Maybe it was the button I picked up one day, a few decades ago, on the college campus quad area: “If It Moves, Fondle It.” Maybe it’s just me … but I hate pretending to be prissy or getting uptight about normal human intereactions and functions.
Back to the veterinarian’s office yesterday. I’m waiting for the tech to bring out Leo from the recovery room. A woman with two middle-school-aged girls is chatting vivaciously with another vet tech. They’re talking about how much fun they’re all having with swing dancing.
Dancing! I love to watch it, even that silly show on ABC, although the PBS shows are vastly superior for the dancing and the music. So I ask them, “Hi! Do any of you watch the ABC dancing show?”
“Well, only parts of it.”
“Oh,” I say. “And did you see the PBS championship ballroom dancing competition last week?”
“Only some portions. Some of the Latin dances …”
“Why?” I ask. ” I think it’s so gorgeous.”
“It’s much too provocative.” Both of them sniff a bit. The other one: “Yes, much too provocative.”
I kind of made a face but got the picture. It’s wrong to have sexual and sensual feelings? Typical me. I couldn’t keep my mouth shut. “Oh, for the love of god,” said I. They didn’t reply. What would you have said? Maybe I should have talked loudly about “my friend’s” undescended testicles. (I’ll bet those teen girls have abstinence rings too, as if that means a damn thing. Ugh.)
I’m an impulsive speaker too.
Freedom of expression…they thought that dancing was too provocative?
Hey, Clooney is on Larry King, which I normally don’t watch, but he’s talking politics. I hope he gives some insight to the Abramoff remarks.
Please, these chillun sound like prissy old broads who saw their last orgasm 30 years ago.
What a shame that it should come to this. Sensuality is fun…sex is fun, too. Bodies are beautiful.
What a great list! WOW!
Can I add — grrrrrrr — Jim Morrison?
Sensuality is fun. My mom was repressive that way. One time my aunt Clara came over, and she wrestled with my brother and me on the livingroom floor. We had SO MUCH fun! And it wasn’t even sensual — it was just fun to wrestle, be close, be hugged (!) by an adult. But my mom sat stiffly in her chair looking down at us with anger.
And I remember how we girls HELD HANDS in school — up to high school. Nowadays, kids never hold hands. (That’s “gay,” they say.)
Touching is so important.
Say, congrats on your nomination for writing! You deserve it so much.
but I forgot his name until now.
You know what I would have said?
“You’re too young to be sooooo old.”
That’s a lovely thing to say… perfect.
Then i could have said, “Wait til you have your first orgasm! WOAH!”
(Of course I’d never … but … )
Might I add Queen Latifah? SHE is by far my favorite part of Chicago … “I’ll pepper your ragout” always makes me laugh out loud at its subversiveness. Too bad they cut the “Class” song from the film version, because she really shone in that one too. Just my snowy 2cents worth here.
Sex is fun when the bodies aren’t all that beautiful too.
When people get up tight and prissy about sex because apparently God don’t play that, my wife and I remind them that it was God that made if feel so good.
Might as well remind them he made weed too, and that they go together.
probably just say something like, “Well, I thought it was beautiful.”
These are probably the same people who are trying to ban “freak dancing” at school functions…
Glad to hear Leo is doing well…
my in-laws love all the dancing…and they’re in their 70s. Sounds like your two conversation partners are old before their time.
Mom-in-law loves to watch the dancing competitions; dancing is one of the things she misses most since being in the wheelchair… 🙁
What is “freak dancing”?
Those shows are fun. And I just realized I forgot to watch last night. I was trying to figure out how to log back in to BoomanTribune. I couldn’t get to the site! Went to every tech site I could find, and tried everything … finally gave up and went to bed.
to life????
Seems that is what we are teaching these days!
When Darcy was in school, I was getting a bit appalled by the sex ed, not because it was taught, but because the overwhelming emphasis was on disease.
When I was her age, it was a sin. In her generation, it brings diseases.
Something’s always wrong with sex, isn’t it.
I would have just let them be, I think. As long as they weren’t suggesting that the stuff shouldn’t be shown on TV, it’s just as much their right and prerogative to ignore it as it is mine to watch it. I’m not about to apply my moral standards to someone else as long as they’ll return that favor.
Maybe it’s that I grew up in very strict moral times … any girl who got pregnant before marriage was ruined for life, in my parents’ view.
Only bad women went to taverns, had pierced ears.
I’d heard nothing non-stop but what women shouldn’t let men do to them. So, college was an eye-opener.
It was probably a tiny bit rude of me, but at least those two girls know that not everything thinks like their mom and friends.
Nah, I don’t think it was rude of you, and I hope my post didn’t come across that way. I was just saying what I’d do…but I grew up in a very relaxed environment, and I think that comes across in the way I interact with people.
Once these young ladies leave the nest (or who knows, maybe before?) I’m sure they’ll have plenty of opportunities to open their eyes, if they choose to. If they don’t choose to, well, a close-minded person is a close-minded person, no matter what they settle on as being right. At least, that’s the way I think…
Maybe the two women were Baptists, like my wife used to be. She’s the one who asked me if I knew why Baptists were against premarital sex?
Because it could lead to dancing.
I think “oh for the love of god” was just about right.
You can watch the ABC show, but not the PBS show?
As the late, great Shirley Horn would sing in “Come Dance With Me”:
Sad thing is, a lot of folks would think their reactions are good. Talk about your mind-fuck. So what happens in a few years when they swing from extreme to another?
((sigh)) Why can’t we teach people balance? Geeze…
They said they could only watch portions of either program.
Now, since there were teen girls, it’s safe to presume these women have had sex at some point.
You’re SO right about dancing. … and that’s part of the fun of watching it. It’s very sexy.
That Russian (I think Russian) guy who danced on PBS — with his untied formal tie and tux shirt loosed at the neck — was so damn sexy I thought hed unzip his pants at any second. Woah … and his partner was just as “in” to him as he to her.
They were probably performing but they’re good enough that they seemed VERY real. Exquisite.
As someone with kids recently out of middle school, I recall them telling me that during Latin dancing, some of the boys thought it was a neat time to jam their groins against the girls’ buttocks, or drag the girls against them in an unwelcome fashion. When chaperoning dances at their high school, I saw several instances when boys sidled up to girls uninvited and attempted to “freak” with them from behind. It was particularly uncomfortable for girls who were not comfortable giving those boys the ferocity of “no” that was warranted in that situation. It essentially drove some of the girls off of the floor.
It is possible that the girls were imagining themselves in a position of being “moved on” in unwelcome ways on the dance floor. In other words, their distaste might have been more about boundaries than about sensuality.
Only the moms talked . The girls stood dutifully silent.
But, you just made me remember something: that in college guys would shove their groin against me at school dances, and it DID make me feel uncomfortable .. and the leer on their faces didn’t help.
It probably happens a lot more these days, and at a younger age. That would be disturbing to any teen girl.
Guys need to be taught — perhaps by school chaperones? — that that bothers girls.
What do you think?
I’m a guy. My advice if a guy does that to you is to either slap the shit out of him, or say something like. “oh excuse me is that a roll of dimes in your pocket?” Leave off the “or are you just happy to see me?”
I can remember when I was a college boy and even a teen age boy. I guess way back then, we were into talking the girl into giving it up rather than being so boorish. Of course, I’m sure the girls we were lying to were just as upset as the ones you refer to.
Someone playing sex machine on me; and I hadn’t even invited them? Sick.
Whereas, I am thinking right now of the black frats and sorors party in Spike Lee’s film, School Daze and how they got down while doing Da Butt in bathing suits and bikinis. Now that was some wild and crazy throwdown…
It has been going on for a long time. Repress sexual stuff. In the Southern Baptist churches especially.
I am going to say something very controversial about the first thread I read here tonight.
I see that many in a thread are absolutely demolishing Dean and the DNC for recent changes in the party about the GLBT outreach. I am not of that community, but I think so much is being taken too far of context.
Governor Dean wrote a letter to the editor of the Blade, he met with the leaders personally. He had a fundraiser recently, one of many. I can not in my mind believe anyone who followed his campaign or paid any attention to him along the way….would damn him like that. That is so far away from what he stands for. I know this is going on all over the forums now, and I will not be popular saying anything about it. In fact wrath will be turned on me. I can see being concerned, but the utter fury toward him is overwhelming.
I felt kind of sad to see it here. So I had my say, be back another day. None of us seems to get anything we want, the party doesn’t cater enough to any of us. But the other party offers me nothing at all but hate and anger. Maybe that is why I felt uncomfortable reading that tonight.
If you missed the 6:00pm PST, he is on again at 9:00pm PST with Larry King. It’s a great interview in spite of Larry.
I would’ve just asked them if they wanted to dance, winked and then walked away leaving them all alone with their repressed and conflicted feelings.
Oh yes, “objectified man.” You really could have done that … wish I’d had you along.
OK, it’s late, but I’ll be the wet blanket, as far as kids are concerned. I’ve seen dances in elementary schools: freaking, in which girls grab their ankles, while boys jam their groins against the girls butts, grinding. 10 and 11 year olds, and not just a few kids, lots of them. They see it on MTV, and some want to do it; others do it because they think it is expected, or the “thing to do”.
I think the early sexualization of kids is wrong. I’m not talking about denying sexuality, or promoting the travesty of sex education – like the abstinence crap that is passed off as sex ed by the Bushovians. Let the body grow up to approximately match thinking and feeling before kids are doing sex and making choices about sex. Before that happens, I worry about coercion and learning that is just plain dangerous.
Well … i’m tired but let me see if i can express this coherently …
First, children have sexual feelings from birth. I sure did. I just didn’t know that that was what it was.
But I think you’re talking about the behavior that kids pick up from those appallingly bad performers like Britney Spears and her ilk (I don’t know most of those performers’ names).
How do we describe that kind of “act”? It’s not bawdy. It’s not sensual. It’s about as crude and disgusting as a Deja Vu bump-and-grind the fake breasts dance.
My movie / tv models when I was very young were Natalie Woods in “West Side Story,” Elvis Presley movies, and the like … passionate, hot, but never ever crude.
When I mentored 5th graders, I was astonished by the crude overt sexual behavior of many of them. One girl even took a knife and drew the word “WHORE” on the back of her hand … she and I became close, and she really trusted me, but boy she made me worry.
I agree that kids’ bodies are sensitive from birth, in all parts, and kids certainly feel love. But as to this being sexual in the sense that adults are sexual, I’d disagree (and I’d be happy to talk with you about this at another time – I’m a developmental psychologist.) I certainly think a child’s body can be sexually aroused, but the brain and emotions aren’t developed to go along with this until later. When you see a very young child, like a preschooler, or a kid in elementary school, doing sexual acts or simulating them (and I’m not talking about masturbation here), it isn’t a natural expression. Sensuality, yes, in the sense of sensation. Feeling sensitive parts of the body can be soothing, pleasurable to children. But being provocative toward other children, toward adults, attempting or engaging in adult-type sexual acts isn’t what children are naturally disposed to do unless they have picked it up from someone, seen it modeled by “high status” persons (a la various rap/music idols), or had it done to them.
Being flirtatious, sexy, bawdy, fun & sensual is great fun carrying on as adults do. I love that. I also think it is important for children to see adults of all ages enjoying some of that. I just don’t like to see girls expected to dress as if from “whores-are-us” and being taught that their physical attributes are more important than anything else about them. (And at the same time being told to abstain from sexual activity until marriage. What a bind for kids!)
Maybe I’m sounding curmudgeonly because I had a conference this week with one of my 18 year old students who has pledged to be a virgin, and she was wearing a spangled thong, short lace skirt, and a fur sweater tied above her waist. Oh, and a large pendant with “true love waits” on it. She explained that this was her pledge to remain a virgin until she married.
Curmudgeonly? Nah.
I have two daughters, almost 13, and almost 16. HELP!! ;o)
It’s a near constant struggle with them and me for that matter to define for them what’s apprpriate at their age and what isn’t. The young woman you describe is a perfect example of the mixed signals they get and the pressures that are put on them from an early age.
In our home sex is a fairly open subject. Has been all along. The same way all subjects are openly discussed here. That has been our number one tool for keeping them safe from so many of the outside pressures. Still, they do wear clothes that are considered sexy. I try not to censor their personal likes and dislikes too much but there are certain lines that can’t be crossed.
On the subject of abstinence rings or other things that serve as reminders of a personal choice to wait. I see nothing wrong with these at all and besides being a personal reminder, they might serve to let others, mainly boys, that that person is not available in that way. Kind of like wedding rings are generally a sign that a person is unavailable.
My oldest daughter has told me that she is actually respected more for her virginity than those who aren’t and it doesn’t have anything to do with morals as she percieves her peers to see it. It has more to do with her honesty to herself and her ability to maintain and honor that decision. Also, in no way is she judgemental of her peers who’ve chosen the opposite for themselves.
My fingers remain crossed :o)
You are such a good dad. It IS really hard to be a parent and deal with the culture that kids are in.
I still don’t care much for the “I’m saving it” jewelry. We have a lot of frank discussions about sex in my classes (college kids). Some guys like and respect the girls/young women who are open about not having sex casually. Other guys say they see these girls/young woment differently: some as preferred prey (their words) – “clean”, not likely infected; a challenge; or girls who will do anything except “missionary” sex, as they put it. I hear the last thing from some of the females, too, doing anything except “traditional” or “old-fashioned” sex.
Now, I’m not saying any of those less desirable things are gonna be out there for your girls. (Girls who have parents who talk to them about sex are much less likely to get into trouble that kids whose parents say little or nothing or just “sex is baaaddd”.
Oh, and that 18year old who I talked to – she’s old enough to wear anything she can get by with, in my book, but I still worry about her.
I remember being a teen-ager: to me it was an awful self-consciousness and yearning to fit in, to not be weird, an ache to be accepted for who you were at the same time not knowing who the hell you were. The girl dressing in a way that says “fuck me now,” but also professing to remain a virgin is the perfect metaphor.
Know what? My tin foil hat says that MTV and the wingnuts are together on a lot of this. How would they sell anything if it weren’t for the other?
Seriously.
It’s one extreme to another. It’s like the way we eat: we eat all the fatty, processed stuff one day and punish ourselves by going on the cabbage soup diet the next.
I’ve heard of the “freak” dancing, which seems to be an update on terms if not actual dancing. When I was much younger, George Clinton’s “Atomic Dog” and its attendant dance move, “the dog”, left little to the imagination. Very little. As a teenager, “Da Butt” was da move. It’s pretty stupid-looking, but again, unmistakable overtones.
I’m trying to remember if there was unwanted closeness/touching…can’t remember that. What I DO remember, however, is unwanted touching in the halls…we didn’t have the term “sexual harassment” then. It was “slap the shit outta him” or “scratch the shit out of him.” Not too enlightened.
I had a point, and maybe I’m too sleepy to find it…oh yeah! Why don’t we teach young men and women the appropriate way to act? Unless young men pick up the signal and are encouraged to act the fool, because like the moronic, stupid-ass Willy Don Schaefer, they get that women are objects for their use only.