as he is laid upon the cross-shaped gurney, and his arms and legs are strapped down.
read more in the San Francisco Chronicle
More – two sides to every story. This is from the anti-death penalty activists and some who know what the justice system means to them as family and friends that were victims of violent crimes.
Outside the entrance to San Quentin State Prison on Sunday afternoon, two teenagers sold copies of laminated poems dedicated to Williams. Pro-clemency signs and posters left by participants in vigils in recent weeks rested near the check-in for people visiting inmates.
“I e-mailed the governor saying we recycle plastic, we recycle glass, and we reform it and put it into something better and useful,” said Carma Helzer of Contra Costa County, who was visiting her son, an inmate convicted in 2004 with his brother in five homicides. “Why throw away a human life when it’s being useful?”
Two anti-clemency protesters, a mother and her daughter, stood in front of the prison holding signs that read: “No Mercy for his victims. No Mercy for him!” and “Remember his victims.”
“Those who support Williams have no idea what families go through when someone is murdered,” said Gloria Bucol-Bachrach of Fremont, who said her 19-year-old son was shot and killed by a gang member at a concert in Oakland 25 years ago.
“To be awakened at 3 a.m. by the coroner to find out my son was murdered — that was the worst moment of my life,” Bucol said.
read more of different perspectives in the San Francisco Chronicle – 2nd
I have had the opportunity to tour San Quentin with a group of law students and law enforcement officials. There is a security process that is intimidating just as visitor including being signed in through several gates. The inside is depressing and gloomy. The death penalty chamber is chilling and somber. There are no chairs and all witnesses stand on risers around the perimeter of the room. The death chamber is sterile and glass windowed with barely enough room for the gurney and doctors and guards. Visualize yourself as you can as a witness standing with your back to a cold prison wall, standing on risers, and watching someone die.
My friends and husband work in law enforcement and I have mixed emotions about the death penalty.
– There is, for me, the idea that there are crimes that are so heinous that the death penalty is appropriate.
– There is a concern that too often around this country innocent people are executed wrongly.
– There is a question of where do we make the distinction and decision.
We have had extended periods where the California Supreme Court modified death penalty sentences to life sentences. Was that the answer? It must not have been as we did not reelect that Supreme Court Justice.
My answer is that the will of the people should be answered through their elected officials and through changing the state law. Our state legislature is predominantly democrat. If we are to show compassion in our laws, we need compassion in our legislators.
Unless the governor issues a clemency today – a man will die tonight. So while you are sleeping the State of California will execute a man – less than 5 miles from my house. My friends in law enforcement will be out patrolling the roads around the prison. Tomorrow…maybe we can look at the laws again…or maybe we will just continue this path.
What do you all think about the death penalty?
Please remember that this is a tremendously volatile issue when posting comments. Alternatives and discussion are the aim of this diary.
Marin, home of Mill Valley, CA and San Quentin…
I was living in Marin and a couple of friends of mine and I drove to a mall. As we got out of the car, these women asked me, what in the world was the facility in the distance.
Without preamble, I said it was San Quentin.
They were freaked. “So close?!!” Right. That close. Former home of the gas chambers.
The executions by injection occur in the same room that used to be the gas chamber. The picture in SusanHu’s diary is too bright to truly give the image and feeling of the room.
Note – this room is darker than the lighting indicates. The risers are where the witnesses stand.
Marin County – home to old money, new money, working poor, shopping malls by the bay, the enviromentally and politically correct, and San Quentin and executions by the State of CA.
I know; it went to lethal injections before I left the Bay Area in 2000.
Growing up, hearing about someone dying in the gas chamber was scary.
” The risers are where the witnesses stand.”
That is so bleeping pathetic. Going to watch someone be put to death by your “state”.
But, I’m more against the Death Penalty than for it. First, I’m not confident that everyone on death row is guilty of the crimes that put them there. And second, I don’t like the idea of paying public executioners.
I think I’d be more inclined to support the Death Penalty (assuming a more accurate conviction standard) if we had a policy of Death Duty.
If as citizens, we had to execute prisoners ourselves. It would work just like Jury Duty — You’d never know when your name would be drawn.
It seems to me, if it’s worth doing — if it’s the right thing, it’s worth doing ourselves.
If we aren’t willing to do it ourselves, then maybe we don’t believe in it enough.
I think this would make a lot of difference katiebird.
Alternatively I think that there should be more public ‘tours’ of death chambers. My feelings always tended towards very middle on the death penalty, until I walked into that room. At the end of the 10 minutes of standing inside the observation area I was chilled to the bone. That chill had nothing to do with the cold foggy night…it chilled my heart and soul.
My belief is that part of our humanity as a society dies with each execution.
Mr. Williams changed his life and has changed the lives of many others. In this case I hope and pray for clemency from the governor.
Tonight, I will light candles for the victims of crime and I will light a candle for a peaceful passage for Mr. Williams.
The problem with the Williams thing is that he helped spread a life style that is very damaging to children. While I think that a prisoner changing his life and values should count — how do we deal with the fact that everyday children are still drawn into the dangerous oranization that he founded. He says, “Oops, I was wrong”. But the organization still spreads. That’s a pretty unusual situation.
Now that he sees the error of his past, how does he live with himself?
How do any of us live with the errors of our pasts? We cannot undo what has been done, we can only go forward. Redemption is one of the oldest themes in storytelling, because it is the power of transformation.
I work against the death penalty for a number of reasons.
From a legal perspective, our criminal justice system is based on two things. First, the eye for an eye system of personal “justice” got awfully messy and circular. Gandi was right, any eye for an eye does leave the whole world blind. Criminal justice was meant to replace revenge, act as a buffer of reason over emotion and serve to protect society.
The second thing leads to the political. The death penalty will always be subjective – the first subjective test is prosecutorial discretion, which first degree murders to try as capital offenses. Political careers are made on “tough on crime” stances, particularly in the south. In North Carolina, our governor is a former prosecutor and AG, some of the most egregious cases of prosecutorial misconduct lead right into his AG office. And this man holds clemency in his hands. Sound fair to you?
The most important political perspective is that power over life or death is too much power to place in the hands of our government. By the time a case gets to a jury, the deck is stacked heavily in favor of the government. Only pro-death jurors can serve on a capital jury. “Death qualified” jurors are more likely to convict as decide for death.
And last, from a religious perspective, every religion recognizes forgiveness and mercy. In Christianity, what story tells this lesson better than Jesus on the cross?
As long as we have a government that executes its own citizens, we are complicit in that murder. It doesn’t make us safer, it cannot undo the crime, it isn’t and never will be applied equally, it isn’t just.
most primitive urge for vengeance, as well as admiration of brutality.
Notice how when people hear of a particularly horrific crime, how many will begin to suggest grisly things to be done to the alleged perpetrator.
They admire it, they glorify it, they want to surpass it, perpetuate it, be a part of it.
It is sadly a problem that will only be solved by further evolution.
a safe vicarious way to indulge our primal appetites with the added bonus of feeling downright righteous about it.
“We had to put the murdering dog down…”
I was disappointed not to see you in my exploration of the possible existence of a struggle of good versus evil in this world.
Hope you’ve been well.
</hijack>
the requisite quorum of dueling Mullas, drunken Jesuits, supercillious Saddus, roaring Rabbis or smirking Zoroasterians that I require in order to discuss theology.
I’ll have to plan ahead and send invitations to the above mentioned participants next time,….oh, and stock the burgundy as well.
I don’t know. Reading this reminds of all the people who have gotten in my face over the years to let me know just how happy they’d be to be the one to pull the switch or push the needle.
But I do believe it’s important to let people know just how “civilized” this practice — both on its own terms (thus my posts below) & in relation to the rest of the world. It’s some company we keep on this issue.
I oppose the death penalty. Simply listing those countries–as The Colbert Report did a week ago–who are in our killing club is often enough to change people’s minds on the issue.
My stance is simple: a government loses legitimacy when it kills its own citizens.
So her son was killed, and now she wants the death penalty for any killer?
I have no idea of what Mrs. Bucol-Bachrach has gone through. But she’s not going to give herself peace by shouting to have others killed. How sad.
Well, this is going to sound horrible, but I don’t care about the victim’s families feelings about whether a killer gets the Death Penalty or not. I don’t think it’s society’s responsibility to satisfy the families thirst for revenge or satisfaction (and how sick would it be if anything satisfied the victim’s families).
The only level that I can see me supporting a Death Penalty (and really, it’s much more theoretical than actual support) is that there really are people, say Ted Bundy, who are less than worthless. I’d always been against the death penalty, but the day the put him to death I thought, “This one I don’t care about”. And that’s when I realized that I was a little ambivalent about it.
But, I still think that the whole thing is mismanaged and conceived from beginning to end. So as it currently exists, I’m not a Death Penalty supporter.
A number of years ago there was a man that had been convicted of a crime, did his time, and was released. He subsequently kidnapped, raped and killed one little girl. He later kidnapped another little girl, raped her, cut off her arms, and left her for dead. She lived.
In this case, the death sentence for the first crime, based on his continued actions and the torture nature of his 2nd crime, for me was justified.
For me to support the death penalty, the crime must fall within the category of “heinous”. I am not ambivalent about the death penalty…I do support it…rarely and only based on heinous crimes.
I’d rather we keep them locked up and study these people, see if we can figure out why they do what they do, and figure out how to prevent it in the future — or at least build better profiles such that we can catch them faster.
As a matter of principle, I think of the death penalty as state-sanctioned murder with no value to society. With life sentences actually meaning no possible means of release, what do we gain by killing the killers? And I agree with IndyLib:
study these people
Exactly. Down to their DNA. Pick a serial killer, including Bundy, who would not provide valuable information to law enforcement – add to the body of knowledge in the constantly developing field of profiling.
From USA Today:
Life means that the convicted prisoner will leave prison in a box. The only question is when. It also means that if there has been any false conviction, that prisoner has lost years, but not his life.
We have had a number of death convictions overturned. Imagine spending years on death row for a crime you did not commit. Now imagine being executed for a crime you did not commit.
…put them away for life doing hard time with no chance of parole. For many people that’s worse punishment than being executed.
And, in this case, I agree with the rightwingers: No TV, no special privileges of any kind. A bland, nutritious diet, regular exercise and reasonable hygiene. Period.
I agree too. Being executed is the ‘easy’ way out… you do not have time to reflect, consider, suffer for what you have done. Not that I think one should suffer, but serious contemplation, and the isolated time to do that, is somewhat justice to me. And it should be about justice, not revenge.
No chance of parole, bare minimal living conditions, but not inhumane by any means… I think for the worst offenders, this would be worse than execution, yes.
That, and I believe that we as humans just cannot as a society judge and decide who lives and who dies, even though that does happen through individual actions… we cannot deem ourselves knowledgable enough to take the decision of murder upon ourselves collectively.
And don’t even get me started on the flaws and bias in the system. Nuff said.
Thanks for the dialogue SC.
…Callins v. Collins says it well about flaws and bias.
I lived in the Bay Area when he did that. It was horrible.
I don’t think I agree with the death penalty in the majority of cases, especially because of the racial imbalance in who gets the death penalty, and the high number of people who have been convicted of crimes, served many years in prison, and ultimately been exonerated with new DNA evidence technology.
I, too, lived in the Bay Area during that time. But basing our laws on the worst of our society is the inverse of what we should do.
I oppose the death penalty because I do not want my government to have that power. If the government has the power to end life then there is no end to its power.
Murderers will murder. Thieves will steal. Abusers will rape. Do you want your government to be any of these? Then why sanction death-by-government?
Our prisons should be for real criminals: those who kill, steal and abuse. The “death penalty” should be for the extremely old.
I think we can agree that all murder is heinous. Murder is the intentional taking of another human life. Not self defense, not an accident, the intentional taking of another human life. That’s where the problem begins.
First, is the murder of one family’s loved one somehow less heinous than the murder of other families’ loved ones? Why should one murderer pay “the ultimate price” and not another?
Second, what could be more heinous that holding crime scene photos in your hands, listening to the medical examiner give grisly detail after detail, hearing panic and agony on a 911 tape, seeing the family weeping. This is as close as it gets, serving on a capital murder trial. It is “the most heinous” to those 12 people because it is real.
As long as human beings sit in judgment over the life or death of other human beings, heinous will always be subjective, and therefore always be unjust.
It was the people of CA that voted in the 3 Strikes law mandating sentencing rules, eliminating judicial discretion;
It was the people of CA that voted in ‘special circumstances’ for the death penalty, again limiting prosecutorial discretion;
It is the people of CA that repeatedly reject bond measures to build prisons;
Again – speaking from my experience with law enforcement friends and prosecutors – most on the prosecution side take capital cases extremely seriously when the death penalty may be on the table. They will do everything they can to not persue the death penalty and instead persue life without parole. Too much of judicial discretion has been removed from the prosecutors and judges…by the voters.
I do believe that the process is subjective. As long as the voters insist on defining the laws, law enforcement can only do the best to mitigate the number of times death is the sentence.
Thank you debraz for your well phrased and thoughtful responses in the diary today.
Here’s the heartbreak of the system SallyCat. It’s the long tradition of the executioner wearing a mask, or a firing squad, or multiple plungers. It is to hide the hand that throws the rock.
The prosecutors can say the decision is in the hands of the voters, the judges can say that the decision is in the hands of the jury, the jury can say that the decision is in the hands of the judge and appellate courts… it’s a way to wash the blood off all of our hands.
The prosecutorial discretion exists in California, it rests solely with the District Attorney. Elected every 4 years. Judges have no say in the charges the prosecutor wishes to bring forth. Neither do voters.
Scott Peterson was tried on capital murder charges while Robert Blake was not. Both had “special circumstances”. What’s the difference? Think about that one.
I have no doubt that your law enforcement and prosecutor friends believe that they are just doing their job. They couldn’t do it if they didn’t. And I’m sure some of them would wonder how I can work to defend murderers. A lot of people do. But make no mistake, every execution is carried out in your name and my name and your friends names. There is no mitigating that.
And owning that is the only way we can change the system.
I probably only know have as many defense attorneys as prosecutors – but they are well respected in my area.
Life without possibility of parole is always an option in CA capital cases, and IIRC was re-affirmed last year in a state Supreme Court case. I agree that prosecutorial discretion is there and that it depends on the jurisdictionas to how actively the choices between life and death are presented to juries.
Prosecutors and District Attorneys decide which cases to prosecute as capital cases. Peterson yes, Blake no. That’s very different and waaaay out ahead of presenting anything to a jury.
I’m pretty sure SF county doesn’t pursue the DP. Marin might be likewise? I don’t remember what the statistics from LA & Orange counties are, but I believe the charging rate rises sharply moving east into San Bernadino, and actually, most of CA’s rural counties. Those are the jurisdictions least prepared to do an adequate job from either the prosecutorial or defense sides.
A person convicted of 1st degree murder in a predominantly white, rural county (like Napa, King, Colusa, or Shasta counties) is more than three times as likely to be sentenced to death than a person convicted of a similar crime in a diverse, urban county like Los Angeles, which has the highest number of homicides in the state.
I’m encouraged that this diary hasn’t gone off the deep end yet.
I admire Sister Prejean very much, and the work she has done with the condemned, the death penalty, and with victims’ families.
I’m also mindful of what the Buddha said, and that it is enough for us to kill the will to kill.
You watch enough Kurosawa/Mifune films, and you get that same picture, too. Keep your swords in your scabbards.
Imagine waiting 24 years for revenge. I just cannot see it. It makes me think about the Hutus and the Tutsis, the Serbs and the Bosnians. I wonder whether these families who lost their loved ones have been able to go on beyond the executions. Hate like that eats up the soul, to where the pro-death families and friends are ticked off that the guy hasn’t suffered more before their eyes, especially if he was injected.
And this is where justifications for torture come in.
I am against the death penalty, but there are those moments when I think, Boy, that one deserves to get death. I mean, I would not vie to press the button for the pellet to fall or inject the guy. I’m just listening to what the guy or the woman did on the evening news that would be grounds for me to think that way.
And then I get disturbed seeing Snoop Dogg saying Tookie should be spared. Snoop, who was on trial for murder himself years back and got off on self-defense. I still wonder about that one, and the fact that Snoop does porn–and children’s stories. And is still a gangbanger–hopefully retired.
(Here’s a rant coming on…)
Black people feel very conflicted about the death penalty. On one hand, I think that we feel that there are just too many brothers in the slam right now that shouldn’t be there. Too many brothers locked up mean fewer black fathers, heads of households, breadwinners, husbands. Too many brothers in the slam mean something is wrong among us that the appeal of the playa life is so much more hypnotic and gets more payback than being in grad school, going for a job, raising sons and daughters. And etc. We feel we have to save these men, to keep them alive. We hate to see our folks go down like that. Call it cultural, tribal, whatever. We feel for them.
On the other hand, we blacks are the ones who suffer when these fools start acting up. Because they live in our neighborhood. We sometimes know them–which is worse. They perp us first before they even think of going to the ‘burbs. Cops don’t do shyt right. They think of it as ‘containment.’ Which is another reason why crack spread so rapidly among blacks and later jumped into all communities. They were paid off. They were doing containment. They bring out the artillery with innocent, regular folks who would be on their side if they didn’t treat them so badly. They do this so they could shakeout the perps. Like ‘Nam, they can’t figure out who is real or posing gangsta–which results in innocents getting hurt or killed, too. On top of it, drive-bys spray bullets at innocents. That’s the terror dynamic in action. If you don’t get your man, at least you get the neighborhood shytting bricks, wanting to keep out of it. Folks are caught between a rock and a hard place. They tend to support the death penalty because some of our folk ARE that sick, but NOT all of us, and we certainly don’t want guys like Tookie near us either, and yet…
I would have been happy to see Tookie stay in jail for the rest of his life. He was paying his debt to society. He has done some good things and could have done more. But demanding his blood…American society descends to the level of the killer when they ask for things like this when so much time has passed. Nothing will bring those poor people back. Nothing. Remember, the father in Dead Man Walking found no rest even after the killer was executed…and this is what he had wanted, too. Sister Prejean had to help him to forgive, even as he had enjoined the state to kill the murderer. I can say for a fact that this will happen again…unless the bereaved can kill the will to kill within themselves.
I know. It seems I am ranting here. But this is a sad occasion, and there are so many connections.
Rant away…there is so much that is unfair about our judicial system – specifically racial profiling in crimes and sentences.
There are many reasons why clemency should have been issued in this case. There are too many easy outs for the politicians – and they took them
Not surprised the DK was exploding…the thought crossed my mind to cross post this morning. Decided the issue was difficult enough on a thoughtful site like Booman without diving into the shark tank.
This issue is emotional and volatile…no matter where we stand on the subject.
This, from the person who hangs out w/ a pimp and arrived to one awards show with women wearing dog collars and leashes. This, from someone who likely got away with murder.
I frankly cannot stand Snoop–you know, I’m one of those ultra-sensitive bitches who for some reason hate being called a ho–but he gets the “stopped clock” award of the year for that statement.
But I can understand why folks feel conflicted about this. I really feel that he was executed b/c while he may have been innocent of the charges for which he was executed (it seems it’s an open question), he was damned sure guilty about something. That’s a scary way of administering “justice” even if you believed that Williams deserved it. What about the next person?
there is also the possibility that he had ordered rubouts from prison, like some kind of godfather. That chills me. This is where some of this ‘banger shyt actually begins, in the Seventies with young guys watching blaxploitation films and The Godfather for some kind of cues in life and taking it from there. See, that’s why I said he was not totally innocent and should have stayed in the slam for the rest of his natural life.
But he’s dead now, and it just may be we won’t find out for sure after some years have passed…when those witness perps–if they are still alive–go through some soul searching and more of the truth comes out one way or another.
killing him and locking him up and not letting him out after the second and third crimes?
A) What’s the difference for society in terms of re-offending?
B) What do you feel differently with locking him up with no possibility of release, and killing him?
opposed to the death penalty but wonder if I would be able to hold my ground against a hypothetical situation where the person killed someone close to me (a parent, for example).
There’s something carnal about wanting to see another human being killed. I think of the electric chair and my stomach turns upside-down. How sick of a society do we have where we would approve of seeing somebody fried? With an audience!
This is a tough question, because it should be, in my opinion. It is literally a life-and-death matter.
I don’t talk about this much online because it’s still so emotionally charged for me personally, but my mother died suddenly several years ago, and there was a short investigation into whether her boyfriend had killed her. Several of her friends and co-workers stated to me flat out that they believed he had killed her.
While I waited an excruciating 8 weeks for the autopsy report (word to the wise: never read your own mother’s autopsy report, if you can possibly avoid that), I had a lot of time to entertain the precise mechanisms by which I would want to kill this man myself, if it turned out that he had killed my mother. And I realized something about myself: I have always been against the death penalty for both philosophical reasons (it’s unethical for the govt to kill its own citizens) and pragmatic reasons (we can rarely ever know for sure if the person was truly guilty), and I was still against the death penalty. Because even though I thought about killing the bastard myself, I knew I wouldn’t do it, and in the end I didn’t want the state doing it either, no matter what.
The autopsy report provided no clear cut answers, but while I continue to suspect that this man likely contributed to my mother’s death, he was probably not the direct cause of it. And I’m satisfied to know that my intellectual integrity is sound, and that my ethical convictions are well grounded enough to keep me from becoming a hypocrite, no matter how personal the subject matter is. I wish the same were true for other people, but I recognize it’s all very complicated.
much for sharing your story with us Indy.
FWIW, I have a similar story (different immediate family member, different circumstances) and do not think that execution really solves anything either. It can’t bring back the person I lost, so life imprisonment seems more suitable.
then that may mean that
(1) he might have expected something out of the will
(2) he didn’t want the responsibility of helping to care for her if she were ill
(3) elderly abuse; he’s got issues and it may happen again with someone else’s mom
Pardon me for sounding off; I may indeed be wrong, and I don’t mean to pry open a scab.
Your story shows great, great presence of mind and heart.
…own long-held views.
I could kill someone, no qualms, if that person were in the act of trying to kill me or a loved one and lethal action were the only reasonable option. But there’s a difference between justifiable homicide and state-sponsored murder.
I worked on a capital case where the victim’s mother had a prison ministry. Her daughter was only 17 years old and her murder was brutal and horrific. The mother opposed the death penalty and because of her, prosecutors were able to get a plea. Her daughter’s killer is serving life in prison without parole.
I admire her courage and her faith.
In another case, one of the prospective jurors was a psychiatric nurse for the inmate population. Her sister was murder, and she became her sister’s killer’s nurse while he was in prison. Asked how she was able to do that, she told us that it was her job and in order to do her job, she’d found the strength to forgive.
…and I include in our wills as a kind of answer to your hypothetical:
Like you, if someone killed (or even harmed) someone dear to me, my reptile brain would scream for revenge. But one of the main points of civilization is to curb our reptile brains.
It’s easy enough to say this person or that person “deserves” to die. I have that thought about certain motorists three or four times whenever I’m on the freeway. But whether it’s Bundy or Mao or Henry Kissinger, I reject the death penalty. Better for my sanity and for society’s advancement to lock ’em up forever and study what makes them tick.
You are so right.
There are lots of people who “deserve to die” who will never even peed inside a prison.
OMG! I meant to type “peek”!
Maybe my unconscious thoughts won out there.
Brutal honesty followed by my conundrum.
I ama supporter of the death penalty. People who are caught red-handed in taking the life of another are deserving of the death penalty. I didn’t always feel that way – but to be morally honest with myself, I imagined that my husband or one of my parents was brutally murdered. I would want to see the guilty party executed.
Specifically on the subject of this impending execution – I think clemency should be granted only if legitimate doubt can be raised as to Williams’ guilt. The fact that he reformed, if demonstrably guilty, doesn’t negate the four deaths he perpetrated. Imagine the accomplishments possible in the four lives taken on that day… Sadly, their murder will never see those accomplishments realized.
Now the conundrum. I’m not convinced Williams wasn’t railroaded and I’m not convinced he is guilty of these four crimes. I know innocent people have been executed and that’s just… inexcusable.
So I guess my answer is that I support the death penalty if there can be an assurance that innocents aren’t executed – and given that we know they have been, that assurance does not exist.
So I don’t support the death penalty.
Unless someone murders someone I love, which makes no sense – it’s totally circular thinking and I’m not comfortable iwth any side of this argument, for and against.
Ugh.
I think a good many of us find ourselves in the same circle of emotional conflict.
Watching the judicial system disproportionately prosecute, convict, and execute people of color worries me. It is this historical, and continuing, rush to judgement that makes me generally opposed to the death penalty.
My general feeling on the death penalty – when in doubt – don’t.
What if your son was out with a group, and there’s a stupid argument at a drive-in burger joint? And someone in the group killed someone? Not your son, he didn’t do it. But what if he’s charged and convicted of the murder because someone else copped a plea bargain, and said that he had done it?
You say if someone killed your parent or husband you support it. But if it’s your son who’s about to be killed, do you support it?
As Meteor Blades said upthread, this conundrum is powerful and hard to put your finger on because it is coming from your brainstem, or reptile brain. Deep seated emotions, love, hate, fear, come from here and they are hard to rationalize away.
I appreciate you honesty, as this is a fundamentally human conundrum. My solution is to convince myself that life in prison without parole is justice served, but still allows for exculpatory evidence in cases of wrongful imprisonment.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
People are railroaded constantly in this country, and enough money can buy freedom for the guilty.
It’s not complicated. We’re one of the few countries in the world still contemplating murder as a solution to a crime.
It is pointless! If you don’t like something your family member does, do you have the right to kill them? If the state doesn’t like something someone has done, does that give us the right to kill them?
If you have the tiniest urge to kill people, why? Why do you like the idea that your state will kill people?
It should at least be called for what is: Murder for Revenge. There’s no other credible argument for it.
It’s said that the DP is the only means for victims’ families to obtain some sort of final resolution. But this ignores the pain they are forced to go through as the appeals (& then clemency) process drags on & on over the years, often in highly public forums. While Life-without-parole (LWOP) sentences are still subject to appellate review, they normally don’t receive the degree of scrutiny or take the same amount of time to be resolved as DP cases.
Lethal injection isn’t exactly the “humane” method it’s often portrayed to be. In fact, one of the chemicals used, the paralyzing agent Pavulon, is considered to be too cruel to be used on animals. It effectively masks any expression of pain and makes it impossible for the executioner to know if the initial anesthesia has worn off.
Ok, I need to stop now. KPFA just reported that clemency has been denied, & the 9th Circuit has turned down his Federal appeal. The anti-mercy, blood thirsty crowd wins again. ciao . . .
I’m just wondering what the gangstas are thinking right now in Los Angeles, Riverside, San Berdoo, and San Diego.
I’ve read a couple of articles that suggest that these guys might riot.
Or then they may not.
then will Arnold GET IT that he is responsible for any damage/injuries/deaths caused by that?
people who believe in and support the death penalty arent neccesarily blood thirsty or anti mercy.
are people who support abortion baby killers?
what about people who support just war or euthanasia or murder in self defense or suicide?
isnt it fascinating that right wingers tend to support wars and the death penalty and left wingers tend to support euthanasia and aborion on demand?
death is death
Sorry, Anna, I disagree. I believe you have used fallacious logic here. Interesting point bringing up the politically charged death-related issues, but equating them all is unreasonable.
Euthanasia: This is a decision to end your own life. Taking someone else’s life is very, very different from taking your own life.
The death penalty: I can understand the urge to have someone killed if they do something heinous, but it is still taking the life of another person.
Abortion: This is more subjective, so I won’t get into my viewpoint here, but suffice it to say that all death is not equivalent IMO.
Just war: sure, just war can be reasonably supported, but as we have seen, any pack of lies can be sold as a just war these days.
WRT the death penalty supporters as being bloodthirsty, I really feel that they are just that. It is natural for humans to be bloodthirsty when confronted with atrocities, and to feel that justice must be of the “eye for an eye” variety. It is also important for society to be able to rise above the baser instincts in order to set a good example.
im not sure what is fallatious about my logic….im not even sure what my thesis is other than death is death.
as for your points;
physician assisted euthanasia gets you a prison term in this country….is that fair? you did kill someone but it was consensual…some people think thats murder too.
in regards to the death penalty almost everyone who has commented on this and is against the death penalty has caveats for people who kill children…we all seem to have our line that we cross….who decides where the line is is the key.
as for abortion you may not think its murder but a huge number of people do…including myself and i am rabidly pro choice with no qualifiers…its murder…get over it.
are you just going to dismiss the idea of a just war? forget the pack of lies….killing is killing….even a just war will end up killing some innocent people…and almost everyone in the world believes that war is sometimes necessary.
we kill people in many different ways in this world…mostly thru indifference than anything else….some of us are drawing the line at one point and some at the other….who gets to draw the line?
i still find it fascinating that pro life people are almost always pro death penalty and pro choice people are almost always anti death penalty….maybe you dont see the double standards and inconsistencies of logic that i see….what i see is we are all the same on the inside….the differences arent that significant in the big scheme of things.
Fair enough, I didn’t mean to be too harsh. Sure, death is death, but cake is cake too, and I like some cake more than others. I assumed that you meant that all death is equivalent. That is what I took issue with.
I had the same thought you did, a year ago or so, about inconsistency in approaches to death. I ended up deciding that instead of pointing to similarities, it pointed to differences. The liberal canon (pro-choice, right to die, anti-death penalty) is predicated on the role of the law not interfering with self-determination unless it infringes on that of another, but with the proviso that a woman has more rights than a fetus. The conservative mindset (pro-life, anti-euthanasia, pro-death penalty) is predicated on the sanctity of life, but with the proviso that a heinous crime can render your life forfeit. Both have some internal consistency that makes those who hold to one or the other sets of beliefs make up a large proportion of the population, and those who “mix and match” from another philosophical angle make up a smaller group.
I guess I’m trying to say that while all of these issues deal with death, death is not the main issue involved. It’s about control of your body and control over your destiny, or it’s about the sanctity of life, except when it isn’t. Everybody dies, and I agree that everyone draws lines differently about what is acceptable, but where you draw the lines is a complex interplay of many other ideas and ideals.
With regard to just war… I was not dismissing it at all. I believe that there can be just wars. Sorry if I was not clear. I just think that, as I’m sure you would agree, justice sadly doesn’t really seem to have much of a role in the political world these days.
Oh, and I won’t get over it. Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not a fully invested life until it is viable outside the womb.
I’m sorry you’ve signed onto nature’s sexism. Pro-choice but putting social pressure to equate abortion with murder is arguing that men are be more equal than women and women should go along with that.
huh?
ive signed on with nature
its alive….its a living thing…kind of like a parasite ….i kill tapeworms too…we are killing something thats alive pure and simple…whether you think thats fine or not is up to you…..has nothing to do with natures sexism, whatever that is.
for the record i think men who get women pregnant with unwanted beings that are aborted should all be castrated and left with nothing but bloody stumps.
is that natures sexism too?
About castration … I wouldn’t want that to happen to my husband, … or horny teenaged boys who get their girlfriends pregnant. I’ll like the teenage girls to have sex ed and nofuss access to birth control and abortions.
Your used “murder” in your original post, not “killing”. I agree I killed my fetus. My response to someone who calls me a murderer is to call that person sexist. (I had an abortion after I discovered my birth control failed.) I also eat meat and use leather. What we do to food animals is terrible. I don’t agree with capital punishment, except (maybe) if a murderer murders in prison and is likely to repeat. I’m not upset about women killing unwanted fetuses.
It’s sexist (IMO) to emphasize pregnancy as something that has a moral component because women (as a class) have the largest burden. Also, the male participation is active while the female is passive (the female doesn’t have to have an organism in order to conceive). Human biology is sexist.
The moral component in pregnancy is that once a woman accepts a potential child (or is actively trying to become pregnant) then she has a moral responsibility to that child, before and after birth — if the pregnancy is viable. She’s also morally obligated to consider her other obligations (other children, husband, parents, etc.).
There’s also the moral component of “All men [and women] are created equal” — since men & women are both self-aware and want to make soverign choices instead of being (by definition) a servant.
I just think equating abortion with murder does little to clarify the issue. In most cases, certainly not all by a long shot, having an abortion is the sole cause of a person not being born, and it in effect ends their life (that unique self-organizing structure that can never be replaced). But it doesn’t equate with murder for a variety of reasons, legal, nitpicky, ethical.
Murder as a term should be reserved for the intentional killing of another individual that has already been born and so has all the rights of any other citizen.
Before birth a baby is at most co-equal with the mother. Ethically, you can say that the decision to abort is somewhat more troublesome than deciding to cut off a finger. But it falls short of murder and calling it murder oversimplifies the issue. Plus, it demonizes it.
actually i think there is value in simplifying this issue.
there is a conundrum here about whether murder is bad.
good or bad we all are for it in one way or another.
we just twist it up in our minds to justify it and figure out what is acceptable and what isnt…..its all an illusion…
its like lying…everyone lies….we all just dont agree on what are the acceptable lies.
the term murder is not a synonym for killing for a reason. It is already an attempt to classify a type of killing that is unacceptable versus a type of killing that is acceptable. In most murder trials the fact of the killing is established, but the defendent argues it wasn’t murder because it was in self defense, or because it was an accident, or they were temporarily insane. Murder means something, and it isn’t the same as killing.
So, I think your effort to simplify actually makes things confusing. But I do understand your point.
ok what i am trying to point out is you think the death penalty is murder….pro life people think abortion is murder…….one persons murder seems to be another persons something else…..i think if we thought of it all as murder, which it is…maybe we could find the common ground with each other, get past the illusions we are setting up for ourselves to justify whatever it is, and work on the real issues.
the christians want a christian country…then make thou shalt not kill the law of the land…if they will accept no wars and no death penalty would the pro choice people accept no abortions? is this a compromise worth making? or do we all have to have our way on everything? which means no one has their way and murder continues.
its like the vegetarians who are vegetarians because they dont like the idea of killing animals….well at least not the warm fuzzy ones….killing parasites and pests and dirty little cockroaches is ok but dont kill bambi.
i don’t think the death penalty is murder at all.
i think it is not worth risking the death of an innocent person in order to allow for a system that can execute an innocent one.
hitler and his henchmen deserved the death penalty in my opinion.
Thank you for your eloquent and powerful post. Saddened by the news from CA.
Prosecutors do not speak for the victims or their families. Civil attorneys do that. Prosecutors speak for us – all of society. That’s why it is The State of California v. ___ or The United States of America v.____.
Prosecutors would like us to think they speak for the victims, because that’s the most emotional charged argument they can make for death. And the death penalty is raw emotion, revenge.
One of the things many people don’t know about the appeals process is that the facts of the case are not reviewed. The review is limited to the narrow scope of fairness – judicial error. There is no “appeal after appeal” or judge shopping. Actual evidence of innocence is sometimes not enough to stop the death machine.
One of the things many people don’t know about the appeals process is that the facts of the case are not reviewed. The review is limited to the narrow scope of fairness – judicial error. There is no “appeal after appeal” or judge shopping. Actual evidence of innocence is sometimes not enough to stop the death machine.
That’s so important to emphasize. Under the 96 “Anti-Terrorism & Effective Death Penalty Act” (linked then just as today) there are incredibly difficult procedural hurdles to clear even in order to even present new evidence of innocence. The people recently coming forward to rebut the prosecution snitches will likely never be heard from in a court of law.
As to victims’ families, there’s an interesting book by Rachel King, Don’t Kill in Our Name: Families of Murder Victims Speak Out Against
the Death Penalty.
The career path for many politicians begins as a prosecutor. The political pressure to keep prosecutorial skeletons in the closet is tremendous, plus there’s a huge constituency to be found in the “hang ’em high” crowd. This shit sails through our legislatures and our courts. The 4th Circuit has given up all pretense of fairness and impartiality in capital cases, no matter how often the Supremes knock ’em back.
For anyone who may be in that camp, another book to recommend is by Bill Kurtis, of “American Justice” fame, called “The Death Penalty on Trial”. It’s a frank look at the DP by a guy not known as being soft on crime.
“Actual evidence of innocence is sometimes not enough to stop the death machine.”
Think about it, people.
Governor Schwartzenegger has denied clemency for Stanley “Tookie” Williams; execution will be carried out as scheduled, 12:01am Tuesday morning…
. . . We live in a society that cheers on the killing of fellow human beings. It pretends to believe in God, but then claims revenge and ultimate judgement for itself. I
I’ll post an update in the diary…thanks Cali…I don’t have access to radio until I go to lunch.
broke into the middle of my “guilty pleasure” show (Starting Over).
As for the death penalty, I am of mixed feelings. Overall, I am opposed because of the state of (in)justice in this country…but when the victim is a child, especially when a child is raped then killed, I lean strongly towards wanting to be the one to push the plunger on the needle. Yes, the savage impulses of our forebears don’t die out easily, no matter how “civilized” we think we are…
Botched lethal injections:
There is so much information that isn’t available to most of the population. Most of the information the general public receives is from the 30 second sound bites by news readers. I do not believe that any death penalty ‘method’ is humane – and you have detailed such.
It creates a different perception living so close to San Quentin – with substantially more coverage of executions than perhaps most places. San Quentin’s death row inmates, housing, and executions are an ongoing item in our local news. I am also conscious that being friends with law enforcement people directly affects my perceptions.
Thank you for the detailed information Arcturus and for being thoughtful and detailed in your comments.
My sister, who remains alive and well, told me in her calm and measured way a couple years ago,”If I am murdered even if I’m tortured or raped beforehand, tell the court I don’t want the death penalty for the perpetrator. It won’t solve anything. Tell them I said this.” And I said, “Same here, Sis.”
First, like some others I have personal experience with the murder of a family member and at no time did I ever want to see the murderer executed. I could not see how any good could come from it and I think that seeking revenge is one of the most unhealthy of desires.
I do not believe in using the death penalty as a punishment nor as a deterrent. As a deterrent it clearly is worthless. And as I thought revenge on a individual level was unhealthy, I think it is even more damaging to our cultural psyche — we need to reduce the circumstances where harm to others is considered justified, not expand them.
But there is one circumstance where I think that the death penalty is justified and that is when it the very existence of the person is a threat to psychological health of many people. I would have, for example, been willing for any of the upper level Nazis to be executed because their very existence would have been a cause of pain for a great many, a horrible kind of enticement for others, and a constant temptation to violence for others.
I am against the death penalty. I didn’t always feel that way either but there have been too many cases of innocent people becoming the victims of errors. There is also a part of me(maybe the human revenge side) that feels like death for these murderers is too kind, the easy way out. Does that sound cold? If ever there was a hell on earth prison has got to be that. Let them rot in prison.
I do believe however that there should be limited acces to television, fitness centers etc. A prisoner should not have all the comforts of home until they earn that privelage.
I don’t believe that killing is the answer to any problem, with the exception of fleas and mosquitos. As Ductape says, we’ve still got some evolving to do. Nobody else’s life is mine to destroy, I don’t want my government killing in my name.
I am very disappointed in Arnold. Hence forth, for me, he will be “The Terminator.” Allegedly three new witnesses stepped forward this week who have signed declarations that the witnesses (trying to avoid felony convictions of their own) lied at the trial. To this day, Tookie has maintained his innnocence of the crimes for which he was convicted, in spite of advice from his attorneys. I understand that there may be a moritorium on the death penalty in January while the legislature rethinks this issue. Tookie may be the last person to be executed in CA. I feel very bad about his upcoming execution. I’m still holding out some ray of hope. Apparently another clemency petition has been presented to the terminator citing new testimony. I belive a petition for a stay was filed today with the US Court of Appeal. I live in CA, Sonoma Country, one county removed from San Quintin.
Here’s an article regarding them.
And here.
For what it’s worth from the SF Chronicle of November 21, 2005:
And there’s this by AlterNet’s Earl Ofari Hutchinson:
I post this and the above because the Stanley Williams case, like many death penalty cases is complicated by conflicting interests, political persuasions, versions concerning the witnesses (as in this case — a researcher can find conflicting characterizations), one’s own personal convictions, and the most fascinating aspect of all — the cult of the perpetrator.
To my knowledge there has never been any cult of the victims in any death penalty case. Why that is should probably be a diary topic. But not at this time.
I don’t believe in the death penalty.
I haven’t read Ductape’s comment yet, if one is here, but it would probably be the same as what I would say.
by some of Tookie’s compatriots:
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2005/11/23/america-turns-blue/?p=1506
Also http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=state&id=3713116
I would be very surprised if the martyrdom of one more Black man at the hands of the racist regime would be the catalyst for closing the seemingly never-ending chapter of US underclass meekness.
It would be nice to be proved wrong, though.
everything that is wrong with the death penalty. From the (public) Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s report on the denial of clemency, found here
Governor Schwarzenegger, weakened by a stinging loss on all his initiatives in a special election he called last month, would have risked alienating his Republican party if he granted clemency.
So a man lives or dies – in this case dies – not based on his redemption, his regrets, his actions, his value to society, or on statements about the morals and standards of society, but because of political point scoring and gamesmanship.
Can you vaguely imagine what that must be like?
I can.
in my early 30’s. People in my familyi are allergic to all kinds of stuff. I wasn’t worried that the doc would screw up, per se, but I did think there was a reasonable chance that some drug or another, or combo thereof, would snuff me out. I mean, I had an aunt who had her teeth worked on sans novacaine. Her reaction to it was that severe — they thought she might die the first time she had it.
So. Leading up to the event… I made a will. That helped in a way I hadn’t expected — it calmed a part of me that knew I should have one. I didn’t really have enough time to travel or do any of those fantasies one usually has about “If I’m terminally ill, I’ll do this or that.”
The day before the operation I put into my schedule to go hear a Buddhist monk (female) from Vietnam talk about her experiences there. It was billed as being something about life and death, so I chose it, and I do remember some amazing things she said.
But mostly… I came to the conclusion that I’m not smart enough to figure out what I’d like to do in my final days or hours.
I doubted that anyone would be. I could be wrong, it could be obvoius to some people. I
Do you know the state of TX has a website where you can go read what the prisoners they’ve killed had for dinner? They’ve preserved that for posterity. How sick do you have to be to think it’s a good idea to post that on the Internet?
I mean, if we still had slaves, would we be posting, “Bred Sally and Lucy this week after wife in her bedroom. 50 lashes to Anton while tied to the oak tree. Sold Ben and Judy’s children to a farmer down the road, not a good profit, but no loss.”
I have a word for Arnold. Gosh knows I should have sent this to him in advance, and I didn’t. Mother Theresa said:
Enjoy that experience, Arnold.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/13391493.htm
Harris said he will also ask the governor to reconsider because the state legislature is scheduled to debate a moratorium on the death penalty in January. It would be “a shame,” Harris said, for Williams to be executed before legislators had a chance to vote.
i can’t believe humans are so cruel.
if tookie had shopped all the criminals he has refused to, or if he had unsubbed from the gang, would his redemption have had more cred?
or would the gang presence in prison execute its own version of the death penalty?
is it cowardice or criminal honour code that prevented tookie from completing his rehab?
as is, his arc to fame can be a negative role model. if he had ratted, he could have deconstructed the gang macho-myth better.
either way he’s toast.
karma, it’s a bitch.
i agree that he should be studied, not ‘terminated’.
watching from europe, i am often horrified by the revenge bloodlust given free reign on the msm in the usa.
the hate level is nauseating.
nancy grace symbolizes this trend, to blood-chilling perfection.
forgiveness can’t be faked, but unrestrained eye-for-an-eye is like going back 2000+ years, criminal justice-wise.
would i shoot to kill if i saw someone hurting a child? maybe
would i shoot to kill if i saw someone hurting my child? certainly
some things go too deep for cool reason.
would i prefer to use a stun gun so the perp could be studied?
YES
revenge bloodlust is not unique to the usa….perhaps our press does a better job of exploiting it than the rest of the worlds….but this country only hase a few hundred years of bloodlust history behind it….the rest of the world has thousands of years of experience with bloodlust.
– but you guys are catching up nicely.
Not least yourself:
WTF?
http://cedwyn.blogspot.com/2005/12/people-forget-that-redemption-is.html