The world has some dirty callings, but those who are charged with the defense of atrocities win the “hard row to hoe” contest hands down.
These days, they are usually Americans, defending American atrocities. It’s not that people from other countries never commit atrocities, just that at this particular time in history, Americans have effectively cornered the market and nobody else can get an atrocity in edgewise.
In fact, America has become so defined by atrocity, such a leading global producer that it is hard to imagine why anyone would see the need to go out and defend them. Or send someone to do so.
As usual, it is the fault of the internets. While almost nobody would be stupid enough to go into a crowd of Americans and criticize their atrocities unless they had their heart set on suicide by angry mob, on the internets, where the angry mobs are forced to sit helplessly by as American atrocities are roundly condemned and criticized from everybody from survivors and their families, to even the odd American of black and traitorous soul.
The villain, one must remember, is always the person who asserts that no, he or she would not commit an atrocity. Not if they were young, not if they needed relief from stress, not even if they were to receive a financial benefit or honorarium of some kind.
Self-righteous moralistic arrogant scum! To suggest that they would not slaughter infants, shame white haired granny and pre-teen girl alike, even if they believed another country had disobeyed America?
That is just nonsense. They haven’t been there so they don’t know what it’s like.
When the villain is not American, this last argument is not so frequently invoked. Atrocity defenders are no fools, and while they may be able to occasionally hit a nerve of one of their countrymen with the you don’t know what it’s like mallet, hmm, well, let’s just say it may be wiser to change the strategy a bit when confronted with a non-American opposer of atrocity.
One of the more popular methods of atrocity defense requires no argument at all, merely pointing out to one’s listeners how awful it was for the poor perp, being forced to commit all those atrocities, how they just never were the same, not quite right, really, and they didn’t get the help they needed from the government either!
Conveniently in the bizarro world of the atrocity apologist, the survivors are mercifully free of any unpleasant sequelae, and are exactly the same as they were before the atrocity, and just in case they should in later years, suffer stress, the entire US government stands ready to spare no expense to help them recover from being on the receiving end of America’s world-famous atrocities.
Of course it is human nature, this justification of the most horrific atrocities, it is a combination of the primitive spirit of tribal loyalty, coupled with a natural defensive mechanism. But it goes deeper than that.
What the atrocity apologist reveals about him or herself is an uncertainty about his own identity, his own sense of personal responsibility, his own moral absolutes, lack thereof, or uncertainty about the existence of same.
Most people do share some basic moral absolutes, and Milgram notwithstanding, most people do have the capacity to simply refuse to do certain things, or even put themselves in a situation where these things would be demanded of them, even if a financial benefit is offered.
While many may have a limited ability to suspend reason to the extent necessary to enjoy a fairy tale, or a movie about spaceships from far galaxies or hobbits or wizard academies, and may also be able to extrapolate this suspension to more serious situations, such as the pronouncements of a politician or warlord, and out of that same ability that believes in wizards for two hours in a darkened theatre, because he has a very healthy need to take a break from reality for a while, and indeed benefits from that break, and that enjoyment, he believes “evildoers who hate freedom” because not to do so may require the processing of ideas that are simply emotionally unbearable, but he will in most cases, stop short of allowing that soothing belief to carry him into a situation where he must commit an atrocity or die.
Such a situation does not occur instantly, and the choice one makes in such an extreme moment is only the final step of a journey of many steps, many choices.
It is not unlike the decision that most of us make every day to go to work instead of simply hitting a smaller person over the head and taking their money, or renting out the bodies of our children. Even if fear of societally-imposed consequences plays a part in that decision for some, for many individuals, those “easier” choices would not be possible even if there were no chance of being arrested or put in jail. These things are simply not compatible with their moral values, moral absolutes which will not be breached regardless of the circumstances.
So what if someone we love, a family member, a dear friend, commits an action which violates our own moral absolutes? How will we reconcile our love for this person, our sense of being, with this person, a part of some shared larger entity, so much one with that person in some ways that his action becomes part of our own experience, and indeed, if he and I are both part of that larger entity, does his action not now become part of what that entity is? Part of what we are? Part of what I am?
That is the very natural enotional reaction, even beyond emotions, it triggers within us a “fight or flight” instinct: we must either fight – not only against those who condemn the actions of our loved one, or even remind us that those actions have crossed our own moral absolutes, but against ourselves.
In order to protect the part of ourselves that is part of that larger entity, and part of that loved one, we must fight the knowledge that we would never rent out our child’s body for money, or hit an old lady on the head and take her purse. No matter what the situation, no matter what pressures we might be under, we simply would. not. do. that. No way, no how. We do not have to think about it, we do not have to examine any factors. It is that self-knowledge that we must fight against, in order to keep intact our sense of belonging to that larger entity, our sense of belonging and partofme-ness that we feel for our loved one.
The other choice is flight. Flight from the larger entity, flight from the loved one. Flight into what? That entity, that loved one, is all we know, it is part of us, our identity. If we renounce it, what will take its place? What will we be part of then? And is it not also against our moral values to abandon our loved one in his time of need? See how he suffers! He will never be the same. His terrible choice, his sin, if you will, is now and forever a part of his own identity, it will define him. And, a voice inside our heads reminds us, it will forever define that larger entity of which we both are part, it will forever define OUR OWNSELF!
And so the atrocity apologist has not taken up his grisly mantle thougtlessly. Like the perpetrator he defends, he too has travelled a long road, grappled with impossible choices at every turn.
So it is with each one of us, when we choose whether to confront the apologist, or ignore him. Whether to take his hand and become a link in the chain, or stand apart, and thereby rend the bond of our own belonging, with him, to that larger entity. Even though neither apologist nor perpetrator be of our family, our tribe, nation, culture, they are nevertheless of our kind, our species, and so we each must withstand or succumb to the ripple of the atrocity, we each must face our own impossible choice of fight or flight.
Each of us must decide if we are with him, and the perpetrator, or with his victim.
Is there, then, no middle ground? Can we not “empathize” with the victim, and “disapprove, but not reject” the atrocity itself, the perpetrator and the apologist?
Perhaps superficially. We can certainly grasp at that as our own “defense mechanism” because that fight or flight choice is so wrenching. But like all stopgaps, that is only a temporary measure, only a way to buy some time, and what we hope will be an emotional distance from the horror of it all. That hope, however, is doomed. Sooner or later, we must face ourselves, and acknowledge our own moral absolutes, or lack thereof, because it is that which will place us into the entity of which we are truly a part, and for all we may plant our feet firmly in the other camp, it will, sooner or later become evident that we do not belong there.
But are not all men capable of – ?
No. Thank whatever God believes in you, all men are not. And should “flight” win your fight, should you remove your amulet, turn in your code ring, and through your tears, walk away from a larger entity that simply no longer includes you, and feel yourself falling alone through the void, there are hands who will catch you, arms which will embrace you, and hearts that will welcome you to the family, the tribe, the nation, albeit without borders, to which you have always belonged. 🙂
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Thanks for your thoughts DTF, as always.
THE HAGUE (RNW) May 23 — For the first time in many years, The Netherlands is one of the countries criticised in the annual report of human rights organisation Amnesty International. The 2005 report voices particular criticism of Dutch asylum and deportation policies.
On a more general level, Amnesty reports that there are a number of positive developments across the globe, but also a great deal of disappointing ones. The report says that governments have paralysed some international institutions, sacrificed fundamental principles in the fight against terrorism and simply ignored human rights violations on a massive scale.
Amnesty International
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The report is most critical, however, of the situation in Iran and Syria. Ruud Bosgraaf says these two countries saw a remarkable rise in human rights violations in 2005. On the other hand, there is some positive news, with Amnesty reporting that international and national organisations are holding more and more investigations into alleged human rights violations. The report also welcomes the decision by the United Kingdom’s highest legal authorities that testimony obtained outside the UK by means of torture may not be used in evidence inside the country, as the British government had wanted.
Arrest warrants
Other developments which Amnesty describes as positive included the issuance of the first arrest warrants by the International Criminal Court in The Hague against five leaders of the rebel Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda, and the progress made so far in efforts to bring former presidents Alberto Fujimori (of Peru) and Augusto Pinochet (of Chile) to trial. The worldwide trend towards the abolition of capital punishment is also mentioned in the document. Last year, Mexico and Liberia joined the 122 countries which no longer apply the death sentence.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Any progress in the area of human rights is always good news, and while the US may have center stage in the atrocity department at the moment, it is very important to note that many other countries do look to the US as an example, and follow it.
Yes! and it is this “looking to emulate American national behavior” that compounds the crime, so to speak.
A wise friend of mine was fond of reminding us that; A guru who fucks up comes back as a rock; meaning that someone who has assumed responsibility in the public sphere, someone who positions him/herself as a guardian of the public trust, must needs experience stiffer retribution for transgressions against that public and that trust by being sent all the way back to the beginning of the reincarnation highway as punishment for their crimes.
Clearly we in the US are due to receive a massively severe sentence for the crimes committed against humanity across the planet by our government, a government enabled by our own willful selfishness and sense of entitlement.
Fortunately, most of us will never find out for sure what we are capable of doing under conditions of extreme fear, poverty, brainwashing, peer pressure, culture shock…especially when those pressures are combined with the evil temptations provided by being placed in power over other people.
I would examine the social and institutional pressures that make people behave as they do. Yes, this provides a kind of undignified excuse (though not a justification) for the perps when they later must account for their behavior. But it also yields more radical conclusions than simple condemnation of individuals. It leads to a focus on the poverty that produces street criminals, the injustice that produces terrorists, the racism and greed that produces imperialists.
and acknowledgement of the environments which encourage atrocity, on the contrary, in my opinion it is regrettable that such examination does not “focus on…poverty…injustice…racism…greed,” etc, to the extent that engenders a groundswell of determination and will to change these things, with the goal of ending atrocities. Indeed, where such determination exists, it is very often found among the same villanous cads who oppose atrocity so unconditionally that they refuse to justify it even on the grounds of these environmental factors with the same zeal that they oppose those very factors.
The fact is that thankfully, most people do not commit atrocities, and despite all the very real encouragement to commit them, do not even take that first step down Atrocity road.
Most people, for example, will not molest your child, no matter what, regardless of poverty, racism, greed, or injustice. They will not get themselves into a position where they are expected, ordered, or given a financial bonus advance to molest your child.
There are, however, some people who will. This is a question of mental illness, as well as moral absolutes.
It is not difficult to rationalize the belief that child molestors should receive treatment with the knowledge that you yourself would not be capable of molesting a child under any circumstances, while at the same time taking all necessary measures to protect your child from people who do not share either your fortunate good mental health nor your moral absolutes.
maybe you should define what an atrocity is. You make it sound like every American soldier that fires a weapon is committing an atrocity. If you want to pursue that line of argument, go ahead, but it changes the meaning of atrocity.
As I I’ve said before, horrible things are required of soldiers in wartime, but it is the justness of the war that determines the morality of the violence.
Bush relied on fabricated evidence, and therefore he undermined his entire armed forces’ ability to justify their actions. But that is still not the same as committing atrocities.
…but it is the justness of the war that determines the morality of the violence.
That statement troubles me deeply.
If a war is considered “just” and soldiers in such a war massacre a village of innocent civilians, is that more morally acceptable than the same actions by troops in an unjust war?
See? That’s what happens when you lump all American activity in Iraq into an accusation of atrocity. Suddenly, people have to ask questions like that.
How would you justify “massacr(ing) a village of innocent civilians”?
In the context of Iraq, are all Iraqis innocent civilians? It is even possible to justify the use of American violence there? Any violence? For any reason?
Because things are a little more complicated than just declaring the war immoral and therefore classifying every use of American violence there as an atrocity that has the same moral standing as massacring innocent villages of people.
Cutting a kid in half with a .50 machine gun can be justified in certain cases and not in others. Let’s face facts. The problem with the war in Iraq is that it was instigated under false pretenses to combat a hyped threat. Under these circumstances every use of violence by our troops is suspect. But that doesn’t make every use of violence an atrocity (unless you want to change the meaning of the word).
Killing someone that is trying to kill you (or others) is self-defense. Trying to provide security for the Iraqi government, police, and civilians, is not an atrocity.
We should never have invaded and occupied Iraq under these circumstances. Everyone pretty much knows that by now. But it doesn’t add a whole lot of enlightenment to the problem to lump everything into the category of war crimes and atrocities.
The problem is with Bush and his war cronies. Our soldiers are doing what soldiers do. When we did it to Nazis people applauded. When we do it to Iraqis, people are offended. That’s valid, but it isn’t because our armed forces have suddenly lost the moral bearings. Our civilian leaders did that.
You’ve assigned opinions to me that I didn’t even state. I asked a general question about the so-called morality involved.
I’m talking about Ductape.
I answered you with a question. How would you justify a massacre of a village of innocent people?
If you can’t justify it, it doesn’t matter whether the war is just or not.
about the soldiers who have died in Iraq, “None of my soldiers have died in vain in Iraq! My government has killed them in vain though!*
I answered you with a question. How would you justify a massacre of a village of innocent people?
I wouldn’t.
If you can’t justify it, it doesn’t matter whether the war is just or not.
That was my point.
“Cutting a kid in half with a .50 machine gun can be justified in certain cases and not in others. Let’s face facts.”
I suppose it always depends on whose “facts” we are facing.
right.
If he is running at you with a grenade…
We need to move away from these dichotomies.
I would ask why are we there in the first place? if it comes to a point of killing children personally, I would rather not live in this world. As we are doing it as a country, it is painful enough.
Killing another to prevent him from killing you when both are committed to “winning” isn’t a justification, it’s a wash. One alive and one dead. It can only be considered a justification if the killer believes he has more of a right to live than the killed.
I cannot ask a soldier to consider himself worthy of being killed, and to stand there passively while someone kills him.
The point is not to commit soldiers to battle without absolute necessity.
Before motherhood I had much more say so over my fight or flight response. I had often considered how I would handle a serious assault on my person and was accepting of “losing” my life to be “nonviolent”. It was a wonderful very peaceful feeling time in my life being an adult and not yet a parent. Then I became a mother. I can’t explain it, but Darwin turned the switch on. If you attempt to damage one of my children I will snuff you! My children still need me, particularly my little one, if you attempt to snuff me I will do everything imaginable to snuff you first ruthlessly. This energy in me is nonnegotiable also, and it is instant and I fear quite lethal if it were ever really put to the test!
politics and all of that other bullshit goe out the window.
This may be a cliche, but it’s valid. I agree with you that it’s probably an evolved human instinct.
A Soldier will do just about anything to protect another Soldier. That’s non-negotiable. Inside the wire, Sgt Lopez and Sgt Jones may not care too much for each other. Sgt Jones may think Bush is a crook, while Sgt Lopez thinks that Michael Moore is a terrorist sympathizer. They may have heated arguments over this.
But once outside the wire, these men are ready to die for one another. And woe unto he that threatens to harm their brothers.
It’s primal. It’s absolute. It cannot be understood, only experienced.
That’s how Haditha happened.
Is this little person so threatening to those brothers that a hole had to be blown into her head to protect them?
Woe indeed. Woe to those who justify the destruction of children.
There’s a big difference between attempting to understand something, and attempting to justify it.
What happened at Haditha was an abomination. The Marines responsible must be held accountable.
They have to be hammered, even though that likely will mean capital punishment, which will only add to the body count. They have to fry for what they did.
Following your logic, since young black men in the US commit a large number of violent acts, it is fair to conflate being a black male American with being violent.
Indeed, I recall this image being thrown around for that very purpose.
Rather than attempt to understand the sinister forces which inevitably drives these men to act out, it’s so much easier to demonize them.
I imagine it’s satisfying for some to do so. I imagine it’s nice to be able to say… I’m not like “those people”.
But it’s so much harder to try and understand how it happens.
You throw a bunch of guys out in a place like Al Anbar long enough, with poor leadership and a pointless mission, atrocities aren’t just likely, they’re guaranteed.
You could crack too, under that kind of pressure, though you think you’re too righteous for such bestial behavior. You’re only human, and everyone has their breaking point. We all have the same primal demons lurking, just beneath the surface. It’s human nature.
You don’t understand what’s happening. You don’t understand because, I suspect, you haven’t ever been in that situation. So you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
Your post rises to the level of a cheap smear. And that’s fucked up, given the seriousness of the topic.
Um…you talking to me? Demonize? Demonize who? And who is guilty of a cheap shot here Mr. Motion? I attempted (unsuccessfully in your case) to find out why there is all this concern and compassion for soldiers who commit atrocities, when we have people right here in this country, white, black, purple, Brown, whatever, commiting crimes because they are caufght up in their own war zone, yet they are thrown into our prisons and forgotten about. Or put to death, then forgotten about. As I said, where’s the compassion for them? There is none because they aren’t our great, glorious “troops”. Same shit,(by the standards used to defend atrocities) different result. I’m saying these soldiers who commit atrocities should be given the samre harsh treatment that anyone who commit’s these crimes gets.
You can go on and on all day about how I don’t know whether I could blow a baby’s head of or not because I haven’t “been there” but you will still be wrong. And if showing people the results of what happens when you put a bullet in a baby’s head is a cheap smear, then you’re pretty thin skinned dude.
Thing is I knew I would get this response from you because I’ve seen plenty of your comments over at dKos, and you ain’t the most pleasant fellow in the world. Keep that bullshit over there, where it belongs.
I should have known. Now that I think of it, I wasn’t even responding to any of your comments.
I was riffing off of something Military Tracy said and you jumped in with that horrific photo and accused me of apologizing for babykillers. I should have known better than to comment in this diary, I wasn’t looking for a fight, I was merely responding to Tracy, saying… “yeah I agree with your thought”. But I should have known better.
You probably could guess that I might be sensitive to something like that, maybe you’d like it if I got angry and lashed out at you. Then you could complain to Booman and have me banned.
I’m not falling for that crap anymore.
You hate Soldiers? Fine.
You hate Cops? Whatever, dude.
You hate Jews? I don’t care.
I just want to hang out in the lounge and have fun, maybe post a diary or two. Actually, I’ve got one on the recommended list…
it’s about this guy I really like for taking an ANTI-WAR stand.
Since you bothered to read stuff I wrote on a completely different blog, maybe I could trouble you read what I’ve posted on THIS one.
But at this point, I’d be happy if you’d leave me alone. And I’d kind of appreciate it if you could keep the war pornography to yourself.
War pornography? Take a good hard look at that pornography. It’s reality.
As for your diary here? I did read it, and I left a question there for you. The same question someone else asked.
If you get banned here (unlikely) it will have nothing to do with me. Then again, as I think about it, you could always use me as your scapegoat if you do get banned.
I don’t hate anyone. What I hate is ignorance and vicousness.
My comment should appear here.
Howard Zinn was a WW2 soldier, and it was a “justified” war, but atrocities were committed by both sides none the less. Zinn has reported on a few of those atrocities that he himself participated in.
War is never a state of enlightenment, and until we realize, never justified, the human race is deeply in trouble.
“Cutting a kid in half with a .50 machine gun can be justified…”
Can it ?
The Nazis were the aggressors that began their war. The Bush regime implemented the aggression of the US against the nation of Iraq.
Those who are the primary aggressor in war establish the foundational atrocity upon which all the subsequent atrocities seek to claim legitimacy.
Next to organized religion this is perhaps the greatest scam perpetrated on the human race; that war itself is somehow a noble and honorable pursuit.
…can never, NEVER be justified. There are gray areas here, and let’s not indulge Hate America for the very things we despise about our country and come to this blog to fight against, and let’s not give Hate America a megaphone here, but let’s acknowledge that there are rules of engagement. Rules of Engagement. And if our military is not following these rules, they have become the terrorists they are purportedly fighting against. What defines terrorism, in our world, is betraying the rules of engagement to further a cause. I think.
for American Exceptionalists, especially intelligent, well-read ones, some of whom may grapple daily with a bit of “fight or flight” on general principle.
Obviously, the best answer to the question you pose would be “when would it be justifiable for another country to invade the United States, and under what circumstances would it be justifiable for those invaders to kill most of the people in your town, including your own family members, of all ages?”
In other words, an atrocity is an act which, if committed against an American by a foreigner, would be an atrocity.
But it is unfair to put such a question to an Exceptionalist, though I acknowledge that I have done it in the past.
Many Americans believe that a foreign entity was responsible for the 911 events. To what extent to holders of that belief feel empathy for the pressures the “hijackers” were under? Is there a great reluctance to condemn flying an airplane into a building full of people, even if the hijackers believed that some of those people might have been planning attacks against other countries? What if the hijackers were promised a financial benefit? Would that make their actions more understandable?
To ask such questions of an Exceptionalist is like asking a devout Christian Baptist to comment on whether this or that deed of a Hindu god, as related in the Mahabharata, is a sin or an act of Grace that will shorten, or even eliminate, his time in Purgatory.
First of all, he will tell you that his sect does not believe in Purgatory, and that there are also some theological differences between sects regarding the nature of Grace, but to answer your question, the being referred to in the Mahabharata is not “a god” nor a manifestation of God, that if he existed at all, and if the passage does indeed refer to an historical event, that like any other human being, which is all that it is possible that this “god” could be, then if before he died, he accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior, then he will go to Heaven, and if not, he will have gone to Hell, unless if he is familiar with the Mahabharata, he will point out that the events related therein occurred prior to the birth of Jesus, he will explain to you his sect’s belief regarding the disposition of souls prior to the time when it would have been possible for them to have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior.
That would, at least to me, be interesting to learn about, however, it would not answer my question, and for me to keep hammering away at the hapless Baptist would be impolite in addition to unproductive.
Not every disconnect is a bridgeable one, and the Baptist will no doubt, and with intentions good and pure, pray to Jesus that I accept Jesus as my personal savior and thereby be “saved.”
This is his faith, and no matter how intelligent or well-read he might be, the only thing that I could hope to accomplish by anything I might say to him would be to cause him to question that faith, and that is, as the saying goes, “not my job, man.”
That is the job of his own intellect and his own conscience, and nothing that I could say either should or could assume that task.
It does not matter what faith tradition I follow, if I follow any at all. I have asked him a question that his most deeply held beliefs render impossible to answer, indeed, not even an actual question. From his point of view, I am asking him to apply precepts that are real to something that is not real, a hypothetical situation to which my question is not applicable.
Thus, to ask an exceptionalist to apply the same precepts to actions of Americans against Iraqis to hypothetical invaders of the US is not a sensible question. Apples and oranges.
There are two other defense mechanisms. “Freezing” is one. Perhaps this is exemplified by those who deny any atrocities at all or maybe take it to the extent that they don’t follow any news at all.
Recently another defense mechanism was identified. (There was something written up in Psychology Today sometime around a year ago – sorry, no link.) This one is called “tend and befriend.”
Those who know without question they would not bop a smaller person and take his purse, how do they defend against this? Fight? And what form does the fight take? Imprison the perp? Patrol the streets? Arm the smaller person with a gun?
Or they take flight, move to another place? Can they breathe a sigh of relief and say, “Whew, here we are safe. We are not like them – here will be different. Is this not the thinking behind the increasing number of gated communities?
Are there no other choices?
Or can we look at the smaller person and offer medical help and companions to walk the streets and assistance with errands? And can we look at the bopper and ask how did they get where they are, that bopping a smaller person is what they could choose. Why didn’t they work for the money, like me?
Now someone might begin to explain the life of the bopper, the social conditions, the poverty, the pressure of the culture, the gangs and the drugs, the inadequate schools, the lack of jobs or the level of pay… do they excuse the bopper of responsibility and accountability? No.
It is our ability to empathize that allows us to bridge our own experiences and our absolutes – to put ourselves in another’s shoes – to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” That leads to other possibilities and other choices in how we respond and what we do. Isn’t it our understanding through empathy that writers seek, especially when they write stories about other ways to live and view the world, other cultures and tribes?
The most important, imo, is we can look to our own complicity in the perp and victim coming together – our contribution to the atrocities.
ExxonMobile, Chevron, et al. lack their own private military. Their wealth is in their reserves which are recognizably limited. Our military is occupying Iraq for the oil.
How are all of us connected to this occupation – complicit with these atrocities? We are not powerful corporate executives or board members. We didn’t even vote for this administration and we have protested this use of our military. We are all oil consumers.
Can we say the bopper of the smaller person has done a wrong? Yes. Can we say those who kill innocents, even in a war zone are wrong? Absolutely. What do we do with the bopper? What do we do with those who have done a wrong? Isn’t that what legal structures are all about?
Imo, the only ones in a position to make a judgment of those who commit atrocities are those who do not use oil, oil products, food or clothing or any other item transported using oil, electricity…but they are not online.
One of the reasons that people seek to justify the man who directly commits the atrocity is, as I said, part of a larger entity which includes all of us.
That any humans are capable of such things is a reflection and a condemnation not only of the culture, the nation, that produced the perpetrator, but of all of us as a species.
And “flight” from one’s species is a difficult concept to swallow.
A better way to express it, I think, is flight TO the hope of evolution, of advancement, so that NO human would be capable of atrocity, that EVERY human would have moral absolutes, lines that he will not, does not possess the capacity, to cross, regardless of the circumstances.
And the first step to that, in my opinion, is to acknowledge that most humans DO have those absolutes, and the second is honest self-examination, if one has any doubt about one’s ownself. If you (not you personally, the general you) believe that you might be capable of committing an atrocity, then this self-knowledge can help you take especial care to avoid any situation where that capability might be utilized.
If, on the other hand, you know that you are not capable of such a thing, regardless of circumstance, accepting that will be an invaluable aid to you in your “fight or flight” battle. It is extremely important, and I should have included this in the original article, that being incapable of committing an atrocity, having moral absolutes, does not mean that one has any claim to moral superiority, rather that one is “normal,” since most people, as I stated in a previous comment, live their whole lives without committing atrocities, and most people do have those moral absolutes, those lines that one will not cross.
And that will, in turn, be an invaluable help in acknowledging what lines one IS crossing, to what extent one is complicit, to what extent is one participating, profiting from, atrocities that are directly carried out by others, funded by one’s own labor.
If we begin by recognizing those moral absolutes, and resist the “fight” instinct to justify not only the direct commission of the atrocity itself, but our own complicity in it, then we are on our way to “flight,” not FROM our own species, but to improvement of it.
Eric Voegelin, a twentieth century philosoper, said something to the effect that “we bear our citizenship in a country as a condition of our human actualization.” You are making the same point; our citizenship in an America that now tortures has become a terrible condition in actualizing our humanity. How can we accept that this is being done in our name? Not very fucking well if we take our citizenship seriously. Fairly simply if we think of ourselves as subjects to be protected by Big Brother.
When we speak about how human beings behave in war, I think we have to proceed with a lot of caution. The line between bravery and atrocity is razor thin. Too many times, one only knows the difference in the seconds after a decision has been made or an action taken. War chews people up in every way that is possible to be chewed: physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. It affects victors and vanquished, it chews whether the cause is just or unjust. But if the cause is just, the psychic wounds can be assuaged with a recovery of meaning. WWII, which in the Pacific was the cause for more American atrocities than Vietnam and Iraq put together, lent itself to that recovery of meaning. Vietnam, and Iraq, strip theat possibility of meaning from those who are forced into terrible situations to bear the burden of their decisions and actions without the benefit of knowing the justice of the end they were sent to achieve.
Let me end this with a story. A friend of mine is one of the bravest people I have ever seen. While others were safely behind cover shooting blindly at muzzle flashes, he dragged three comrades to safety getting shot seven times while doing so. Understand this, not three people all at once. Three trips into a hell that none of the rest of us would go into. Three brothers dragged back. Imagine what it took to do what he did the second and third time. But he killed a little kid doing all this. Is that an atrocity? It was to him, right up to the second he died after he got our third friend back. The atrocity to me then and now was that we were fucking there in the first place.
I have never seen war up close. I have only seen it in my husband’s eyes and read it in between the very few limited lines he wrote home. I used to hear it in his cracking voice but he started covering that up and then towards the end of his tour I don’t even think he had to do that…….he just went sort of numb and said that after that his goal to get through the day was just to do everything that he could so that nobody died that day.
Thank you for the Eric Voegelin quote. It explains completely the fire I feel in my heart today.
If I have called the “fight or flight” struggle a wrenching one, you have given us all the opportunity to experience just what that means.
You say that you have never seen war up close. And in a sense, you are correct. US activities in Iraq do not constitute war, rather a killing and looting spree. But you are incorrect in saying you have not seen it up close. Any person with a loved one directly involved in those activities is seeing it up close.
And every person in that situation is forced by it to confrontations with self that most never have to go through, although all could benefit from it, devastating and difficult though it is (see my reply to tampopo).
The marriage relationship perhaps offers the clearest illustration of the inclusion of self with another.
The Koran says of spouses, They are a garment for you and you are a garment to them. (2:187)
There is no luxury there of built-in distance, as in tampopo’s reference to the universality of complicity, and flight is as flight from oneself.
So while it is painful to watch your struggle, by sharing it with earth residents, you give a great gift, and for that, every person who follows it, and learns from it, and is perhaps helped by it to make their own painful way to self-knowledge, wage their own battle of “fight or flight,” is greatly indebted to you.
For years I have dreamed of creating a web site devoted to the concept of “collective responsibility.” We all are covered with blood by the atrocities of our fellow citizens.
But I’m scared of this debate here, though I keep reading it as it develops. I’m really threatened by all of this. It makes it extra hard for me to understand, to read. This is a VERY painful diary.
I think DTF is courageous in his arguments. I’m horrified about how they slice the guts out of some good people here. I’m sorry they don’t seem more clearly expressed, although I suspect that I can’t read clearly due to shock.
FWIW, this is a good example of what the Internet is about.
But I believe what you have described is the functioning of a civilized democratic society dealing with real problems and seeking real truths instead of opting out for isolating ourselves, which for some reason always eventually seems to lead to some kind of war or physically bodily hurting each other in some way. The minds that seem to be attracted to the Booman Tribune tend to astound me. Sorting through the loss of most of America’s recent human rights gains, coming to terms with those loses, processing the emotional energy around all of these very very difficult facts we have chosen to face together, all this creates a platform within society. We carry all of our processing around with us daily, we share it with family and friends and the boy bagging our groceries. Human beings are a lot more emotionally synergystic than most of us would ever care to admit to. We seek internal peace and the self actualization that comes from resolving conflict. It is why I stay active no matter how evil the war debate can become….the harsh debate is about how hurt we all are at what we are witnessing that we are losing in our lives. If America will not act humane and decent and give its citizens a platform of humanity and decency to all share and stand upon, then we must carry those torches alone for ourselves or lose the best part of ourselves. By daring to carry the torch we will also build a new base for humanity and decency that others feeling that loss can also share with us. Through debate we blaze trails that others can choose to follow if they wish. We blaze trails away from War seeking peace! We will heal together and become energized to carry our torches. We grow real energy muscles, though it all happens very imperfectly. I do what I can to remain brave when the shit starts flying sometimes…….it’s only shit, it washes off with soap and water. Blood though on the other hand tends to stain mens souls and destroy lives long after the killing is over. I have never been killed discovering that I was narrow minded and ill informed about something (I have actually grown from discovering these things and felt embraced by my fellow man), but I think a lot of people have died refusing to accept that perhaps they were narrow minded and ill informed about something.
on the internets.
I think many people will be tempted to say to you, “I just don’t know what I would do in your position,” and go to bed, grateful that they are not in your position, and therefore do not have to fight that battle.
They are wrong, and I think that because of your position, you understand that they are wrong. Sooner or later, they will have to decide. Even the decision to push it under the rug is a decision. At least it counts as one from the victims’ point of view.
You do not have that luxury, of pushing it under the rug, of pretending it is not there, of pretending it is not what it is, of dressing it up in a new suit and calling it something else.
That battle you fight must be fought by every human being, because when we take away the trappings and the borders and the tribal affilations, that is all we are. And that battle is one that each of us has to fight. We can do it today, we can put it off till tomorrow, but it is not going anywhere, it is not going to become less our battle.
Your position is, in the final analysis, the same position we are all in. And the decision that each of us makes will mean the difference between life and death for somebody, possibly ourselves.
is the best possible one, or the worst possible one, I am leaning toward best, because obviously I do not see a benefit for anybody in beating around the bush. (no pun intended. really.)
And I thank you for acknowledging that it is the arguments, the hard questions themselves, and not me, that are slicing peoples’ guts out.
Those questions, those arguments, like the slicing of guts, are beasts that humans have had to face long before I was born.
Moral integrity is not a personal quality that in time of war bursts to the fore fully formed like Athena from the head of Zeus. Moral character is determined throughout life by the decisions we make every moment.
When I was very young, I would agree with anybody in order to be liked and accepted. I had no sense of self at eleven, at twelve, upon which courage and decency could be built.
At sixteen, I became aware of suffering and injustice through the Civil Rights Movement; it was the obligation that this knowledge thrust on me that forced examination of my moral courage.
I stood with a group of kids at school, and one of them told a racist joke. I froze. Some laughed appreciatively. Some laughed nervously. No one objected.
I went home and cried for my cowardice. I decided then that the most precious thing I have is my character. I could go along to get along, feeling more and more worthless, and the more I despised myself, the greater the necessity would grow to be agreeable. I would end up so low and despicable that only abject groveling would make me acceptable to my “friends”, who could not possibly like me for myself, because I had no self.
I have never stood silent again.
Every day we make choices. Some will strengthen our moral fibre like a body builder doing reps. Others chip away at our sense of personal decency. Slipping those few extra pennies into our pocket when a clerk gives back too much change is the measure of how much we value honesty and fairness. Lying to our intimates to avoid a hassle weighs the worth of our relationships.
Atrocities are at the far end of the moral integrity scale. How can we stand against the powerful forces that enable them if we have not spent years practicing the small stuff?
We cannot wait for the extremity of war to test our mettle.
that you so eloquently display here.
Thank you, Tracy. That means a lot to me. I have such admiration for you. You stand up straight and look reality in the face (and occasionally spit in his eye)no matter how painful. Because of your screen name, I see you in uniform, shining with a thousand glittering metals for valour and courage and heart.
Those tears were not the tears of a coward, but the tears of a child saying good bye to innocence, the tears of a woman being born.
Reading your story gave me tears, and I can see you, I can see the other children, I can hear the joke, I can’t tell it word for word, but it doesn’t matter, because I see that child look at you, little susanw, on her last day of being little susanw, and he looks in your eyes, and even today, he sees those eyes, and he cries too.
Some people do not experience that ephiphany, that turning point, until they are quite old, and tragically, some never do.
But unlike atrocity, we all have the capacity to shed those tears, to meet that fight or flight head on, and fly to the land of the Miep Gies gene, which is indeed a better place.
Your story, your message, makes for a very good argument against brutality. I will even call it an unassailable argument against it.
Exploiting the capacity of some human beings to commit atrocities is indeed an atrocity unto itself.
Declaring a cause to be “just” is a time-tested and nearly fool-proof method of exploiting that capacity of some human beings, frequently justified by the fact that other human beings are committing atrocities, so we will go and commit some against, maybe these other perpetrators, maybe against other people entirely, but because the perps we send are “ours,” (“ours,” for my purposes here referring to the side of “the speaker,” whoever he or she may be, or the “justifier,” if you prefer) the atrocities are justified. Because our cause is just. And one of the key ingredients of a just cause invariably involves “interests,” which invariably involves the generation of additional revenues to certain key beneficiaries.
Thus, atrocities committed by “our” side are justifiable in direct proportion to the extent of that potential revenue, and if that potential revenue is high enough, atrocities committed by “our” side cease to be atrocities, and become acts of bravery, because if “our” side does it, by definition it cannot be an atrocity. If “their” side does it? Of course it is an atrocity. You can’t compare apples and oranges. (You can, however, convert both to the currency of your choice and put it in the bank).
Excellent post phronesis. I can also relate to your ending story, having been in similar situations, though I never witnessed an event where an individual displayed as much courage as your friend. From your description and mention of muzzle flashes I’m thinking maybe this was in Viet Nam and happened at night.
But I am curious about the kid who was killed and why he or she was in the vicinity of the firefight? Was he or she a participant or was he or she killed by a stray round or what?
I’ve seen a lot of innocents killed, most unintentionally but others not so and witnessed the aftermath of a large scale atrocity that took place in an AO adjacent to our own at that time – early 1968. At the time I must have been numb to most everything as I don’t recall having any serious misgivings. Actually some of it was actually tucked deep in my memory and only years later after locating and becoming reacquainted with a buddy from those times he brought up those stories, did I recall those events. Later on, with me it was nearly two decades, it hits one like a rock.
I agree with you totally. The worst atrocity of all was us being there in the first place.
Thanks. I think this was just one of hundreds, maybe thousands, of “incidents.”
Dusk…edge of a village…..don’t know why Bob shot the kid, just that he said he did as he was sobbing about it and dying…..I think that he saw movement and fired. Who wouldn’t? I know you get this: one sees, hears, smells or imagines a threat….shoot it. Figure it out after. At least you’re alive to figure it out.
War sucks, but consider this: there is horror and incredible beauty and humanity at its purest and most precious in what Bob did.
are never cast aside, they are never forgotten. If they were, there would be no PTSD, no men and women putting bullets into their own bodies in an attempt to atone for their sins. All wars, in all lands, have victims and survivors, on all sides. Are there bad people who do bad things in bad situations with no remorse, no regret, no subsequent self-loathing? Of course, and those people deserve condemnation. Are there good people who do bad things in bad situations with subsequent unbearable remorse, regret, and self-loathing? Again, I say, of course, but here is where it gets muddy, because for many, condemnation of these people is and will always be unthinkable. To suggest that those who would not be quick to condemn have questionable ethics and a lack of moral absolutes is nonsensical, because both their willingness to forgive, understand and dispense compassion, and their unwillingness to judge, are part of the very definitions of ethics and morality.
In a war zone, some must go insane to be sane in such an insane environment. One must never underestimate the power of one’s desire to preserve one’s life, and the lives of others, in an insane environment, and to compare the power of that desire to the power of the desire to, say, rob someone rather than go to work, while living in a civilized and sane environment, is oversimplification in its purest form.
I believe that there is room for compassion all around, but I understand why some could believe there is not. These are not easy things to ponder. However, until such time as powerful men in powerful places stop sending powerless men and women to foreign lands to fulfill their political agendas, you will find me in “bizarro” world, where there are often no absolutes; where, quite often, forgiveness, understanding, compassion and remembrance are the orders of the day; and where the chain is a chain of compassion for all, made stronger by the very links of which it consists.
this question on atrocities committed by Americans against people in other countries, operating in an “official” capacity as agents and implementors of the will and desires of the American people (or as agents of warlords who hold the American people hostage and in need of immediate liberation), whichever view one holds is irrelevant.
Because this same struggle, these same questions of moral absolutes, rejection or justifier of atrocity, is faced every day by people whose loved ones commit atrocities quite apart and independent from any officialdom or “government” paycheck.
Consider, for example, the mother, the father, brother, sister, of a man who rents out his little daughter for money.
Each must confront themselves, some may be obliged to acknowledge that this action crosses a line that they would never cross, could not cross. Oh, but he is sick, addicted to drugs. For some, maybe all of his family members, they might still search their souls for years, and still come up against that wall of their own moral absolute. They would not even take the chance, to become that sick, it is precisely to avoid such sickness that they have taken great pains to not become addicted to drugs. And this they did, perhaps because even stealing from each other, or from friends, might be a moral absolute for them, and perhaps they are in an environment where this happens a lot, they have seen first hand that the illness of addiction can lead people to stealing from family and friends. And because that is a line they will not cross, they did not even approach it.
But their brother did. He crossed the line, and learned, and they learned with him, that he did not have that moral absolute, he was capable of stealing from all of them, and he did it, and now he is renting out the body of his little daughter.
Those family members have a fight or flight struggle that is, in its essence, not much different from that of someone whose loved one has committed atrocities against people in another country, acting in that official capacity.
Maybe some will, after much painful introspection, realize that they too might have the capacity of renting out their own little child.
Others might be obliged to acknowledge that they simply would not.
Both must wage that battle of fight or flight. This does not mean that they abandon their brother in every sense. But if his action is against their own moral absolutes, they will be obliged, when asked to drive the child to a hotel that she might be the agent of the brother receiving money, it is very probable that flight may win out, and they may refuse, and may even refuse to allow him to drive the child there himself.
Some may give him money for the drugs, thinking this is the best way to protect the child. Others may refuse to either give him money or facilitate the rental of the child in any way, and tell him they will give money to a treatment center, if he will go and complete the program and treat his illness of addiction. Especially if he prefers not to seek treatment, one or more family members may choose flight, refuse to justify the atrocity on any grounds, and even go so far as to involve local authorities, and seek legal custody of the child, as well as a restraining order to keep him from even seeing her, knowing that their actions could result in the incarceration of their brother.
Whatever they do, however their own fight or flight battles turn out, the brother will, as long as he lives, carry his atrocity with him, and so will each member of his family. His atrocity will be their atrocity, and it will most of all be the little girl’s atrocity.
Even if the brother seeks treatment for his illness, and stays off drugs for the rest of his life, and no matter how much he suffers for what he has done, and no matter how much each member of his family suffers for it, it will be the little girl who suffers most, as long as she lives. Fight or flight…
when reading your harrowing analogy was, “Well, why is this man addicted to drugs? What brought him to this state? What has driven him to do this? Is he inherently evil, or was he once a seemingly moral person? What could possibly make a man DO this?” Very rarely do people spontaneously become drug addicts and rent their child’s sexuality; if this was the case it would certainly simplify the situation a hundredfold. I believe it is imperative to acknowledge and at least attempt to understand the forces that spawn this type of behavior, for that is the only way to prevent said behavior from occuring again and again. I do not believe that doing so diminishes the suffering of the victim, in fact, quite the opposite. Ignoring those forces diminishes the victim’s suffering tremendously by potentailly allowing it to happen again.
The second thought I had relates to the nature of your analogy. The focus of your diary, at least initially, is American atrocities, namely war atrocities. In acknowledging this, your analogy is missing a powerful, vital and often overlooked element that is key to understanding the atrocities of war: fear of death. Sustained fear of losing one’s life. Sustained fear of seeing your friends die. Sustained fear of never seeing your wife again. Sustained fear of never seeing your newborn.
Now, I am quite convinced that you are more than capable of producing an analogy that includes this aspect, but I say, “Why use another analogy, when you’ve got me?” I am a living, breathing analogy. I am the daughter of a committer of atrocities. I have defended a committer of atrocities. By your definition, I am an “atocity apologist”. I want to repent. I want to “remove my amulet”, “turn in my code ring” and “walk away”. If I am to subscribe to your belief system, first I must understand what exactly it is I must do. In plain words please, DuctapeFatwa, what would you have me do?
is one that each person must go through quite independently of, though simultaneously with, acknowledgment of the various methods employed to exploit the capacity for atrocity that exists in some human beings.
What you are talking about is just as difficult, and if I have minimized that, or failed to acknowledge it enough, it is a fault of expression and not of opinion.
Those “forces” as you call them, are nothing but another atrocity. This means that for someone in your situation, there is a “double whammy.” First there is the pain and anguish of acknowledging that your father did something that perhaps you know you could not do, regardless of the circumstances. Or maybe you see the capacity also in yourself. Either way, in addition to wrestling with all those demons, you are also faced with that other atrocity: that other individuals deliberately set up a petri dish, with your father in it, knowing that there would be at least a chance that he would have the bacteria they were looking for.
He could have lived all his life with that bacteria, with that capacity, and if it were never exploited, he, his victims, and his family, would all be winners.
Now let us suppose, and please understand, I am not intending to project this on you personally, or suggest that this is the case with you, rather that it is the case with some people – so let us suppose that the individuals who deliberately sought to activate this capacity in your father, were people who you trusted and revered almost as much as you do your father, albeit in a different way. Maybe they are individuals that you have never even met, but your feelings of trust and admiration for them are part of the most basic teaching that your culture inculcated in you. You were taught to respect them, for what they represented, namely another larger entity of which you are a part, and all your life were taught to be proud to be a part of it. It was, you were taught, the best in the world, and these people whom you never met love that entity, and are committed to protecting it, and protecting you, and represent any number of lofty and fine concepts.
And now you are forced to acknowledge that they have committed an atrocity every bit as repugnant, every bit as directly in violation of your own moral absolutes, as that committed by your father.
For some people, it will be hard to say which is the most difficult and agonizing – whether you yourself have the capacity or not!
Other people may not be so surprised or shocked about that other atrocity committed by people they never met. To return to our family with the brother with drug addiction, it is possible that the whole family grew up knowing all about that atrocity. They saw it committed every day, it was impossible not to, it formed such a large part of their environment. So that even from childhood, they have had to try to overcome it, maybe even then some of them began that dialogue with themselves: could I? would I be capable of – any number of atrocities that happened on their street every day.
That does not make it any easier when it turns out that their brother had the bacteria, and grew it. As those people they never met hoped he would. They have not ever had that sense of admiration and reverence for those people, they have never had any illusions about what those people represent. But that does not mean they love their brother any less, or suffer any less than you. It is the same suffering, just with some different elements in that particular aspect. They do not have to decide whether to fight or flee those people they never met. To them, fighting is not possible because they are too weak. Fleeing is not possible because they have never considered themselves either part of that entity, nor protected by it. So the only fight possible is to avoid it, like the monster in the video game you are not very good at, or have somehow lost all your powers. Their flight is a pre-existing condition. Fleeing from it is all you know, but fleeing in a different sense than you (representing the other example, not you personally).
Now we could add a third example, someone who learns that her father committed an atrocity, and she is not the least bit surprised or shocked, or if she is, it is not a great trauma, because her relationship with her father is either non-existent, bad, or slight. And maybe she has great reverence for those petri dish atrocity people she never met, or maybe she doesn’t. Her struggle with flight or flight, my point, and I do have one, will be different, maybe than yours. But it will not be easier. And there will be some common elements.
Now you are asking me all these things about what you “should” do. What I would have you do.
If it were up to me, I would never have any of it happen! But it is not now and never has been in my power to have none of it happen. I feel obliged to apologize for this. I have not been an effective enough terrorist through my improbably long life to have rid the world of atrocity. It is I who must repent for that, if any repenting is to be done. 🙂
Nor does it fall to you to repent for your father’s deeds, no matter how terrible they were. Unless you opened the door and handed the little girl to him so he could take her to the hotel where the man with money waited, you have nothing to repent.
Even if you have concluded that you also have the capacity for committing an atrocity, that you have no moral absolutes, “repent” would not be the verb I would choose. In that case you might want to take extra care to avoid petri dishes, or you might consider the question of moral absolutes, and if you don’t have any, whether you might like to develop some, and if so, what would they be.
And when the subject is personal moral absolutes, and the personal struggle with either having them, or not, within the context of a loved one who has committed an atrocity, there is only one person who can tell you “what to do,” and that is YOU!
You are the only one who can decide whether to fight or flee, as well as the nature of your flight. Flight does not mean that you do not help your father get treatment, if such might be possible. It does not mean that you cease to love your father. Flight means that you reject the atrocity itself, you reject the lack of moral absolutes, and the petri dish and those people you never met that were supposed to be good and noble but instead turned out to be seekers and commanders of atrocity. And that flight can take all kinds of forms. It can be a completely internal flight, distancing, rejection, a turning in of the code ring. It can mean, for some people who have the resources, a physical flight, an airplane ride to another place. That is up to you.
As I said in the original post, in my opinion, the best kind of flight is a flight TO an improvement, whether it is internal, on an airplane, or both. Either way, while you may have to go through that struggle alone, once you know where you are, and where you want to be, if what you choose is flight, whether spiritual or physical or both, flight to that better place, you will not be alone. You will not be the first person to make that journey, to take that flight, to reach for that better, atrocity-free code ring 🙂 Your story has made me cry, and you are in my prayers. If you are still reading this old man’s ramblings, I suspect that you may be incapable of atrocity, and quite possibly possessed of a supernatural patience, and should consider that as you plan your life and career.
I made a “flight to improvement” by choosing not to judge, and it made me a better person. I’ll stay in “Bizarro” world, wallowing in “the uncertainty of my own moral absolutes and lack thereof”, and I’ll leave the judgement to others, of which there are many. Thank you for your prayers and for a spirited, passionate debate.
Amen.
Believing, as I do, in the power of words, I would say that one of the biggest atrocities committed by us civilians, has been to avoid terms like “atrocity” or “illegal invasion”, “illegal occupation” and, of course, “war crimes” with respect to US actions in Iraq. Thanks for the reminder… we all need it.
something to the effect of anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Obviously, I don’t completely agree.
And obviously, in this case, at least, I am right. 🙂 To repeat myself from a previous comment, most people do not commit atrocities, most people, thankfully do have those moral absolutes, those lines they will not cross. They cannot made to commit atrocities, and they do not even allow themselves to be in a position where they might be expected, ordered, or encouraged to commit them. There are plenty of people who believe absurdities who have not signed up for the crusades. There will be many reasons for this, and among those reasons will be that the individual does not wish to commit atrocities, even though they may believe all kinds of absurdities. 😀
I have, however, on several occasions, commented on the phenomenon you mention. How even those who express opposition to US activities in Iraq, for example, refer to people defending their homes from an invading horde as “insurgents,” or “terrorists.” The entire vocabulary, the “frame” if you will, of the Pentagon is automatically adopted by the entire range of opinions on every subject from Iraq to the 911 events.
If I assert that your brother has disobeyed me, and destroy his home and kill his family, and you oppose my actions on the grounds that he did not in fact disobey me…
Given that there are, unfortunately, some human beings who do have the capacity to commit atrocities, one can hardly imagine a more ideal breeding ground than a culture in which those opposed to the “war” base their opposition on the above.
Certainly it is agreed that the surviving victims of “attrocities” are no less deserving of attention to their needs. One would assume that their unrecognized need is, in fact, greater. But let it not be forgotten that at least some of these attrocities are committed by 18 year old individuals pushed into these circumstances by a society that offers them less with each passing day. A society that seeks to send many opportunities overseas, a society that seeks to greatly reduce the ranks of the middle class. Now you may believe that in making these comments I have become an apologist for those making policy. Be assured that I am not. But I can remember, quite clearly, that at age 18 I was wholly without direction and readily subject to the influence of others. (Fortunately for me, I was eventually set on an appropriate course.) That does not excuse all actions, but let us not forget where the greatest evil lies in these transactions.
whether and how strongly one believes in it will definitely be a factor in how that person confronts the subject of atrocity, whether to reject it or defend it.
The defense of the perpetrator as a helpless moral cripple, with no sense of right or wrong, much less lines that he will or will not cross, is a very good one in its way. In fact, in my opinion, the best legal defense for any American who is brought to account, even for a scapegoat show trial, is that the defendant did not know he was doing anything wrong.
While this may be a helpful temporary measure for those who find the question too hard to face, at some point those who seek refuge in this argument will be faced with the rather unsettling implications for the security of their nation, if its defense is the responsibility of people who don’t know right from wrong.
We are, after all, talking about human beings, each of whom has free will, and each of whom deserves the basic respect one would hope we would accord to all human beings, namely that they are capable of making their own decisions based on their own moral values, moral absolutes, or lack thereof, and therefore, while no one opposed to atrocities would suggest that he who commands their commission should not be accountable for his actions, it is not fair to the actual perpetrators to deny them that same respect.
(An even better defense, again, from the point of view of purely legal consideration, is that he was not, in fact doing anything wrong, that any act committed by an American cannot be be wrong, or an atrocity, on the grounds that such is a fundamental value, and the basis of US foreign policy. See my reply to BooMan above)
It is apparent that you have never been a poor, directionless 18 year old. How fortunate for you.
I thought I acknowledged and addressed your point of view, and its popular and deceptive pseudo-comfort, both in the original article, and in my reply to you. But my own words are not always the best.
These, I think, may be better:
By this response you have confirmed how fortunate you have been. And so should all 18 year olds be as wise as you were at that age.
You’re Either With DTF, or Against Him.
It occurs to me that if you replace “atrocity apologist” with “terrorist,” and sign this essay in the name of George W. Bush, a lot of readers here would be fooled into thinking it was genuine (except, of course, for the big words and complex sentence structures.)
Isn’t “You’re either with us, or with the enemy” precisely the argument that got the world into this horrific mess that also goes by the name War on Terror?
Bingo. You’re absolutely right.
when we practice extremism.
That is one of the points of the article. For some people, there are moral absolutes that do not have nuances, that cannot be negotiated.
Those moral absolutes, when present, will not be the same for every individual. For example, Bush’s position is, you are either with US policy or you are against it, and therefore with those who oppose it, and those who oppose it are terrorists.
Someone else might have different moral absolutes, things that they absolutely will not do because to them, they are simply wrong, and there are no circumstances or nuances involved.
For some, that might be stealing from a friend or family member. For others, it might be rape, or molesting a child, or murdering one. Others might be absolutely opposed to torture, someone else, murdering anyone of any age. I could go on, but you get the idea. Some people, most people, in fact, do have some moral absolutes, lines that they will not cross, period.
Theoretically, someone might have agreeing or disagreeing with me, or someone else, as a moral absolute, I do not think it is likely, however, generally peoples’ moral absolutes have to do with more basic things, and a moral absolute based on agreeing or not with an individual could conflict with those other more basic ones.
This is the problem with the Bush doctrine. If you are with the US, and US policies include atrocities, and you are opposed to atrocities, you have a major fight or flight conflict right there!
And while I would consider it if possible, even more absurd for anyone to have as a moral absolute about agreeing with me or not, the same problem would arise.
Suppose you have a moral absolute that you will not agree with me. But you also have as a moral absolute that everyone should have equal protection under the law, regardless of race, creed or sexual preference. Well, I happen to agree with that. In fact, I would say that I personally do count it among my moral absolutes. So someone who is committed to disagreeing with me, without any exceptions, is likely to run into conflicts all over the place!
My first response:
“I made DTF say ‘Bush was right.’ Ha-ha! ROFL”
My second response:
“Huh? Was this post supposed to be … comprehensible?”
My third and final response:
I am not committed as a moral absolute to disagreeing with you. In fact, if you search your memory (or the archives) you will find at least two instances in which I quite emphatically agreed with you (your diabetes diary, and a thread about children feeling safe with strangers in other countries.) Given this history between us, which may not have been as memorable to you, your implication that someone who criticizes the rhetorical structure of this one diary is “committed to disagreeing” with you in the same way that you are “committed to rejecting atrocities” is either nonsensical or quite unfair. In fact, your saying so rather hurt my feelings.
Moral absolutes, when they are presented inside a closed and intimidating rhetorical fist, are no way to discuss the world with your friends. What’s more, by lumping together those who commit atrocities with those who struggle painfully in print to wrap their minds and their belief systems around the reality of war — people for whom your shorthand is “atrocity apologists” — you have NOT demonstrated “flight to improvement” in any sense. Only flight away from the rest of us. Good luck with that, and thanks for nuttin’.
to you. I will attempt to explain it more clearly.
The Bush doctrine, either you agree with US policies or you are the enemy, poses a dilemma for individuals who do have moral absolutes regarding torture, kidnapping, and various other atrocities.
A person who may wish with all their heart to be loyal to the Bush doctrine will face a conflict.
That is the problem with a moral absolute that says in essence, agree or disagree with anybody.
I did not intend to suggest that you, or anybody, has a moral absolute related to agreeing with me. I used that only as an example of how such an absolute would not be practical, and would, like the Bush doctrine, inevitably lead to a conflict for individuals who had other moral absolutes regarding more basic things.
I am very sorry that I did not make clear that I used that as an analogy only, and did not intend it in any literal sense, I used it only because you made a reference in your post, against or with DTF, and my intention was to demonstrate that such a notion would be as impractical as the Bush doctrine, for people who do have pre-existing moral absolutes.
My use of it as a figurative was in no way intended to suggest that you or anyone else would have such a notion, on the contrary, again, I picked up on your phrase only to demonstrate the absurdity of it, as well as the Bush doctrine.
Moral absolutes are by nature, somewhat closed. They are, after all, absolutes. Lines which an individual will not cross. Not everyone has them, and those who do have them do not all have the same ones.
Are they an appropriate topic for discussion with friends or anybody else?
Like the moral absolutes themselves, that is not a question on which everyone would have the same view.
And yes, it is a struggle, that is the point of the article.
Suppose someone is opposed to torture, for example, as a personal moral absolute. Meaning that that individual absolutely will not torture, under any circumstances, ever.
Now let us suppose that that same person wishes with all their heart, to be part of an entity that tortures.
You are correct that the struggle of that individual will be a painful one. That is what I was writing about in the first place. And whether that individual will fight or flee is a very individual matter.
And whether if he flees, if he chooses his moral absolute against torture over his strong desire to be part of a particular entity, yes, he will be by definition flying away from those who fight to justify, be apologists for torture, those who relinquish that moral absolute against torture for the sake of being part of that larger entity.
No matter what stopgap measures he tries, even if he tries not talking about it or thinking about it, sooner or later that conflict is going to come up again.
Like someone who has an infection, and only takes a couple of antibiotics, feels better, and throws away the bottle, that person is going to see that infection again.
If that individual, after considerable introspection and inner struggle, truly opposes torture as a moral absolute, he does not belong to that larger entity, no matter how much he might want to, no matter how much he might like the jackets, and the code ring. He simply does not belong there, that will make itself evident, to himself, and to that larger entity as well.
This is not something that you or I can decide for someone else, whether we discuss it or not.
This is an integral part of who that person is, and only he can say whether he has any lines he will not cross, and if so, what they are.
And only he can decide what “flight” means for him, and whether it will be toward an improvement.
Quite often a perpetrator is simultaneously a victim, and though this does not excuse the commission of atrocities, it does somewhat complicate the simplistic judgmentalism frequently encountered when discussing what actions may be deemed justifiable in extreme circumstances.
As someone who’s worked with cult victims in the past, I’ve see firsthand the effects of psychic manipulation, (thought reform), and the kind of weaponized ignorance such propagandizing can produce; turning otherwise innocent people into seriously depraved and brutal individuals capable of unimaginable crimes.
I can always condemn the acts of atrocity, but, in truth, I cannot always condemn outright some of the perpetrators, (though I do always want to prevent them from continuing to commit atrocities even if I can’t condemn them personally).
Certainly all people of good will will condemn the action of atrocity.
Holding the perpetrator accountable, should, in my opinion, benefit the victims, or their survivors as much as possible. Hurling him into a dungeon would do nobody any good.
That does not hold him accountable, it merely provides the psychological equivalent of refined white sugar to that segment of society who actually dares to condemn the atrocity itself.
He already lives in his own emotional dungeon, and he will until he dies.
Society’s business is to hold him accountable, not destroy whatever is left of him. Society has a responsibility to his victims, and their families and friends, and so does he.
There is a story about Gandhiji, that a man came to him, a Hindu, during the horrors of the Partition time, (yes the East also had its Holocaust), and said, I have killed a Muslim child, how can I ever redeem myself?
Go an find a child whose parents have been killed, Gandhiji told him (in these circumstances that was comparable to saying to someone today, go and find me an empty soft drink can) and take the child home, and raise him as your son – and as a Muslim.
Unfortunately this wisdom has not made much of a way into judicial systems in either east or west, however, in my opinion, it should, as it is necessary if any society wishes to attain a comfortable level of civilization.
I have, we all have, probably spoken with perpetrators of atrocity in VietNam, who did subsequently adopt a VietNamese child, they could not go and find the little relative of their victim, perhaps, even Gandhiji realized the impossibility of that, but they could, like the remorseful Hindu, “go and find a (VietNamese) child whose parents have been killed.”
These are examples of perpetrators holding themselves accountable, since nobody else was going to do it.
In my opinion, anybody who commits even the atrocity of unlawfully entering another country, with the intent to do harm to life and property, and armed with the weapons with which to do so, has automatically incurred a debt to that other country that they can never repay.
That does not mean that they cannot try. That does not mean that they cannot be kept in a humane and structured, supervised setting, where he cannot do further harm, and put to useful, productive, and lucrative work, which either directly, or in proceeds, will go to the people of that country.
The percentage of their earnings, for the rest of their lives, that will go to their victims should depend on the extent of their atrocities. Obviously, for someone who has committed many atrocities, more than they can even remember or count, all that he earns for the rest of his life, save for the costs of the basic necessities of that life, belongs to the families of his victims.
This would also apply to commanders and authors of atrocities, who sit in fine chairs, far from the scene, and stuff their pockets with the revenues generated by atrocities.
If his only atrocity consisted of entering with the intent to harm life and property, and he in fact harmed neither, it would be fair to take only a percentage of his earnings to send to the victims.
I don’t necessarily agree that all people of good will will condemn the action of atrocity. Many who believe themselves to be people of good will simply change the definition of atrocity when it suits them in order to avoid calling a fellow (religionist or countryman or partisan or race member) guilty of perpetrating atrocity.
Such behavior is frequently referred to as “denial”, and will very often have disastrous consequences as it did when the first the German people and then a large part of the rest of the world refused to believe that Hitler was as monstrous as he was. same with the pedophile priests in the RCC; same with the supporters of the Bush regime, of Pinochet, of Pol Pot, and the like.
Many of us assume that because we are “men of goodwill” we cannot possibly be fooled into supporting someone who commits atrocity. So, when someone does, we change the definition to support our own self. This particular mechanism of self-delusion represents a common thread running throughout the course of human history and is usually to be seen most clearly when reviewing humankind’s atrocities committed against itself. The very foundational myth that war is a noble and honorable pursuit is itself the ultimate example of this self-delusional posturing.
I wish I could give you 1000 4’s.
Once again we are at the cross road that history will repeat itself. Is this another indication of how easily governments and people fall into the same patterns of perpetrator — victim — bystander — that gripped Nazi Germany. Was the events surrounding the Papacy election of Pope Benedict XVI a foreshadowing of the future discussions about atrocities and the military.
A recap: To recap: a 14-year old is involuntarily drafted into the youth wing of what might be the most ferocious military and police state in human experience. Two years later, he is drafted into actual military service. He complies but states he did not take part of any crimes. Some would say he was young and had no choice. Yet,
In fact, it has been study, Milgram experiment by Stanley Milgram who asked the very same question.
From his “The Perils of Obedience” Duty Without Conflict:
But it is conclusion that is the most interesting:
Dr. Thomas Blass performed a meta-analysis on the results of the experiment. He found that the percentage of participants who are prepared to inflict fatal voltages remains remarkably constant, between 61% and 66%, regardless of time or location. Are we always destined to repeat history?
What would happen if the subjects were members of an isolated tribe in Africa, the Amazon, Indonesia?
I have a feeling that with subjects from more civilized cultures, very few people would “pull the lever.”
take Louise Ogborn’s case and the other 70 cases like her.
I won’t go on with the horrible things she had to do.
They all took orders from a guy who was thought to be from the police, a person with authority. Granted at some point it did stop, but at the same time look how far it before it stopped. The argument can go both ways. Are we doomed to fall into the spell of somebody in power and therefore justify our reasons for doing something horrific by saying I was just following orders. At the same time we can ask ourselves this questions. What is our personal threshold, we will question the commands of the authorities. In others words, at what point did that solider who was the whistleblower of the Abu prison scandal say enough is enough?
Where you have to pick between two choices each time – I think it’s the Myers-Briggs, but can’t rightly rememember.
Anyway, one of the questions is “justice or mercy?” – you can only pick one.
When it comes to discussing atrocities, I think what Ductape is pointing out is that when we are not linked to the perpetrator, eg say if an army invaded the USA and committed all sorts of terrible deeds, Americans without question would want at the very least justice. Many would really want to see eye-for-an-eye retribution, which is often badly confused with justice by Americans – hence the popularity still of the death penalty, for eg.
But if we are talking of Americans committing atrocities, most other Americans then swing to choosing mercy – and the usual (quite legitimate) list of explanations and justifications for the perpetrator’s behaviour are given.
That is American exceptionalism at work. Because you can equally make the “mercy” arguments for the members of the army that invades the USA and commits atrocities, as you can for American atrocity-committers. Equally we can make arguments for at the very least justice, and preferably retribution against Americans who commit atrocities.
What is really missing is the true understanding and concept of justice. In that test, I always pick justice over mercy.
Because no matter how young the kid, and what their circumstances, to murder a civilian is ultimately just plain wrong. True justice will mete out a judgement on behalf of society that weighs both the importance of that moral absolute for society, and the circumstance that brought the perpetrator to commit the crime.
True justice does not excuse and comfort the perpetrator to the point that the the quality of mercy for the criminal outweighs that offered to the victim. That is what happens if we essentially excuse the crime based on circumstance, because it ignores the fact that no matter how arguably blameless the criminal, the victim was tenfold more.
WE need to relearn the concept of compassionate justice. It is not eye for an eye to send the world blind, and it is not excuses and exceptionalism because they are one of our own. It is clear judgement against a set of cherished moral absolutes that stop us all from becoming monsters, it is compassion for circumstance, but it is not excusing in the face of the anguished, innocent dead.
An example I used in another thread is this one: I am in the military. I lead a supply convoy. I have orders to run over any child who runs in front of my vehicle, because my “enemy” has been using children as decoys for ambushes. My convoy is made up of men and women I care deeply about, love even. If a child runs in front of my truck and I don’t stop, I will murder that child – a civilian – and commit an atrocity, but my friends and loved ones will be alive. Does that make me a monster? If I stop to avoid murdering that child, I risk allowing all of my friends to be murdered – another atrocity, but the child will be alive. Does that make me a monster? And, of course don’t forget about my human instinct of self-preservation – I’ve got a built-in bias that leans heavily towards keeping myself alive. Does that make me a monster? What is the right answer, and what is the wrong answer? If I murder that innocent child and keep my loved ones alive, what do I get – justice or mercy? If I don’t murder the child, but allow my comrades to be murdered, what do I get – justice or mercy? Of course, in an ideal world I wouldn’t be in the military to begin with, but in this moment, that is not an option, because I already am. What is the right decision? I am surrounded by moral absolutes – it’s wrong to kill a child, it’s wrong for me to allow my friends to be killed, it’s wrong for me to be killed – but I can only pick one, and I have to do it in a split second. What should it be? These are the kinds of real war decisions that haunt me. And the issue of an adult using a child as a decoy throws an entirely new moral absolute into the situation. All horrors. Absolute horrors.
Protect the people that are in your care. You have no higher responsibility. Others can arbitrate the situation you find yourself in.
As an innocent civilian, the child is by the rules of war, also in your [the soldier’s] care.
Which seems to be the point that is forgotten over and over.
You beat me to it, myriad.
All of us are in each other’s care.
The horror will not stop until there is no “them”, only “us”.
You and your friends chose to be in the military.
The child just by being a minor did not choose to be put in the situation you portray, and is incapable of making that choice in the same way an adult can, with a full understanding of the consequences.
Ask any ethicist and most will tell you that the right decision is to swerve to miss the child, as in the first place the child is more innocent than you, in the second it has far less protection from the consequences than you, and in the third it might just be a frightened child in the wrong place, not a decoy.
There was a case recently in Africa where a UN convoy was attacked by armed child soldiers. They chose not to shoot, but took cover and did everything they could to disarm the kids – wrestling them down etc., but did not shoot at them.
There are moral absolutes. One is not to shoot children, even ones that have been co-opted into armed conflict. So much of the world agrees on this point that we have global treaties on it. Others breaking or ignoring that treaty is irrelevant to your decision.
If you hit the child, you might not be a monster, but you are profoundly ill-trained as a soldier of appropriate ethics in the situations you might face, and have been ill-equipped by life as an individual to navigate such complex choices. In short the the situation you face poses such a terrible dilemma says to me that your society has let you down on multiple levels.
Whether we like it or not, whom we care about or love from an ethical perspective has got nothing to do with the ethical decisions we have to make.
[HYPOTHETICAL] Your murdering brother, though you might still love him (and there’s nothing wrong with that) still must face justice. The innocent stranger he killed deserves no less, even though you don’t know let alone love him.
Love has actually got nothing to do with it.
I’m just a poor, uneducated kid from a poor, uneducated town who was “dumb” enough to be seduced by the video games at Army.com and the promise that I would get an education and $20,000, which would buy my dirt-poor mom a new trailer. I don’t know any ethicists. I probably can’t even say it, let alone spell it. I just got to Iraq. They told me Saddam did 9/11, and that insurgents want to take away my freedom. I am 18. I am scared. I am not ready for this. I saw my friend die. I don’t want to die. I was driving…there was a kid who ran in front of me…he was in the road…and my orders were…and it happened so fast…there was yelling…and I was scared…and I ran him over. I hear him and see him every time I close my eyes now. I can’t sleep. They said I would be a food service specialist. I didn’t know it would be like this.
Justice or mercy?
What a lot of information we know about the kid who did the driving. What a stark dearth of information we have on the even younger kid who now lies dead. I wonder if you can even see that.
Poor dumb kids do not exist in a vacuum. This is why ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law. A person’s circumstances are taken into account by justice. If you choose mercy, the circumstances of the child you don’t even know anything about don’t even rate a mention. “Mercy” makes his death less meaningful than the other poor dumb kid’s apparent ‘right’ to make repeated mistakes, willingly aided & abetted by a coherent, wealthy society to make repeated wrong judgements, and in fact encouraged by it to see the child he hit as worth nothing.
Your poor dumb kid might have made many poor choices, but the fact remains that they were choices, and we all have to answer for the choices we make. Even poor dumb American kids.
Forgot to log out my partner as usual. Sorry.
Wow. Oh, yeah I forgot. I’m an exceptionalist… how could I ever see the victim. (sigh) It is “your” poor, dumb kid, too, not just mine, just as the victim is “our” victim, not just yours or mine. I wonder if you would feel the same if that poor dumb kid was your son. The beauty of your argument is that we will never know, because you are living in hypotheticals. I am not living in hypotheticals – I no longer have that luxury. Your and DTF’s dismissal of this poor, dumb kid doesn’t fit very well into the the nation without borders that DTF speaks of.
You automatically accuse the poor, dumb kid and me of dismissing the victim, when that couldn’t be further from the truth! The very existence of that victim, that victims very victimhood, the innocence of that victim, the senseless loss of life is exactly WHY that poor dumb kid can’t sleep. I would propose that that poor dumb kid knows more about that victim than you and I will ever know. Acknowledging the circumstances of his decision-making, providing him with compassion, and understanding the environment doesn’t lesson the victim’s circumstance – it elevates it. It shows that we are willing to understand why man does this, and that we are committed to doing our best to prevent it from ever happening again. I wonder if you can see that.
Has it ever occurred to you that justice, in the form of a societal condemnation of not just his action, but the system and circumstances that led to it, a just punishment for his particular culpability, and a chance to make amends through accepting that, might be his only hope of being able to sleep at night, and come to terms with himself.
Justice has a very strong role to play in saving the perpetrator, as well as serving the victim – especially if the perpetrator is penitent.
You automatically accuse the poor, dumb kid and me of dismissing the victim, when that couldn’t be further from the truth!
No, I didn’t. I pointed out that your personal level of knowledge of the PDK was naturally swaying you towards mercy for him, and that in doing so you were denying that same level of self and meaning to the victim. The dead child is much more than a victim. S/he had a life, a family, and all the things that made him/her so much more than just a bag of bones and flesh by the time the PDK had finished the seemingly inevitable (?!) outcome of his hapless life.
The PDK can’t sleep. Woopdidoo. The other innocent child is dead.
I would propose that that poor dumb kid knows more about that victim than you and I will ever know.
That’s a completely unfounded and emotional statement.
Acknowledging the circumstances of his decision-making, providing him with compassion, and understanding the environment doesn’t lesson the victim’s circumstance – it elevates it.
It only elevates the victim in relation to the perpetrator. You have given him/her no standing as a human being in his/her own right. And you still don’t seem to get that justice does take a compassionate view of a perpetrator’s circumstances, but in serving the victim as well, it does not let the crime be subsumed by circumstance to the point that the criminal has more compassion than the dead innocent child.
It shows that we are willing to understand why man does this, and that we are committed to doing our best to prevent it from ever happening again.
Bluntly, what a crock. We already understand and know why. That’s why we have global laws protecting children and dictating the ethics of combat and soldier behaviour. Democracies that stand proud of their human rights record like the USA are meant to rigidly enforce those rules, remember?
Your PDK is the result of a society that is so used to elevating the worth of it’s citizens above those of others that it can’t even produce a military system that hammers home to all PDKs to the point that it’s a reflex that soldiers do not kill civilians, that soldiers are governed by the Geneva Convention, and it forms a line that must never be crossed.
You have an army that has made shooting a child to save another soldier completely justifiable and reflex, but not protecting civilians. It’s a travesty.
I think this has been a very valuable and excellent discussion. However, I do hope that we can recognize that the lion’s share of the blame here lies with those that deployed the troops and not with those that trained them, or with the troops themselves.
Honestly, we could do a lot of deconstruction of the heroism of our World War Two veterans compared with the absolute evil of the Germans and the Japanese. But the truth is that it was the values being fought for that determined the justness of the actions of the grunts on the ground and the planes in the air.
We need to recognize that in Iraq the people that are involved in violence (on both sides) are not acting with a purety of motives that would tend to lead us to give them unwavering support.
The tragedy of Iraq is that there are not really any good guys. Our guys are not unambiguously bad, and the people killing our soldiers are not unambigiously innocent or unambigious patriots.
Bush has made a moral fiasco.
Although I would disagree with
not with those that trained them
Sure, it’s the bastards at the top picking the war and setting most of the rules who we really want to see meet justice.
But I’d argue that one of the defenses a good military system has it to train its troops in the highest ethical standards available, because it does have control over that part of its operation, and more room to ignore things like “what constitutes ok torture”.
In short, how a military trains its troops is one area it can actively resist a corrupt and depraved regime. I think we all know and agree that powerful militaries like the USA’s are far more than a dumb instrument of whatever administration comes along.
But our soldiers have been trained extraordinarily well in human rights, Probably better than any military in history. I think we need to face facts. The mission is compromised and the standards in place have been undermined by recruitment problems and the difficulties encountered on the ground.
I dunno, what would the folks in Nuremburg say about justice or mercy for the “just following orders” defense?
Me personally, I can see how he got into that fucked up situation. I do feel for him and think it’s a tragedy that he was that poor that he felt he had no choice but the army. BUT, is that enough of an excuse to not desert or resist when he realized how he had been lied to about the war? That is the crux of what came out of Nuremberg… that we are all responsible for our individual choices… and ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
It’s not just ignorance of the law – it is a thousand fucked-up circumstances coming together in a split-second and two innocent kids who are pawns in an absurd, insane situation. Don’t forget that maybe just six months earlier, this poor dumb kid might have been considered a minor, just as the child is. The only answer is no war, but we know that isn’t gonna happen. So, until then, my position will be that that boy does not deserve MY judgement. He deserves my compassion, just as his victim deserves my compassion. There are plenty of others who will jump to the fore to judge him.
These are the kinds of real war decisions that haunt me.
I have been thinking about you convoy description since reading it in your diary, “Condemnation” – haunted is a very apt description.
Thank you for staying in this discussion. I imagine it is very difficult for you.
Myriad’s definition of true justice got me thinking of the words we are using and what we mean.
It seems to me that “judgement” is more about determining whether a “wrong” was done. What gets confused in here, imo, is that we think this “judging someone” is the same as “condemning” them.
Personally, “condemning” brings to mind a childhood memory of a picture of an angel, banishing Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden. My dictionary’s first definition of “condemn” has to do with “expressing complete disapproval and censure.” Though the second definition has to do with “finding someone guilty of a criminal act or wrong,” it is connected to sentencing to a punishment.
“Judging” has to do with “the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.” There is a very great difference between “condemnation” and “judgement.”
Is it not possible to judge with compassion?
“Mercy,” again from my dictionary, has to do with: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one’s power to punish or harm.
It seems that in this discussion, “mercy” is about not “punishing” or doing more harm to the person who is already punishing and harming themselves.
Justice is not about “punishment.”
Woldoog – I don’t know if you can bear to stay in this discussion. That you have continued to respond so thoughtfully, without anger, is truly awe inspiring.
I will admit that I was upset when I first saw this diary – I knew that it was “calling me out”, but I quickly realized that it would be a valuable tool in discussing this god-awful topic.
Look, I know that, as an example, what the men did at Haditha is wrong. I know it was horrible. And I am sickened when I think of what that must have been like for those poor, innocent people. But what I can’t say is that those men are monsters. That will anger some, and that is OK, but I just can’t say it. They were once moral. They have wives and children and grandfathers and grandmothers. I’m sure that these men once thought that they were in possession of solid “moral absolutes”. I am quite certain that none of them EVER thought they were capable of doing what they did. If you had asked them before they went to Iraq if they thought they would put a bullet into a three-year-old, they probably would have looked at you like you were mad. All of them would probably have never laid a finger on a woman or a child or an elderly person had they not been in a very disturbing, insane situation. And that is the part I can’t shake. That doesn’t mean that I forget the victims, that I am not disgusted, that I condone the violence, that I think it was justified, that I support atrocity, that it is sometimes OK to murder innocent people. It means that I acknowledge that there are forces in play that I will never comprehend. And for that reason, I must seperate myself. I choose to not condemn them. They have condemned themselves, and they will be condemned by others.
So many in this thread seem so confident in what their reaction would be when faced with an unthinkable situation – what seems to get ignored is the monumental power of emotions – anger, fear, sadness, resentment, and the sheer power of instinct, a feature all humans have. What gets overlooked is that MOST people are good and think they are incapable of atrocity. Most people firmly believe they have “moral absolutes”. And we are all extremely fortunate that we will likely never have to challenge those beliefs, for we might be disgusted by what we find.
Thank you for your kind words. Definitions and meanings get blurred and are different for everyone. I have found the meaning that is right for me, just as you and others have found the meanings that are right for you, and may we all never have to find that our meanings are wrong. I know that my position is very confusing and disturbing to some, but it is, and shall remain, my position. In a perfect world, with no violence and no war and no powerful men victimizing the world’s innocents, my position would be otherwise. But we don’t have a perfect world, never have, and, at least in my lifetime, probably never will.
Woldoog,
I echo Tampopo’s sentiments regarding your willingness to stay engaged in this thread. I, for one, am grateful to read and try to come to an understanding of your position, and the positions of others here. I don’t find your position confusing, or disturbing. I can wish it were different, but regardless of whether I agree with you or not, I still appreciate your willingness to explain why you feel the way you do.
If I say to you that I can categorically guarantee you that I would never shoot a baby in the head no matter the circumstances that led to me being in the position to do so, you might think me crazy, or sanctimonious. But that’s what I will tell you. I would put that bullet in my own head before I would murder a child. And if I weren’t capable of making that guarantee, then I would never allow myself to be put into that situation to begin with. That might mean never joining the military regardless of my financial situation, or it might involve disobeying the order that put me in that situation to begin with. Like SusanW’s comment. Rather than ruining me, I believe that refusing that order would set me free, or set me on the path to DTF’s explanation of a higher level of evolutionary progress. Kevin Benderman did exactly that. He could no longer obey orders that directly endangered the lives of innocent Iraqi children. He was imprisoned, yes, but I can imagine that he found a greater freedom of conscience within those prison walls, than if he had allowed himself to become directly responsible for the deaths of children. If you’ve never heard of him, here is a link to his defense fund,
Kevin Benderman Defense
I do not consider the men, or boys who were involved in the massacre at Haditha as monsters. But I can say that they perpetrated monsterous acts. And in judging them, I am not condemning them. I’m simply saying that they commited murder. How there can be any argument about their culpability is beyond my grasp. And though they may suffer internally, and condemn themselves, it will never change the fact of their guilt. They should be punished. The same as the child from a poor ghetto who kills another person in a drug fueled haze. Though in the right frame of mind, and under normal circumstances they would never murder another person, it still will never change the fact that an innocent person is dead, and they pulled the trigger. There are thousands of such people filling our prison system right now. Is it not the same? They live in a different war zone, but a war zone all the same. How much compassion and understanding is our society giving them? None really.
I have to take a break. I’ll be back.
I’m not going anywhere. Take your time, and thanks.
Woldoog, there’s no rush. I know this is hard. It’s been hard for me too, reading all of this, and I’m not in the same position you are. I should have told you that I feel really uncomfortable commenting now. That’s why I waited so long to do it I think. I can understand how you feel singled out here. And although I addressed my comment to you, it was not meant just specifically for you, or to make a condemnation of your Father in any way. As an American, I’m still torn, more than my comments might suggest. I find myself “supporting the troops”. I empathize with the horrific situation they find themselves in. At the same time I can’t turn away from the feeling, growing feeling, that my support is misdirected. I am not a pacifist. I don’t believe that all war is unnecesarry. I wish it were, but that’s not realistic, imo. But as our country begins more and more to resemble a country from the last century, with a dictator in charge, and a military that carried out the worst atrocities, I find myself being less torn about my nationality, and the support of my/our military. If there is such a thing as a just war, this one is not it. And as more news of more atrocities being commited, and more torture being inflicted on innocents reaches the light of day, the less inclined I am to support troops who, in my mind, should be deserting en masse. Because they are now complicit. Whether the policies they are carrying out are wrong or not, is no longer the question. They are all responsible now.
I feel compelled to share a detail of my father’s story with you. It makes me uncomfortable to put it in words, and I purposefully left it out of my diary for that very reason, but it merits discussion, given your above comment. The second time my father “snapped” in the field, he decided that he could no longer do what was being asked of him. He stood up and told his commanding officer and his men that they would have to kill him before they could ever again get him to go out on another patrol in which he might have to kill. In that moment, the military became his enemy. That was considered insane at the time – do you see the irony in that? He was medicated, restrained and locked up for months – all of that punishment for going “sane” in an insane environment. My father’s morality was in play the entire time, it never went away, but it got compromised by an incomprehensible situation. And when he said NO to it being compromised further, he was punished beyond words. Pardon my French, but how fucked up is THAT? It perfectly illustrates how and why it is not always so easy to stand up and dissent, and why we should never underestimate forces that are incomprehensible to us.
Thanks for your kindness and understanding. I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate that we even have to talk about this.
He may have made bad decisions, terrible decisions, decisions to commit atrocities, and from what you have told of him, he would be the last person to minimize or call them anything but that.
But he was actually made of better stuff, he was, in fact, a man of extraordinary courage and moral character.
Kipling is not my favorite poet, but the line “keep your head when all about you, are losing theirs and blaming it on you” was written for your father on the day the man in him won his own war, and stood up.
He stood up for his victims, and for himself, but he also stood up for you, and for any little ones that you might have. What a wonderful gift they will have in the story of their grandfather’s bravery!
And what a wonderful example of courage for you, and they, to live up to.
How fucked up is that? Depends on who’s perspective it is. Sounds like standard operating procedure for disobeying orders, if Kevin Benderman’s experience is any guide. The same thing happened to your Father. I’m not going to ever say that going sane in an insane environment is the easy thing to do. It must be just about the hardest thing to do, and your Father showed phenominal courage for standing up and refusing to carry out orders. But in doing so he saved himself and possibly saved others. I would also bet that his heroism that day did not go unnoticed by his comrades who may have been of the same mind. That is exactly what I wish more soldiers could find it within themselves to do now. Where one stands up, maybe another finds the courage to stand, and another.
None of this is pleasant, and like you, I wish we didn’t need to have these discussions. They’re very painful for many, like you. It’s painful for all of us to one degree or another because it goes to the core of who we have believed we are, or were. It’s encouraging to me though that we can do this, and still remain civil with one another and remain on the same side. I don’t want anyone else to die in this war. Iraqi, Afghan, or American.
ps
Woldoog,
Thanks for hanging in there. And thanks to your Dad for standing up.
There’s more to that part of my father’s story that would complicate it even further, but I am brain-tired and I think I will go outside for a while. I hope you’ll understand that I don’t know if I want to talk about this anymore. I’m spent, just as I’m sure you are.
“An example I used in another thread is this one: I am in the military. I lead a supply convoy. I have orders to run over any child who runs in front of my vehicle, because my “enemy” has been using children as decoys for ambushes.”
The decision point is HERE, not when the child runs in front of the truck.
When you receive that order, you stand up and publically refuse it. You are arrested and court martialed.
And the next time that vile order is given, another will refuse it, and another, and another, each willing to pay the penalty for his moral stand, until that order is no longer given.
Your moral integrity may not require you die in the place of that child, but surely it does demand that you refuse an order to kill him.
But in refusing that order, I may have killed my friends. Or myself. And as I said, I have a built-in tool that tries to keep me from allowing myself to be killed – my instinct towards self-preservation. No matter what decision I make, I am a ruined, broken, destroyed or dead person. There isn’t enough time between recognition of when a decision should be made and when the decision must be made. Sometimes the only thing capable of making that decision is instinct, and by your position that instinct is wrong. We can’t just throw human nature out of the mix in this discussion – instincts are powerful forces, and they are powerful for a reason.
I appriciate your ideas although I respectfully disagree.
Your refusal to participate in a no win situation does not make you responsible for the danger to your friends; that culpability lies in the hands of those who devised a fundamentally flawed solution. Refusal to participate striks a blow against bad planning and bad management.
My instinct is to recoil from that order. It is the same refusal to collude that required me to quit my job when I was ordered to falsify inspection reports on pilot ejection seat hardware. The same moral imperative drove me to leave a job when I was ordered to forge documents certifying exported seed as free of environmentally dangerous weeds, and the job where I was ordered to falsify compliance reports on military components.
These were not easy decisions, and I paid a high price for them. Nobody pats you on the back for bucking the system. Every protester, activist and whistle blower risks jail time, beatings, financial hardship, damaged relationships, and even death. It is the price each of us must be willing to pay when the stakes are high; it is randsom for our souls.
Lest I sound too bloody sancimonious here, I have berated myself over the years for not going far enough, for not risking more. I could have blown the whistle on the those companies, but I didn’t; the possibility of actually achieving anything seemed too remote when weighed against the personal cost. Yes, that’s I, bobbing and weaving.
We each develope a personal level of insight that informs our morality and galvanizes our actions. Those who choose to believe that It’s Morning in America (as opposed to Mourning in America)will be able to throw up their hands in horror when even they can no longer ignore the Fascism that has come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. “I didn’t know,” or “There was nothing I coud do,” they can weep when it’s finally too late.
I’ll always curse myself for not doing more, and I have no such ready excuse to fall back on.
This thread has been very unsettling, but inspiring as well. Where else could we have a discussion like this with so many earnest, intelligent, thoughtful, good people? The cross questioning, disagreements, and different approaches to values assessment make us think, are a priceless gift.
Though I agree that we must all seek an elevated level of morality, I hope you can see why my position must differ from yours in some ways. Our own experiences are what have made this discussion so valuable. I long for a day when there is no need to ponder these things. These diaries have exhausted me, kept me awake at night and brought me to tears. I have been waiting for someone to blatantly attack me and my father, to throw out the phrase “baby-killer” or some other horrible term, and I am relieved that no one has. This has been so hard for me – you can never know just how hard, and that is why our positions will differ, and that is OK. I am in tears as I write this. Once, when my father was in a relatively “healthy” phase, he tried to speak at schools in order to help de-glorify war. I went to one of his talks once, and I died inside when one of the first questions a student asked was, “Did you kill someone?” My father stood in front of that classroom and balled his eyes out. A few years later he shot himself.
Your father’s moral courage redeemed him. His attempts to de-glorify war were heroic. We will never know how many lives he saved because he was willing to bare his soul in a way few of us are brave enough to even contemplate. He may have even tipped the scales by saving more lives than he took. His willingness to do that was an honest attempt to redress the wrongs that were destroying him.
I wish all of us on this thread could have heard that school presentation. I wish we could have convinced him that his life could be an ongoing testament to conscience. I wish that in his pain, he could have believed it.
I am so sad for you, woldoog, I can’t stop crying.
That is why I cannot get my brain around the idea that normally good people who are put in the insane environment of a war zone and do insane things are not allowed that chance at moral redemption. That belief stems from my own personal experience, it is my own personal bias. It can’t change, because if it did, it would change everything I feel about my father. And that is what my diary was about.
The pain of all of this has been brought to the forefront for me because of Iraq and Afghanistan. It makes me so sad.
I know that great literature is not a panacea, but it can make us less alone in our despair. Please let me suggest “The Andersonville Trial”, Saul Levitt’s play based on a Civil War case against the commander of a Confederate prisoner of war camp, but written in reaction to the Nuremberg Trials.
People have struggled with the paradox of demanding individual moral responsibility within a hierarchical military structure for as long as there have been armies.
But what I think you are missing is that redemption, real redemption (not just empty words and sideways glances and slow ostracisation) has to be earned. Pardoning someone of all their sins doesn’t actually really help them. It’s a cop-out, and those who actually care about what they have done know it.
I missed your diary about your father’s talk to the school, but from what I can gather, it seems to me your father already knows he has to earn his redemption, and in the absence of society laying a path for him (justice in some form), he’s laying one for himself. I wish him well on the road.
And let me contrast him with my father. My father can’t handle daily stress, and as a result would come home for almost 30 years and at some point snap, and take it out on his family, mainly beating and abusing his wife. Now I can understand why my father did what he did – while not technically mentally ill, he is mentally ill-equipped to deal with life, and has had 3 nervous breakdowns.
My mother left him eventually, but never laid charges. She still lives with effectively PTSD. In many ways, he ruined her life.
He has never fully admitted his culpability, nor sought any form of redemption. Nor has my mother or he been given justice by society, which would have laid a path for him.
Do you think he deserves mercy? I don’t. Words are not enough to make up for 30 years of violence and mental abuse against 3 people. Deeds, and intent are needed, but my father doesn’t have them. He expects to be excused because of his personal failings. My mother is left without any closure, and my father has lost his children because then only justice we have at our disposal is to remove him from our lives.
He stands in stark contrast to your father, who understands his circumstances and his sins, and now works by intent and deed to atone for them.
I didn’t write a diary about a talk to the school. I wrote a diary about my father’s combat-related PTSD and was promptly called out as an “atrocity apologist”. This discussion has exhausted me and I hope you’ll understand if I exit it permanently.
I appriciate your ideas although I respectfully disagree.
Your refusal to participate in a no win situation does not make you responsible for the danger to your friends; that culpability lies in the hands of those who devised a fundamentally flawed solution. Refusal to participate striks a blow against bad planning and bad management.
My instinct is to recoil from that order. It is the same refusal to collude that required me to quit my job when I was ordered to falsify inspection reports on pilot ejection seat hardware. The same moral imperative drove me to leave a job when I was ordered to forge documents certifying exported seed as free of environmentally dangerous weeds, and the job where I was ordered to falsify compliance reports on military components.
These were not easy decisions, and I paid a high price for them. Nobody pats you on the back for bucking the system. Every protester, activist and whistle blower risks jail time, beatings, financial hardship, damaged relationships, and even death. It is the price each of us must be willing to pay when the stakes are high; it is randsom for our souls.
Lest I sound too bloody sancimonious here, I have berated myself over the years for not going far enough, for not risking more. I could have blown the whistle on the those companies, but I didn’t; the possibility of actually achieving anything seemed too remote when weighed against the personal cost. Yes, that’s I, bobbing and weaving.
We each develope a personal level of insight that informs our morality and galvanizes our actions. Those who choose to believe that It’s Morning in America (as opposed to Mourning in America)will be able to throw up their hands in horror when even they can no longer ignore the Fascism that has come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. “I didn’t know,” or “There was nothing I coud do,” they can weep when it’s finally too late.
I’ll always curse myself for not doing more, and I have no such ready excuse to fall back on.
This thread has been very unsettling, but inspiring as well. Where else could we have a discussion like this with so many earnest, intelligent, thoughtful, good people? The cross questioning, disagreements, and different approaches to values assessment make us think, and are a priceless gift.
DAMN.
So sorry for the double post. My self righteous drivel is hard enough to take ONCE, let along twice.
I never became a member of the military because I knew I wouldn’t be able or willing to follow orders that might require me to “run over a child”, to use your example.
Many people don’t understand the true nature of atrocity that war itself represents until after they’ve participated in it. Some have an epiphany and quit; some find ways to legitimize and excuse actions barbaric in any other context; some flip out; and some actually enjoy the brutality they are able to perpetrate under the guise of “serving their country”.
I have quite a few friends who’ve been in combat in the military, some who are representative of each category above. I certainly hope for your sake, (not to mention for the sake of a family unfortunate enough to live in a war zone), that you have never deliberately run over a child as part of your “duty” as a soldier.
Woldoog,
My comment immediately above was a response to your comment way upthread. I hadn’t realized there was so much of a [powerful] downthread discussion in place until after I posted this (what now seems to me somewhat glib) response.
I hope you will forgive what might have come across as a somewhat preachy or overly simplistic tone. Such was not my intent at all. I had thought your original comment was rooted in pure hypothesis since I hadn’t yet read the commentary dealing with your father and his tragic difficulties.
True justice will mete out a judgement on behalf of society that weighs both the importance of that moral absolute for society, and the circumstance that brought the perpetrator to commit the crime.
Thank you for your contribution to this discussion.
How do you define mercy?
You began your post with making a choice on the Myers-Briggs. Yet, as I thought about your description of true justice, it seems to me that mercy has less to do with judgement and more to do with punishment.
Given that it’s a gut-feel test, but I think nevertheless it nails it.
In the frame I’ve provided (justice or mercy), mercy means an expunging of someone’s crimes to the extent that the victim of them is essentially, forgotten. In other words, a judge is so moved by the circumstances of the criminal, that they forget that there is a victim attached to the crime.
True justice should, and does, allow for compassion for the perpetrator. It even allows for the alleviating it. It’s not just about punishment; true justice sets a path of penitence for a criminal, that will allow them eventually to redeem themselves to society. Mercy leaves a bitterness for the victims and survivors, and may well never assuage a guilty soul that knows it has done wrong.
We forget I think that there are many soldiers – given that is whom we’re talking about – who would be relieved to actually have someone tell them they did the wrong thing, and that they must redeem themselves to be worthy once again in society, and to atone.
Atonement is a very powerful process that is becoming largely forgotten in our society, as we seek only to either vindictively punish, or completely excuse. I believe that justice lies between those two paths.
This is excellent. It pins down a distinction we may not have addressed. I think we all object to the automatic, jingoistic defense of any American soldier who commits atrocities, whether he/she is subsumed in guilty grief or smugly smirking for the cameras. One is reclaiming his humanity, and needs a societal framework to make amends, as far as that is possible, and to do everything in his power to prevent such atrocities from ever being committed again. The other is still a danger who cannot or will not understand his crimes. Mercy is not a solution for either, but true justice is.
Relax. supersoling doesn’t ask for people to be banned and I don’t ban people lightly, and certainly wouldn’t ban you over some minor disagreement.
We’ve had a lot of success with keeping the rules fairly lax and having the community self-police. As long as people don’t engage in personal attacks or post personal communications, or overtly violate the rules, there is no reason to ban anyone.
We don’t have people ganging up on each other and demanding people be banned. And I hope it stays that way.
I learned on ManE’s blog that Ductape, who is on dial-up, can no longer get into this diary. He will try to catch up with individual comments and reply to them, if he can.
This is one of the most compelling discussions here that I’ve read recently. It’s too late to express my opinions now, except for this:
I hope the writers have benefited, and been moved to think further, as I have in the reading of it. Not to leave, or to walk away from hard ideas and disagreements. Can we deal with polemics and persuasion in the same discussion? I’m never certain, until the after effects are felt.