I was accused yesterday of “supporting” this custom, and because it is a subject about which I feel strongly, and because I am never without awareness that this is a public board and there may be lurkers with a sincere interest, I will say a few words about it.
First of all, there are some westerners who through their funding and support of indigenous campaigns and education projects aimed at changing the custom, there are every day mothers who choose not to have this done to their daughters, and in some cases, in cultures where it is performed when a girl is older, every day some girls refuse to submit to it in its traditional form.
These westerners are sincere in their desire to see the custom changed, not because they consider its practitioners barbarians, not because they consider their own modalities of oppressing women to be superior, and demand that all others must adopt, for example, the wearing of crippling high heeled shoes, but out of genuine concern for the girls who are harmed by the practice as it has existed for so long.
Therefore, if you ask them, they will tell you that before one can seriously address the issue, first it will be necessary to learn, to listen to the women themselves, and become educated about this custom, what it means, what are the beliefs and traditions behind it, and of course in order to do this, it is necessary to respect the women, to respect their beliefs, their culture, so that one will be able to do this listening and learning with open mind and open heart.
It will be necessary to have honest dialogue with oneself. For instance, a western mother might ask, what if someone from this culture came to me and told me that by not having my daughter cut, I am harming her? That not having her cut will ruin her life, her chances for marriage, make her an outcast in her tribe, her community, even her family? What kind of argument could they make that would persuade me to do this to my daughter?
What if someone from another culture suggested I send my daughter out, at the age of six or so, to sell her body? What sort of credibility would that have?
In other words, it is necessary to see the situation through the eyes of the mothers, and understand that this custom is thousands of years old, older than Islam, older than Christianity, older than Judaism, older even than Hinduism. It is a very deep belief, and to simply say to the mothers, this is wrong you should not do it, it is barbaric, you are barbarians, you are abusers, is to them, no different if they were to say these things to you about your own customs. In the belief of some, a girl who is not cut is as a prostitute, so to tell the mother not to do it, is as if someone tells you to sell your daughter to men for money.
This is not the only custom in the world that is harmful to women. And it is not the only one that some women themselves, women indigenous to those cultures, are working to change. This is not about becoming more western or obeying the white people or admiring them, it is about improving the lives of women, wherever they live.
The indigenous methods that are most successful with this and other harmful customs involve education, and custom tweaking.
For example, instead of cutting, there is a hope that some mothers will choose to adopt a tweaked custom that involves pouring blessed water on the girl, or special prayers, dances, even animal sacrifices, there are any number of tweaks that can be aspired to depending on the particular cultural tradition.
A custom that is thousands of years old and so deeply rooted will not change overnight. It will take generations before the tweaked custom is widely accepted.
This means that even if they move to the west, where different mutilation customs are practiced, they will not abandon the practice just because they have moved to London or Los Angeles. Even though their new western neighbors find it horrifying, these mothers are going to cut their daughters. If even one is persuaded to adopt a tweaked ritual, that is a great victory. Most of them will not.
There is a better chance, perhaps that their daughters who are little girls today will adopt a non-cutting version if they are alive and healthy when they have those daughters.
This is reality, and reality does not always have a relationship to what you or I would prefer. So the reality is, the mothers will have their daughters cut.
Now if they live in the west, the one thing that the west can control in this situation, at least to an extent, is whether the procedure is done under anesthesia, by a surgeon, in a hospital, under sterile conditions and in such a way that she will not be doomed to a life of pain and constant medical problems.
Or it can be done in most likely a small, crowded apartment, with dozens of relatives chanting, coughing, sneezing, on a mat on the floor, surrounded by chanting aunts, with no anesthetic, and the cutting itself performed with some dirty and probably not very sharp instrument by a woman who is as likely as not to completely butcher the child, ushering in a lifetime of complications, no follow-up care, at least in the sense of trained medical follow up care, not even an antibiotic to lessen the inevitable infection of the wound. For that she may receive some herbal remedy, which may or may not work.
However, this is the preference of some westerners who oppose letting the little girls have the hospital option. They have nothing but contempt, certainly no knowledge or respect for the families themselves, their culture or their traditions, and their position is that if the parents will not submit to their opinion, then they wish to make sure that the little girl suffers as much as possible.
Do you think that this kind of attitude is a help to the people who sincerely wish to see the custom change, and are working to do so? It does not. In fact, it makes the work of the brave women, many of whom have dedicated much of their lives to the goal of having as many girls as possible have a tweaked ritual that does not involve cutting even more difficult than it already is!
On the one hand, the message is, that they are being encouraged by their own tribeswomen to choose a ritual that is tweaked to omit cutting, to keep intact the culture and the tradition, but to spare the girl the pain, and if they say, I don’t think I am ready to go that far, but I have thought about the pain, and I would rather have it done in a hospital, the message from the west is, no, your daughter must suffer pain because you refuse to obey us.
So I would ask those westerners to please, look into your hearts and ask if your true goal is to see the custom changed, or to impose your will on people you consider inferior. And if it is the latter, I would beg you to at least try not to make more difficult the work of those who have the former view. They are just little girls.
Note: I have not yet finalized a decision regarding my participation here. However I feel that this particular issue is ill-understood and it is possible that people may not intend to be making the problem worse and maybe just as there are efforts to encourage women to choose the tweaked ritual for their daughters, maybe some westerners can be persuaded to choose a different outlet to express their feeling of cultural superiority.
To put this into some cultural perspective, consider two other equally volatile issues: Abortion and prostitution.
As we know, some anti-abortion groups are absolutely vehement in their belief that abortion is murder of the worst kind, and therefore should be banned under any and all circumstances, regardless of the woman’s individual situation or the hardships continuing her pregnancy may present to her. Their beliefs are based in cultural morality and religious belief, but they do not take into account the lives of the women who are facing that hardship, or the fact that regardless of the legality, there will always be women desperate enough to do anything to end an unwanted pregnancy. And there are many who believe that abortion is nothing more than a medical procedure, and presents a health benefit for the women whose circumstances lead them to make that choice, and their belief is also rooted in cultural morality — that it is wrong to force a woman to bear a child she doesn’t want. Those of us who are pro-choice believe that it is precisely because this conflict exists that the choice should be left up to the woman — but obviously, those who believe abortion is murder are not going to agree.
And then there’s the decision of the Bush Administration to cut funding for international AIDS prevention to groups that do not outright condemn prostitution and sex trafficking, regardless of the fact that cutting that funding harms women already caught up in the sex trades whose health, at least, might be protected were that funding made available. These AIDS prevention groups are not focusing on ending prostitution as their primary objective; they are instead focusing on doing all they can to save the health and lives of women already caught up in it, women whom they would be unable to reach if they complied with the Administration’s demands. Neither side believes that women forced into prostitution either through brute force or economic desperation is a good thing. But is it better to condemn the practice and the circumstances that support it entirely, and leave those women to suffer the high risk of AIDS exposure, or hold back from that moral judgment in order to do whatever is possible to make those women’s lives even a little bit better where they are?
None of these are simple issues; we know that just from the passionate discussions on this site alone. It’s easy to make a moral judgment, but when moral and cultural beliefs come into conflict and the lives of real people are involved, there are no easy answers, no simple solutions to actually resolving those conflicts. Sometimes you have to ask what is the best possible outcome – not the ideal outcome, but the best possible at this particular point in time, under these particular circumstances – and accept that, even when it conflicts with your own moral compass, even when it breaks your heart. And then you keep trying to make that best possible outcome a little better, and maybe sooner or later, that best possible outcome will get closer to the ideal.
(And for what it’s worth, Ductape, I do hope you stay — your perspective and insight are very valuable here.)
You post is sound and valid. Yours are critical arguments. But they do not apply here. She is talking about parents in the US and Europe. She is talking about people WHO FLED TO BE FREE AND WOULD DENY FREEDOM TO THEIR CHILDREN. They do not want to be under the heel of a totalitarian government. BUT they want to be able to implement totalitarianism in their own homes. They have escaped countries where the governments have absolute power, but they want to keep their own absolute power. Here is her argument:
“Powerful adults will mutilate children in the West in violation of the law if you like or not. If you try to stop them they will further endanger their children to the point of murder. They should have the right to mutilate their children because in their culture, female children are less than chattle.”
You have brought forward many important points. They do not apply here.
I truly hope the diarist is not so wedded to the practice because she has participated and cannot face the horror of what she has done. If it were done to her, recognizing the wrong is a first step in healing.
Exactly.
Gee, children as chattle in Muslim culture.
That’s interesting.
In just a few hours, I will be out teaching children in the west the song I always start with in my classes on African drumming: it is called “Balakulandyan” and is about a bird to whom women can go to ask him to bless them with children.
In one version of the song, women go to the bird offering him anything and everything just for the sake of a child.
In another version, the bird comes to a woman who has just had a child and tries to buy it from her. She clutches the child to her breast and says “MY BABY’S NOT FOR SALE.”
This is a song about the value of children in (that particular) Muslim community. Its message is that children are the most valued members of a society.
I always teach this song first when I’m teaching children because, of course, it is their song. But it certainly has nothing “chattle-ish” about it, and I don’t see who or what you are quoting in your statement. All I know is that all of my experience with Muslim culture (mostly in Africa, but also with Muslims living in this country, mostly Palestinians) completely and totally defies any notion of Muslim people considering their children (or their women) “chattle”. Quite the opposite.
I guess that old saw had better move over for “DuctapeFatwa supports FGM”
There are some things in some heads, it does not matter how many times you say it, they have a song in their head and they will sing it, whether they get the words right or not.
And what are you doing in this thread anyway? You have actual knowledge of cultures, including, dare we whisper it – Nom-Muslims – who actually practice this.
So far the response that has made me laugh and cry together at once is from the poster who just doesn’t want the girls to have any ceremony at all – even if there is no cutting!
But I am sure she is very offended that anyone would suggest that she might have some sense of cultural superiority. 🙂
(or do I get to call you gramps now?)
A sign of hope….the children….the children get it
(well, course I’ve left out the FGM part, and I haven’t filled them in on the fact that these songs are from a MUSLIM culture in Africa, far as they know, we’re just doing African drumming)
But the children do get it, in such an incredible and awesome way, they do, they get it…and we are all having so much fun…and if I only had more than a few sessions with them …. oh the things we could learn together …. all these songs…all this wisdom…all this beauty… all this moving so far beyond the grasp and the reach of western culture to a place where there is but this… this connectedness, this relatedness, this complexity, this sophistication, these conversations, this respect for boundaries (following the example of the drum), this sense of responsibility to the collective that is the basic prerequisite to making everything else work…no rugged invidualism here, no bigger, better, Imemoremoremore, gimme all the marbles or else, motherfucker…none of that. Just this: sound like ONE drum.
Really. Shame on me. I need to get out of the hood and into the burbs more often. There is hope there. It is in the children.
Their heads will be filled with songs and stories from this culture, and someday someone will tell them, or maybe they’ll figure it out themselves, they’ll learn that this, too, is Muslim culture. Oh.
Good thinking not telling them it’s of a Muslim culture. Their parents would write letters, probably have you arrested, well the ‘moderates’ would let it go at that, anyway. 😉
Yep. And when I teach them the song for the male circumcision ritual, I am careful to call it “initiation” and not go into the details.
Now, even here in this grown-up adult forum, I certainly am not going to go off on my tangent and personal take on how I think the male circumcision ceremonies in Africa differ from the sterile, non-ceremonial male circumcision medical procedures of the west and are, for many reasons, superior. Nope.
Most people, when they hear about how these young boys are taken out into the woods by their elders to have their foreskin removed in a huge ceremonial act are horrified by it–and yet, they have no objection to the way it is practiced in the west on infants.
But–back to the point someone made about the difference between FGM and male circumcision, that point is certainly valid: I made that point once about 20 yrs ago in Africa when some white guy was trying to say it was the same thing: I said, I tell you what, you think it’s the same? Get up on that table right now and I’m going to cut off your dick with this here swiss army knife. Now we’re talking “same thing.” He didn’t get it.
Has anyone pointed out that there has been some progress in terms of the degree of mutilation involved in FGM, i.e. that some of the truly horrific complete cutting away of clitoral/labial tissue and even of sewing up the vagina has indeed been abandoned; that is, that in some cases, the practice has since been modified and the incisions have become smaller, less debilitating to the sexual function of the women and more a “symbolic” incision.
Btw, did anyone see the film the Piano Teacher, by Michael Hanecke, based on the novel by the radical feminist Nobel Prize winning author (one of only ten women ever to have rec’d the Nobel in Lit) Elfriede Jelinek? There’s a scene in there where the protagonist actually subjects HERSELF to a form of FGM, i.e. slices her own genitals (whether clitoral or vaginal or labial, I know not)….Wonder how that fits into this whole thing. Don’t know. Just wonder. The film won the Grand Jury Prize at Cannes in 2001.
The film and the novel by the same name is said to be largely autobiographical.
minute detail, but apparently the level of knowledge regarding the particulars, and variations, etc. is only slightly higher than that regarding the cultural background.
Which brings us back to the hospital issue. One of the drawbacks, aside from those mentioned in the original post, of legally prohibiting doctors from doing it surgically, is not only the conditions, but what is done.
The “symbolic incision” that you mention is more likely to occur in that setting than otherwise. Now I did not suggest anywhere that hospitals print up brochures and buy ad time on Leno, but as I am sure you know, from time to time, physicians who come from countries where this is practiced are approached by relatives who are concerned about both conditions, including pain and sequelae, as well as the type of procedure that is in store for their little kinswoman, and ask his help. He has a better chance, if not being able to talk the mother out of cutting at all, to persuade her that the symbolic incision is actually more of whatever her particular culture looks for in an FGM, and makes sure that the symbolic incision is as close to non-existent as possible.
Good thing no-one said they were viewed this way. They are, however, viewed this way in cultures that practice FGM. It’s a necessary prerequisite.
Are you saying that all Muslims practice FGM? That’s the only way your comment could make any fucking sense at all in reply to mine.
No, it isn’t. The song (a very, very old one) is from a MUSLIM culture in AFRICA that de facto practices FGM.
I truly hope the diarist is not so wedded to the practice because she has participated and cannot face the horror of what she has done. If it were done to her, recognizing the wrong is a first step in healing.
Look, I disagree with the diarist’s conclusions on this issue. Indeed there are a number of practices including polygamy (widely practiced in Utah) which are, quite simply, unacceptable. I don’t wish to see this culture tolerate FGM any more than I wish to see the Catholic Church or fundamentalist protestants operate homes for unwed mothers.
But this response is personalized, deliberately insulting and completely unacceptable. The diarist is not ‘wedded to the practice’ and has made that quite clear. In my opinion, you and the people who uprated this post have some apologising to do.
After reading this diary all I could think of was that slavery, still practiced in many cultures around the world, is also a custom that has been around for thousands of years. Does that make it right?
Does that make it right?
Again. No one here is saying that the practice of female genital mutilation is ‘all right’ or acceptable. Least of all me.
No? Then why is the diarist arguing that people opposed to the practice are just wallowing in their notions of western cultural superiority?
I think it’s pretty blatant what’s going on here. The diarist has posted something obviously offensive to try and highlight the “hypocrisy” in the community by drawing condemnation, and then relating that to the support susanhu got after the incident with the cartoon. Note that this is a continuation of a post linking susan’s posting of the cartoon to pedophilia, FGM, racism, and assorted other repulsive behaviours. The diarist has merely picked out the element that drew the most fire and elaborated upon it further to try and fan the flames. The diarist’s replies, which change position and tone drastically depending on whether it’s responding to a supporter or detractor, further support this supposition.
No? Then why is the diarist arguing that people opposed to the practice are just wallowing in their notions of western cultural superiority?
I’m pretty sure that that isn’t what the diarist is arguing. The diarist has stated several times that he does not endorse or support the practice of FGM, but he is pointing out (and I think correctly) that this culture has it’s own problems with carefully circumscribed roles for women,olstered by religious doctrine and no less damaging.
I clearly see a great many attitudes of unwarranted, unearned and unexamined cultural superiority in these threads. Are you saying that’s not an evident sub theme in these threads?
Note that this is a continuation of a post linking susan’s posting of the cartoon to pedophilia, FGM, racism, and assorted other repulsive behaviours. The diarist has merely picked out the element that drew the most fire and elaborated upon it further to try and fan the flames. The diarist’s replies, which change position and tone drastically depending on whether it’s responding to a supporter or detractor, further support this supposition.
I read that thread carefully and I was shocked and angered when susan, not DTF linked FGM to Islam and used it as an example of ‘cultural sensitivity’ gone too far. I strongly feel that knowledge of and exploration of other cultural world views is a survival necessity for the US of A. It’s not something we’re good at and there’s a great deal f resistence. I refuse, absolutely refuse to join Ann Coulter, Kathleen Parker and Andrew Sullivan in their Crusade (those being three examples of right-wing pundits speaking out on this using the same talking points.) Indeed, I’ll go further, I believe that if we collectively go down this path it will destroy us as surely as it’s destroying the women and men and children in Iraq right now.
This isn’t a free speech issue any more than the government of Iran’s contest to see who can come up with the best holocaust cartoon is a free speech issue. I wasn’t offended by the picture, I was offended by the message that I should as a liberal express solidarity with Andrew Sullivan and a right wing Danish newspaper.
Or could it be that you simply don’t understand the nuances of his argument?
I find it incredibly insulting that you repeatedly assert in this thread that Ductape supports FGM when he has clearly stated several times that he does not.
The rest of his dialogue is about how to end FGM, and the point he is making, over and over again, is that coming from the point of view of ingrained cultural superiority will do nothing to either end the practice, or in the time it takes to achieve that, give some forms of comfort and aid to the girls who are going to inevitably suffer FGM while we all work to end it.
Ductape’s point as I understand it is really quite simple:
If you cannot imagine looking into the eyes of a mother who wishes to ‘circumcise’ her daughter because she sincerely, utterly believes that to not do so would result in even greater harm to her child; well then you are more than likely coming from a position of cultural superiority, because you are not willing to credence her feelings and beliefs, and help work towards a solution that does not demand total cultural subjugation.
If you cannot give credence and respect to the mother’s beliefs – in the sense of understanding the fundamental and profound part they play in her life – you cannot help craft a real solution.
If you cannot examine your own culture and society, and acknowledge that there are things acceptably done to women and girls within them that are equally as repugnant and (theoretically – and yet we do) intolerable, well then you are not able to look at the two cultures and the practices honestly, and help drive a solution in either.
If you cannot countenance any of those three things above, you are more than likely incapable of dealing with the reality of the situation – so options such as providing for more sanitary and effective medical care simply can’t penetrate the personal anathema of the issue and be considered for their merits purely in terms of the child and mother.
Sticking to the nice black-and-white view that FGM is utterly unacceptable and should never be tolerated doesn’t actually move us any closer to a realistic means of stopping it. All it does is deny the fact that FGM exists within a profoundly complex and rich cultural, and economic etc etc framework, one that can’t be neatly unpicked and FGM excised from to match your and others’ superior cultural sensibilities. Real solutions take time, and involve truly courageous people seriously considering the unthinkable, like clean medical care.
Well done, myriad. I’ve been trying to say that at several points in this diary. You did it much more succinctly than I.
This is very hard. I’m sure that every parent has had at least one moment when he/she realized that raising children to be “successful” in our culture, whatever that culture may be, sets up tremendous conflict in our hearts. What is best for our children? Are they better off molded into Barbie and Ken, or encouraged to be free thinking misfits ? Is there some middle ground between the two ? Just how much difference will your culture tolerate ?
There are lots of ways to mutilate our daughters, lots of ways to buckle our sons into a master mentality straight jacket.
Ductape’s diary isn’t about something “other” out there. It’s about us.
because I have found your posts on this thread to be outstanding.
Thank you for being so articulate on behalf of us all.
Of course from stark the Typing Encyclopedia, and NILinSTPaul’s thought-provoking experiences with the Hmong teen girls, who suffer from another page of the same nasty book, to so much insight and thoughtfulness from so many people. Oh, and the anger, too. 🙂
The problem is, this thread is getting so big, I may be obliged to start a part 2, soon I will not be able to open the thread!
I think I’ll just get you to do it, if you don’t mind.
Oh, how I envy you that gift of brevity!
it’s absolutely not consistent gift. 😉
Glad we are understanding each other here, and thank you for trying so hard in the face of such anger and hostility to reach across the yawning divide.
I even wrote a whole comment about it, and tried to get the angry ones to go look at it, hoping for their ideas about solutions, but at the moment, they are still too angry. 🙂
I think the anger on this thread is really understandable in terms of the topic at hand, it’s just a shame about how it’s being put to use.
I do have to agree with a comment downthread that while I don’t find your smiling ’emoticon’ [ ie 🙂 ] at all offensive, combined with your relatively unusual written voice, it does come off as patronising at times.
and natural. For some people they are having it today, some of us have already had it long ago.
I smile a lot. It is not intended to be patronizing. What emoticon would you suggest to indicate that?
and I apologise for seemingly telling you to conform to a culturally dominant style.
I offered the comment in terms of – as you invest so much time in trying to communicate with people, often across quite large divides of understanding and cultural perspectives, it might be a good thing to know.
I smile a lot too, but I find that my natural facial expressions don’t translate well or sincerely to email and internet blogs.
I hope that makes sense – both bits.
But what is the culturally most acceptable emoticon?
Should I try to invent some?
addresses a lot of what I am getting from your response to this, especially the anger.
here it is again
And I could be way off base, but I am definitely sensing a lot of anger, or maybe you feel that it is simply a topic that should not be discussed?
And of course my “tone” may be different with people I know better, if you will notice, they do not always agree with me, in fact most people disagree with me most of the time.
Polygamy as it is practiced in Utah is a polygamy that is strongly influenced by the West.
I used to be adamantly opposed to polygamy; again, until I began communicating with women who live in a polygamous society.
What I saw was that polygamy actually acted as a form of “collective child care”–so, for example, let’s say the breadwinner/husband of 3 wives has 5 children between them. They divvy up the responsibilities for caring for these children, so that each woman is able to take off a day for herself so she can go do the girlie things we all so love to do (get her hair done, go shopping, visit friends or relatives) and not have to worry about childcare or dragging kids along with her.
The most intense “feminist” experiences I have ever in my life had were experiences in the courtyards of Africa, with the wives of my African drum teacher and their children. Talk about woman-identified community! Talk about a collective, giddy gathering of women and children without the interference of testosterone and its side effects! Never, ever seen anything like it in any feminist context in the west.
(The fourth wife, unfortunately, was a white woman from Germany, and she sure as hell put a damper on the festivities, but the women put up with it because they knew very well that the W in white woman spelled W.E.S.T. and this tie to the W[est] was a necessary evil that served to vastly improve their economic situation, so yeah, the W might as well have stood for “wallet”.)
Sure, there are problems with polygamy (and, as the Mormon example is one case in point, this system, like any other is also subject to abuse), but look at it this way, if a woman in a polygamous society has the bad fortune of marrying a wife beater, if that husband has three wives, then the beatings would also follow the rotation principle, thereby reducing the number of beatings each woman receives by one third compared to the woman who has the bad fortune of marrying a wife beater in the monogamous system that prevails in most of western society.
I’m sure my grandmother, who had the bad fortune of being married to a wife beater, would have benefitted greatly from a polygamous system. At least she’d have had a “day off” once in a while.
Polygamy as it is practiced in Utah is a polygamy that is strongly influenced by the West.
Yes, and that hasn’t improved the practice one bit.
I used to be adamantly opposed to polygamy; again, until I began communicating with women who live in a polygamous society.
Yes well my opposition to the practice is a consequence of communicating with women and men who have escaped from such marriages and such upbringings.
but look at it this way, if a woman in a polygamous society has the bad fortune of marrying a wife beater, if that husband has three wives, then the beatings would also follow the rotation principle, thereby reducing the number of beatings each woman receives by one third compared to the woman who has the bad fortune of marrying a wife beater in the monogamous system that prevails in most of western society.
You know what, wife beating and polygamy are illegal and for good reason.
“Yes well my opposition to the practice is a consequence of communicating with women and men who have escaped from such marriages and such upbringings. “
In Utah, I presume? In a mormon context. (My whole point was/is/and remains that I would not have expected the mormon version to be an improvement).
I’m talking about the polygamy as I experienced it in Africa in one Muslim community and my experience with the women there who have nothing against it. Who in fact benefit from it, and now that they have had enough exposure to western culture, actually prefer their system to what they have seen in the West.
As much as it may be difficult to imagine, there are a lot people in these cultures who have traveled to the west (Europe, US) and who have gone back to their own cultures thanking their lucky stars for the culture they have. They don’t want to be like us. They are happy being who they are. it’s not because they are ignorant of our culture, in many cases not because they cannot “afford” the things our culture has to offer. They don’t WANT them.
(Incidentally, one of the American feminist works that had a very profound influence on my thinking was “From Housewife to Heretic” by the former Mormon housewife Sonja Johnson. From what she described of the Mormon experience, naw, if that were my only basis for judging polygamy, I wouldn’t have a good word to say about it. But it’s not my only experience with polygamy–and the experience in the village changed my opinion of it).
I think it is excellent!
If someone who believes abortion is wrong, is murder, from her personal moral and cultural, religious beliefs, and says to a young girl with an unwanted pregnancy, oh you must have this child because if you do not, it is murder, it is wrong, unless that young girl also shares those beliefs, it is not likely that she will be persuaded, and as you say, if a safe one in a medical and sterile setting is unavailable, she will find a way, and that way may kill her.
So who, then would be responsible for her death?
She herself, for engaging in sexual activity?
Those who denied her a safe abortion?
How could it all have been prevented?
If she had been told more forcefully to practice abstinence by people whose personal morals are against pre-marital sex?
If she had been educated on contraception and safe and reliable contraception made easily available to her, even though some in the society are strongly against contraception and/or premarital sex?
What is the goal? To impose certain moral beliefs on her, and say that her different ones are simply wrong?
Or to prevent an abortion?
.
SAN DIEGO (U.S. Newswire – infoZine) Feb. 7 — … Together they submitted letters and bill proposals via fax, email, postal mail, and hand delivery to more than 2,700 federal and state legislators in a single day — up from 660 legislators the year before. The proposed legislation, written by San Diego based MGMbill.org, would make current U.S. female genital mutilation laws gender neutral so that boys are legally protected from circumcision the same way that girls are protected.
In addition to all 540 members of Congress, state legislatures that received MGM Bill proposals from their local residents today included California, Florida, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, and Virginia.
Male circumcision legislation is also becoming a topic of discussion in several European parliaments. Sweden became the first developed country in modern times to regulate and restrict male circumcision on human rights grounds in 2001, and in 2003 the Denmark National Council for Children called on lawmakers to ban the practice for the benefit of the children.
In 2004, well- known Dutch Member of Parliament Ayaan Hirsi Ali called on fellow legislators to enact a similar ban, and she recently stated on a Dutch television documentary that male circumcision is “a form of mutilation” and that “the consequences can be worse for boys than for girls” when compared to some common types of female circumcision.
● Submission and Theo van Gogh
● Ayaan Hirsi Ali
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Given all the turmoil currently, I’m hesitant to make this comment but I don’t think fearing to disagree is what anyone wants for this site or anywhere else.
I really have only one point of disagreement but I suspect it’s a major one and it’s with this statement “… it is necessary to respect the women, to respect their beliefs, their culture, so that one will be able to do this listening and learning with open mind and open heart.”
I believe that it is necessary to respect the sincerity of beliefs and the legitimacy of other cultures but it is wrong to say that we have to respect actual beliefs and cultural attitudes.
Everyday an orthodox Jewish male will say a prayer giving thanks that he is not a woman. I respect that he truly believes that prayer and the ideas behind it but I have not one bit of respect for either the prayer or the attitude of Orthodox Judaism toward women that it represents.
There are Christians who believe that homosexuals are abominations worthy of hate. I have no doubt that they they think they are righteous and worthy but I will not give any credence or support to anyone who holds such a belief.
There are people who believe that blacks are genetically inferior and argue their point with the fervor of any zealot but the fact that they have a deeply held belief doesn’t stop me from finding it repugnant.
So while I can understand the cultural attitudes that lead to FGM, I have no respect for them. And this has nothing to do with cultural superiority and everything to do with respecting my own belief that all people deserve tob equal treatment and rights, regardless of any social, religious, cultural, or political beliefs that would deny that.
Andi, I absolutely agree. I can come to an understanding and respect of what people believe, but no one can force me to embrace it. Even if the practice is older than dirt. That does not make me culturally insensitive. I don’t think asking me to condone mutilation is the same as asking someone from another culture to pass me the shoehorn as I jam my size 9’s into a high heel shoe. ( although my bunions may differ) High heel shoes aren’t forced upon 6 year olds. That’s kind of an old literary trick to belittle our western view and it’s a little off the mark.
Having said that, I wouldn’t demonstrate against having the practice done in sterile conditions. That’s the best I can do. If cannibals needed me to sell them a better weapon so their victims don’t suffer as much, and I refused to do it, that doesn’t make me responsible for what those cannibals then do, no matter how the arguments are cleverly twisted around. It would, however, make me complicit, and would go against my own strongly held beliefs. No, if women are mutilating their daughters, it is the women who are to blame for their daughters’ subsequent pain and suffering. Not me. Even if the practice is older than dirt.
Actually, I wouldn’t blame either the women or the men. It’s the cultural values and attitudes that are to blame. Providing sterile operations or “tweaking” the ceremony don’t work to change the attitudes that require FGM or the tweaked ceremony in the first place. And if we are held to some sort of standard that says we have to respect all cultural values, then nothing will ever change for women in cultures that treat them as legal, political, and moral inferiors.
True enough. What I was getting at was that no one can force me to participate in a practice I find abhorrent. When I refuse to do so, no one can say that my non participation means that I am responsible for that practice or its consequences. I still say that people are personally responsible for their own actions. If course, what’s a sin in this place is a revered practice in that place. Cultural values and attitudes have been used to excuse everything from honor killings (murder), to female genital mutilation, to suppression of women in the workplace. Humans have always used values and attitudes to hide behind, to supress, to abuse. The big question is who gets to decide what is barbaric and what is a revered religious or cultural practice? When in Rome? Or everything goes? Tough questions, and I sure don’t know the answers.
I didn’t say I condone making sterile conditions available… I said I wouldn’t demonstrate against it. That’s as far as my conscience will allow me to go.
I probably should have made it clearer that I wasn’t disagreeing with the bulk of what you said. It’s just that I think that we have to focus more on the cultural attitudes than we do on an individual’s practice of them.
Just a couple notes, not related to FGM per se, but to cultural superiority:
Various stories from my trips to Africa:
Car full of western men and women (myself included). Group of indigenous women comes up to the car. Some of them are “topless”. White men in the car tell them to cover their breasts. [rolleyes]
Breasts, in that culture, are for feeding babies. Not for men to get hardons over. So the white men, rather than sneak off into the bushes and jackoff or do whatever it takes to deal with their affliction, tell the women to cover their breasts. THAT is cultural superiority in action.
Western women are advised to cover their legs in public (because it’s apparently legs and booty that give Muslim men hardons, not breasts), either by wearing a below-the-knee length skirt or pants. Every time I have been in Africa, I have encountered western “feminist” women who, in their adamant refusal to do in Rome and to assert their own standards of “freedom”, refuse to follow this simple rule. So they walk around in shorts and mini-skirts, offending anyone and everyone around them, completely oblivious to the fact that they are making complete and total asses of themselves. That is cultural superiority in action.
I once had the great, great pleasure and honor of being present at the Karem (?) festivities (end of Ramadan) in a traditional African village, way the hell off the beaten path. During the ceremony, I, too, got my feminist undies in a pathetic bundle of cultural superiority and deliberately refused to put a scarf on my head. One of the women kept gesturing to me from the other side of the courtyard. I knew she was trying to tell me to cover my head. Pigheaded little feminist brat that I was, I pretended it was a “communications” glitch or a wardrobe malfunction or whatever. At any rate, I regret this to this day, mostly because, in my arrogance, my defiance, and suffering from the symptoms of my own cultural superiority complex, I pretty much ruined that woman’s ability to enjoy one of the most important religious ceremonies of the year. I am embarrassed by my own actions to this day. I cringe at the thought of it. I’ll never do it again, but the fact that I not only made a complete and total ass of myself and ruined that woman’s day …. Sigh. My memory of that incredible, incredible experience shall forever be overshadowed by my own idiocy.
Those are fine examples of culture differences but I don’t see how they have anything to do with what I said. Neither the existence of people who feel their culture is superior nor the need to be polite in other people’s “homes” require me to respect cultural attitudes or societal norms that go against my core values.
I guess my point is not so much “respect for” as it is to “do in rome”, i.e. to “observe” the customs when you’re there, but also to allow the people of other cultures to observe their own customs as they see fit and to butt out of it if you don’t like them.
Doesn’t mean you have to condone them or respect them, but you must respect their right to observe them. That’s all I’m trying to say.
If you go back and read my original comment I said:
But no I don’t believe that I should butt out when I know that human beings are suffering harm as a result of cultural beliefs and practices. That’s a prescription for unending misery. However, I also believe that interfering directly with cultural practices generally does more harm than good. Addressing underlying causes is the appropriate way to bring about change. That’s why I support Women for Women International which provides services to women like micro-lending, education, and health care. Women who have money, education, and health are in a much better position to take control of their own futures.
cultural tradition behind FGM – the transition from girl to woman 🙂
Maybe we should look at the cultural reasons behind marking the transition from girl to woman. Maybe we should look at how the transition from girl to woman got defined to mean that her ability to have a full sexual experience should be expunged.
The transition from girl to woman should be the very opposite, and also more, not just the transition from girl to woman, but from child to adult, from dependent to independent, and that is a very important point in the life of every human being, and one that should be celebrated and observed!
Every culture, those who practice FGM and those who do not, is rich enough in tradition to provide an overflowing cornucopia of cultural fanfare with which to mark this transition, without necessitating any cutting of genitals, and it is into that history, that cornucopia, that those who would change the custom must tap, and for that reason it is necessary to get past the “our tribe has superior methods of oppressing our women than yours,” and into the hearts of the mothers whose minds one wishes to change 🙂
You seem to keep insisting that the failure to respect actions which go against my core beliefs is a result of feelings of cultural superiority. I will continue to disagree. It seems that you think that I cannot hold two things in my mind at once — my recognition of the humanity of another person and the strength of my own convictions. I think I can and do.
As far as changing the hearts of the mothers, the fact is that I’m not going to have any opportunity to do so. The fact is that I’m not going to have a chance to change the hearts of most of the people in the world (including the U.S.) who do things I believe are harmful. But I know the way to address problems is to work for incremental change by taking a holistic approach to problems and so look for organizations to support which work in that way. Changing a culture which devalues women is as much if not more a matter of improving women’s choices than it is reaching anyone’s heart.
and if you have interpreted anything I have said as an assertion that I do, it will be the poverty of my power of expression that is at fault.
How do you suppose anyone, and organizations tend to consist of anyones, will contribute to improving women’s choices without reaching hearts?
How do you think social change ever takes place, if not through hearts?
I’m sorry but I have no idea why you are bringing up the future. So it must be me who is not able to express myself. My point was that I may have a great deal of sympathy and concern for a person while still not supporting the actions they have taken. My uncle was killed in a holdup at our family business by a 15 year old kid. I felt a good deal of sorrow about the life this child had led that brought him to the point it did but that didn’t change my feelings about the murder. And I wanted to understand the causes that helped create that child so I could support efforts to change them. Working toward this for me is not a matter of reaching children’s hearts but of helping those who can create an environment in which those closest to children can help their minds and hearts can grow and flourish.
Also, I have more faith, perhaps, in women’s hearts and think that not having choices has as much to do with the actions they take as what is their hearts.
<blockqute>As far as changing the hearts of the mothers, the fact is that I’m not going to have any opportunity to do so<//blockquote>
And I will stand by my assertion that I do not know what the future holds for you.
I will say that you seem to have a pretty good grasp of the importance of hearts, and a pretty impressive one of your own, so you will forgive me if I make no bets. 🙂
Well as usual, despite your claim to being a doddering old fella, you’ve worn me out — but not down.
Thank you for you insight. I must admit I find misogyny problematic no matter how many eons it has been in a culture. From your last paragraph, I gather that you believe anyone who feels differently than you do is acting from a sense of cultural superiority. I don’t think that is fair. Cultural issues regarding women are complex, but in the end as long as women are making their own decisions, so be it. If Middle Eastern women chose to cover themselves from head to toe, it is their decision. If they are required to by men, that is another story. Certainly women in the U.S. bow to misogynistic expectations. A woman who chooses on her own to have silicon pads surgically inserted into her breasts so she feels more attractive is one thing, a woman who does it because her “man” tells her to is another. The first is sad the second is outrageous.
There are some things that cultural differences can never justify in my mind and the repression of women is one of them. You make a valid point about tweaking
the practice of genital mutilation into something medically safe or simply symbolic. That may be the best that can be hoped for in the short term. In the long term I hope all cultures can be taught to overcome their fear of women’s strength and creative powers — which is what misogyny is really all about.
I hope you do not leave BT. I learn a lot from reading what you have to say — even if I don’t always agree with you.
where for millennia, the custom has been, when a young man wishes to marry a young lady, he must give her parents gifts amounting to around what would be a year’s worth of his income.
In the old days, the young man worked hard, saved to buy extra goats, etc. and a couple of burros, and when the day came, hitched the goats to a cart, packed up the burros with the corn and the pigs and what-not, and set out for the bride’s home.
However, as “modern civilization” intruded, the custom degraded, so that in some villages, young girls were being essentially sold to employees of companies for a sum of cash.
The women themselves worked very hard to tweak the custom a little, so today, the young man must present the girl’s parents with a gift of great value – that he has made with his own hands!
That stopped the city boys in their tracks, and the essence of the custom, and family life, and culture, has been preserved.
In Africa, a custom that requires widows to sleep with other men in order to set free the spirit of her late husband had become very dangerous, because of AIDS.
But there is growing success in a tweaking of this custom, so that instead of sleeping with men who (probably, because it is Africa) have AIDS, she dances around and finally jumps over her husband’s bones, thus releasing his spirit, and preserving her life.
No woman “chooses on her own to have silicon pads surgically inserted into her breasts so she feels more attractive” in a vacuum.
She does so in the context of a culture that values her appearance almost to the exclusion of everything else about her.
Shouldn’t we be asking why feeling attractive has any importance all ? Why WOMEN’s concern about their attractiveness seems normal and natural, but a
similarly obsessed man would be a laughing stock ?
This is the test for sexism. If you substitute men for women in a given situation, and it doesn’t feel “normal” anymore, it’s sexist. While this is an over simplification, it at least exposes the problem, and prompts deeper reflection.
Can’t argue with what you said.
It is interesting that while we are horrified by female genital mutilation, it is generally acceptable in our culture for women to inject botulism, have fat sucked out of their bellies, and have surgical incisions in their breasts to make them the right shape and texture. All of these procedures are painful and carry significant medical risks.
And mothers in this country often encourage their daughters to do these things or, by doing these things themselves, model the behavior for their daughters.
Given that one theme of the diary was cultural superiority, I think we need to work on cleaning up our own house while working to protect women/girls around the world.
Sometimes it seems to me that young American women who wear next to nothing in order to gain men’s approval are giving up as much of themselves as Muslim women who wear burkas do to gain the approval of men in their culture.
beautiful women, and the most superior methods of oppressing them 🙂
I agree, and I think that this is the path to which Ductape has been provocatively luring us.
It’s easy to play “spot the sexism” in an unfamiliar culture. We are also less likely to blame the victims because we can afford to see them in the larger context of their power structure. If a woman in some hypothetical culture could never get a job with short hair, we will not be surprised if her mother won’t let her daughters play with scissors. Reasoning with Mama about the foolishness of demonizing scissors is futile so long as her child is at risk for unemployability. It is the society’s unfair hiring practices that need to be addressed.
Seeing the sexism we grew up with is much harder. It’s the way things are. It’s what we’re used to.
We are rightly horrified by FGM, but we mutilate baby boy’s genitals every day in America, and we are not out in the streets picketing hospitals. We grew up with routine circumcision, and most people don’t even think about it.
Then there are breast implants. This is like a sick joke. Many women experience strong erotic feelings (I don’t want to be pruriently explicit here) associated with their breasts. Implants can destroy that sensitivity. Women are SACRIFICING their true sexiness in order to APPEAR sexy to men. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it ? What is “sexy” ? Is a sexy woman one who enjoys sex, or is her only important function to produce erections in men ?
Future generations will look back at the varied but systematic subjugation of women the way we look at slavery and ice pick lobotomies, and ask, “What the hell was WRONG with those people?”
When I first saw this diary, I was fumbling around in my head for the words that you just so succinctly wrote. Cosmetic surgery of various sorts (breast implants, face lifts, liposuction, botox), the slow suicide of anorexia and bulimia came to my mind fairly readily. The common denominator is that those who undergo cosmetic surgery and those who end up with eating disorders are disproportionately female – generally in reaction to culturally imposed standards of physical attractiveness.
Let’s just say that as a newly 40-something male, my hair is thinning and graying, I have a few more wrinkles than I once had, and I’ve developed a bit of a beer gut. It doesn’t occur to me to have myself carved up, implanted, or whatever in order to make myself more appealing. Instead, I show up to my job looking most days like I shop at the same places that Michael Moore does. I have the distinct impression that if I were a 40-something female, I’d be taking a considerably different route – or at least would feel the pressure to do so.
I wish I were more knowledgeable about anthropology at times – I wonder if these sorts of double-standards (including the mutilation of genitals) is primarily the artifacts of patrilinial and patriarchal cultures, and how these practices might be viewed from, say, those belonging to matrilinial cultures.
Just a few things to occupy my thoughts.
One of the main points of Mary Daly’s “sado-ritual syndrome” and the whole argument in Gyn/Ecology was indeed this: FGM, Suttee, Witchburning, WESTERN GYNECOLOGICAL PRACTICES and NAZI MEDICINE all had seven things in common, these seven things comprise the Sado-Ritual Syndrome.
The things that women in the west do to themselves (and their children, I’m thinking Jene Benett (sp?)) are just as barbaric as these other cultural practices. Just as barbaric.
I have looked into my heart, at length, on this issue and many other issues that pertain to the customs and lives of other cultures, and I did not like much of what I discovered.
First of all, in spite of perceiving myself as free of racism, there it was after all, subtle layer after subtle layer, accumulated over a lifetime of conditioning as an American born in 1940.I did not understand the negative reaction of some blacks at my college, for example, who did not appreciate my efforts to get to know them by being “brave enough” to join them in the Black Studies room. Why weren’t they grateful this white woman was willing to do this?
Second, I found layer after layer of American arrogance and superiority I honestly never knew was in me. I grew up in times when it was necessary to elevate ourselves and dehumanize others in order to be able to kill them. I was well conditioned that I was an exceptional human being simply by virtue being born an American. Even though I was a woman in times so sexist they cannot be imagined by many younger people, still, I was “better than” those uncivilized people in other places.
It was the Native Americans who took me in in my 40’s, when I was nearly dead from alcoholism who helped me begin my understanding of how conditioned I was, to see my own ways as so superior to theirs. I learned some very hard, even humiliating lessons, as I strode among them(from all good intention,) trying to “spread my superior awareness” about many things, to these “uneducated” women, like some benevolent savior. They hated me. They suffered me. And then they became my teachers.
The older I grow, the harder it is for me to be so certain I am right and others are wrong. Different, certainly. And some of those differences go so deep I I know I can never fully understand them.
As an RN, if faced with a situation where I could see with no doubt, that a young girl was destined for FGM no matter what, and I had the power to see that this procedure was done in safe, sterile conditions that would allow her to live the best life she could, although it would cause me no end of inner anguish personally, I want to believe I would help.
Because it’s not about me. It’s about her and her continued survival as a member of her own culture, not mine. Then I would continue to do what I could to support those who are working from within that culture, to change this custom.
Ductape, you have a choice to make now, as to whether you go or whether you stay. I would honor any decision you made; how could I not, having had to leave beloved places behind myself, when I grew too weary or too angry or too hurt to stay. Maybe your work here is finished and another place is calling. Only you can know.
I would only hope you consider not deciding, until the initial hurt has eased a bit, and emotions settle some. Right action comes from the calmness of spirit, not from emotion. But you know that.
Be well, brother.
Scribe,
If I could give you a hundred fours, ten thousand hugs and kisses, a million dollars and a publishing contract for this post, I would.
The most important point you make is that your “discovery” of your own feelings of cultural superiority was triggered by hands-on experience with those whom your culture had taught you to believe were inferior. The western world suffers hopelessly from its own cultural superiority complex, and this complex is so firmly rooted in the very fabric of socialization that it is nearly impossible to detect as long as you remain within that culture.
The same applies to men in sexist cultures: it is almost impossible for them to see the myriad manifestations of misogyny and sexism in themselves as long as the culture around them remains firmly entrenched in the patriarchal mores that sustain their culture–even today sexism abounds, even in so-called “liberal progressive” men, even is men who self-identify as feminists! (Note to Andi: another reason I threw in the towel on Feminism: I got tired of trying to point out to the supposedly reformed and rehabilitated sexists now calling themselves “feminists” how and where and why they still hadn’t transcended their own sexism).
I consider FGM an abhorrent practice, and there was a time when I, too, could go on and on about this, pointed finger raised to the heavens, spouting off all the reasons that FGM is a despicable, sexist, mysoginist practice, pontificating, moralizing, blahfuckingblah.
I spent many years working with the one white western woman who may have been the first to have drawn collective attention to this problem–if not the first, then certainly the most astute; I am cited in her work; we agreed on just about everything and held many conversations (and many lectures) in many places (Ireland, Germany, Switzerland, Italy); that experience radically influenced my thinking and my life.
I’m referring to Mary Daly and the book “Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radica Feminism” which draws comparisons to the common thread of misogyny evident in the Indian practice of Suttee, Chinese footbinding, FGM, European witchburnings, and American gynecological (!) practices and Nazi medicine (!)–outlining the way each of these “cultural traditions” participates in a re-enactment of Goddess Murder in a phenomenon she brilliantly describes as the “Sado-Ritual Syndrome.” In 1986, she applied the same model of the Sado-Ritual Syndrome to the “accident” at Chernobyl while on a speaking tour of German-speaking countries–I was living in Germany at the time, experienced (literally) the fallout from the “accident”, and was Daly’s interpretor for the tour. We continued to collaborate till around 1992.
Even though there are many, many points of agreement between us to this day, we have since parted ways (So for example on 9/11, I had to pick up the phone when the two greatest monuments to phallic reality in these dis-united states came crashing down, I just had to pick up the phone and call Mary b/c I knew she would be the only person in the country who was radically feminist enough to carry on an intelligent conversation with me about what I was feeling that day. Yep. We’re still thinking a lot alike on a lot of things. And yep. She still hasn’t gotten over her own cultural superiority complex as a white western academic woman).
It is no coincidence that my split with Daly (and with American feminism) came at the same time I began traveling to and getting to know the people of a Muslim community in Africa and gained first-hand experience with FGM as a cultural phenomenon in that culture, and with women in that culture. In these trips to Africa, in these communications with people from that culture, I began to see the various and sundry symptoms of cultural superiority in myself (and in Daly, and thus necessarily in the American feminism I have since come to disavow).
My point here is not to get into a discussion on FGM. Since one thing I have absolutely retained from my work with Daly is the radical part of the metaethics, I want to step back and get to the root issue. The root issue is: we as westerners have no business dictating standards for the rest of the world. Period. Unless we have extensive experience with the people and the culture we are discussing, we have no business pontificating about it either. The fact that we are arrogant enough to presume this to be our right (even more paternalistically arrogant: to assume it is our responsibility to do so) is glaring evidence of the fact that we still suffer from this cultural superiority complex.
FGM is abhorrent to us. Maybe it is abhorrent per se. It certainly is abhorrent to me. But it is not my place, as an outsider to that culture, to make that call. Especially not if I don’t have a whit of experience in that culture or with people from that culture. The best I can do is seek to make the conditions under which it occurs as “safe” as possible.
People who live (and/or work and dine) in glass towers should not drop bombs:
One of the central pillars, for example, of my cultural framework as a Native American is that it is a thing of absolute disgrace for one person to have great wealth while others go hungry. However, much to my dismay, the unsettler population of this country has since violated that fundamental principle so egregiously and more egregiously so because they have done so on Indian Land, I become outraged every time I hear them getting up on their soapboxes to rant and rave about the horrific customs of other peoples. This has been a source of profound psychic distress to me since the day I was born, and, unless I live to be twice as old as my 107-old Ojibwe great grandmother or at some point get a job as an Exxon CEO and can thus start single-handedly redistributing wealth on a grand scale, I am likely to continue this suffering till the day I die.
So I have no patience for any pontificating on the moral pros and cons of any practice anywhere else in the world in the context of a culture that has violated just about every basic tenet of my moral belief system as an American Indian. Greed is just one of many issues at stake here. Greed as traditional family value. Greed taken to the point of absurdity under Reagan and now, under BushCo, to the point of obscenity.
Living in this country is a daily assault on everything I hold sacred. And I am not alone. The principle of “no man shall starve while others thrive” is basic to every single Native tribal belief system. We all suffer from the hideous violation of that principle in every aspect of this culture that has been plastered on our soil. I would suggest that this greed and the economic disparities that result from it effects far more human beings not only in this country but worldwide, that it has done much more to debilitate and destroy the lives of human beings–women and men–than FGM.
What is more: I don’t see women or men from Muslim countries armed with scalpels and looking for any clit they can cut out of anyone anywhere. I do, however, see the proponents and purveyors of greed scouring the planet in search of anything they might exploit, excavate, expropriate and/or exterminate in order to line their gilded cages with more, more, more, leaving poverty and devastation in their wake.
In short: clean up your own culture first. Then, if you have the time and inclination, travel to the cultures in which FGM is practiced, develop relationships with the women of those cultures. If they then request your assistance in this matter–give it to them.
<< and this complex is so firmly rooted in the very fabric of socialization that it is nearly impossible to detect as long as you remain within that culture.<<
I agree. I really, really did try to be productive part of western culture.I succeeded for awhile but in time, it almost killed me off, the scrabbling to attain and maintain that material “evidence of sucesss” it seemed to require. But I’ve never once in my life felt “at home” here. More like an alien, in fact.
As I slowly came to understand more about the Native American culture, (from my view within it), I felt my first sense of “belongingness”: almost a “coming home at long last” feeling, at actually being with others who felt as I did, about so many things. Maybe it’s the few drops of Indian blood passed along to me, I don’t know.
All I know is that this experience, along with others including a time within the Mexican American culture, (and now the unique culture I am now a part of as an “elderly and disabled” poor American), have all enriched me immeasurably. (Which goes to show there can indeed be a very bright side to misfortunes like addiction and disability and aging!)
Oh, and that million dollar publishing contract? I’m open to that if it should ever come along! Till then, I gratefully accept the hugs and the 4’s!)
Scribe,
Were it not for people like you, I would be down in Africa (or somewhere out in the canyons of the southwest, maybe up north on some remote reservation–where the rest of my family is) looking for a cave with lots of cavemen and women to crawl into and be sophisticated in a way that would blow the minds of the west if they could ever, ever concede to shedding the shackles of their own cultural superiority complexes….;-).
But as long as western culture continues to bulldoze the living shit out of everyone else in the name of what they have called “progress”, and as long as there is evidence that people who are the products of these primitive, utterly savage, utterly brutal and incomprehensible cultures 😉 can be reformed (and you provide that evidence) … I will continue to try and translate…..
And hey, if I ever win the lottery, mark my words, I will be in touch.
Peace and blessings to you…I will drum a few measures for you today….
another has plenty.
Yeah, likewise. I hafta say that growing up in the suburbs, raised by white folks, that was a basic tenent of our family life, also. That may seem impossible, but it’s true. My parents came from worlds, small places, where people cared for each other.
I just posted a diary “Barn-raising, Noble and Needed Tradition” because I wanted to open up dialog about community on this board. What’s more important?
I think we can recreate this. Would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Believe me, were it not for the fact that there are a precious few people who adhere to this basic tenet of human decency, you and I would not be having this conversation because today I would either be A) dead, B) incarcerated or C) panhandling on the street. I’ll check out your diary.
I will say this much: I got ‘lucky’ in that regard. My siblings didn’t. And too many millions of other children in this country don’t happen to get that lucky.
for women like you, who are not afraid to ask hard questions 🙂
And I thank you for your wise counsel, and I will take it. I will make no final decision until, as you say, my heart has healed a bit.
I disagree with you on this practice. Though it may be thousands of years old and ingrained in that culture it is still mutilation and western hospitals should not sanction it. Perhaps there should be a source for providing local anesthesia and sterile instruments to those parents who insist on mutilating their daughters, but it should not be done in hospitals. I will be highly offended if you take from my statement that I would prefer the little girl suffer more.
I cannot see into your heart, but I can ask questions, how offended would you be if these women came to you and said that you must do it to your own daughter because of their very strong belief that not to do so was wrong and abusive?
I can handle the occasional Viagra commercial, when it is shoved down my throat. But I’m absolutely not waking up to debate this topic. As always, you bring a whole new lens to the microscope. A lens that has enriched my life for the past many months. Which leads me to this —
There are a few writers, for me, who have changed my life. All of them shifted my consciousness. Gave me new and entertaining outlooks on what it means to be a human being. For me, a poor American with access to a library, they were Steinbeck, Vonnegut and Chomsky. I’m loathing the day when Vonnegut and Chomsky join John at that great Pasta Bar in the sky. Who will replace them?
But I have to say this — because you are considering leaving. You have joined that list in my own small world. Your writings — even comments — almost never fail to provoke me to some new insight. They are clever and intelligent and fresh. I’m not going to beg you to stay. I take it day by day here myself. Balancing my need to read and write with somewhat like-minded persons. And frequently tell myself, no more time can be wasted in front of the computer. So I can appreciate your principled weighing of the value of being a part of this community or that. But the place is like a home to me. And your writing helps make it that. So if appreciation is any part of your calculus, I wanted to say these things (even though I’m sure most of what was said could be read in the subtext of my other comments to you in this past year).
So long, and as our good friend Douglas Adams might say, thanks for all the fish.
BostonJoe did such an nice job saying what I’m thinking, I just want to echo him here (I know, I’m cheating). I look forward to your comments and diaries every day, because I love your writing and insights and perspective (even on the occcasions when I don’t totally agree with them). And it will make me sad if you take that away.
I don’t suppose we will ever know Bob Dole’s true feelings on this topic, or what experiments he may have performed on himself, however, I would be in favor of persuading women to substitute the waving of a Viagra tablet, even if accompanied by a photo of the leering Mr. Dole, over the head of the girl as a substitute for the tradtional and more, um, invasive procedure.
Thank you for the compliments. No matter how vociferously you may deny it, to me you are clearly a man of outstanding personal hygiene.
and think about the suffering that the girl will endure for the rest of her life. Think about the pain her first intercourse, childbirth, and old age.
The Chinese bound little girls’ feet for centuries and the length of the tradition does not mitigate the terrible suffering it caused from day one.
Did I attempt to understand the historical motivation for these cruel practices, yes.
If a Western woman goes to a strict Muslim country, she is expected to cover herself from the top of her head to the tip of her toes. If a Muslim woman comes to a Western country, she should obey the laws of that country against child abuse.
I meant to type “African woman” not “Muslim woman” – but it was only a hypothetical so I hope it was not inflammatory.
I’ll grant you that, with reservations. Indeed, for Muslim women living in western culture, the issues become far more complicated. My arguments, I guess, apply to Muslims in Muslim countries.
But, here is a parallel:
The use of peyote is illegal in this country is forbidden by US law. But the use of peyote is a central part of some Native American religious traditions (primarily in the southwest).
Am not sure what the details are on the current legal status of this debate (since the use of peyote is not a part of my own tradition; we here in the woodlands had similar issues with spearfishing in the great lakes for example, and the inuit have similar issues with seal hunting)….but you see where I’m going: what happens when laws conflict with the right to freedom of religion and cultural expression?
I meant “African woman.” Nevertheless, I will not get into the legalities of herbs or non-violent traditions of First Nations, which I respect. The subject here is child abuse and there is no equivocation in my mind on that subject as I was once a victim and no one cared.
in the case of the Inuit, the staunchest opposition came from conservationists and animal rights activists who saw in the Inuit practices cruel and unusual treatment of animals–largely because they did not understand or accept the Inuit understanding of their relationship to the animal world.
Yes, I knew a white teacher who worked near James Bay. There was an overpopulation of sled dogs because of the introduction of the ski doo. She witnessed wires put around huskie puppies’ necks so they would die a slow death of strangulation. She could not understand the practice.
Let’s get real and not equivocate on the subject of female genital mutilation/child abuse.
let’s get real and clean up our own shit before we go digging around in other people’s underwear drawers.
FGM is none of my business.
when it is discussed on this blog and when I see documentaries with African women pleading with the public to get involved in putting an end to this cruel practice.
in our own country’s history to see where the laws of the United States trumped religious/cultural expression…the government came down hard on the practice of polygamy in the Mormon church, enough so that Utah had to ban it before they could become a state. Now, I’m not supporting polygamy as it’s usually practiced (especially when you’ve got 13 and 14 year old girls “married” to 50 year old men), but in this economy, some form of group marriage might actually be beneficial.
It’s a sticky situation when cultural values collide; this was something I had to deal with when I took Intercultural Communication many years ago as my Humanities requirement. I’m still trying to resolve some of the issues in my own mind, so I really can’t add anything to the discussion that hasn’t been said.
But DTF, please, keep challenging me and my perceptions, or I’ll get stuck in a rut and turn into my mother…a more liberal version, true, but I don’t want my brain to be frozen in a particular mindset for the rest of my life…
in Canada on the grounds of religious freedom. 70 year old men are allowed to take 14 year old brides, one after the other in Bountiful, BC. But as evolution would have it, some of the brides are breaking free and they are helping other women in Bountiful to break free from this ‘religious freedom.’
I’m glad I waited until this morning and had the chance to read this before responding to this discussion. I know that last night when I read the original comments I was incredibly angry – and I actually dreamt about it.
You see, we can talk about the moral dilemma you have posed Ductape, and it is a difficult one – whether to assist parents who believe they must do this to their girls. But that’s not where my reaction came from last night.
I know that in order to provide whatever support we can to change this kind of practice must be done from a place that understands and values, history and beliefs of the people involved. That’s why my only involvement with this issue has been to provide small financial support to indigenous groups that help educate women and girls.
But I WILL maintain my right to say that it is wrong and not be accused of being insensitive to cultural differences. I’ve had very personal experience with this in the last few years in working with people who are Hmong and have settled in great numbers here in St. Paul. They have some wonderful things in their culture that we need to learn from – but they also continue some very misogynist practices. I’ve spent hours talking to young Hmong women about their beliefs, values and experiences. And I know that I can respect their culture AND at the same time do everything I can to fight the oppression of women. If we can’t do that for the women of both this country and the world – then I’d say we are abandoning the fight of our lives.
<<And I know that I can respect their culture AND at the same time do everything I can to fight the oppression of women.>>
Agree totally. I’ts a very difficult balancing act, between striving to understand and accept another culture’s practices, while still standing firm for the right of all women to be treated as equally valuable human beings.
Right now, I am pretty concerned about our ability here at home, to preserve our current degree of equality and freedom from oppression. Yes, it is the fight of our lives, and apparently it is one that must be fought over and over and over again.
feel with their hearts, comprehend that to them, their “right and wrong” is just as strong and unshakable as your own.
Before the mysogyny, there was the transition from child to woman. So the approach can be to be even MORE traditional than thou. 😉
Believe me, I saw it with their eyes. I’ll never forget one evening when we had gathered a group of young Hmong women together to talk about what was going on with Hmong girls in this community. As we discussed the fact that so many of them were running away from home, getting involved in the sex trade, and commiting suicide, I asked why. One woman said that it was a result of sexual assault. My response was to ask if sexual assault was more common for Hmong girls than others in our community. She said “Yes, its happened to all of us.” Every head in the room nodded yes. You see, in their culture, this is the the “ritual” for girls to progress to womanhood – rape (this was their description – not mine). I went home and cried that night – and vowed to join them in doing whatever I could to support young girls in their culture being able to grow up without this particular “ritual.” I also went back to read the end of Alice Walker’s book “Possessing the Secret of Joy.” And what does Walker say is the secret of joy? RESISTANCE.
Not that it is any less tragic that the Hmong do it.
This is another example of a good thing – the transition from girl to woman, from chlld to adult, that has an aspect that is, to say the least, not so good.
And as with other FGM and other similar customs, it will not be changed by simply telling the girls’ parents that it is wrong and they are bad for doing it, but through education, and understanding their way of seeing it, and understanding it well enough to be able to work toward actually changing the ritual to one that does not involve rape, and by rape I mean sexual activity of any kind.
What is encouraging to me about your story is that these girls seem to be not so accepting of it, or reluctantly accepting of it, and because they will have daughters of their own some day, there is a very good chance that again, with education, and an understanding, not just of their view, but of their parents’ view, that at least some of them might be more open to an indigenous campaign to alter the ritual.
Because there seems to be some misunderstanding here and there about what I mean, if you don’t mind I will use the Hmong example, which can also be extrapolated to other harmful customs.
It is not enough to simply say, well let’s just bring this girl’s father in on this or that criminal charge.
This is not likely to be helpful to the girl, and less likely to mean a different fate for her younger sister.
What it will mean is a closing of ranks among the entire community, with fewer people willing to attend adult education or English classes, much less talk even with Hmong social workers.
So why it might seem unthinkable to not just arrest the parents, again, what is the desired goal?
Ductape, I have spent much time lurking in the various threads and have put forth little in the way of comments. But I must speak up about this. You have consistently framed your argument as inferior/superior with respect to the attitude of westerners. I don’t doubt that denying hospital facilities to these girls will send them to the back rooms to achieve the desired result. But at least for me, I don’t see it as a matter of having superior western practices. (These days I’m finding less and less in the west of which to be proud.) Instead, I would prefer not to see these girls suffer, superiority/inferiority being irrelevant to my attitude. As a parent, I suffer when my child suffers. I would like to see all children avoid suffering of any kind. Yes, the practice will continue. But if my desire to see children avoid suffering makes me an ignorant and haughty westerner in your eyes, so be it.
hear, hear. And let not the suffering of children wait for ‘tweaking.’
If we overhear a child screaming and the sounds of abuse in the next apartment, we don’t wait, we dial the Operator and ask for “Zenith 1234” (24 hrs.
Please explain “Zenith 1234” (24 hrs).
Thank you in advance.
in Canada to report suspicion of child-abuse. The caller can remain anonymous if he/she so wishes.
There is also a number for children to call:
Kid’s Help Phone 1-800-668-6868 (24 hrs)
I wish they had been in existence when I was a kid.
very well anymore.
What is important is, if you wish to see the practice ended because you wish to end suffering, you may have to think beyond yourself, certainly beyond me, and focus on the mothers who will be making the decision.
Learn to understand “where they are coming from” and maybe there will be a chance you can persuade them to think about some alternate destinations, from their own view, with their own eyes, not yours or mine.
Supporting it? It sounds more like making exceptions for it. Is this another example of the age-old notion that when it comes to social revolution, women should continue to wait their turn until all other injustices have been addressed?
I’m trying very hard not to resort to the various expletives going though my mind in reaction to your assertion that objection to the practice of cutting out a woman’s clitoris and vulva is a manifestation of people wanting to express some “cultural superiority.”
And your suggestion (not here specifically but in other posts) that this practice is somehow more tolerable because it is the women who enforce it, is a strawman. Of course they enforce it — every mother knows that to not do it is to stigmatize her daughter and make her an outcast in her own society . And this would be a fate for that “little girl” that would be worse than death or any amount of pain.
I’m not going to get into a discussion about how socieities organize their rules and traditions around the notion that men are always to retain superiority over women, because it is just too big a subject, but I will just mention it because it is so frequently overlooked, and it is the invisible backdrop to every woman’s life.
Women are the slaves of he world. Genital mutilation is just one specific manifestation of that from one specific culture, but women’s status as second class citizens spans all cultures. It is in fact the one thing that all women have in common regardless of their position within their own little sphere of the world. I oppose genital mutilation from that perspective and frankly your suggestion that those who object are just motivated by feeling smug or superior is about the most offensive thing I have ever read here.
While everyone was busy skewering Susan about her posting of the offensive cartoons, one thing kept running through my mind: as a western woman, I am assaulted by offensive imagery of my gender on a daily basis. Thousands upon thousands of images, portrayals, songs, advertisements, movies, “fine arts,” in every sphere of life, ridicule and trivialize my gender. It is in fact so pervasive that most of the time we don’t even notice that it is there. But there is nary a bus stop or commercial interlude on the radio that does not in some manner uphold the notion of women as ridiculous, weak, silly, trivial, vain, dumb, petty, bitch, slut, or some other derogatory characterization.
So within this world, we are discussing female genital mutilation and why it is okay because it is “cultural” and because the women choose to do it. Freedom of choice is largely an illusion though within the bounds of social, political, and cultural realities.
as a western woman, I am assaulted by offensive imagery of my gender on a daily basis. Thousands upon thousands of images, portrayals, songs, advertisements, movies, “fine arts,” in every sphere of life, ridicule and trivialize my gender
Your eloquence has ‘soothed the savage beast’ in my heart over what I have been reading here.
<<<Freedom of choice is largely an illusion though within the bounds of social, political, and cultural realities.>>>
Truer words I’ve seldom seen. It was the boundaries of my social, political and cultural realities that led me to abandon all personal dreams I had for my life to become a wife and mother at age 19, and a nurse at age 32, when left a widow. These were two of perhaps three or four acceptable choices for women of my day, in that small, narrow world.You cannot “choose” something you don’t know even exists.
🙂
Ooooh, superior much? I leave others to see the irony of your responses here.
I love your diaries DF, they are some of the best things out there, but you’ve dug yourself in a hole on this one. And now I’m watching you rather creatively dig yourself out.
in no hole, and have no need to get out.
I will state my position in as few words as possible, for me this is a challenge.
I am opposed to the custom of cutting the girls. I would like to see the custom change. However, I realize that the fact that I am opposed to it, or think it is wrong, is not likely to hold much weight with people for whom it has been a tradition for thousands of years.
Unlike many here, I am not confident that merely declaring to a woman that she is a barbarian and my tribe good her tribe bad, will have much effect on her decision to continue the cultural tradiion of generations.
I do not really care whose tribe is good or bad, my goal would be to see the girl avoid being cut.
And yes, I realize that such a position is very controversial in the west. 🙂
Condescending (thanks ‘poemless’ for the word) and self-righteous. Effusive flattery to those who agree with you, and utter disdain for those who do not.
and your brothers and sisters in anger. 🙂 I think maybe your anger may be superficially directed at me, but on reflection, one of the things I notice, in almost all responses, is a sense of frustration that there are not instant solutions, better solutions, more solutions.
And I think that is a good sign. I think that shows that there is the dawning of an awareness that it takes more than “a simple declaration of personal opposition, I’m against it and that ends the matter.
Especially reflecting on NLinStPaul’s comments on her experiences with the Hmong people, who have a custom that while it is not FGM, it is rape, and so I think brings up some similar questions.
In “real life” discussions of this topic with western groups, I have also noticed this sense of frustration, and a tendency to say, well, it is a crime, arrest the parents, lock them up.
But almost before the words are out of the mouth, there is more frustration. Because what good will that do?
You see, we are back to the question of what is the goal? And also into the even more unpleasant ground of
And how do we achieve it?
I believe there is also some frustration because even those who are the angriest are intelligent people, and they know that child abuse is not exactly a problem that western society itself has really gotten a handle on solving.
What options is western society prepared to offer to the Hmong girls who feel that their only chance of escape is running away to another sexually exploitive situation?
What is society prepared to offer to the child who is found to have been a victim of FGM, let us say that the authorities dutifully go and arrest all the parents and put them behind bars and throw away the key. Well, at least until they get out because the child refuses to testify against them, in the case of the Hmong teens.
To close-knit immigrant communities, the strong message that is received is that any contact with the mainstream society is to be avoided at all costs, including the cost of a child’s life.
In what way do the other little girls in the community benefit from this strong message?
Now here is a very big question for you, and others who are angry.
How can you channel that anger into solutions?
So far, we have, for the most part, been talking about indigenous campaigns to change the custom of FGM in the lands where it is most prevalent, and in very general terms, how some of those principles can be utilized among immigrant communities. But this is a long term proposition, and addresses only one aspect of the reality that exists today.
What solutions can western society offer?
Did anyone say that female genital mutilation is OK ?
That is my only quibble with your excellent observations. Of course, the problem, the underlying, overwhelming problem, is men as a class wanting as much control over women as they can exercise. The form that control takes has many faces, all of them ugly, and some absolutely horrific.
What I hear Ductape saying is that when we ignore the underlying cause of unjustice by pouncing on one
symptom of the problem, and a foreign symptom, too, we miss the big picture that you just described so well. I can tell that you have given this great thought. I’m sure you are as angry and disillusioned as I have been for years trying to clean up the mess
by dealing with the symptoms in ways that might actually help. I’d love to declare zero tolerance on domestic violence, for instance, but until women are able to support themselves and their children, until women don’t NEED men, but are free to want them, all we can do is try to mitigate the damage. That doesn’t mean that I think beating women is OK, and I don’t think Ductape thinks FGM is OK, either.
that FGM happens to be one very sensational method of subjugating women, and it occurs within the context of a near-universal rite of passage celebration that does not need to have any mutilation of anything done in order to preserve both culture and tradition.
And it is a part of the larger picture, while there are westerners who seem to take an almost gleeful smugness in declaring that anyone who does this is a barbarian and whatnot, with no apparent interest in the context, either of the local culture, or as another symptom of a disease with which they themselves are infected and have been unsuccessful in getting rid of, I am pleased to ee that here, at least, while there may be a rather spacious lack of knowledge regarding FGM itself, overall, I think people are thinking, and doing some introspection, and that is never a bad thing, and could lead to something good 🙂
of what is going on here, thanks to “Egarwaen”
…go back and slowly read the original free speech diary….see who brought up FGM first.
I too have not participated the past two days mostly due to lack of knowledge on the subject. There was a wonderful program however about a year ago on the subject of FGM. A woman of this culture that had it done to her is now a US citizen and doing all she can to get this practice stopped. She said that there is only one reson the custom is performed and that is to prevent a woman from straying. To prevent a woman from knowing sexual pleasure. If she doesn’t experience an orgasm the man can better control her and keep her down. I will never ever support that ‘custom” no matter how old it is. When a man is circumsized he does not lose the pleasure of sex. That cannot be said for FGM….period.
IF her daughter turns 18 and WANTS surgery that is a CHOICE to participate. If at 18 she decides to marry, she can then be cut, just as the ORGINAL woman who sought freedom in the US was an adult, about to be cut.
Then I would absolutely support her right to make what I think is a wrong choice.
MUTILATING THE DAUGHTER AS CHILD MEANS THE DAUGHTER HAS NO CHOICE.
If the daughter wants to use her body to preserve the cu lture she can do it when she is 18 and can legally choose. Otherwise what is happening is a crime, in moral and legal terms. Maybe the daughter will want to marry OUTSIDE her culture. Of course, this is the purpose of the mutilation — control.
Let’s rephrase that only put actual adult humans in the picture, maybe then we can have more sympathy for the powerless child rather than the free, autonomous adult who has managed to move to the west.
“This means that even if they move to the west, where different mutilation customs are practiced, they will not abandon the practice just because they have moved to London or Los Angeles. Even though their new western neighbors find it horrifying, these mothers are going to cut their daughters. If even one is persuaded to adopt a tweaked ritual, that is a great victory. Most of them will not.”
This is about the power of adults over children. Let’s put this story line in perspective.
“This means that even if they move to the west, where different wife beating and raping customs are practiced, they will not abandon the practice just because they have moved to London or Los Angeles. Even though their new western neighbors find it horrifying, these men are going to beat and rape their daughters and wives. If even one is persuaded to adopt a tweaked ritual of beating and raping then it is a win.”
In the west the mothers can choose to experience freedom. They have the freedom to choose to multilate their daughters or not. They moved to a new jurisdiction. It is true in the US child protective services often fail miserably. But you propose that the law refuse to help the most helpless because some other powerful person who is going to harm them has the defense of culture.
There are HUMAN RIGHTS. Humans have the right not to be killed or tortured. I agree completely that the US has failed at this. It is a shameful failure that is not made acceptable because it is part of our valuable, effective and utlitarian culture.
Humans have rights. Cultures do not have rights. Her daughter can marry who she wants. Cutting means her daughter is trapped in a culture, and has no rights.
Slavery was part of European and African and Asian culture for thousands of years. Longer than mutilation. I am sure the masters would have agreed with your assessment, but I doubt that would be the case with the chattle.
I feel compelled to note that the diarists arguments can be applied equally well to child sacrifice or ritual rape of children. I still can’t believe that there are people here who actually defend this practice, or argue that parents have a right to engage in it.
Fundamental human rights are fundamental human rights. These aren’t “western” rights or “American” rights, but fundamental human rights</strong. Any culture that does not recognize these rights needs to be changed. Not because I think that my culture is superior, but because these other cultures are <strong>harming people. Yes, our own culture has traits that harm people too. And guess what? I object to those too.
ritual rape of children.
You mean like by Catholic priests?
IMO, Ductape makes a logical leap.
His argument is built upon a decent logical structure.
If A is going to happen then A can happen as either a safe medical procedure (B) or a unsafe medical procedure (C).
Given A, anyone who opposed B, must support C.
The problem with that is that he overstates A.
A is not going to happen 100% of the time. In fact, by prohibiting the legal avenues for A, in other words C, it makes it less likely that A will occur.
So it is not a valid argument.
However, in spite of his argument being invalid, it is not without its point.
I would argue that he could have made the case that anyone seeking or known to be seeking female circumcision for their child, should have that child taken away from them.
He can argue that people would then fail to seek medical attention for the daughters if there are complications, or even in normal times once the procedure has been done. And that would be true too.
My biggest objection to his argument is that people that 100% legalized genital mutilation are showing contempt for the people, rather than contempt for the practice.
I can have contempt for the practice of certain rituals and even certain belief systems, like those of the Ku Klux Klan, and still not have total contempt for the people. I disagree with them, vehemently, about their rituals and beliefs. I am willing to outlaw some of them as barbarous. I lack a certain level of respect for them for holding these beliefs when they live in America and have every opportunity to be exposed to much better belief systems. Yes, better.
When it comes to someone coming here from Africa and carrying this custom that I find deplorable with them, I am not going to suddenly find it acceptable in their case. I will be more understanding of their custom than I am of cross-burning and white-hood wearing, but I will see it as no less hostile to the well-being of other innocent human beings.
As with a Klansman, if you want to dissuade this family from mutilating their daughter, you must talk to them. And to be persuasive you must understand them.
And let me get back to another point. Do I feel superior to a Klansman? Do I feel superior to a cavemen? The answer is yes and no.
The things I value are not attainable for a caveman. I value literature, and higher learning. I am glad that I live in a society with these things. I think my society is superior to the society of a caveman in these respects. Cavemen didn’t emit as many fossil fuels or radiation, so they have that going for them. The point is that I value progress, and believe our culture today is superior to the culture in which Chief Joseph or Martin Luther King, or Elizabeth Cady Stanton labored.
I think people that live in this culture and still harbor the race hatred of the KKK are inferior in some way. But it is not exactly contempt that I feel for them. That is but one of the feeling they arouse. Pity would be another.
So, when you are faced with a person from a different culture and different belief systems you do not automatically feel contempt for them. And even if they engage in a practice like female circumcision, you do not necessarily have contempt for the person. What you have is a belief system that has long ago decided this practice is wrong.
And if you refuse to provide her with safe mutilation then you are not necessarily showing comtempt for the daughter. You are letting other values intervene. You are letting your prejudice against foster care prevail, or you are submitting to the dictates of the State Department which discourages the kidnapping of recent immigrants children, or you are simply morally opposed to carrying out the procedure.
Things are a lot more complex than you have portrayed them in your invalid logical construction.
“And if you refuse to provide her with safe mutilation”
Even “safe mutilation” will ensure a life of pain for the adult woman. Please consider this, every month of that woman’s life during her menstruation she will suffer agony. Every time she has intercourse she will suffer. Her childbirths will be slow and torturous.
How can anyone possibly okay this procedure on the grounds of political correctness, on the grounds of cultural tolerance, on any grounds whatsoever.
Excuse, I am really feeling sick here.
I don’t know what the differences are between what a doctor might do and what is done by the mother.
I assumed part of the point of going to a doctor was to limit some of the long-term problems. But, if not, then I take your point.
I’m no expert in this field.
My point is that it is not wrong to look at other’s cultural practices and condemn some of them. It is possible to condemn aspects of a persons beliefs and customes without holding the full person in nothing but contempt
of course not the whole person.
I have seen documentaries on FGM where aide workers, both Western and indigenous spoke gently to the grandmothers about the practice. There was no condemnation, otherwise the persuasion against the practice would go nowhere. It was mostly the grandmothers who were insisting on continuing. Their attitude was more like, “it has always been done, and it was done to me, so…” The child-bearing generation of women were suffering from its terrible effects and were easy to persuade.
I don’t like your use of the euphimism “female circumcision” booman, it makes it sound like they just neatly cut off the hood of the clitoris, similar to a male circumcision. It is called female genital mutilation for a reason.
For anyone who’s wondering about the details, here’s the Amnesty Int’l backgrounder on FGM
Sigh.
So I’m sitting here preparing class materials for a group of kids I’m teaching these “primitive” rhythms developed centuries (millennia?) ago by some unsophisticated cavemen (actually, it would be the cave women who developed them) down in Africa.
The rhythms are so mindbogglingly complex by western musical standards that even highly trained classical percussionists have difficulties mastering them–especially if you don’t provide them with some written form of notes so that they can be abstracted and recorded in a form that these “sophisticated” musicians can understand.
In the source culture, children grow up learning these rhythms by osmosis–to them, a song like, say “takosaba” is as easy as “twinkle twinkle little star”–and they don’t NEED any written abstract reminders. 6 yr olds in the source culture could put the likes of an Evelyn Glennie to shame with their knowledge and understanding of these complex musical structures (actually, at this point, I know quite a few six-yr olds in the “hood” who could do the same. heheh.)
So I’m putting together these notes for some kids who are advanced percussionists in an awesome music program out in the burbs. It’s exciting to have a group of kids with a firm grasp on basic principles of percussion that I can draw on to help them understand the complexity of this music developed by the cavewomen in Africa.
So, here I am availing myself of the wonders of modern technology and progress in an effort to teach some of the the complexities of what the cavepeople have developed …I am preparing these notes (paper jam. Argh)….and thinking to myself (out of paper. Argh)…sure would be a hell of a lot easier for the teacher (print cartridge out of black ink)…if these kids didn’t need these primitive fucking abstractions to understand what the children of the cavepeople learn just by doing and being and listening and dancing and singing and being carried on their dancing mothers’ backs….
But in the end, I think it’s so much worth it, because I know that when I’m done with this residency, there will be 15 western white suburban kids who will question the notions of progress, of cultural sophistication and superiority, and maybe, just maybe, somewhere down the line, the thought might cross their minds that progress isn’t always what it seems and that those cavepeople….sheesh. They might have been a little more sophisticated than their “advanced” “civilized” culture taught them. There will be 15 white suburban kids who have proof of that–on the page–because what I will have done in providing them these notes will be to have demonstrated that those cavepeople were way the hell ahead of us (at least on this score). I will have translated what these cavepeople knew into the abstract terms that the sophisticated cultures of the west developed centuries later…
Thank god I don’t have to scratch those notes into the wall of a cave. Thank god for HP printers. Really.
And manoman, would I just love to get you in one of my classes because every time you start talking about “progress” and “western culture”, I just think to myself….that guy’s gotta ‘get out’ more. And by that I mean out of this culture. 😉
I’m insulted that you have just suggested that I equate cavemen with Africans.
I used cavemen to indicate a pre-agricultural society. A society with only rudimentary use of tools.
It meant no more to equate cavemen to Africans than I did to equate the KKK to Africans.
This kind of cheap rhetorical trick is obnoxious.
It indicates a kind of hypersensitivity.
The point being made was made from several standpoints. One of them was to affirm my belief in the superiority of present day American culture of the days of Jim Crow, the days of Native American genocide, and the days before women’s suffrage. Another was to say that the KKK’s rituals and belief systems are wrong. Not just different, but wrong. Another was to say that a caveman’s society, if you can even call it that, lacked the things I value, and that I do believe in progress. Yet, I acknowledged they are other ways to look at a culture, like whether it is sustainable.
I think a culture that provides for universal health care is better than one that cannot or does not. Those are my values, and you can’t turn them into racism with rhetoric.
To the best of my knowledge (and I may in fact be wrong on this because the actual time of origin for these rhythms is hard to pin down), these rhythms were indeed first developed by “pre-agricultural” society–originally not “played” on “instruments” but vocalized or performed as “body percussion.”
Sorry to have been so flip, but I just get the feeling that you really don’t know enough about “primitive” cultures to understand how sophisticated (and SUSTAINABLE) many of them were (to some extent still are).
Recently saw a discovery channel or something show about Stonehenge, and there were some “preshistoric instrument” specialists (from England) demonstrating some of the (huh) “rudimentary” tools used by “prehistoric” “man”–pretty sophisticated shit. Sorry I don’t have time to track down the links for you at the moment.
And no, I’m not advocating a return to some mythical prehistoric “golden age”–what I am saying is that I’m pretty sure those human beings were a little more “advanced” and “sophisticated” than many of us can even imagine.
As I said: I’m rather beholden to my HP printer (and dryerase boards!), but I do have problems with these teleological notions of “progress” and I just keep wondering about the way that some of these ancient cultures managed to sustain themselves in relative peace and harmony for thousands (indeed, tens of thousands) of years without managing to wreak as much havoc, destruction and despair on the planet as more “civilized” cultures have managed to do in just 500 yrs .
They must have been doing something right and I don’t think they were sitting around in their caves grunting, twiddling their thumbs, and dragging women around by their hair either.
If you want to make a sustainability argument then make it.
You can argue, with plausibility, that a culture with no NASA, no coal plants, no CAT scans, no pharmaceuticals, no computers, no Bill of Rights, is superior to one that has those things because they will be able to continue their life style as it is indefinitely.
I don’t know the ultimate answer to that. Time will tell. But, as long as I live in a technological society I will seek to improve that society, as people who believe in progress have doing since Francis Bacon. If nothing else, it gets results.
We keep butting heads on this Boo, and somehow you keep reducing my argument to one that would oppose all technological develoment (no NASA, no computers, etc.), insinuating that I advocate a return to the stone age or that I am opposed to technological development of any and all kinds.
That’s not my argument. My beef is with the notion of progress that would set no limits–the sky’s the limit.
It is this same notion of “the sky/universe/galaxy’s the limit” that allows Exxon CEO’s to make 153 million annual while others starve, and still somehow be able to sleep at night. Is this same notion of limitlessness that allowed the European unsettlers to keep moving their “frontier” ever further westward and to continue taking land from the Indians in the “vast uninhabited wilderness” to create living space for their master race. Ever more, ever more, so quoth the ravagers.
I am not opposed to “progress”–I am opposed to progress at any cost, in a teleological linear framework that knows no limits and is so fixated on what’s up ahead, what’s up above, what’s bigger, what’s bolder, more brazen, the final frontier (whereby there is for that framework never a “final” frontier).
Sometimes the way to “improve” society is not to look forward to the unknown future but to look backward to the known, past. One example of this are the tribes of the southwest who have long suffered in disproportionate measure from diabetes (ever since ‘progress’ came and ‘improved’ their diet). All the western medicine in the world could not help them. But then they decided to go back to the desert and to adjust their diet back to what their ancestors had eaten. What they found was that the natural foodstuffs of the desert actually offered more relief from their diabetes than anything western medicine had to offer.
Another example from Africa: Up until about the mid-50s, drummers from the Malinke tradition continued to lace their drums using hand-twirled sinew from cow skin. In the mid-50s, an African American went down there and figured out a way to use steel rebar instead of sinew. It was truly a great improvement for the drums. So everyone started using steel rebar instead of sinew, and for ALL of the drums in the Malinke orchestra–for the djembes, for the doundounbas, the sangans and the kenkenis.
But, by the mid-90s, one very astute old master of the tradition realized: the steel rebar is good for all of the drums *except
the doundounba. You cannot get the proper tone from a doundounba using steel rebar. Damn good thing he figured that out before everyone forgot how to do the old traditional lacing, that’s all I can say.
I’ve spent the past decade “undoing” that little bit of progress and overhauling my entire doundounba “fleet” (at tremendous expense and effort)–having those few people left in the world who still have knowledge of this old “primitive” prehistoric practice of lacing the drums (not with sinew, but with high-grade synthetic nautical rope, but still according to the old method that was used with the sinew). We have now arrived at a the ideal two-steps-forward-one-step back ideal level of “progress” on these drums.
Meanwhile, western manufacturers of these drums who do not understand the old technology are manufacturing drums with all kinds of fancy, high-falutin’ contraptions to make them “easier” to tune. I laugh at this: loudly. So you need to waste all these resources constructing these gadgets and geekaws that don’t work, and which are actually so much more complicated to work with, just because you were too fucking stupid (or culturally arrogant) to figure out how the old system in its complex simplicity worked.
Trivial example, I know, but do you get the point? If not, Nader’s former running mate, Winona LaDuke, in her newest book, Recovering the Sacred, talks about some of these things, etc.; another interesting take is offered by Dr. Vine DeLoria, Jr. in his book Red Earth White Lies: Native Americans and The MYTH of Scientific Fact–these authors are in a much better position to make these things clear than I am; sure wish you’d take the time to seek them out.
As far as the Bill of Rights is concerned, I would argue that a social fabric which respects the notion of self-set limits for individuals in the interest of sustaining the (planetary) collective does not NEED a bill of rights because the people themselves would have enough respect for other people’s boundaries that they wouldn’t infringe on other people’s rights.
And with that, we’ve come full circle to a quote I posted yesterday by the French Canadian author Louky Bersianik, who envisions this scenario in a future world
and Egarwaen and all the others for your unequivocal stand against the child abuse of FGM.
where I suggested beating and raping?
I was unable to locate it, perhaps you will be kind enough to help me?
Every mother raising a daughter anywhere in the world faces these choices. The choices we’re accustomed to may be invisible while those taken by unfamiliar cultures stand our in stark relief.
Woman are commodified everywhere, and the greater the power differential between men and women, the more mothers need to transform their daughters into saleable products.
Imagine a world in which women didn’t need men, but could lead safe, productive, free, respected, happy lives, providing for themselves and their children alone.
Imagine being with a man only because you like him, never because you need or fear him. That sounds like a better deal for men, too. What a relief it would be to know that a women isn’t just pretending to like you because she has to.
Would any of us be teaching our daughters, directly or through modeling, to shave their legs, straighten and whiten their teeth, put on make-up, speak softly, be a good listener who’s not be too opinionated, too smart, too pushy or too cocky ? Would we starve ourselves, break the budget buying the “right” clothes and waste countless hours on hair and nails ? Would we aquiesce to sex we don’t want, when we don’t want it, with men who arouse no passion in us ?
We do all these things not because we are weak or vain or frivolous, but because being the prettiest, most pleasing product possible is how to survive and even succeed in a world that values women for their ability to please men.
The price a woman must pay to get by in the world depends on her culture. If marriage is the only course open to her, and men will only marry mutilated women, then her mother is going to insure her future
with FGM because she loves her child and wants what’s best for her. In other cultures we put braces on her teeth, send her to the gym, the nail salon, the beauty shop and the dermatologist, put her on a diet, fix her nose, buy her implants, and dress her up. Same game, different venue.
Ductape, don’t go. Please. You gave me hope when I limped here, wounded in the pie wars. You and the insightful, good men of the Pond redeemed your sex for me when I was at the lowest point in thirty years; I had witnessed such vicious misogyny, such clueless chauvinism from men who self indentified as Democrats, that had I not found you and the other fine men here, I might have died of despair.
for your wisdom:
Yes, that is the goal of changing the FMG custom, and that is the message of the diary 🙂
It seems the crux of the matter is why one opposes something like this. If one opposes it because of a preconceived notion about the culture/religion/society practicing it (“backwards,” “uncivilized,” “sexist” etc.) then that is a matter of assuming cultural superiority. And that is an offense to human dignity.
But if one opposes a practice regardless of the culture/religion/society in which it takes place, then it’s not about cultural superiority. It’s about taking a personal stance in accordance with one’s personal sense of right and wrong. And that is a tenet of human dignity.
Also, using the critique of “cultural superiority” as grounds for dismissing of Westerners condemning controversial practices in developing countries is but one way to see the issue.
The opposite critique is called the “noble savage” theory and in this case the Westerners who accept inhumane or controversial practices in developing countries are dismissed for treating these cultures as “exceptional” or “unable to know better” and romanticising the “savagery” of it all.
So the “cultural superiority” argument is not a trump card here. It is an academic, sociological method of judging our collective behavoir. And I am of the opinion that if we are going to rely on such a means of judgement, we should at least judge those who actually harm others, not waste our time judging those who refuse to do that harm.
I could probably argue this until I am blue in the face and not get much agreement, but there is nothing wrong with feeling culturally superior.
It is all the baggage of the past that stigmatizes that view, because people used their feelings of cultural superiority to dismiss other people’s full humanity, or justify forced conversions, or ethnic cleansing, or genocide, or enslavement, or economic exploitation.
And if you come at it from that standpoint, there is something seriously wrong with your culture that you are perhaps not taking into full enough account. You are also using a belief in the strength of your own values and beliefs to justify the mistreatment of others. And you are failing to learn the things about the other culture that are perhaps a better way of doing things than your culture does them.
But, to say that a society that outlaws slavery, and race and gender discrimination, and allows for freedom of speech and religion is superior to one that does not, is only to stand up for and assert your principles.
No one would argue with me if I said American culture of today is more fair, more equitable, and better than America’s culture in 1950 or 1850.
If you don’t believe that then why would you consider yourself a progressive?
But that doesn’t mean that if you went back in a time machine to 1850 that you should decide those Americans were worthy of nothing but contempt, or that they should be killed.
finds its own level. There is no correlation between evolved civilzed communities and compassion. In fact, Margaret Mead found primitive communities where babies were never allowed to cry. They were constantly comforted unlike our society, where at the time, the prevailing custom was to let babies cry between the hours of a strict feeding schedule. It begs the question of who was culturally superior or more evolved in this case.
My argument is for compassion.
I totally agree with your example, but that is not traditionally what is meant by the term “cultural superiority.”
It is a term historically used in the context of Western/wealthy/white culture v.s. everything else.
And it is criticised because it has been the case that people feel themselves superior simply because of the class/race/country they were born into, not because of their accomplishments in the realm of social justice. And of course, because this sense of superiority has been used too often as a valid reason to commit attrocities against others in the name of trying to bring them up to date with our own superior culture. That’s what people take issue with.
Only reactionaries are actually offended by your having pride in your culture’s accomplishments. But that’s cultural pride or moral superiority (sure, I feel moral superiority over slave traders! You bet!), not Cultural superiority. “Cultural superiority” means believing your culture – your traditions, customs, race, religion, etc. the whole package – is better than anyone else’s in the whole world and that everyone else should therefore conform to your culture’s standards.
And like I said in my original post, it’s all theory anyway. A catch-all phrase to keep historians and sociologists from having to exlain the same detailed complaint over and over again.
I think we basically agree.
for your explanation of ‘cultural superiority’ as commonly understood. My traditions and customs are mostly borrowed. My religion is compassion.
I’m thinking that this FGM is a human rights violation as described in the universal UN document. Am I being too universal here?
singlularly unaffected by that document. This is not a custom that will be changed by any document, even if those who practice it were aware of it, could read it, and gave a Cheneyfart what it said, any more than you would if someone told you of a document that said you were violating your daughter’s rights by not doing it.
I happen to agree with you about it being a human rights violation.
In some cultures it is ok to kill a woman if she is raped. I don’t personally give a damn what their culture says about it. Under NO circumstances can I imagine that this is ok. Just because some other culture embraces it doesn’t make me obligated to respect those who do it. That’s insane. I grew up in a racist culture. Did I say, “Well, they are going to make fun of the black kids anyway, so I may as well stay out of it. It’s just the way things are done around here & I have to respect it.”? No fucking way. Because I know enough to know if I were one of those kids I would never want to be made fun of for the color of my skin, and and if I were a young woman, I would never want someone, even my own grandmother to CUT OFF MY CLITORIS AND SEW ME SHUT.
It’s called empathy and for me it trumps “respecting” the perpetrators.
Empathy. It is empathy that is the way to changing the custom.
You have moved beyond “it is wrong” and leapt to put yourself in the place of a reluctant girl.
Now you will see, soon you will begin to see yourself in the place of a girl who accepts the custom, then of her mother, and off you gallop!
What the fuck makes you assume I have not ALWAYS had empathy for them? How arrogant of you.
And why are you being so goddamned condescending to everyone who does not agree with you?
Oooh, you are soooo concerned about those helpless “reluctant” (people are “reluctant” to buy a used car, not to get their genetalia mutilated) “little girls” but you sure go very far out of your way to label anyone who opposes FGM as suffering some cultural superiority complex. You might not be questioning MY sincerity, but I’ll avoid parsing words and come right out and say that I question yours.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I’m not engendering healthy debate here. Appologies all around.
I better go (no, not from Booman but from this insidious diary) before I really say what I’m thinking and get myself in a heap of trouble.
Freedom of speech, genital mutilation. What basic fundamental human right are we going to be rethinking tomorrow? I don’t want to know…
I mistakenly thought you, like me, would like to see the custom change to one that omitted the cutting of the girls.
I am very sorry for any false accusations in that regard.
“My tribe good, your tribe bad”
That would be the Cliffs Notes version. For those who’d rather just read the Cliff’s Notes than actually stop and think about it.
is related to whether one’s opposition to it is likely to be useful in changing it, and therefore, from the point of view of the little girls and their mothers, relevant at all.
I don’t understand your comment. Clarify.
than I could, but I will try.
If one’s opposition is merely based on one’s own cultural and moral values, that “it is wrong,” or “our tribe’s way is better,” while I would certainly urge such people to give financial contributions to indigenous campaigns that work to educate and encourage tweaked customs, I would not recommend that they consider extending their involvement beyond that.
If the opposition, however, is based on a sincere desire that one day all women would live in the world described by susanw:
and who are furthermore, not only willing, but actively desirous of stepping beyond their own “wrong” and listening with respect and love to the “wrong” of the mother of the little girl, with the aim of undertanding her heart, her “wrong” and her “right,” then that woman is truly blessed, and would have the capacity for actually being a part of the change.
I fail to see how these things are mutually exclusive or why you are more qualified then I to decide what level of involvement I should have or the sincerity of my oppostion to the practice.
qualify yourself. Contrary to popular rumor, I cannot see into hearts. I cannot know if you have the capacity, the will, or the desire to look into your sister’s eyes and see through them, to listen to her with your mind and heart open, to put aside your own right and wrong in order to understand hers.
I am fairly certain however that if I, or anybody else were to simply tell you that you should perform FMG on your own daughter because they believe it is wrong that you do not, that their chances of success would be slight.
This practice in Africa is continued by the grandmothers from what I have learned. They insist on it and they do the mutilations.
I can assure you that they are in most places.
This is not a thing that will take place overnight. So that is one reason I say the mothers, because those mothers will not only have a say in what happens to their daughter today, but will have a say in how they choose to change the ritual when it is their turn to officiate. 🙂
I do not have a tribe, I was an orphan, so fuck off.
it is the grandmother, in others, it may be the chief’s wife, in yet others, the senior member of a clan who has traditionally done it, etc.
You are, however, essentially correct that it is generally an older lady, which the young mothers of today will one day be, God willing. 🙂
then what is to stop them from selling FGM to Westerners as well?
I’m not joking. Alice Walker’s Possessing the Secret of Joy quite emphatically makes this point. Clitoridectomy was once sold as a cure for masturbation in little girls. Right here in the U.S. FGM isn’t something that the West discovered only since the term “globalization” was coined.
I look at the rise of the religious right, and the continued popularity of cosmetic surgery to make women more beautiful (despite whatever damage it does to their bodies), and I think it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that FGM might again find favor among some segments of the West.
I believe you. Also, gynecological surgical instruments are sold in certain sex shops in “the West.”
<SHUDDER>
Can I be in the middle….saying that this practice is inhumane, and saying that in my own culture there are also practices that are inhumane. But realizing that the way to stop this particular practice is through education, because trying to come at it from the perspective of anger will not work and the people that “believe in it” will just defend it more. I would like to see change, not damnation. Again, I recomend reading Possessing the Secret of Joy by Alice Walker. It is a difficult practice to stop. If it were easy, we would not be having this conversation.
I think that you have given this some thought, and would like to see the practice of cutting ended, as would I.
And you have expressed much better than I did, and in much fewer words, how it can be done, the only way it can be done.
This is such a charged issue it’s hard for me to view it clearly. I do know that I view the world through the lens of my culture, time and upbringing. Sometimes I can peer around the edges of this lens and sometimes I cannot. Isn’t physically mutilating a child wrong, regardless of the philosophy or religion or mythos behind it? It feels so to me. As far as cleaning up our own mess, yes, I agree. But then are we to each focus only on our own small circle and refuse to look beyond? This discussion has given me much to think about, which is an uncomfortable blessing? Good thing to be uncomfortable now and then, keeps the mind growing I think. ONe of the reasons I hope DF stays, he is a master of sticking a pea under the mattresses of complacence. I think that our own, western, practices of intersex genital mutilation is just as bad if that helps and it’s a topic that could stand some daylight shed on it too. I think the idea that to speak out against cruelty in another culture means you are blind to the cruelty in your own is untrue.
and in fact, wrong not to, we must have something to offer beyond “It is wrong” in order to change it.
In order to obtain that something beyond, we must be able to go beyond our own ‘wrong” and learn to understand her “wrong.” 🙂
So what the fuck? On a so-called liberal blog we have to explain why FGM is bad?. i mean, isnt this just the same old tactic of making women defend our positions on every issue that affects us? Frankly, i’m sick of it.
FGM is a social custom, not a religious practice, and according to my cite above the purpose is to minimize sexual desire in women in order to protect their virginity and honor. And that is somehow good? Fuck that. Fundamentalism of any kind leaves a bad taste in my mouth, whether religious or cultural, christian or muslim, you name it.
I want to hear the voices of those who have lived these experiences, their opinions are validated by their lives. I want to hear what the women say. Some man’s opinion on FGM means very little to me.
suggested future topics:
any other topic suggestions anyone?
And also, who the fuck cares if there’s a cultural superiority complex at work? We’re talking about opposition to a practice that’s objectively harmful. And yet somehow the diarist thinks that the objection is worse than the practice? WTF?
And damn straight the diarist is defending FGM, no matter how much they claim otherwise. I can’t see any other reason to attack those opposed to the practice.
And yes, you’re damn right that this is a judgment. I’m human, we judge things. Someone else may judge things differently, that’s their right. I can think they’re wrong, crazy, or deluded. That’s my right. I hope that when we eventually understand each other, we’ll both see that I’m right after all. That is, again, my right. If I’m wrong, I have to own up to my judgment. Again, my responsibility.
click here
From the Amnesty International link provided by CabinGirl. Descriptions of the actual practice are beyond belief.
yes I read that. So helpful to their “little kinswoman”.
I do believe that Ductape should dispense with his use of “:)”. It surely indicates pandering and paternalism, both of which he has engaged in at this site.
finis
about solutions if you would be generous enough to share them!
fall from your crafted visage has been enough.
Your invitations are barbed and I will decline.
I have been very blatantly trying to get people to discuss solutions, especially those who are angry, but there are few takers. I thought you might be an exception. 🙂
are very disappointing personal attacks, with exactly no substance offered.
It distresses me, as you are someone whos opinions and writing I have held in high regard from first seeing them at Dailykos.
whatever your personal vendetta against Ductape, I wish you’d refrain.
I don’t think anyone has ever had a personal vendetta against me before, well, not since that Sykes-Picot thing, but I don’t think she’s old enough to remember that. Anyway, I wish someone would have told me there would be a vendetta. I do have nicer clothes than this, I would have worn them.
And myriad, thank you again, but as I told you last night, I really do not keep up with the game points, and if they wish to assign a poor score to something I say in hopes of receiving an emotional benefit, it is my pleasure, as always, to be of service. 🙂
Especially if there’s a vendetta.
dunno if she does or not DF, but I think with all due respect the issue of the use of ratings on a blog like this goes to a matter of principle, not your personal willingness to get downrated because you know you stir up difficult subjects.
Perhaps vendetta is too strong, but I hope Marisacat will explain or refrain, as the comment above indicates thoughts that run a lot deeper than just this thread.
of principle to you, I will say no more on the subject. Nor would it be gentlemanly of me to comment on the depth of thought evidenced by another poster.
;->
How is that emoticon? I don’t think I invented it, though.
and enabled in his words.
I have read DF for at least two years and possibly as long as three. He has resorted to a couched and hidden voice at BMT, on many occasions. It is subtle but it is there.
He seems to have agreed to wedge himself into a box of some sort… Not my business but I do observe.
This is the more straight forward DF that I used to read (and agree with). He used not to pander. He used not to enable paternalism and in fact act paternal. He was a peer.
The thread is interesting as is the alternet article DF links to and quotes from.
And btw, I am singularly unmoved by your silly attempt at reproving me. It is meaningless.
I am leaving the thread. It is in the final phase.
but as a peer and long-time participant in on-line spaces like this, you should no better, and I don’t really care what names you call me for suggesting that to you.
I see very little difference to the quote you give and how DF has expressed himself in this thread, other than I have noticed that depending on the topic, the more difficult it is for him personally, the more difficult it seems to be for him to communicate in a style I find to be easier to follow.
I don’t see perceptions of a person’s communication style, barring them having resorted to invective, as a suitable basis for chucking around 1s, like you have been -and without even the respect of contributing to the thread yourself, except to cast personal aspersions and hint darkly at the diarist.
< know> not <no>
It is not often a man of my age is hinted darkly at AND learns he is the object of a vendetta in a single night. And on a single website.
Unfortunately, Madame Fatwa says that I must conclude any planned invective-hurling very soon and test my blood sugar and eat dal.
and I didn’t even know about the vendetta. I would have dressed up. Honest.
that you might just be as bad as each other.
emoticons- it’s a cute one, and looks rather impish, which fits you I think.
But my more serious point was this: I smile a lot in real life, but less so on blogs, because especially when I’m engaged in a serious discussion or a disagreement with someone, it is too easily interpreted as insincerity. I think that’s happened to you a fair bit on this thread – your smiles being interpreted to undermine the sincerity of your posts.
So sometimes, and this is only my opinion, I think it’s better to refrain from emoticons, and work harder on the actual text.
I don’t want to say anymore, as I already feel I’ve said too much on it.
I’m also off the computer for a bit. Enjoy the dal. yum.
I’m more of a “cause and effect” sort of person than I am a “belief-based”, or tradition-based” or dogma-based sort when it comes to understanding the reasons why and values of activities and practises and rituals that have come into being within societies and cultures.
As to Female Genital Mutilation, I don’t know much about it as to origin, and my only direct experience concerning it has to do with a girlfriend I had for about a year in the 1980’s here in the US who had been born in Baghdad and whose family, after her having undergone this mutilation in Iraq, had moved here to the US.
So, if it’s possible to talk about this for a moment outside the sphere of ideology or belief systems or cultural sensitivities, I’d like to learn what, if any, function this ritualized practise has beyond ideology, beyond tradition or belief or doctrine or systemic orthodoxy? Or perhaps more simply put, does this procedure have a function in the physical world, (male circimcision, I seem to remember, was reputed to have some beneficial effect on the prevention of infection in the genital area, or so the story went, and this gave it some legitimacy as far as contributing to real world benefit.) So, does FGM have any such corrolary function? Or does it exist only to serve a belief/tradition/cultural orthodoxy/dogma?
she is a lady, and does have extensive knowledge of both custom and cultures who practice it, and hopefully she will come along and clean up after me, but to the best of my knowledge, the actual cutting has no practical purpose whatsoever beyond, depending on what variation is employed, making it unlikely to impossible that the girl will be able to enjoy intimacy with her husband, and in the case of infibulation, serving as proof of virginity, and several have referenced Alice Walker’s book, the Secret of Joy, where, please forgive the indelicacy, the aspect of increasing enjoyment of intimacy for males who have been culturally conditioned to enjoy such.
Whew!
stark? help?
I will wait to see if anyone else shares more definitive knowledge about this, but for the sake of further exploring why I asked this, if what you say is accurate, (i.e. no practical purpose), what is the intrinsic value in facilitating or maintaining this ritualistic mutilation.
Maybe I’m out of tune with many here, but for all the talk about tradition and cultural respect and such, I have a feeling that if humankind was to dispense with much of our old habits and traditions, I suspect the more of these old ways we jettisoned, the more quickly and surely we’d advance along the path toward enlightenment as a species and as a planetary civilization.
and I know you want only practical reasons, and I am sorry, but it is impossible.
The cultural reason has to do with transition from child to adult.
So the point, or at least my point 😉 is that with this and other customs that do harm, work toward preerving the culture, the tradition, and its significance, but without the harm. There are many many ways to celebrate the transition of a girl child to adult womanhood that do not involve any mutilation of her genitals, but also preserve her cultural traditions.
You can ignore me or criticize me, but I think the cultural tradition behind this practice is pretty clearly the same one that’s behind lots of other’s we have talked about that sprang at different times from the misogyny of the culture – its to conrol women, particularly their sexuality. Sure it can be held within wonderful rituals about transition for girlhood to womanhood – but the message is clear “As a woman – your first lesson is that men are in control – especially of your sexuality.” Now, my suggestion would be that we move on to another diary about why men fear women’s sexuality in so many of our cultures – particulaly (but not exclusively) the ones based on Abrahamic religions.
more traditional than the traditional culture, and go back to the true meaning of having any ceremony at all – the transition from child to adult, which does not need to have anyone cutting on anything, because long before there was all this mysogyny, children became adults, and this was celebrated. 🙂
You seem to be assuming that there’s a “cultural reason” for this ritual mutilation and that it “has to do” with transition from child to adult. This strikes me as terribly oblique, to say the least , and certainly vauge to the point of meaninglessness in any case.
Here’s what I see, based on admittedly sparse knowledge as to the origins of or paractical utility of this practise. It looks to me as though this ritual developed pretty much as a control mechanism for use by men over women, and that these men have perhaps retroactively claimed the practise as deriving from some sort of “rite of passage” ceremony in order to mask their own basic desire for being more easily able to control and dominate their wives.
This is certainly what my Baghdad girlfriend Aida came to understand about it, and I think Alohaleezy referred to this same sort of dynamic upthread also.
People everywhere have always marked the transition from child to adult. Anthropologists will confirm that this is a thing that goes back as far as they can find.
Mysogyny is old, but this particular rite of passage is older. Somewhere along the line, throughout parts of the world, FGM was incorporated into this rite of passage.
It does not need to be there. Every culture on earth has an ample supply of traditions and assorted hoopla so that every girl should be able to have a child to adult celebration that preserves her particular cultural heritage without harming her in any way.
So, if FGM is not intrinsic to this grand “child to adult” transformation observance, but is actually an add on, (and frankly, quite likely an add on for the specific purposes of control outlined above), what is it about this practise then that makes it worthy of respectful consideration in a cultural context. If anything, someone honest and knowledgable about said traditional and cultural heritage would quickly identify this ritual mutilation as a violation of true tradition, an aberration born of self-interest and desire.
And if this is so, it’s very hard to see how a legitimate case can be made for supporting the facilitation of such a practise based on the idea of being respectful of cultural tradition.
and if, as you say “it, (FGM), doesn’t need to be there”, well then, the argument that approving the perpetration of this ritual in hospital on the grounds that it’s going to happen to the victims anyway so it may as well be done in a sterile environment to lessen the damage, well that argument seems a bit more hollow if one acknowledges that the practise of FGM is an interloper as far as real cultural heritage goes. We might as well say, well slavery is a bad thing too, but we’ll make sure to help slaves get into “good” plantations in the meantime. I realize there’s a definitely difficult question involved here. Is it better to have 100 young women mutilated in this fashion but with 10 of them getting it in a clean hospital environment, or is it better to have maybe only 99 young women be so brutalized, but because we do not allow hospitals to perpetrate the abuse, one is saved? I would say, tell the people that this sort of practise is child abuse in this country and that if they want to practise it they’ll be arrested. I think that might go a long ways towards minimizing the practise.
but to preserve the rite of passage ritual, without FGM.
Because it is such a prevalent and ingrained custom, I am saying that changing the custom, so that the ritual will not include FGM, will not happen overnight, and the process of changing it will require more than one strategy, education, indigenous campaigns to alter the ceremony, damage control, and education not just for the people who practice FGM, but for the people who do not. That could be the single greatest factor in changing the custom.
Yes! I understand that. But what is the ritual to be preserved? why are we , (you, I should say), making an argument for respecting and preserving a ritual connected to a “rite of passage” celebration where that ritual is, first, nowhere in evidence, and two, seemingly has no substantive connection to the perpetration of FGM.
To me it’s like saying that slavery is wrong but it’s somehow connected to an ancient celebration of some primal aspect of life, so lets encourage the respect and observance of that (unidentifiable) primal observance, while working to keep slaves being sold into all but the good families?
What is the primal root we’re supposed to be respecting and if we can’t identify it, why is it important to employ this technique of graduated facilitation that actively participates in a custom we in ouir own society regard as heinous abuse?
I just don’t get your argument. Do you send the signal to bank robbers that we’ll help them rob banks as long as they promise to not hurt more than one person and expect this is going to reduce the instances of bank robbery? I don’t think so.
Or let me try it this way. Let’s say a family moves here to the US from a country where this FGM is a routine practise. Lets say this family is comprised of a father, mother, and 3 daughters of varying ages. Let’s say the time comes when the parents want to mutilate the eldest daughter according to their custom, but they’re told it’s against the law. They vow to do it secretly anyway, but then they find out that a law does exist that aloows them tohave this done to their daughter in a nice clean hospital, because even though we view this procedure when done at home because we regard it as abuse, we allow itto be done in hospital because at least there it mitigates the possibility of infection and toa degree the pain that results. So the happy parents take the government up on it’s offer and have the procedure done. Then, when daughter #2 and daughter #3 are due for the same mutilation, what do we think these parents are going to do? (My guess is they’ll have the same mutilation done again).
Now let’s say the same people try, and maybe succeed, to mutilate their first daughter at home in secret. and let’;s say they’re discovered and arrested and convicted and sent to jail for child abuse? Daughters all become ensnared in the very nasty wards of the state scenario, an ugly trip for anyone. But probably daughters #2 and #3, are spared the mutilation.
Which of these two scenarios is better? A difficult question, depending on many different circumstances. I tend to favor the approach that says, *this is against the law in this country and no exceptions will be made based on cultural considerations. If you aggress againsta minor in this way you wil be prosecuted for it as a child abuser. If these were my daughters adopted into a family that practised this mutilation, I most certainly would want it stopped under any circumstances.
My phrasing and syntax is a little off above but I imagine you’llmake sense of it.
Meanwhile some medication is kicking in and it’s time for sleep. I hope I don’t dream about this ghastly stuff.
A few weeks ago, I had a wonderful dream about puppies with pale blue fur. Please borrow that.
Enjoy your medication, I am about to have some too!
Right now, in some places, it contains FGM. I am saying, keep the rite of passage ritual, remove the FGM from it.
Now, your other question, I sort of asked in the ignored solutions comment. Yes you can arrest the parents, warehouse the daughters, and ensure that the rest of that community ceases all contact with the mainstream society, thus ensuring that many more daughters get the at-home treatment, from which about 20% will die and 40-50% will have lifelong medical problems.
Or, you can give the doctor a shot at talking them out of it completely, which, as a person from their same culture, and a respected figure to boot, he has a much better chance than you of doing, and if that fails, he can do the symbolic “incision” with anesthesia, antibiotic, etc, and which has the added advantage of not ruining the girl’s enjoyment of intimacy, or her health, as it disappears in a few months, unlike the at home job, where the symbolic incision is not going to even be an option, even if the older lady had the skill to do it, which she doesn’t.
Which does the least harm?
what was your motive for posting this sensationalist diary?
That’s a rhetorical question.
My hunch is that is was to goad people into reponses that might reveal intolerance. I think it failed.
and I had hoped that more people would be interested in discussing solutions.
I wondered a couple of times, if that might not have failed, because the people who I thought would be most interested in solutions, you, for one, didn’t seem to have an interest in that aspect.
But I believe you will think about it, which matters more than what you post here.
I appreciate the compliment, but you flatter me too much. I do not have the power to “goad” anyone into revealing intolerance, nor the power to enable them to hide it.
I understand the trajectory of your logic, but I do not share the (what to me seem to be) selective assumptions you make. You say;
Yet this assertion seems to completely deny, arbitrarily, the possibility that informing people this mutilation is ilegal and that if they perform it they’ll be arested and go to jail has no deterrent effect at all.
On a more basic psychological level, the idea that a person willing to perform this mutilation is somehow an effective spokesperson for helping people stop choosing to do this to their daughters seems to fly in the face of basic logic.
If your arguement is that it’s better to allow these violations of another person’s body on parental authority to be performed in a hospital than it is to make such asault against the law and prosecute those who violate it, then I disagree with your priority, even while recogizing that tragedy exists in either approach.
that I think you mean. It does not deter people from practicing their culture, whether we are talking about FGM or animal sacrifices, or taking peyote or making a fire in the yard inside city limits, or a thousand other things. It does encourage communities to close more tightly, to, quite rightly, distrust the mainstream society and devote a large part of their time and energy as a community in reducing the need to engage in any contact with outsiders at all.
Now while I don’t think this would be your desired result, and while I am certainly no fan of the “assimilation” cult, neither is it my desired result.
I think you raise a larger question, though, that should probably be its own diary, and that is that it appears that this social ghettoization is what the mainstream society desires.
That frees it up from having to trouble itself too much with these unpleasant subjects, or question its own mores, values, priorities, as well as all the other scary stuff that goes along with the Presence of the Other. It has, after all, done its duty, sent a strong message of being arrested and sent to jail.
As the Other, we are not part of the barn-raising. Oh, occasionally one of us may be invited to this or that, as the Token symbol of somebody’s idea of “liberalism,” but if our barn should need raising, it will be most likely that somebody who has smiled in our face will have burned it, and it will not be the larger community who comes to raise our new one.
What will be raised for us are a succession of deterrents.
I find this statement by you;
to be so offensively, perhaps deliberately presumptuous that I can hardly describe my reaction in words.
I regard your writings as generally reflecting a broad splash of brilliance, but your characteristic propensity, your obvious pre-dilection for disparaging “mainstream”, (usually western), perspectives frequently mitigates the brilliance of so many of your insights because you seem to so frequently devolve into this accusatory mode, as though it’ goes without thinking that a major societal community that may oppose a particular perspective of yours is automatically guilty of seeking to sabotage, minimize, subvert, or otherwise diminish (“ghettoize”, in the above statement), some other group or culture.
You want to assert in your typically disdainful way that people who oppose permitting the perpetration of this mutilation ritual are somehow representative of a monolithic effort by an entire culture to “ghettoize” another culture, to isolate an entire group of people within a larger social structure, and I just call bulshit on that entire meme you’re putting forward.
And I’m tired of pursuing this dialog. I see no indication you’re interested in anything more than pontifcating your own perspective on this matter.
that it is a fact? This is something that goes far beyond FGM, even beyond the US.
Ethnic minorities have been marginalized and ghettoized systematically for quite some time.
You are probably not old enough to remember this, but there was a time when it was common in the city of Boston to see signs in windows looking for employees that said at the bottom “No Irish Need Apply.”
The US had legalized apartheid until the 1960s, and even today, de facto racial and ethnic segregation in US and much of Europe is simply a fact.
This was what the recent “riots” in France were about, though there was considerable effort made by the American media to connect them somehow to “jihad” and “Al Qaeda.” Including right here, I saw such things!
None of this has nothing to do with my perspective or my opinion, it is simply fact.
Because it is so universal, and has existed for so long, it is reasonable to assume that this is because the mainstream desires it so.
The fact that peoples and cultures have been marginalized and ghettoized within other cultures and societies is not in dispute at all. What I find offensive and insulting and presumptuous is your using this fact to imply that in the instance of people opposing the facilitation of FGM in hospitals here in the US that they are opposing this because they are seeking to ghettoize a culture or because it;
This is a generalized, and sadly typically accusatory form of argument you use frequently, attributing motive to particular people regarding particular issues to the broader cultural or societal framework within which those people might be living. It is the exact form of condemnation and judgmentalism about which you posture yourself as being so categorically opposed to. You are rendering your own arrogant judgment on people based on the society in which they live, and based, (seemingly), on the notion that anyone in those cultures is automatically guilty of possessing the worst characteristics of that culture; as though all members of a particular society are monolithically inclined, and that the only perspective relevant to that society from the outside is yourown condemnatory one.
This is how tyrants and megalomaniacs of all sorts demonize those they want to conquer or destroy, and I am very saddenned to see you engaging in this sort of judgmentalism by category. It makes a mockery of your brilliance.
Prevailing views exist in all cultures, minority and majority.
Attitudes, opinions and beliefs of the larger society will of necessity define how that society accepts or does not accept Others, and how that acceptance or non acceptance, that demonization or non demonization, will affect the attitudes of the Others toward that mainstream society.
I will at some point probably take my “solutions” comment from this diary, I would be interested in knowing what ideas people have beyond imprisonment, and not just regarding FGM, but for now I have started another diary on the subject of Anti-Otherness in general, and because this thread has become so unwieldy, it will be easier I think, for people to express outrage at my uppitness in the new one:
OtherFear OtherDemons: Slouching Toward Tribalization
Just to be clear, there’s nothing in my views concerning this issue or your attitude and judgmentalism that has anything to do at all with perceiving “uppitiness on your part, and I resent the implication your rhetoric seems to imply in that regard.
I reject the automaticity of your condemnatory judgment and your propensity for attributing motivation to people based on the cultural environments in which they might live.
This is not uppitiness, it’s discriminatory arrogance based on either class, nationality, race, religious affiliation, geopolitical location or some combination of these.
I’m done here.
Rather admitting to a rather intractable case of uppitiness.
And the invitation to express outrage at my uppitness in the new diary was intended for everyone, including but not limited to you. I hope you will find it satisfactorily arrogant and offensive, and possibly even interesting. 🙂
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm#a1
Thanks Cabin Girl!
thank you for this link sybil. I have to say that while I can fully understand how people immersed in ages old cultural behavior seem to so readily accept the customs of that culture unquestioningly, I find it interesting here that no one seems to be even trying to make a claim to a practical reason for this particular practise beyond satisfying the somewhat amorphous ideas of someone in antiquity as to what consitutes enhanced feminity, and to the base desire to control the fidelity and obedience of women by carving thyem up in a way that reduces their sexual drive and makes them more docile.
I see no way to defend the facilitation of this practise on any level.
who you callin a lady? 😉
I’d love to do a clean-up job for you, but alas…doorbell just rang and I’ve got some drumming to do….to the best of my knowledge, no, it does not serve any purpose outside the ceremonial and/or proof of viginity.
And I repeat, repeat, repeat: I don’t CONDONE the practice. I just don’t think it’s my job to condemn it. (keep trying to remember the name of the University of Chicago feminist scholar who has gone so far as to argue that we western feminist women have no business interfering in cultures that practice ritual rape of women….just to point out that I am not the only western feminist woman to have begun taking the stance that it is not our job to interfere with these people’s beliefs and practices, however repugnant and/or illegal they may be to us).
Walker is probably the best source on the ‘gorey details’. As I mentioned upthread, I do know that there have been “modifications” reducing the procedure to a more symbolic level that is less damaging to the sexual function of the women.
I will tell you this much: these changes are not necessarily coming about in the interest of enhancing women’s sexual experience, some of it is changing because MEN realized (after having sex with western women), that sex was much more fun for MEN when the women were having fun (at least that’s the argument I got from my drum teacher when he told me why he was opposing his wives’ efforts to subject their daughters to the procedure). Verbatim: sex is a lot better (for the man) when the woman is ‘having fun’ too.
Gotta run…. (may the thundering applause and howls of “don’t forget to shut the shithouse door behind you” begin)…. sorry to have to bug out on you gramps, but indeed the drums do call………………
(oops, this was supposed to have gone out about an hr ago; subject too long, post failed…so anyway….sorry to leave you in the lurch DF, but what the drums said was ….that discussion is going nowhere you want to go)
And as you have doubtless surmised, I don’t agree with you on the subject of interference. It reminds me of a diary I have not written, that BrendaStewart asked me to write, on the subject of ethics, and I must, because I said I would, but anyway, in thinking about it, I kept coming back to Hippocrates, and his “First do no harm,” so where harm is being done, I do not have an ethical objection to interfering. On the contrary, I’m obviously in favor of it.
The question, though, is how does one effectively interfere to bring about the desired change, without doing harm?
And that is where I disagree with the ones who would ban the doctors and their anesthesia and symbolic “incisions.” Considering what will happen to the girl otherwise, this banning in my opinion, does harm.
If one chooses to interfere/intervene, yes, this is the definitive question: how to meddle without making a mess. My point about butting out: I don’t think it’s any of our business to meddle, but it’s not like I condemn people who disagree with that, as long as their efforts to ‘help’ or to bring about the desired change do no harm. I don’t think “we” as “westerners” should meddle, but that’s just my opinion. I’m not trying to issue it as an edict.
FOR ME, after many years of ‘meddling’ in African affairs in the sincere attempt to ‘help’ w/o doing harm–many years in which I did succeed in doing much (not w specific regard to FGM)–I have finally come to the conclusion that no matter who I am, no matter how good my intentions, no matter how well-informed and well-meaning: my meddling (as a westerner) in their affairs will always end up doing irreparable damage because I necessarily bring my cultural ‘baggage’ (figuratively and literally!) with me, and there is no way I can control what ‘litter’ I may or may not leave behind or what litter may follow in my wake.
Already after my second trip down there, I had seen what our influence as westerners (beginning in 1986) was doing to the culture in a very short time. As the plane was taking off, I looked down and saw the area surrounding the airfield littered with plastic bottles, plastic bags, plastic, plastic, plastic, everywhere. They hadn’t been there the first time I landed. I looked down and said, “Hmm. Puts a whole new twist on white trash, don’t it?” From that moment on, I have questioned every move I have made toward ‘interfering’ with that culture. For many years, I continued despite these reservations. When I returned in 2000 and again 2002, there were fucking Pringles for sale at BP and Shell stations (when I first arrived there there was no such thing as a gas station), don’t know why it was the Pringles, or maybe it was the fucking christmas lights all over the place, that put me over the edge, I knew…It’s not my business to meddle here. It isn’t. I don’t want anything to do with this process. I don’t. So, that applies personally to ME.
It might be a different story if I were a nurse or doctor, but then I would say I’d serve the culture better by training indigenous people from the culture here in the west and allowing them to bring it back to their culture w/o my involvement.
I have yet to see any indigenous culture come in contact with the west and not be destroyed by it. The risk of facilitating this kind of ‘contact’ is too great to me.
I agree completely with you on this point: as long as it is inevitably going to be done (though we might hope it will stop someday, because we all do agree that the practice itself is not a good thing (most of us consider it abhorrent/repugnant), then the conditions for it to be done as safely as possible should be established. Here the back alley abortion argument applies; but a similar argument could be found in drug treatment programs, or the handling of prostitution in Europe.
However, since FGM has no medical value, and its value is purely “ceremonial” (a value I would place on a par with medical) as a rite of passage. The actual incision is only part of a larger ceremony, as DF keeps reminding us, is a rite of passage to adulthood. (I’m leaving the “attractiveness to men” factor out here, and thinking only in terms of the value to the woman in her own right–i.e. as human being) so a surgical procedure in a hospital defeats that purpose unless you can, in the example of the African village, clear out a hospital for a 2-3 day period, bring in all the drummers and all the members of the women’s family and community, conduct in the space of the hospital all the steps of the ritual.
I don’t know what they are in this particular case, only that as with any momentous ceremonial rite, they are likely to be elaborate and require much song, dance and celebration. My point being, as soon as you move the event into a hospital setting it loses at least some , if not all, of its ceremonial value unless you can reconstruct the whole elaborate rite in the community context (the powwow in the gymnasium phenomenon!). So if you want to bring western medicine into it, you have to bring the MD to the maiden, as it were.
And that, is of course, just MY take on it. I have never seen one of these ceremony/rituals, but was once taught the song that goes along with it.
That alone was interesting: the MEN taught us the song and when the women heard what was going on, they swiftly put an end to it. In twenty years, I’ve never heard anyone sing that song again, and I have never sung it, except to myself, so I still know how it goes. Nor have I ever taught it to anyone, and never will.
The women were secretive about the details (for obvious reasons), but the fact that the song was readily in the men’s minds and they even began teaching it tells me that it was to them just another song in their repertoire: that means there must be a big drum ceremony/festival, “hoe-down” 😉 sort of event to accompany the rite of passage.
Maybe an alternative would be to give the women who perform the ceremony the necessary training to perform it safely (and perhaps give them a few pointers about ways they could do it minimally). Might be the least culturally detrimental way of mitigating the damage inflicted on the individual girls/to/women and hope that over time, then, the women would also come to conclude that less ‘radical’ incisions are better–as I said, I think they are already coming around to that conclusion. Giving them the tools and knowledge to make it safer might also speed up the process of lessening the severity of it.
So anyway, I’m tired. And if there’s anyone who’s made it this far into this encyclopedic post….the forest spirit on the wall kept cocking his head while we were rehearsing: I think he was trying to say–you’re sounding like shit, girl, you haven’t been practicing enough, now you have two important gigs coming up….quit blogging and start drumming.
Just glancing through the recent comments, looks like the flame throwers are busy. Pls do not let it get out of hand. Pls lets not have an FGM war.
If I’ve p’d anyone off: sorry. Really was not my attempt. As always, just an attempt to explain where I’m coming/drumming from.
Thank you for the clarification. Yes, I was talking exclusively about such practices in a purely western context.
I envy you your time in Africa, The only country I’ve visited in Africa is Egypt anlthough I’ve spent a great deal of time in India, parts of Europe and Australia.
I think the smugness is a defense; it keeps the problem “out there”.
This is an extremely painful topic. Underneath everything we’re saying roils the conflict between a desire to make our children’s lives conventional and safe, or freeing them from hurtful cultural norms. The more poisonous your society, the higher the stakes. Conformity kills the soul and perpetuates abhorrent practices, but rebellion is dangerous and lonely. This is one hell of a choice when we are gambling with our children’s lives and happiness.
I think this subject makes us wonder if we have betrayed our children in ways so profound that it frightens us. You have given us the Values Clarification Seminar From Hell, Ductape.
I just read a paper this week about the different cultural approaches to dealing with conflict. And while we will never get any confirmation from Ductape, his/her style fits perfectly with those that are described as common in Middle Eastern countries.
Whether or not there is any truth to this, it helped me listen better to him/her – as I realized that I only had negative reactions go him/her when the conversation was conflictual.
Just for future typing simplicity, DTF is a man.
in quite those terms until you brought it up earlier, but I think you are on to something.
I know it made me think of my own descendants, and how do you strike that balance? When they are teen girls and they want this or that item at what point do you worry that they will be too caught up in the beauty game? But on the other hand, in every culture, in every age, ladies have wanted, and in my old-fashioned opinion, should have beautiful clothes if they wish them (I am sure I will be flamed for that one!) 🙂
And how could a modern western mother help but wonder if she is doing the right thing when she buys her daughter that first pair of the crippling shoes?
I have seen this more than once, when they come home from that first dance, with blisters and red marks on the feet. Which in time, if they continue wearing them, will develop into more permanent damage. Some western women now go to surgeons to have some of their toes removed so that they can wear even more painful shoes. But of course that cannot be compared to the barbaric and savage custom of Chinese foot binding back in the day!
Where is the line drawn? Is piercing the ears and nose barbaric? Many cultures have this done when the baby is born, so that she will not remember the pain of it, and hope that she will be in such shock from the birth that she will not feel it.
I honestly can’t say what position I take on this issue after reading what you have to say, Ductape, though I have to say I’m leaning toward your side of the fence.
What does horrify me is the cannibalization that goes on in this and other threads over issues like this that require reasoned, intelligent debate. It’s why I don’t play here any more. It’s why I play here instead.
fine old museum quality computers, which is what I have. It takes forever to load, and never quite does.
I wish it were not so, I have heard very nice things about it!
And thank you for your kind words! 🙂
Have you tried recently? I’ll admit it’s rough on the old computers (like the one I have at home), but it’s definitely quicker loading than, say, this thread.
I think you would be a PERFECT fit there, better than I am, probably. Better than you are here.
be a good fit here. I am a thorn in the side, a terrorist sleeper cell, a dangerous savage, my very presence an affront to the sons of Calvin, not to mention the Pepperidge Farm Company and all its products. As you can see, I am an evildoer who hates freedom. Zarq keeps telling me I am not a good fit here too.
Remember that time we got him into that bar in Tikrit and got him drunk? LOL.
or was it right after? Anyway, he is still pissed about leaving his leg there. He said it was the best one, MAlibu Ken material. Now since Halliburton got the contract they just send him those lame Wal-Mart ones that only last a month or so and get soggy in milk. It’s not easy being a composite character, as he keeps reminding me, every time I notice he’s eaten all the lime yogurt – again.
Isn’t he due to get killed again soon? Then I can have all his lime yogurt. MWAHAHA
It’s an emotional topic.
It’s a topic that makes most of us at some level very angry and upset.
the way the topic has been raised and argued by the diary is complex and at times difficult to understand.
None of the above excuses handing out 0s and 1s for comments that you don’t agree with. Combined with people repeatedly insisting that individuals on this thread are liars despite ample evidence that they are not is even worse.
We do seem to have our share of self-appointed mindguards, unfortunately. Thing is, our would-be mindguards forget groupthink only works if the group is cohesive, and this bunch at the frogpond (thankfully) is about as cohesive as a herd of house cats. As I have six cats at my house, I have developed some expertise in the sheer futility of ever rounding them all up at once (not even catnip or the sound of yummy treats seems to work).
So it goes. Anyhoo, I have my claws sharpened and I’ll be uprating the posts that have been subjected to said abuse.
when you talk about cutting off their penises. I don’t think women are very good at being rational when you start talking about cutting out clitorises (plural)? I mean really.
See, from men “circumcision” vs female “cutting” as you call it. But the difference is like the story of the chicken who asked the pig out for breakfast, ham and eggs. The pig said to the chicken, they’re not asking for the same level of sacrifice from you as they are from me.
You talk about female “cutting” — but amputating is a more accurate description. It’s amputating an organ. From the male, circumcision is removing a bit of skin. For the woman as well as the man, the particular organ holds the most nerve endings of any place on the body, and is something that we instinctively protect.
I’m not objecting to your objective, historical long view of the situation. It seems to have some validity. Look, folks this train is moving, you’re not going to stand in front of it and stop it.
Yet you ask us to be honest in dialog, but I think in writing you need to be honest, also. Don’t talk about “cutting” like you’re describing a paper cut. As mentioned, it’s an amputation. An organ is removed.
IF you imagine how you’d feel if someone came after you to cut off your penis, then you have some understanding of how easy it is for women to find it difficult to be objective about this.
I also think that men in general just don’t get what a huge burden of discrimination women bear in this society, as well as others. We’re sensitive about it. It sucks. It takes so many forms. We’re sick of it, it’s like going through life with an anchor attached. That spills over into discussions like this — the idea that a custom where women bear a greater burden than men, we tend to not be thrilled about it.