Life is a series of tests of our integrity. Do we pass? Do we fail? I know there were times in my youth when I compromised my integrity in order to be popular, and wow, did that hurt. It hurt more than not being popular, to be honest.
That’s why I’m not sad that I was banned yesterday from Daily Kos.
I knew I was always a hairs’ breadth from being banned because my posts deal largely with the conspiratorial side of history. But specifically, the post that seems to have tipped the bucket was my calling out of a couple of the site moderators. This isn’t about them so I’m leaving their names out. It’s about the challenge to act with integrity, and why I felt the need to stand up.
Here is the quote to which I took offense:
Take a wild guess as to why people like me, who put frontpage posts up about the Ohio irregularities and looked at the public Diebold code analysis Bev Harris’ team put up to verify the holes her team found, don’t do it anymore. Why [x], someone who was promoted to the frontpage partly because of her treatment of this issue, doesn’t touch this crap much anymore.
Because we’re embarrassed to be seen with “prove me wrong” people who can’t differentiate between the true things and the fakes, and insist on humiliating everyone else around them.
And here is my response, my last, at Kos:
So you’ve stopped talking about one of the most important issues of our time for fear of personal embarrassment?
Geez. I’m sure glad I didn’t let that stop me in my Kennedy assassination research. I had people writing me telling me Richard Helms was secretly Howard Hughes, that the driver killed Kennedy, that Elvis shot him from a UFO and all that crap. But I never stopped pursuing the truth just because idiots chose to follow a similar path.
I stood up, kept telling the truth as I saw it, and never let the idiots speak for me.
Gosh, [y]. I hope you and [x] grow back whatever parts of spine you’ve lost. It’s still important. And the stupid arguments will go unbelieved and ignored, as they have and will always be. There are always those with a low standard of evidence. There are also those with too high a standard of evidence (i.e., I won’t say it until everyone on the planet agrees its true). At some point, you have to stand up for what you believe. I’m really disappointed to read this, and hope maybe you have a better explanation, because this one really sucks, bigtime.
I’m a shy person, with people I don’t know. I’m terribly sensitive. I can be hurt to tears in an instant. Have been. Often. Most days of my life, it would seem.
When I first joined the online world, I got involved in a newsgroup called alt.conspiracy.jfk. I quickly had my every post stomped on, chopped up, misquoted, denied, raged upon, etc. It was a frightening experience, to be honest, at first. But it made me tough. So tough that I sometimes forget how sensitive others who have not had to weather the storms yet can be. But weather them I did.
My point is, if I, little miss cry-at-the-drop-of-a-hat, can withstand the ridicule, the abuse, and not only survive but make it onto National TV (Discovery Channel / Conspiracy Files – the “CIA Mind Control” segment, re-airing on June 22 – check local listings), what are others afraid of?
A lot of people are stronger than me, have better lives, more going on, more friends, more comfort. They, of all people, should be braver as they have less to lose and lots to fall back on.
In this case, you had two moderators of a huge site backing down for fear of having to be associated with the rabble. As mentioned above – I’ve had to fight, for some fifteen years now, being grouped with all the nutcases in the bag called “conspiracy theorist.”
So did I jump out of the bag? Hell no. I knew there was truth in there, and kept digging around. Along the way, I found out something interesting. Presidents. Heads of State. People I really respect, like Gore Vidal. All CTers. As are all the CIA people I’ve ever met. In fact, they see conspiracies where I wouldn’t even think to look, because they KNOW what goes on.
Yeah. I don’t like being grouped with nutheads who think “the driver shot Kennedy”, or George Bush shot Kennedy, or – yeah, it’s out there – Jackie hired someone to kill Jack. I despise that kind of ridiculous crap. And often, the people pushing that crap link back to the government. The standard way to hide something is to discredit it as a conspiracy theory, and then offer ridiculous counter-theories that cannot possibly be true and promote the worst of them with one hand so as to ridicule them with the other.
That’s why my heros are different than some. My heros are people like Steven D, who is not afraid to call it as he sees it, who doesn’t shy away for fear of being grouped with others less worthy.
My new hero of the moment is Craig Unger, who, unlike the rest of the media, went after the question I’ve been asking others since day 1: Who forged the Niger documents? To me, following that thread leads directly to those responsible for taking us into war on a deliberate lie.
It was no surprise to me that people in the media didn’t want to follow that story. That would make them unpopular with the administration. And unpopularity leads to lack of access, and lack of access can be a career ender. So I was really heartened that Unger and Vanity Fair were willing to follow this story, wherever it would lead. These stories are tough. They take time, and time means money. Mostly, it requires a reporter to be good, i.e., to dig in and not take the easy way out. As Unger explains:
Unraveling a disinformation campaign is no easy task. It means entering a kingdom of shadows peopled by would-be Machiavellis who are practiced in the art of deception. “In the world of fabrication, you don’t just drop something and let someone pick it up,” says Bearden. “Your first goal is to make sure it doesn’t find its way back to you, so you do several things. You may start out with a document that is a forgery, that is a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, which makes it hard to track down. You go through cutouts so that the person who puts it out doesn’t know where it came from. And you build in subtle, nuanced errors so you can say, ‘We would never misspell that.’ If it’s very cleverly done, it’s a chess game, not checkers.”
Reporters who have entered this labyrinth often emerge so perplexed that they choose not to write about it. “The chances of being manipulated are very high,” says Claudio Gatti, a New York-based investigative reporter at Il Sole, the Italian business daily. “That’s why I decided to stay out of it.”
Despite such obstacles, a handful of independent journalists and bloggers on both sides of the Atlantic have been pursuing the story. “Most of the people you are dealing with are professional liars, which really leaves you with your work cut out for you as a reporter,” says Joshua Micah Marshall, who has written about the documents on his blog, Talking Points Memo.
So far, no one has figured out all the answers. There is even disagreement about why the documents were fabricated. In a story by Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker, a source suggested that retired and embittered C.I.A. operatives had intentionally put together a lousy forgery in hopes of embarrassing Cheney’s hawkish followers. But no evidence has emerged to support this theory, and many intelligence officers embrace a simpler explanation. “They needed this for the case to go to war,” says Melvin Goodman, who is now a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy. “It serves no other purpose.”
I feel those who deny a conspiracy to steal the election in 2004 (whether or not it was ultimately successful) are at best, naive, and at worst, agents of the coverup. There’s a lot of range in between as well. It’s easier to say hey, someone put some numbers together that “prove” the exit polls really were wrong, phew, I can go back to sleep. It’s much harder to look at something you don’t understand, like math for most people, and see that mathematicians can lie just like anyone else, and that unless you are of equal stature, you should not believe them just because they say it is so.
In the Kennedy assassination, one of the figures trotted out to rebut notions of conspiracy over time has been a Nobel-prize winning scientist! But the guy has also been on the CIA payroll. In which capacity is he espousing his “science” on the case (science which others have discredited, by the way)?
Unger’s article is a marvelous journey into a deception, and I think he has the tiger by the tail. He can’t prove it, and no one is going to take his suspect to court. And it may never be proven. But Unger may have gotten it right. At the very least, he tried, and made a valiant effort.
Those are the people we need to support. Not the journalists who lick the hands that feed them. There are very few real journalists in this country. I was going to say Greg Palast, but technically, he lives in the UK. But there are a few. Robert Parry. Robert Koehler. Robert Kennedy Jr. He’s not really a journalist, but he did a better job on the election than anyone else in the mainstream in putting the facts together into a picture that could be comprehended.
All of the above, and the others like them that have stood up and told the truth, have been ridiculed and jeered along the way. That’s life. Get through it. And get on with it. If you let hurt feelings start determining what you will or won’t post, what you will and not allow on your blog, the world becomes a poorer place.
I have to say in closing I support Booman’s sentiments. And I wouldn’t tell anyone not to go to Daily Kos. Despite the censorship of key issues, there’s some great writing there. There are important discussions on some issues. I would just hope people wouldn’t start to define their own world by Kos, and start to absorb the groupthink there as to what is real and what is not real. Kos wants to be mainstream. And he’s getting there. But not by any path I would choose. It’s not even a destination I would choose. I’ve never sought to be “mainstream.” I’ve sought the truth. And in places I have found it. Sometimes I am fortunate enough to be able to share it with others. And that feeds my integrity. And, amazingly, sometimes even my popularity. π
Hi Lisa,
I was banned from DK yesterday too – in fact I hope that I wasn’t the cause of you getting banned. I was known there as bobblehed (because I had learned, from being banned before (as sidewinder), that you have to nod in agreement or be banned).
You were making some very well-stated points yesterday & it is a shame that the folks in power over there are so weak of character.
Thanks, Bobblehead. I’m going to take full responsibility for all I said – I would never blame you for my banning. I was just really surprised, because when I have posted there, and in that thread in particular, I had gotten a huge number of positive comments. I fear they are shooting themselves in the foot and thinning some of the meat from the site by their choices, but they are not a democracy. They are a corporation, of sorts. I was always a guest there, and as I said – I knew I was unwelcome, to the moderators, from day one. But I was encouraged by the receptions I got there so I kept going back. Well, it’s a good thing. I have two writing projects that lost time yesterday while I sat there – so I’m taking this as a call to return to my own study, and not worry about what others don’t yet know. Some of them will have to learn the hard way. I just hope they don’t ruin it for the rest of us in the process.
hmmm… another diary filed with irrational, Ann Coulter-level, hatred for Dkos.
π
fwiw Lisa, i always enjoyed your stuff in orange. here’s a little relevant bit from an exchange i had with Curmudgette recently, concerning bannings:
Funny thing weeds. The pernicious dandelion, for instance, is one of the most nutritious plants in existence.The stinging nettle is another nutrient packed wonder, if you can stand the taste and texture. But if you want your lawn to be smooth and uniform — to exhibit that desirable shade of monochromatic green — you want to whisk those troublesome, wise, and wild plants out by the roots.
she wrote that, not me.
thanks, btw, for including this bit:
Reporters who have entered this labyrinth often emerge so perplexed that they choose not to write about it. “The chances of being manipulated are very high,” says Claudio Gatti, a New York-based investigative reporter at Il Sole, the Italian business daily. “That’s why I decided to stay out of it.”
you demonstrate that there is a way between knee-jerk denial and wild-eyed credulity.
Thanks, Simon. That’s a fabulous quote re the weeds of wisdom. Yes. Roses and thorns, etc. Nothing good comes without a price.
But let Sondheim do the honors on this one. He wrote the music for “Into the Woods,” a fabulous crosshatching of several familiar fairy tales, woven into a morality play about community, family, and taking responsibility for the consequences of actions, however well intentioned. As the witch says to the crowd,
So many people confuse “nice” with right, when in fact the two often travel separately!
i gave to a friend for her birthday:
Oftentimes there is only one thing more dangerous than thinking that you’re right: being right.
That’s why I fear for Robert Kennedy Jr. right now. Just put a prayer up on my Real History Blog for his safety. He’s talking about pressing litigation in the case of 2004.
My deepest wish, and I cry just writing this, would be to see that man in the White House. And I cry because I fear so much what might happen if he tried. But what if he succeeded?? What light he could bring to these dark times.
I’m not sure he wants it. And honestly, there are people who might do better serving the White House than being in it. Al Gore might also fall into that category.
But I’ll tell you what, if we can get one of our guys into the White House (shout out to Russ) I want him listening to guys like Kennedy and Gore.
Look what Martin Luther King was able to accomplish. No one elected him to do anything – he just stood up and led. Ditto Gandhi.
Gore and Kennedy are both doing that now, and I am deeply inspired by their leadership on, as I’ve said over and over, two of the only uber-issues our our time – global warming, our vote, and the media. And if the media goes after the two of them loudly enough, the two may eventually take up that third issue as well.
And “Into the Woods” no less. I think I love you. ;^)
A fellow fan! We must talk – elsewhere, perhaps! I saw the very first public performance EVER of Into the Woods, down in San Diego, pre-Broadway. A very different show in some aspects. After two hours, as we were leaving, ushers reminded us it was only intermission!! π One of my favorite numbers, Boom Crunch, was cut, and is remembered only by one of the Witch’s lines now.
Anytime! Not to hijack this thread, for sure though. You doubtless would have more knowledge than me, having been in more theatre shows than I have actually seen (all of this being so-called community productions…some of which earned that name and some of which were of top notch calibre).
I believe I saw a(I’ll call it a “local”) performance that was “ok” and of course the televised version with Bernadette. I had no idea any numbers had been cut. See, you already educated someone, not just in politics! π
Btw – thank you for the deep compliment re the middle way. That’s my goal – to show that it isn’t an either/or proposition (either all conspiracies are real or no conspiracies are real). Some conspiracies are very real, very important, and very worthy of much discussion!
there’s a complex of related issues that link your diary to the one i posted on Sunday. i seem to have more than an intellectual, but also an emotional block that prevents me from seeing it clearly. that aside for the moment, i want to point out the interesting inaccuracy of your diary’s title. given the enormous mass of positive feedback you received last night, the true situation is not integrity v. popularity, but integrity v. conformity to power.
this is where your diary touches on the point of my own. specifically, the way in which Kos’ power to ban serves to create an illusion of popular will. people who are banned are regularly discussed, retroactively, as trolls – as this label implies an objective basis for their exclusion. fact is, your performance last night made you a trusted user many times over.
same thing happens with banned topics. even though the vast majority of people don’t buy the official conspiracy theory on 9/11, for example, such mistrust is still regarded as a fringe perspective (with all of the negative associations of that term). as has been noted, the consensus at Dkos is manufactured.
the troll wars of not too long ago were rooted, in my opinion, exactly in this. there was (imo) a great deal of natural consensus on who the most disruptive trolls were – exactly that group of trusted users who elected themselves as cops and roamed around uprating each other and disappearing whomever they chose. but, as these people were enforcing the content limits that Kos wanted, their trollish behavior was seen through the filter of official approval. the reality gap and illusion of consensus all relate to this filter. (and the funny thing, when this one person of authority decides to ban you, it feels like the rejection of the whole community – even in a case such as yours.)
the filter of power rules over the sense of shame. apparently, it inverts that sense. take for example this comment you quote:
a funny thing about [x]: not too long ago she wrote a diary in which she repeated the al-Qaeda attacked us because they hate our freedoms meme (as quoted in this comment). Why wasn’t she too embarassed to espouse one of W’s lame rationalizations? Because W’s lie had become part of the manufactured consensus of history. ‘Everybody’ (meaning the illusionary consensus generated by systems of power) knows that’s why al-Qaeda attacked us, and there’s no shame in speaking the conventional even if it’s laughably untrue.
well, you know all this. it’s just so pervasive that i need to understand it better.
Good points, Simon.
One of the ways I learned to “spot the spook” in Kennedy assassination debates was to look for those who tried to shut down discussion, those who said, here are the facts, and they are not debateable. That’s pretty much an instant red flag to me now in any conversation.
No one can say for certain the election wasn’t stolen. Those who think they can, like one of the commenters in that thread, really make me wonder if they don’t have a more covert agenda.
Do you know what the highest rated show on the History Channel has been? “The Men Who Killed Kennedy.” There’s a hunger in the world, not for “conspiracy theories”, but for the truth about conspiracies that people know are out there.
I agree that something reeks to high heaven about a lot of the events of 9/11. I have talked with people from the entire spectrum of that debate. I’ve also been in DC and talked to people who live and work there, and from that, I’m convinced a plane hit the Pentagon, and not a missile. But I’m equally convinced that it takes a pretty big stretch of an imagination – bigger than I can do, and I’m a pretty creative person – to imagine that a guy who could barely fly a plane could do, unaided, the world-class flight manuevers that got that plane into the Pentagon. People watching on radar, who really should know, assumed the plane was doing military maneuvers.
I also believe Flight 93 was shot down. I think that’s the best explanation for why the engine and other wreckage pieces were found so far from the crash site.
I don’t believe, however, that the administration planned the whole thing, because clearly, Bush’s and Cheney’s immediate desire was to make this about Iraq. The oil companies, however, had a vested interest in getting rid of the Taliban to open up a path for the pipeline they wanted to run.
I don’t believe there was a domestic plot, but I wouldn’t put it past them. I just haven’t seen anything solid enough for me to hang my hat on it yet. And may never. I have no problem believing that bin Laden and others were smart enough and coordinated to pull this off without the help of the CIA or other such forces.
That said, I think the strongest evidence that it may have been, at least in some small part, an “inside job” is the fact that 9/11 was a day of war games that left the East Coast with less than the standard contingent of chase planes available. And one of the games included live hijackings, causing people to ask if this was “game or real world” (as recorded in the 9/11 Commission Report, a strangely written beast whose praise was singularly undeserved. It reads like a novel, and was clearly written to suppress, not encourage, discussion and knowledge of the events.)
So I think something is stinkier than a four-day-old fish (apologies to our cetacean friends). I think too that nothing would kill off the worst of the dumb theories more quickly than a far ranging, open discussion. By suppressing debate, we’re left with the stupidest, wildest-eyed theories because the reasonable ones were shut out and it’s much more fun to ridicule a theory that can’t have happened than to discuss the far more serious implications of al Qaeda being run by a triple agent who worked for our government in addition to a couple of others, for example.
“That said, I think the strongest evidence that it may have been, at least in some small part, an “inside job” is the fact that 9/11 was a day of war games that left the East Coast with less than the standard contingent of chase planes available. And one of the games included live hijackings, causing people to ask if this was “game or real world” (as recorded in the 9/11 Commission Report, a strangely written beast whose praise was singularly undeserved. It reads like a novel, and was clearly written to suppress, not encourage, discussion and knowledge of the events.)
So I think something is stinkier than a four-day-old fish (apologies to our cetacean friends). I think too that nothing would kill off the worst of the dumb theories more quickly than a far ranging, open discussion. By suppressing debate, we’re left with the stupidest, wildest-eyed theories because the reasonable ones were shut out and it’s much more fun to ridicule a theory that can’t have happened than to discuss the far more serious implications of al Qaeda being run by a triple agent who worked for our government in addition to a couple of others, for example.”
Until this country has this debate openly and without fear we will never heal.
I’m just old enough that I can remember when stories about COINTELPRO, MK ULTRA and the Tuskeegee Experiments were attacked as “conspiracy theories”. I remember all of my history books insisting Custer was a hero.
A physics professor I had once had a reply he gave whenever a bashful freshman would start a question with “I know this is probably a stupid question, but …”
He’d say, “The only stupid question is one that goes unasked.”
We are being driven down the highway to hell by monstrous people who demand we ask no questions, who demand we just settle in locked in the trunk, blind and dumb while we speed toward a cliff.
Keep asking the uncomfortable questions … it’s our only hope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_committee
I was there for the whole show. I cannot believe how many mean spirited people were there to shut down the real conversation.
I lurked there for a long, long time Lisa, and have always found your posts reasonable and interesting. More, than that, they always had the ring of truth and integrity.
When the heavy FP people arrived on the scene, I was shocked at the way __ behaved. I always loved to read him and tried to appeal to his sense of fairness, as I thought he would be so (fair). But it would not be so.
It made me sad to see ____allow himself to be injected with the Cop serum. π On the other hand mybe I mis-read him and he was always like that. Kos groupie?
I am simply stunned that the two of you were banned and wonder in retrospect why I was not as well as I was heavily recommending the both of you.
When I called out that DhinH (whatever it is) for being a bully a couple of them came after me too. But as bullies are ususally cowards, he didn’t wish to speak to me directly in his own defense. He let the girls do it. lol
Please know Lisa, I’ve always respected what you have had to say. Please don’t stop talking.
Bobblehed, same goes for you. I’ve not had the opportunity to see much of your work until the most recent “Trouble in River City”.
Just an FYI, Mike Molloy, on his AA radio broadcast was all over this last night. He was calling out Kos for banning folks who dared speak out about election reform and the 9/11 thing. I’ve never heard of the guy nor listened to his stuff. I just saw them talking about it at the other place.
You can go to his site and hear the broadcast, it shows up in archives. I’m D/Ling it now but I’m on dial-up so it will be a while before I can hear it. lol
When I called out that DhinH (whatever it is) for being a bully a couple of them came after me too. But as bullies are ususally cowards, he didn’t wish to speak to me directly in his own defense. He let the girls do it. lol
Yes, I note he now has Menendez groupies. I read one of them pathetically trying to spin bullying as a positive strength yesterday and almost puked.
Just an FYI, Mike Molloy, on his AA radio broadcast was all over this last night. He was calling out Kos for banning folks who dared speak out about election reform and the 9/11 thing. I’ve never heard of the guy nor listened to his stuff. I just saw them talking about it at the other place.
Thank you so much for this bit of information. I’ll download it. I’ve some information to send to Mike Molloy.
I was there for the beginning and got so angry I had to walk away. I really appreciated your support Lisa. And I’ve always appreciated your comments.
This is my very first post on this site. I came here today to hang out & see how I liked it. I’ve been feeling so alienated lately at DK. Often I just have to turn off the comments & stick to reading the diaries that interest me.
I am delighted to discover this discussion and to see so many familiar names that seem to have been lost from DK. I think DK is becoming a victim of its own success. It matters too much to Kos what other people will think. And neutralizing DK matters too much to the dark side. Sad.
Incidentally, I don’t consider myself a CT (although my husband would disagree). The thing is, anyone who’s paying attention is either a Coincidence Theorist or a Conspiracy Theorist. I’m just skeptical of coincidence.
So, I think I like the people here. I definitely appreciate the tolerance here. I like the way DK works better (hate having to click Rate All and lose my place). I’m horrified to see a dishonest front page ad against net neutrality. So, I may hang here or not. Still undecided.
Lisa, keep up the good work. Non illegitimati carborundum, which an old friend claims means “Don’t let the bastards grind you down.”
This is a good place. Lots of good writing. And a kindler, gentler place, for the most part. I hope it stays that way. I was told when I first joined that the basic rule here was, “don’t be a prick.” I think that’s a pretty fabulous rule.
Welcome. Look around. Indeed, many familiar faces.
Hi, BurnetO. I hope you enjoy your visit and that it turns into a long stay. If you want to meet people, visit the Froggy Bottom Cafe and introduce yourself. It’s a friendly pond, and it’s open 24 hours a day. While you’re there, ask about the Robo-Rater that Omir invented which allows us to blanket 4 any diary.
to close out with reminding people that there are good writers there still. I say that as well, though I was not banned, I simply left (without the self indulgent GBCW Diary either…though since I mostly wrote humorous stuff, it would have been hysterical..maybe I’ll write it here one day).
I logged onto DKos for the first time in about a week and half today, because of another poster here on BT that referenced Kos’ own recent (today?) on bannings. I saw some familiar names, I saw a co-authored diary by John Kerry and Russ Feingold. When I didn’t see the diary in question in a few minutes time, I left.
Why? I just felt like it was not a place I wanted to linger. I never wrote though provoking arguments on Ohio or even Florida, or any other “controversial” subject. But I certainly read them, and watch the conflagrations that would erupt. But you have to have that! You can’t stomp out peoples arguments with a simple banning, as other posters have put it more eloquent words, the dandelion is just going to pop up somewhere else. Stronger. And proliferate.
I think your writing will be a great addition to this much more receptive atmosphere.
I must be the only one in the blogosphere not to know, but what the heck does – oh wait – I think I juuuuuust got it. GBCW. Goodbye Cruel World!
you Lisa, great Diary. Good seeing you here Sidewinder.
Thanks for the great diary.
I’m one who has been perpetually labeled with the CT awards and I don’t mind, usually. It was more frustrating at first but even now, it’s usually part of a ‘keep a safe distance from him’ in a community. I’m not saying everyone does, because I’ve come to know many fantastic people here and at MLW. I’ve always respected your work and the courage it takes to against the tide.
My previously high level of respect for Boo and the pond has also increased with what I’ve seen lately in a more lurkerly mode.
True objectivity ensures only that everyone will be pissed at one time or another.
I agree that seeing the failure to at least consider possibilities is a sign of manipulation or control. I understand that we all have some type of agenda, or we wouldn’t be doing this, but truth, integrity and compassion have to be part of our shared goals.
Well said, Rumi. And to be fair – I’m sure the people on Kos think the truth supports their point of view. I don’t really think they’re deliberately deceiving, by any means. I just think they’ve fallen for stuff I wouldn’t fall for, and I feel the site is the poorer for it.
The atmosphere of these forums allows forces of manipulation to work in subtle ways among genuinely trusting people. This factor is always possible but an inaccurate accusation can sometimes do more harm. Like you said, different perspectives of the same situation and all held passionately.
Compassion and cooperation will welcome sincere but contrasting opinion as long the general goals coincide. I have trouble understanding the need to cast out allies who differ on more minor points.
I pre-emptively banned myself before registration…;-) It just made sense to spend the energy elsewhere.
You were banned for that? You know, I’ve been tring to give the Kossacks-in-power the benefit of the doubt, but this is just too much.
You behaved like a champ last night Lisa, I read the whole interaction between you and that Poinick (sp?) person and your patience in dealing with him was commendable.
Please continue to post here!
Thanks. I sure felt like I was being restrained! π There’s a lot more I would have said in a public forum, as opposed to in their private house. My feeling is it shows how tenuous they feel their position is, that they feel the need to ban an opposing voice. If they were confident they were right, there’d be no reason to ban those sentiments.
Real tough to figure out who “poiuynick” is.
No wonder you were banned, Lisa.
Yes boys and girls…can you spell sockpuppet? ;o)
Poi, according to Wiki, means two things, food, or juggling. Take the second meaning and add it to “uynich” (eunich), and you have a juggling victim of castration. Hmmmm. Juggling two identities perhaps? And being castrated by er….being outed perhaps?
So yeah, not too hard to figure out who poiyunick is.
ok now that makes me feel better, cause i was thinking the same thing.
(damn shift keys only work when they want too)
the late, great, one himself?
Did you REALLY think he was going to give up blogging? LOL.
nope.
Well, if that were true – that would explain a lot about that thread! And I’d have to commend Armando for keeping his temper as long as he did. π
This explains a lot. Take a look at the mid-thread discussion I started at DailyKos, Was Armando really outed, where the mysrerious poiuynick (DKOS userid=91239) makes an appearance.
poiuynick is sure blogging his heart out over at DailyKos.
He sure is. He pops up, out of nowhere and dives right into fraud diaries, A’s favorite pet peeve before his “outing”. Th exchange that you linked to above is really curious. Poiuynick does sound a lot like Armando trying not to sound like Armando. Part of me wants to stop speculating about this, because it feels like I’m wasting time on something that’s ultimately unimportant in the big picture. But the spy novel fan in me can’t quite let it go ;o).
It is sort of fun, isn’t it. π
okay, I’ll bite… yeah, I’d bet it’s him. Too hard to hide a style of communicating (incl. grammar usage, or lack thereof) especially as you start to get pissed off.
Couple that with the fierce defense of this newbie poster by the FP’s in the diary RHL was banned in (while everyone else in there was calling him a troll – kinda funny if you think about it… what the reaction to Armando’s style is when his name isn’t attached to it…) and well…
inconsequential for sure, but I do love my mysteries… π
Oh man. Did we just out him? π
This dude can’t spell very well and neither could Armando.
Actually he was already outed upthread. We’re just upping the probability a bit.
That’s over THERE. We’re over HERE.
Let’s ALL of us (one finger out, three back) quit feeding the trolls.
They ain’t worth it. They may play that way but we don’t have to, and I think we saw pretty clearly yesterday the difference between the way the heavy-duty kossacks do things and the way we do it. We’re better than that, and better without that.
Most of the time, anyway.
And by the way would someone clean that kettle? It’s lookin’ kinda dingy from over inside this here saucepan…
62 comments on 6/19. Who has time for that?
Well, you know what Yogi Berra once said: “It’s impossible for a zebra to change his spots.”
This is one of the most amazing posts I’ve ever seen!
The diary in question is: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/18/10521/5585.
Tending toward the compulsive about things like this, I went through that entire huge comment thread (off a brilliant diary by Steven D about the stolen election) and counted how many times Lisa posted, how many times she was rated a 4, and how many times she was troll-rated.
Here are the numbers for the 4s (as of midnight Monday):
34 + 79 + 7 + 2 + 33 + 32 + 19 + 1 + 4 + 21 + 17 + 2 + 4 + 1 + 19 + 17 + 2 + 4 + 1 + 19 + 17 + 11 + 24 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 6 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 10 + 6 + 4 + 3 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 7 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 6 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 3 + 16.
Maybe I made a small mistake in addition, but that is FIVE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIVE 4’s — AND THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE TROLL RATING!!!!
And still the assholes banned her, because they cannot tolerate talk of a stolen election, even if delivered in measured tones, with much data, by a scholar like Lisa.
Assholes!!
And why do you suppose they suppress this topic? Let’s be straight here. Kos himself is in it for the money, and that topic threatens his bottom line.
My wife and I have spent a lot of time studying cults. Daily Kos is a classic example of a cult. It is false.
Booman is trying to straddle things. It’s painful to watch. His orange vs. green post today was really awful to behold, in my humble opinion.
I think it’s time to call a spade a spade. Daily Kos is evil. It’s an evil experiment in group think and thought control. It’s time for real Democrats to abandon that false god, as I did 15 months ago.
Booman, please don’t stomp on me for this post. The evidence here with Real History Lisa is hard to deny.
thanks for doing the math. very interesting.
I don’t feel Kos is evil. Misguided, naive, sure. Not evil. Unless I’m way off, but I think not.
But yes. I don’t know that I ever got that many points from a single post, but I got so many positive comments in that thread it was pretty astounding to wake up and find (of course with no note) that I could no longer post or comment or rate there.
I collect things like dictionaries and quotation books, and George Seldes’s quotation book is the best. I wonder if anyone else here reads Seldes.
Yeah, sure, nobody wants to use the word “evil.” Few want to examine what a “cult” is.
Just imagine I got all constipated and said the same thing in a lot of polysyllabic academic words.
Well – I took a class in cults in college – nice college, to offer such a class! π And it doesn’t fit the classic requirements entirely – it doesn’t isolate its followers from their normal lives (except, perhaps, their online lives). It doesn’t physically contain them, as classic cults do. So again – I understand what you’re saying, but I do think that’s taking it too far. It’s not a cult. It’s a bunch of centrists who don’t understand, or don’t want to understand, the deeper subcurrents of history that might help them to see things in a different light. I really think it’s that simple.
Oh good grief! Stop being so reasonable! <just kidding>
Well – I took a class in cults in college – nice college, to offer such a class! π And it doesn’t fit the classic requirements entirely – it doesn’t isolate its followers from their normal lives (except, perhaps, their online lives). It doesn’t physically contain them, as classic cults do. So again – I understand what you’re saying, but I do think that’s taking it too far. It’s not a cult. It’s a bunch of centrists who don’t understand, or don’t want to understand, the deeper subcurrents of history that might help them to see things in a different light. I really think it’s that simple.
get that many points – roughly, at least. i checked.
Pretty wild. I totalled 477, in Excel (copy and paste). Still, not bad at all!
I might have been off by a few, but no way I was off by 48. Just saying.
i dont think kos is evil either…to me its like walmart….the big guys with everything i need in one place and mostly lower prices….i hate their policies but i admit i sneak over there occasionally to get what i need/want.
i am also banned at dailykos.
Are you sure you’re banned, Lisa?
DailyKos does have major site problems that could lead one to believe that one is banned.
Yep – I confirmed that.
Ok, just checking–I could see how somebody could think they were banned due to site problems, though.
Something tells me that Kos is undertaking another wave of bannings. Honestly, I cannot imagine who is left to ban! Most everybody there with a scintilla of independent thought has either gone quiet, left of their own accord, or been shut out, as you have.
As for me, I haven’t a sycophantic bone in my body, which is why I never registered as a DKos user and therefore cannot be banned. Kos can’t kick me out of the treehouse and take away my decoder ring if I never joined in the first place!
First, is this an implicit position or has Kos explicitely stated, in the past, that he would not tolerate such talk without cold-hard proof? Secondly, do you believe it DKos is the property of Markos and he has the right to run it as he pleases?
Oh please. These are not questions from somebody who really wants dialogue. You know the answers to both of these purely rhetorical and bogus questions, and it does not affect the thrust of this discussion in any way.
It’s really weird the insecurity and cultishness of the Kos groupies who feel a need to come over here and stand up for the great leader.
For the record, as to the first question, Kos rarely intervenes at this level. He lets his henchmen act, and he exercises apparently no control. He’s completely responsible, whatever he explicitly says. As to the second question, please study logic 101. Obviously it’s his web site (with whatever silent partners he may have) and he has the rights any owner has over a web site. But what does that have to do with anything? He’s still wide open to criticism if people think he’s an asshole.
Sorry to hear you were banned, but from my perspective, it was only a matter of time.
As for the ‘two who shall not be named’, they should both be ashamed of themselves for thier lack of standing on principles. I’ve had interactions with them both and this just disgusts me…. but I must admit, have been waiting to happen since they became part of the ‘Kos elite’. For shame you two. For shame. What happened to ‘love of country and the Constitution’? Pshaw, it seems to have only been lip service.
Keep speaking truth to power, keep writing books and articles, and screw the Netroots Fox. Sheeple are sheeple and eventually they may come around.
btw – I check out your blog irregularly, but don’t comment… just wanted to let you know that I always appreciate your well reasoned and studyed take on the issues.
Thanks for that. I wish I had more time to blog, personally. I’ve taken to just commenting when the mood strikes, because – as you all know – writing a long post takes time. And I am so tired by the time I write it I don’t spell check, and then I hate it, and yada yada. A painful process. I’m always impressed by those who manage to do it regularly, and well, like Booman and Steven D. and many others here and elsewhere.
It’s nice to know that even without comments, people are paying attention. I’ve given up a lot of my life, and have to believe some good has come from that. It’s definitely cost me, in a lot of ways, and I’m not talking money. But it’s very rewarding to feel like you’re helping the greater good. It’s pretty fabulous, now and then.
They’re the “emereti”!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/5/16141/54195
Does that make catnip a BT emereta?
Not to be confused with amaretto.
Is it vodka:30 yet?
It’s 1700 SOMEWHERE, we’re everywhere, and we never close. Who’s buying?
Emereti drink for free!
As to “semi-celebrity bloggers”!
To themselves and each other they’re emeriti.
To me they’re much more like emetics.
Drink the cheapest stuff you can get around them, because it won’t be around long.
By the way, regarding the Kennedy assassination, it was Carlos Marcello, the Mafia don of New Orleans. I feel quite certain about this, and I’m very skeptical about conspiracy theories. I was told about this by a high ranking Justice Department official who handled some dealings between Robert Kennedy and Marcello, which are worthy of many novels and movies. And I later did a bit of research on my own.
Oswald and Ruby were both on the Marcello payroll, and Marcello had a BIG reason to hate the Kennedys.
Marcello was born in Sicily and was brought into the United States by parents who never bothered to apply for his immigration; therefore he was technically an illegal alien, although he had lived here virtually all of his life. The Kennedys were frustrated because a very great immigration lawyer (Jack Wasserman) kept defeating their efforts to deport Marcello. Finally, RFK ordered Marcello to be arrested illegally and flown to the middle of a jungle in Guatemala, where they dropped him off after this illegal deportation. Marcello almost died many times from spiders, snakes, alligators, and dehydration on his very long walk back to the United States, and he swore revenge. This is all verifiable.
The CIA had nothing to do with it.
By the way, Marcello’s trademark was personally going out to shacks on remote bayous, hanging enemies on a hook, and then suspending and dissolving them in barrels of lye while still alive. In the neighborhoods of New Orleans, he was considered good with babies.
I have no intention of debating the Kennedy assassination in a comment, or anywhere online anymore – been there, done that, got too many t-shirts to wear.
But let me say that after 15 years of research, looking at the records from the CIA, FBI, INS, etc. – it’s my firm conclusion that only elements very close to the government could pull off what amounts to a 40+ year cover-up.
I’ve written extensively on this case, and made a case for the personal involvement of James Angleton, among others. You can read this in the book Jim DiEugenio and I compiled, based on articles written for the journal we co-published, the book The Assassinations.
Btw – please note that government employees lie to each other. I can’t tell you how many have come to me with “secret knowledge” which usually turned out to be crap. The tellers were sincere, but they had themselves been misled.
Your link doesn’t work.
My information comes straight from Robert F. Kennedy, but there’s obviously no point to this debate, from which you have grown tired without reaching the answer.
You are, however, correct about the election theft, in my opinion, and I hope you will pursue that vigorously.
Oh, I’ve reached an answer. If that link doesn’t work (www.theassassinations.com) then go to Amazon and search my name to find the book. The answers are in there, and believe me, that’s not what Robert Kennedy thought, as David Talbot’s upcoming book will make more than clear.
Thank you. That was interesting. I read everything about you and your works on Amazon, and much of your web site. You’re heavily invested in one school of the JFK CT, and that’s okay. Knowing my sources, I’m quite confident that I’m right and you’re wrong, but I don’t have the chops to prove it. And I’ll stop there, because I’m not going to describe my sources, although I’m sure they’re better than Talbot’s.
However, as I said, I really think you’re right on the election theft, and wish you the best.
I am always enlightened by your comments and the depth of your historical knowledge.
Being banned at Kos has become a badge of honor.
Thanks. It’s a dubious honor, but as I said, it is certainly more important for me to stand by my comment than it is to be accepted by a crowd I pretty much disagree with on a lot of issues!
Well, d*mn it, just what I didn’t want to read this morning.
Lisa, I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m not! I pretty much wasted the entire day Sunday in that thread. Life’s too short and too precious to waste in endless circles online with people who don’t even care – that was my argument re the troll in that thread. And people who shared his viewpoint just couldn’t, or wouldn’t, for reasons about which we could only speculate, see it.
Believe me Lisa, that at least from my point of view, it wasn’t a waste of time. No where in their long, drawn out attack of you, were you knocked down, or made to look bad. You took on, let’s see, one, two three front pagers, a discredited, and paid shill for Mitofsky, and possibly another front pager cloaked as a troll. Not a bad day’s work on your part.
If everyone took them on, they’d have to change their ways! π
I hear where Lisa’s coming from though! No more blog wars! It’s just a time suckage, not to mention a huge emotional drain.
Supersoling, are you saying that Kos allows frontpagers to have sockpuppets–perhaps even multiple sockpuppets!–on his site?
Why…that’s against the rules!.
Say it ain’t so, Kos. Say it ain’t so.
I think the sockies are fairly common on many sites. I’ve always wondered though, that as ad rates sales and income are based primarily on page views, when the day would come that advertisers ban their usage.
Strange irony and justice, perhaps.
in their endeavors and had integrity playing a large role in it all from the beginning, you display heaping quantities of precious maturity and enough ageless wisdom that there is plenty to share. If this has caused you any personal discomfort please accept my giant hug across the web. I love your site and I am inspired by your work to continue to seek the truths in my own life and look upon them fearlessly. I am blessed that you share this space with me! Rock on Lisa!
Wow, what a great comment to start the day with. Thanks! No I must away, to the shower! π
I’m sorry you were banned Lisa. I fail to see what purpose that serves. In my mind all it does it force groupthink at Kos down everyone’s throat.
to hate dk. If they are, they will surely find one. Markos has written a diary that talks about the site problems currently going on. He states there are alot of system errors. Many people THINK they are banned, but it could be site problems. People should chill till errors get resolved.
Yeah, well I confirmed that I had, in fact, been banned.
Was there a particular reason for the ban?
Other than you’re logical, intelligent, well-spoken, courteous, and strongly supported an opinion?
Lisa didn’t agree with Kos’ version of reality.
From Page 11 of the Kos Rulebook:
You’re funny. And since this is my first comment in this thread I would add that dkos has just lost one more fine diarist.
Who knew “Alice in Wonderland” and “Through the Looking Glass” would end up being used as manuals for running a community blog?
Wait…am I “funny ha-ha” or “funny” as in “you distract him while I get the men in white coats”?
Because I’m cool with either/both.
The one book, on the table next to my bed.
I try to give dems the benefit of the doubt.
The closest I could get to a reason was having called out the site moderators per the comment in my post above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Select_Committee_on_Assassinations
I guess those serving on the Church Committee were nuts, and one of their primary opponents, Donald Rumsfeld, was right.
And of course those nuts in the House…people like Congressman Harold Ford, Senior, of Tennessee–also “nuts”.
Nuts are healthy – full of protein. There’s nothing healthy about Rumsfeld, on any level!
Church Committee hearings, 1975.
Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld argue vociferously in favor of secret police-style tactics.
Fast forward 30 years, and the exact men control the American government, instituting the fascist policies they advocated all those years ago.
It took them all these decades to unfold their plan, but at last they’ve done it.
Now what are we going to do about it?
Without, please, getting into the “why” you were banned, can people please tell me HOW they KNOW they are banned? I hear a lot of people saying they are banned now for speaking up. Wouldn’t put it past Kos. But how do you know when you’ve been banned?
Do you get an e-mail confirming it?
Is it a result of ratings (being troll-rated) or is it an executive decision?
Or is it that you just find you can no longer post and so assume you are banned (as opposed to the site our your account being on the fritz)?
What’s the protocol for banning?
Claims of being banned are coming from credible people who are supposedly peing punished for saying something unpopular (rather than something mean or trollish). I have no reason not to believe people, but I guess I’d just like more concrete evidence of these purges. Either from those banned or from kos himself.
I’m hesitant to buy it not because I don’t believe the people claiming it, but because I’ve come out in support of communism over there and have not been banned. Though my TU status is being questionably controlled (don’t post and it comes back, post and get recs and it goes away…)
Kos is the only one who has the power to administratively ban–although front-pagers and attack dogs often recommend people for banning and Kos does it without questioning their recommendation.
Also, Kos introduced the technique of “auto-banning”. If somebody receives a lot of troll ratings, they will be automatically banned without any conscious decision by him.
Of course, this latter decision unleashed rampant vigilantism and bullying on DKos, with Armando leading a pack of “trusted users” who troll-rated many people off the site.
In the same week that Armando withdrew from blogging due to “other reasons”, Kos amended the policy and restricted “trusted users” to two troll-ratings per day, and set a higher bar for people to be auto-banned via troll ratings–a tacit acknowledgement that the critics were correct and that his earlier decision to allow vigilantism was spectacularly bad.
Then I know of at least one person who claimed to be banned for speaking out but who was also troll rated for a nasty comment (which deserved to be troll rated but was not really grounds for being banned). So they were probably “auto-banned.”
Glad kos did something about that awful feature…
a tacit acknowledgement that the critics were correct and that his earlier decision to allow vigilantism was spectacularly bad.
The problem with this is that Kos has condoned and encouraged vigilantism and abusive bullying on his site by his selection of FP posters. Vigilantism has become an integral part of how they manage the site. The ratio of DK dittoheads to reasonably sane adults is becoming increasingly unbalanced. Dana is a pathogenic vector in the social structure there and it’s been and remains fascinating to observe his slow, patient work of reducing DK to what Dana’s beloved petey once envisioned as an Army of Dittoheads.
I had to email someone who was in touch with the moderators. I really wanted to know why, of course. I was grateful someone was willing to ask around for me.
Hello everyone, this is my first post to this site and only like my second visit. I have just spent a couple of hours reading some diaries and posts, I like what I see and recognize many from MLW. I just wanted to share a little bit about my experience since finding the blogosphere last August. Blogs were a new world to me and I did not realize that certain sites required certain etiquette. I did not realize certain topics could not be discussed on some sites. I ‘joined’ a couple and in my enthusiasm started talking my Truth. I really did not see it coming, I mean really, did not see it coming. I was naive and am now really hesitant to post some of my thoughts on various subjects. In my very first post on a site I introduced myself as ‘a CT and proud of it’, The Truth. I laugh at myself now, I now see how totally offensive that must have been to a majority of the people. Like I must have been like a train smashing into their house. I only post now in ‘safe’ places, where people seem to accept me for who I am. This site seems to me to be a safe place and if I offend you all…tell me to get my train out of your house. Excellent diary Lisa.
Welcome aboard! Not many topics are off limits here so feel free to splash away in the pond.
Oh, and check out the Froggy bottom Cafe’s… some fine folks there and a great place to get to know people.
Thanks for the welcome, perhaps my analogy should have been an alligator getting into the pond π (but I am not an alligator..serious)
oh, offend right away. I piss off poor Booman at least once a week.
Heh. Is it so seldom?
I’ve been slacking, I see!
π
Rules are not well communicated, I fear, on some blogs. What can be said, what cannot be said.
I mean, if people want to enforce rules, they need to be super clear, reiterated on a regular basis, and in my opinion, there should always be a gentle warning the first time, if someone is overstepping the bounds. A little hey, that comment/post was unacceptable for the following reasons. That’s bannable, etc.
Here’s what I think Kos should do to rescue his site from becoming some monotone recitation of an increasingly small set of points:
It might make it harder to get rid of trolls. But on the other hand, the easiest way to get rid of trolls is to ignore them. It’s hard. I know. I’ve been sucked into responding as much as anyone. But it really does work. People who are made to feel they don’t exist go to places where they feel they DO exist.
I agree. I am upset that you were banned and I registered my displeasure. I can’t do anything more. A warning, at a minimum, would have been nice.
You are a good man, Booman. Thanks for that.
Thing is, for many cliques, clarity of the rules is NOT what’s wanted.
What’s wanted is a set of flexible “rules” which will apply to some and not to others, will allow certain conduct from some and not from others, will ALWAYS provide some rationalization for the ejection of anyone considered “not really one of US.”
The best way to deal with `mission statements’ and such is to regard them as the PR BS they are, and look to the actions of the organization. See how they REALLY operate and the TRUE goals will become obvious. The rest is spin.
They can’t clean up the rules. To do so would be to acknowledge that they really do have taboo topics. That would look bad. Like being against free speech.
Explicitly, they do their mojo-mumbo-jumbo, which is 80% bullshit. When I first joined over there I collected many a “4” and nothing lower. After a couple of months I started thinking “Where’s my TU status? I’m really curious about those hidden comments.”
I formed a theory that it was because I’d only posted one diary, but then I came across TU’s who’d never posted any diaries. I dropped out for awhile, and when I came back it seemed like the place had been taken over by hall monitors. Gradually it began to dawn on me that — because I had posted an occasional comment on election-theft or 9/11-inconsistencies/coincidences — I was never going to be a TU.
In my experience, people have a hard enough time admitting OFFLINE that they believe in conspiracy theories, so successful have the discreditation operations been to make that a bad word (like “liberal”). People come to me in whispered tones. I told someone I had received death threats and she physically pulled back from me, as if just being in my presence put her at risk. I tried to explain to her those who kill, just kill, and don’t warn first, and that no one should fear death threats. They’re designed to scare, not warn. But it didn’t matter. Her fear of ‘dangerous knowledge’ kicked in – it was like watching a deer in the headlights.
So what’s really painful to me is to see people come out of that shell of fear, only to be routed back into it by, of all people, the very ones who are supposed to be our allies for truth, justice, and the American way. That has to be a lot more threatening than being scared by the enemy. When you’re threatened by friends, where can you turn?
That’s one of the reason I won’t back down. I try to give whatever cover I can to those less strong. We need to take care of each other. I love those who have helped me along the way, and all those who rained down graciousness on me in this thread. It all helps. Thanks.
And I meant to add, hello Mary, and thanks for the comments!
Welcome!
Lisa, thank you so much for being a person of Integrity! Our world and certainly our country needs far more people like you.
I am continually amazed at how many folks cannot or will not tolerate disagreement. It is part of who we are as individuals. We all hold our own versions of what is truth for us. Are “we” so very weak that we cannot stand to have anyone hold a differing view? Apparently. I have found for myself, no matter how much I might disagree with someone’s differing view, there is often something of value in what they have to say. Seldom do we convince others to our point of view when they hold an opposing view. I don’t really think that is our job here. But when we are open enough to allow everyone their viewpoint, and we are willing to seriously consider what they have to say, often we find ourselves learning or expanding our own understandings of things.
Brava to you for standing in your integrity! And thank you for offering us your valuable knowledge and insights. I would say it is dkos’s loss not to have your voice heard their.
Hugs
Shirl
Thanks. It ain’t easy to stand up to peer pressure, but sometimes, it’s the most important thing.
I so loved V for Vendetta, in part because of the way it dealt with integrity. Quoting from the film (although I think these are Moore’s words verbatim):
Love that. Loved the film.
…it’s all that we really have…
I long for that edit button..!
…and the rest of the reference:
For me personally, it is always the most important.
I have just posted a diary which discusses this diary and your banning. It got way to long for the comments section. I love your comments on dkos yesterday and am quite disappointed that you were banned. That said I think there is an epidemic in this community of being banned from dkos. In my diary I argue that this does not have to be. Because in my diary I discuss yours I wanted to make you aware.
Thanks – I’ll go check it out. I think it’s always important to discuss what kinds of posts and people should, and shouldn’t, be banned.
…and when his pitch was turned down, he deleted his diary. Nice. That’s two now, or three diaries actually, that’ve been pulled by authors who didn’t like the feedback they got. Pathetic.
pathetic, i agree, and irritating to lose all those comments.
I saved a copy of all the comments which I will happily share with anybody (unless that isn’t kosher). Send me an email:
lostcomments at carriest dot com
I was in the middle of posting a comment – agreeing with kansas’ appreciation of your presence here, Simon – when the diary vanished.
I’ve taken to archiving EVERY diary in which I comment after the “deletion debacles”–just in case.
It’s a pain in the ass, but what isn’t, nowadays?
It was because of the feedback, but not because I didn’t like it. Everyone repeatedly said that they were banned not because of the manner in which they made a point, but because of what they said. So my diary appeared to be adressing a non-issue. On top of that there were several other diaries on the same issue. So I didn’t believe I was contributing to the discussion. If you have the same diary issues here that exist on dkos, I thought it would be helpful.
I can repost the whole damn thing if you like, but it seemed to be adressing an issue that didn’t exist.
Eugene:
It is EXTREMELY poor etiquette, and a gross violation of ordinary courtesy, to delete a diary on which many have taken time to comment.
Since you are the one preaching etiquette, that doesn’t reflect very well on you, does it?
I deleted the diary because many said that the it was not the manner in which they made their points on dkos that was the issue, but the content. So I felt my diary addressed and issue that did not exist. That and their are endless diaries on dkos. Didn’t realize it was such poor etiquette. Won’t happen again.
I’m sorry this happened to you. But as you say, not having to fight the same battles over and over with the same people will enable you to devote your energy to other things. On the issues you care most deeply about, the “Overton window” can only be moved so far on that site, but it’s America that is your real target. Although dkos seems like a great medium through which to reach a wide spectrum of people, it started small. As more people fan out across the blogosphere, sites like this one will grow.
Great point. There are a ton of blogs I’ve visited only rarely, that are worth revisiting. In fact, a lot of the best posts on Kos originated somewhere else and were cross-posted there.
That’s why I left the alt.conspiracy.jfk group. I realized 1) I had reached a lot of people already, and 2) it was important to get the data out in a new way. So I worked with Jim DiEugenio on Probe magazine. And that led to a book. And that led to a ton of radio appearances, and ultimately to TV as well. Yep. You can bet I’m still looking for new ways to reach out. I’ve written a screenplay on electronic voting that I’m starting to shop around. There are many, many venues to get the word out to people. I’m trying a lot of them.
night. He spoke on Cheney and false info for war.
night. He spoke on Cheney and false info for war.
A very good, VERY smart friend of mine who once worked for a national intelligence agency actually used the term false flag operation in relation to 9-11. He didn’t point any fingers or name any names, he simply said too much didn’t add up and actually used the term False Flag in our conversation when I asked him point blank what he really thought happened.
Lisa, I’ve loved your writing, your digging and your ability to link increasingly disparate pieces of information together. I look forward to continuing to read your stuff.
You go girl!
Thanks, NorthCountry. And now I SO want to meet your friend!!
The people closest to what really goes on are the biggest realists there are, in terms of conspiracies. They know, because in some cases, they’ve been a part of them.
Really appreciate your comments.
Well, let me wish you well, in all sincerity, Lisa, but let me also say that I too have had to court unpopularity to maintain my integrity as you know.
Joining up dots can sometimes give you the right picture, but it can also give you a very wrong one.
Concluding, as I did, that the 2004 exit poll data do not indicate fraud, and, in fact, contra-indicate it, was not a conclusion I particularly wished to reach. But if we go into investigations with open minds, we reach conclusions indicated by our data, not conclusions indicated by our desires. Sometimes those conclusions are wrong, nonetheless. Certainty is a luxury researchers with integrity are denied.
Peace.
Lizzie
Yep, Lizzie. That’s why your posts offended me – your certainty. It’s just math. It’s not the be all and end all, and I find your methods questionable, at best. But I’d like to have a thread that you didn’t feel the need to turn into a discussion of exit polls. That’s troll behavior.
Not a discussion of exit polls. A discussion of integrity.
As I said, peace.
Integrity is doing what you say.
You say others should not have certainty. But then you claim that for yourself.
Yes. It’s indeed about integrity.
Well, let me say now: yes, I have reached my conclusions with a high degree of confidence (but we won’t discuss them here).
But I agree with you: in science, all conclusions are provisional. I am not certain of my conclusions. It’s why, in statistics, we give probability values. In this instance the p value is extremely small.
But the point of my post was not my conclusions; it was to tell you that the experience of eschewing popularity in order to maintain one’s integrity is one that I happen to share with you.
We may disagree. I respect your integrity, nonetheless. And the conclusions you reached about mine are in error.
“In science, all conclusions are provisional.”
So…the conclusion that the Sun is hot, ice is cold, and a tennis ball, if dropped from my hand while standing on Earth, will fall to the ground, are tentative?
Seems some things are known beyond a doubt in science.
Quite honestly, if the election had been so obviously rigged in any other country as it was in Florida in 2000 an Ohio in 2004, millions would have taken to the streets in protest, and brought the government down.
It is the shame of America that we did not.
Yes, certainly. Or at least the theory that predicts the behaviour is tentative. Newton got the tennis ball thing pretty well right. But not quite right. It took Einstein to figure out that it wasn’t quite right. And of course it isn’t. The tennis ball certainly ends up on the ground, but to a tiny extent, the earth also falls towards the tennis ball. Space-time also warps.
As for the election, I really don’t want to derail Lisa’s thread, and in any case, I think that Florida and Ohio both stink (and New Mexico, FWIW). My position is simply that there is no evidence of hyper fraud – popular vote-winning-scale fraud, and actually, strong evidence against it.
And yes, millions should have taken to the streets in protest in November 2004. Being a nerd (and a Brit), I downloaded spreadsheets instead.
And I agree with Lisa: when the choice comes between popularity and integrity, there is no real choice.
From Febble:
“no evidence” – not “there doesn’t appear to be any evidence,” but “no evidence”. Sounds pretty certain, right?
Also from Febble:
I couldn’t agree more.
Backstory:
I have been suspicious of Febble since the first time I read her math, having done some statistical work in my past. Maybe I’m wrong. I don’t think so. We have argued at great length over many posts in the past – many more than she seems to remember.
She comes here with a post that to an outsider might appear to be nice and gentle, but she was really trying to stick it to me, suggesting that my certainty proved I had no integrity. But I leave you to read what she has written, and what I have written.
As the saying says, “one may smile a smile and be a villain.” To quote from the same Sondheim show mentioned above, this time quoting little Red Riding Hood, after her encounter with the Wolf posing as her Grandma:
Anyone who followed the results of the 04 election, like me, should be familiar with who Febble is. And it was clear to me why she was here. She actually showed up in StevenD’s diary at dKos about the Kennedy article where Armando/Poiyunick went off the deep end on Steven and threatened more mass bannings. Sure enough, at the end of the diary discussion, there was Febble to tell Armando/Poiyunick how right he was.
Yes, I remember Febble very well. I remember her tangling with the commenter Truth Is All at DU. I think it was there that she first revealed her name, and that she was a payed employee of Warren Mitofsky, the pollster who defended the exit poll discrepencies, and defended the absurd notion that republicans really were shy about revealing that they voted for Bush when polled outside the voting booth, (exit polls) thereby helping to whitewash the biggest electoral crime in US history. Funny then that this morning Red Dan at dKos was claiming that you were banned for outing Febble. She outed herself, just like Armando/Poiyunick outed himself.
She outed herself in a diary just a couple of days before, too.
Yeah – follow the chain. Chaing gangs, if you will.
Guys, I have never been “in” – how could I be “outed”?
Anyone could click on my profile and get my email, which includes my name. I have even, on DU, included the information that I analysed data for Mitofsky, in my signature.
There is no chain gang. There is simply a pursuit of truth.
But being a human being, as well as wishing to defend what I see as the truth, I have a human desire to defend myself against slurs on my moral and intellectual integrity – just as I would defend yours.
Elizabeth Liddle
Funny thing. I covered a bunch of polling places on election day, 2004 — story about the VERY long lines in some places and the very short ones in others — and wound up running into the same TV crew several times. They were doing an informal exit poll… no statistical validity, merely a “sniff on the street” thing.
What I noticed: At the heavily Democratic precincts, the people who’d voted for Kerry were friendly; the Bush voters seemed mostly to want to get out of there as quickly as possible, preferably without speaking to anyone and DEFINITELY without being photographed. At the Republican precincts, the Kerry supporters were quiet and polite, but there were a LOT of very aggressively rude, threatening people…
I asked one of the reporters (a Faux guy, as it happened) how they counted “go fuck yourself” in their poll. “Check their bumper stickers. The polite ones are Democrats. The assholes have Bush stickers, so we mark them that way.”
It is amazing how clear people are about things about which they have very shaky evidence.
Sure I tangled with TruthIsAll. Sure I outed myself. Sure I disagree with those who think that the exit poll discrepancy could not have been due to differential non-response. I think it could, and I think it was.
This does not make me a conspirator. It makes me a woman with a view, a well-substantiated view as it happens.
But it differs from yours.
As for Red Dan – I don’t know, but I think it is against the rules of DKos (it is certainly against the rules at DU) to “out” posters even when the poster is “out”. But I have no problem with people knowing who I am. My email is in my DKos profile.
Elizabeth Liddle
because it was blatantly clear to me that Real History Lisa was using the knowledge of “Febbles” identity as a means of impugning her integrity, as a means of implying that Febbles was a liar or a co-conspirator.
This use of identity, coupled with the ongoing implications and assertions about Febbles, about the site itself, about the community, about the moderators, about the entire issue were, in my opinion, what contributed to Real History Lisa being banned.
In my case, I did not know who “febbles” was, and I certainly did not feel it was appropriate to use that personal information in that way.
I have been guilty of reposting identification information about another poster (starkravinglunaticradical) in the past. It was a similar case where the poster, through her own actions “outed” herself…and I am not the one who tracked down the personal information…but I did retransmit that information.
At the time, I was driven by intense anger and disgust about that person’s conduct, personal attacks, and behavior on the site.
However, upon reflection, I realized that I was wrong to do that, and think that it is wrong in general to do that.
There are specific instances where “outing” is entirely appropriate, but outing fellow commenters due to disagreement over a particular topic or opinion is not one of them.
I think that RHL’s use of Febbles’ personal identity as a means of trying to “win” an argument was wrong, and I think (based on absolutely no direct knowledge), that it contributed to the decision to ban her.
See, that’s the problem I have with much that’s written over there. “Without direct knowledge” you jumped into the banning party. In the absense of clear rules, who are you to decide that it’s wrong for RHL or anyone else to restate commonly known information? You may have been driven to do something similar by intense anger and disgust, but I can’t recall RHL lashing out at anyone in that thread with “intense anger and disgust”, so let’s not equate the two.
the banning party.
I didn’t take part in the discussion, I didn’t rate her posts, and I didn’t comment at all.
But I did read the diary and the comments, and I did follow what went down.
And let’s not use Stark as an example of someone who’s outed themselves either. I can tell you that I got emails from her expressing her outrage at being outed and her fear too. The two, Stark and Febble, are different.
I read the information on a comment thread.
I read the letter to TruthOut…
And I understand her outrage.
I did not know that you were in on Stark’s outing. All I was saying is that Febble was not outed. She outed herself long ago, over at DU. So RHL could not have been fairly banned for outing Febble. She was banned for something else obviously. But you did say in an open thread that RHL was probably banned for outing Febble, which is obviously presumptive on your part. And that’s what i was calling out. making a pronouncement like that, without having knowledge of it really. Those kinds of things can have real effects on someones carreer. That’s why I said not to equate Febble with Stark. And whether or not Stark is an irritating person, or that she attacked Cindy Sheehan, whom I greatly admire, and have met in Crawford, isn’t pertinent to the withering and brutal counter-attack and outing that she suffered at dKos.
At the time, I was driven by intense anger and disgust about that person’s conduct, personal attacks, and behavior on the site.
My sympathy.
So why haven’t you been banned from TNH and DK? (not to mention this place)
That’s a really good question colleen.
If ‘outing’ someone is a bannable offense then RedDan should have been banned for what he did to stark. End of story.
Hell, Marisacat was banned for asking someone if they worked in Shumer’s office, yet someone doing all that digging on Google and connecting the dots about stark is a-okay?
Double standards know no bounds it would seem.
If ‘outing’ someone is a bannable offense then RedDan should have been banned for what he did to stark. End of story.
Hell, Marisacat was banned for asking someone if they worked in Shumer’s office, yet someone doing all that digging on Google and connecting the dots about stark is a-okay?
This is precisely my point. The rules are enforced in an arbitrary and capricious manner and are clearly directed towards the person rather than the offense.
Sometimes the ‘rules’ are made up on the spot and then enforced. The Marisicat/RedDan example is an excellent one but I can name many more.
googling.
I did not do the original outing.
I read the comment that outed her and followed the link to the truthout letter.
I am not sure if it fits with double standards or not.
It was quite a while ago, and I think it was before the “official” policy came into effect.
isn’t the important thing that you have expressed regret? I see no need to go beyond that. You said you were sorry that you did it and that you did it in a moment of anger. Nuff said.
Outing people, even when it is easy to do, is not cool. We all know that. It’s a bannable offense here.
(other than Ben Domenech) is not very nice.
And potentially career destroying.
I was pretty appalled at my own behavior, once I got a few days distance.
Even “passing along” information and being part of the game of telephone is pretty bad, and that’s what I did.
It’s not particularly pleasant to think about, and from what I read about Febbles and the interaction with RHL, there is a bit of the same feeling to what happened on Kos, on DU, and so on.
I understand why stark got under your skin. You’ve said you’re sorry, that’s good enough for me.
I understand why stark got under your skin. You’ve said you’re sorry, that’s good enough for me.
I’m not suggesting that you ban Dan. I am pointing out that people are banned if they annoy or are no longer useful to those with the ability to ban.
Are you saying that about me or about Daily Kos, or both?
I think I can probably recite the list of people that have been banned here and give a basic outline of why they were banned. I don’t want to do that because it would just rehash old controversies.
But, one person (the first person) was banned for publishing private emails. Another for revealing a members name after months of behavior that violated the respect rule, another for making repeated attacks against Chris Bowers that were not true, another for creating multiple accounts, and another for refusing to take down 6 diaries that they posted in a row. In every case except the first, I gave extensive warnings.
No one has been banned from here because they were no longer useful. I hope your comment isn’t directed at me.
Are you saying that about me or about Daily Kos, or both?
DK mostly. The only person you’ve banned here that I had a great deal of trouble with was Parker. She was angry, defensive and often annoyed me but she worked at Burger King and had sufficient smarts to have a computer and understand the pernicious effects of the DLC. Causation was a problem for her but, then, spoon refuses to even entertain or respond to the notion that the pie wars were about something other than academic 2nd wave feminists (translation: unpleasant old women) who dislike pornography (revisit the ‘Orange’ diary to see what I mean) so problems with causation are not uncommon. Besides, at bottom I like spunky, bright underemployed women trying to better their condition. And I’m not saying that you were unfair about banning her either. I just regret it. DK is quite another matter but not one anyone here can do much about beyond learning from their errors.
The comment I directed towards you was the explanation of why I was discussing this with Dan. I have absolutely no desire to see Dan banned, I want him to recognise that DK’s administration of rules is arbitrary, capricious and that an obvious double standard is employed there. I don’t hold out much hope for communication with him.
It’s interesting, as someone who used to post on usenet I at one time appreciated the ability of site administrators to ban a great deal because on some blogs (and on DK in the early days) the conversations and exchanges of ideas were more interesting and valuable to me. As time has gone on and the problems with leadership and administration have emerged Ive been (and still am being) forced to rethink that position. I mean what they ban now is the possibility of criticism and this results in things like regular purges followed by (or, now, accompanied by) feigned astonishment as to why so many people are pissed with them.
If it’s of any interest to you I’ve invested time (and, by this point, a certain amount of the same concern one extends towards a growing garden) in this blog because I appreciate the culture here and I like the prime directive. I attribute 80% of this to your thoughtfulness and foresight. I’m still horrified by what has happened to DKos and occasionally become deeply concerned if I see this place headed in that direction.
I did not do the original outing.
Oh for God’s sake. Marie and Marisicat didn’t out anyone or contribute to the effort of outing anyone. And they were banned with great fanfare and triumph. You know damn well that what I say is true.
I read the comment that outed her and followed the link to the truthout letter.
and what did you do after that?
I am not sure if it fits with double standards or not.
I believe that if you took a poll yiou would discover that most folks think that’s a double standard.
It was quite a while ago, and I think it was before the “official” policy came into effect.
I don’t believe so. I believe you outed stark after Marie and Marisicat were banned from DK under the exceptionally thin excuse that they were trying to out someone when they were asking questions.
And I believe that stark was outed post pie wars because I recall when she came over here and spoke about it. How fortunate for you that the blog owners find you useful and that the object of your rage was, as usual, someone without standing in the ‘community’.
So, I ask you again, why do you think that none of the people who outed stark, yourself included, were banned from any of the places you frequent. I mean, after all, you exposed a woman’s identity and, in that case, endangered her livelihood and made her the target of any one of many wackjobs with a computer. huh?
know damn well that what I say is true.
I did not closely follow the episodes of Marie and Marisacat, although I just looked over the incident via the archives.
After I read the initial comment I asked stark herself, in the comments section of that diary. Then I read the truthout letter, and then I asked her again in comments over here.
As for when and why she was outed? It had to do with the attack on Cindy Sheehan related to the use of the “trail of tears” metaphore.
Finally, as to double standards, I don’t know.
On the one hand, you have the fact that in cases like Marisacat and Marie, or Madman, or several others, people who spent a lot of their time and energy attacking, insulting, demeaning, and accusing the bloggers in question of being sellouts, traitors, and so on and so forth. And accusing anyone who agreed with or supported or defended those same bloggers of being sellouts, dupes, or useful idiots (kinda like you are doing right now, to me).
On the other hand, there is the appearance of selective application of a “policy”…
I do know this, however, it wasn’t right for Marisacat to be doing what she did to GregNYC, it wasn’t right for stark to do what she did to Cindy Sheehan, it wasn’t right what was done to Armando, and it wasn’t right what was done to stark.
I played a very small role in that whole mess, and I am not particularly proud of it. At all.
If you feel I should be punitively banned for it, then that’s certainly your right.
people who spent a lot of their time and energy attacking, insulting, demeaning
Yes, well thank God that after the bannings of my friends there aren’t people on DK who do that sort of thing anymore.
defended those same bloggers of being sellouts, dupes, or useful idiots (kinda like you are doing right now, to me).
Dan if I had wanted to call you names I probably would have. Please don’t twist what I’m saying into my being an aggressive name caller and you the innocent victim. It’s just not honest.
it wasn’t right for Marisacat to be doing what she did to GregNYC
Marisa asked if GregNYC was a staffer in Schumer’s office. Big deal. I’ve seen (just last month) people receive multiple ‘4’s for asking the question, “Are you a staffer in Lieberman’s office.” I’ve had RonK demand to know my identity and accuse me of being the leader of an email cabal. I’ve had DHinMI say things to me that made my skin crawl while publicly speculating about my private and professional life. I’ve seen DK administrators cheerfully greet guys who had been banned 4 or 5 times previously. My point is that the rules are applied in an arbitrary and capricious fashion. It’s not an ‘image’ problem, not the ‘appearance of selective application’, it’s the reality of the same. And my point is not to whine about the treatment I or my friends have received at DK, it’s to point out that all being banned from DK means is that a one of the idiot administrators does not like your manner, your political positions, your priorities or your interests. Really Dan what’s happened there is inexcusible, indefensible and completely dysfunctional and I have no respect for it whatsoever.
that I am reacting to the implication that you put forward that I am some kind of “useful tool” – I am not, I simply disagree with your take on things and argue about it. I have and will probably continue to argue about those issues in less-than-polite and less-than-productive ways.
As for the Marisacat vs GregNYC story, that whole business went on for quite a while, and was more involved than you suggest, as I remember.
An aside, and an explanation for why I got so hostile to Marisa, Wilfred, and etc: On one thread, arguing with Madman in the market place, I was attacked by wilfred and Marisa. That’s fine, whatever. But both brought my family, my wife and daughter, into the conversation in exceedingly offensive and aggressive fashion. Not cool, but whatever. But I got really scared and angry, because Marisa knows my real identity and my real address, career, and etc. I met Marisa very early on, on threads at pre-scoop Kos and at pre-scoop Tacitus. We had several email conversations and I was mailing from my real address…I made the mistake of emailing with my header from my university address. I had never had any interaction with wilfred before then, and suddenly both were talking about my family. I was (I wouold hope understandibly) outraged, angry, a bit scared, and very vindictive about it.
As for RonK and DHinMI, I have had a longstanding series of nasty arguments with both of them. You can check and see if you like. I have not seen such behavior from them, but am certainly willing to look at the posts. If you are right, then I will certainly re-evaluate.
I simply disagree with your take on things and argue about it. I have and will probably continue to argue about those issues in less-than-polite and less-than-productive ways.
Yes, well, see I would prefer to avoid those arguments. I prefer to use my time online in more productive ways.
I’ve no idea what your relationships at DK are and am not very interested. I seldom read over there anymore and never in any depth. My point in this discussion was to point out that others had been banned for far less serious offenses, people who had damaged no one beyond a few enormous bruised egos.
But I got really scared and angry, because Marisa knows my real identity and my real address, career, and etc.
Marisa knows the real identities of many people as do I. It’s almost impossible to remain anonymous on usenet or on blogs, particularly over time. You have nothing to fear from Marisa or Wilfred or any of those folks in that regard. I’ve no idea what exchange you’re referring to but I do know that she’s not the sort of person to do to you what you helped do to stark. (and no, I do not know your real identity and am not even mildly curious) She and Wilfred and Madman are all people of great integrity and I assure you that the notion of damaging your life or the lives of your family never occured to them. Why are you telling me this?
By way of explanation as to why I was so hostile and angry at people who’s political viewpoint I, in large part, share.
By way of explanation as to why I was so hostile and angry at people who’s political viewpoint I, in large part, share.
Dan I do not care.
I will say that I discovered the thread you allude to, the one where you, not Marisa, introduced your daughter into the conversation here because I do care when people make false accusations and sully someone’s name. Marisa does not out people. If she did she wouldn’t waste her time with you. You and your family have nothing to fear from her.
Well, okay then.
Bash away.
Thread, DKos, 6/22/05
That is one of many posts, sub threads of particular sorts of commentary that I have tucked away..
Dkos thread, 6/21/05
You are a bully Dan. One of many that Kos and Dana and Armando and others nurtured to patrol that site and make all of you feel like he-men.
I and others told you to get help, long ago. I told you in the 6/22/05 thread to get help.
You pull this sort of lying about me again and the full text goes where people can read it. Not just a link.
I know boychicks are tense (and it shows), the homeland is under fire… but you are also under scrutiny, more so than the <pardon me while I laugh> movement has ever been..
BACK OFF.
… and for good measure: Dkos Thread, 5/13/04
Marisa,
The conversation with Gilroy and with Nyberg was one that had just about everything to do with the fact that both made sweeping generalizations about Jews…sweeping generalizations that were and are wrong, offensive, border on blatantly anti-semitic, and deserved just about every bit of nasty rhetoric they got.
Did I go over the top? Sure. Do I regret it? Not much.
Do I think that Nyberg borders on anti-semitic in his stance and tone and opinion? Based on that piece, it certainly seems like it. Gilroy’s “personal anecdote” was just as bad and just as wrong, but Arthur and I have made a peace of sorts.
The last thread had just about nothing to do with me…at all. In fact it was a conversation between BooMan and JamesB3…and I have nary a comment in it.
So what’s your point?
You can publish or post every single comment I have ever made, as you wish. Will there be things I am not proud of? Of course. Will there be things that I regret? Yes, I can already think of a lot. So what?
So what’s your point?
Dan you accused her of trying to ‘out’ you and said you feared for your family. You’ve written it right up above there. There is no evidence that Marisa was trying to out you and no evidence that you have anything to fear from her in your personal life. That you would accuse or imply such a thing in a public forum while presenting yourself as a victim is disgusting. You should apologise.
wow, given your history as, what was it, a communist or a socialist? … it’s interesting how adept you are at rewriting history. How very Stalinist.
The questions I and others were asking, and the connections we were infering, are suddenly all coming out, as we learn about blogheeler’s email lists and allegations of financial pressure being exerted by your bullying heroes.
I think many of my suspicions have been borne out, and if you can’t see the plain double standard when it comes to banning people then the rest of us will have to chalk it up to willfull blindness.
As for the congruence between the attacks you put forward against Kos et al. and the attacks now being peddled by Josh Trevino, RedState, and TNR, here’s what I think:
You can chalk my behavior up to wilfull blindness, stalinism, useful idiotness, or being on the payroll as you like.
I continue to disagree with your assessment and am willing to give the benefit of the doubt until such time as evidence is presented.
Finally, as ever, let me restate that politically we are basically on the same wavelength, personally we are nowhere near it, and tactically speaking we remain worlds apart.
I am sorry about the amount of invective I have thrown your way, and I hope that you understand where some of that invective came from (see my response to Colleen for an explanation).
Peace.
Well, as we’ve recently seen, ‘outing someone’ is a bit of an ambiguous phrase. Boo has spelled out some pretty specific criteria for this site (even in this thread), but some people aren’t so sure of where site admins should draw the line. I think a lot of it comes down to disclosure and honesty. What the site policy is, is up to the people that make it happen. Now, evaluating ‘who makes it happen’…. well, I think that’s also subject to debate.
That could be one reason.
Because it happened before there was an “official” banning policy?
That could be another.
I don’t know.
No, I remember, Lisa.
And no, I am not trying to undermine your integrity. On the whole, I tend to believe that people are good, and that they are stating the truth as they see it. I have no reason to believe otherwise of you.
What bothers me is when they sae as the truth a picture arrived at through “joining up dots” that don’t, in reality, join up.
Yes, my position is pretty certain. I expect yours is too. And both you and I may be wrong. What, of course, I am in a position to know, is that you happen to be wrong about me. And seeing as, for a strange collection of reasons, I seem to have ended up as a figure in this particular set of dots (no – it’s not all about me – it’s about a particular theory about why Bush was inaugurated in January 2005)then I am clearly motivated to try and correct the picture emerging from the set of dots you seem to be currently connecting.
So let’s put a couple of things straight.
Yes, I was contracted by Mitofsky to analyse the exit poll data. I invoiced for a months work. I am not, and never have been an employee. I was contracted to do so because I had posted diaries on DailyKos about the Edison-Mitofsky report, in which I was critical of the measure they had used to measure their discrepancy. I was also critical of studies that had used data from the E-M report to draw conclusions about vote miscounts, on the basis that the E-M data was misleading, because of problems with their measures.
As a result of my work (which eventually took the form of a paper that was linked to from a front-page diary at Kos) Mitofsky re-analysed his data, and planned to present it at the AAPOR meeting in May 2005. Ten days before he did so, he asked me if I would undertake further analyses. I agreed. However, he wanted to announce the new analyses, based on my work, himself, at the conference.
On the day of the conference, a poster on DU posted the information that I was working for Mitofsky. I confirmed it. I had no problem with the information being public. Except that within minutes I had a security attack on my computer. It may have had nothing to do with the post, but I was seriously alarmed, especially given the hostile nature of the DU posts. I therefore deleted my confirmation (I had confirmed it in at least two other posts – I can’t remember) and stopped posting on DU for a while.
Eventually I resumed posting, and indeed, posted a public apology for having failed to disclose the contract for that period of 10 days. I could not have disclosed it, but I do agree that I should not have posted during those 10 days.
That is the extent of the conspiracy. There was not a conspiracy of posters on Daily Kos working on the issue at the time my exit poll diaries were appearing – there were simply a number of posters working with me on the issue.
I was not “trying to stick it to” you in this thread. I was trying to put the record straight. Part of the conspiracy you were alleging on DKos involved allegations about me. I am a poster on both DKos and, rarely on Booman, and I am not a troll.
And I am not a villain.
And if you want to argue the math, feel free. I am happy to argue the math. But I think the math is good.
My original diary on the problems with the EM measure was cross posted here on 6th April 2005
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/4/6/71222/58113
I was contacted by Mitofsky shortly afterwards, telling me that he would analyse his data using my suggested measure. He also informed me that he would present the results at AAPOR on the 14th May (I think I gave the wrong date above). 10 days before the conference he asked if I would undertake to run further analyses myself
The analyses he presented at AAPOR were his, not mine. I did no paid work for Mitofsky until after May 14th, although the agreement to do so predated the conference. As I said, I invoiced for a month’s work (carried out over a couple of months, while also trying to complete my PhD dissertation).
No, I remember, Lisa.
And no, I am not trying to undermine your integrity. On the whole, I tend to believe that people are good, and that they are stating the truth as they see it. I have no reason to believe otherwise of you.
What bothers me is when they sae as the truth a picture arrived at through “joining up dots” that don’t, in reality, join up.
Yes, my position is pretty certain. I expect yours is too. And both you and I may be wrong. What, of course, I am in a position to know, is that you happen to be wrong about me. And seeing as, for a strange collection of reasons, I seem to have ended up as a figure in this particular set of dots (no – it’s not all about me – it’s about a particular theory about why Bush was inaugurated in January 2005)then I am clearly motivated to try and correct the picture emerging from the set of dots you seem to be currently connecting.
So let’s put a couple of things straight.
Yes, I was contracted by Mitofsky to analyse the exit poll data. I invoiced for a months work. I am not, and never have been an employee. I was contracted to do so because I had posted diaries on DailyKos about the Edison-Mitofsky report, in which I was critical of the measure they had used to measure their discrepancy. I was also critical of studies that had used data from the E-M report to draw conclusions about vote miscounts, on the basis that the E-M data was misleading, because of problems with their measures.
As a result of my work (which eventually took the form of a paper that was linked to from a front-page diary at Kos) Mitofsky re-analysed his data, and planned to present it at the AAPOR meeting in May 2005. Ten days before he did so, he asked me if I would undertake further analyses. I agreed. However, he wanted to announce the new analyses, based on my work, himself, at the conference.
On the day of the conference, a poster on DU posted the information that I was working for Mitofsky. I confirmed it. I had no problem with the information being public. Except that within minutes I had a security attack on my computer. It may have had nothing to do with the post, but I was seriously alarmed, especially given the hostile nature of the DU posts. I therefore deleted my confirmation (I had confirmed it in at least two other posts – I can’t remember) and stopped posting on DU for a while.
Eventually I resumed posting, and indeed, posted a public apology for having failed to disclose the contract for that period of 10 days. I could not have disclosed it, but I do agree that I should not have posted during those 10 days.
That is the extent of the conspiracy. There was not a conspiracy of posters on Daily Kos working on the issue at the time my exit poll diaries were appearing – there were simply a number of posters working with me on the issue.
I was not “trying to stick it to” you in this thread. I was trying to put the record straight. Part of the conspiracy you were alleging on DKos involved allegations about me. I am a poster on both DKos and, rarely on Booman, and I am not a troll.
And I am not a villain.
And if you want to argue the math, feel free. I am happy to argue the math. But I think the math is good.
I notice, belatedly, this:
So it seems that bringing up exit polls was not so trollish after all.
Sure mathematicians can lie. And sure, you should not believe them just because they say it is so.
If you want to go head to head on the math, Lisa, I’m game. Are you?
I am not a liar.
The fact that you notice this “belatedly”, in your own words, means that you came and opened fire without a specific reason.
You just made my point for me, again.
If you want to help the cause of election reform, I have yet to see any evidence of that. You’ve made it your mission in life to try to discredit the exit polls, rather than to address more important issues such as what can we do to protect elections, improve exit polling, etc.
You claim to have integrity. But your actions do not show it. You felt the need to come muddy this thread, which was not about you, and in which your name was not mentioned, to further your personal agenda, which, btw, takes us no closer to fixing our vote or removing evil from office.
I don’t care about your explanations because, until you demonstrate otherwise, I don’t believe you are on our side. I don’t care how much you CLAIM to be anything. Liars claim to be honest. A claim is useless. Actions, Lizzie. Do something useful on the issue of elections. Then maybe I’ll care what you have to say.
No, it doesn’t mean that.
I read your post in its entirety. Then I read your post calling me a “trollish” for bringing up the exit polls. As my response had been about the issue of integrity, I made it clear I wasn’t talking about the exit poll issue per se.
Then, when I re-read your OP, I noted that you had in fact, specifically mentioned exit polls yourself – and therefore, accusing me of being “trollish” for apparently wishing to discuss them – even though I wasn’t – was uncalled for.
Lisa, I came here to correct some impressions you seem to have about me. You posted those impressions on DKos. They are wrong. You call yourself “Real History Lisa”, and I am telling you some real history. I am not happy to have people posting false history about me on the internet.
I bore you no ill will. When I saw you had posted a piece about popularity and integrity, I posted, in peace, to attempt to explain that I too, know the pull between popularity and integrity, and that I too, choose integrity.
You appear, nonetheless, to have ignored all my corrective posts.
You post that I have “made it my mission in life to discredit the exit polls” which is not true.
You imply that I lie, which is not true – and you supply no evidence to support the allegation.
I did not come to “muddy the thread”. You were banned from DKos for a series of posts about the election fraud issue, and those posts included allegations about me. I am a DKos poster and Booman poster. I have come to correct your misimpressions. I have, in fact, come to attempt to remove the mud that you have stuck to me.
You say that I am attempting to further my personal agenda, when your own appears to include calling my own moral and intellectual integrity into question. Yes, part of my personal agenda is to defend myself against false allegation.
If you make allegations about me on any forum, then I claim the right of reply.
As for “doing something useful” about election integrity, in case you are unaware, I have done four investigations into the abuses on the 2004 election; one on Florida, which I consider inconclusive; one on machine rationing in Franklin county which was extremely conclusive, and which I sent to John Conyers and to Kerry-Edwards counsel in Ohio in the hope of furthering investigation; one on undervotes in New Mexico, which I hope contributed to progress there; and work on the exit polls, which I believed might indicate fraud.
If you have evidence that I am a liar, please cite it. If you have evidence that I am working against election reform, please cite it.
My own view is that the cause of election reform is best served by assembling a watertight case. I think the exit poll evidence is so far from watertight it risks sinking the entire campaign if it is coupled to it. I think the exit poll evidence strongly contra-indicates hyper-fraud. I can provide support for these conclusions.
And I don’t particularly care whether you care what I have to say or not. But I do care when you, and others, post that I am a liar, and imply that I some kind of “mission” to discredit the exit polls.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I was not banned for a “series of posts on election fraud.”
That’s simply a lie.
What a surprise.
I was given the reason, and I stated it above. You can make up whatever you like. But it’s not doing you any credit.
Thanks, though, for making it so easy for people to understand why I believe what I do about you.
And just so no one has to take my word for it – please note that my last diary was not only recommended by one of the site moderators, but that person also encouraged others to recommend it as well.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/3/152523/3429
From Plutonium Page re the above:
Care to retract the lie, Febble? Or do you not have the integrity to do so?
I will certainly retract the error, but I will not retract the lie, because it was not a lie.
It was merely what I understood from your own posts. I do, however, apologise for misunderstanding your posts. I thought you thought you had been banned for posting about election fraud on an election fraud diary.
I now have no idea what you thought you were banned for. I have no idea what you were banned for. But if it was anything to do with your conspiracy theories, then your conspiracy theories about me are false, and I state, here and now, that they are false.
Perhaps you will one day see fit to retract them.
OK, apologies. It was not a lie, it was an error. I misunderstood. I understood that you though you had been banned for posting on election fraud issues.
Lisa, a lie is a deliberate untruth or misrepresentation. You have frequently misrepresented me, but I do not call you a liar, as I assume you state what you believe to be the truth.
But your posts about me on DKos included this one:
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/6/3/24320/05161/41#c41
And I would like you to stop, because your allegations and suspicions are false.
I will accept that you were passing along someone else’s lie, or false assumption. Thank you for that.
If I find I have been wrong about you, I will apologize as well. I’m waiting for you to move past the exit poll issue.
Well, we will leave it there.
Peace.
… to see if I recommended this diary.
OK. Done.
Mentally reviewing blog entry to see if RHL is still my real history hero.
OK. Done.
Trying to put this into the mix with her getting banned at DKos.
{shakes head} Let me get back to you on that.
More soon.
Welcome to the Twilight Zone? I’ll look forward to hearing more from you, Mythmother. I think it was you who identified yourself on Kos as a real history person too.
From your comments I respected you as someone who has done your homework and knew your facts.
There is some wierd stuff going on at Daily Kos, and has been for a while, and I wanted to link to some of my comments, but can’t get on the website right now. But the substance of it was this.
what is a real history person?
Thanks.
I use the term “real history” to distinguish it from most of what is taught in our textbooks, which is as much propaganda as history. REAL history, what really happened, is difficult to find, but almost unfailingly more interesting than the pap we’re fed.
When I studied history in High School, it was all about how great America is, and about American heros. Cool. Ok. Whatever.
But when I got older, and started to read about, for example, the CIA’s actions overthrowing over governments, I became outraged. Why hadn’t I been taught that? Why had no one else been taught that? I was certain, of course, at that young age, that everyone would be as outraged as I if they only knew.
Older and somewhat wiser, I see that some people really feel no compunction screwing it to other nations if they can profit from it. Bottom line – it’s all about the money (hence my Seldes tagline.) And when you look at history from that point of view, it gets, to me at least, rather more interesting. And it starts to have a predictive value.
For instance, just prior to the Oklahoma City Bombing, the news was focused on Jennifer Harbury, who was outraged that the CIA had been involved in the events that led to her husband’s murder. She was articulate, intelligent, and really putting the agency’s practice of dealing with some of the worst criminals in the drug business on the front page.
Then the Murrah building blew up.
I knew what the spin would be. And I even knew who would write the story in the Los Angeles Times. I was wrong in that the woman I had picked shared the byline with two other reporters. But yes, Robin Wright wrote a story that argued upfront, “now we need the CIA more than ever.”
Now, I want to add that it’s unfair to heap too much blame on the CIA – as a secret agency, as they say there, their victories are kept secret. If they have prevent terrorist attacks on our soil, they are not in a position to brag about it. Given the ill will we’ve put into the world, I’d like very much to believe the Agency has, to some degree, kept us safe.
I just think had not the Agency been involved in coups in the first place, there might have been less to protect us against. They’re in a business that has no downside – they can manufacture enemies, and then hire themselves out as our protectors from the enemies they’ve made. That’s some business model. π
Hi Lisa,
Thanks for the explanation. I just wrote you a longish reply, the gist of which is that I agree with you, but then my browser crashed. Damn annoying!
It’s 9:00 west coast time, and time to see the Frontline special about Darth Vader himself, so I’ve go to go.
But I look forward to more of your diaries.
I HATE when that happens. Been there done that, got a whole closet full of t-shirts on that one. Ack. Thanks for the thought, and too bad I didn’t get to read the longer version!
I’ve been sitting on the sidelines. I saw the whole thing unfold over there on one of my rarer and rarer visits. I’ve watched all this hullabaloo with a certain weariness that comes from seeing the pattern repeated. As KP and AG might say, the same tune played the same way over and over is worse than boring.
You was wronged.
No making nicey nice for me, I choose integrity. And if someone slaps me in the face a few times, I get over the politeness thing pretty quick.
Also, I think I’ve finally dropped pragmatism in my politics. I’ve been pushed over the edge by all the good folks here – and convinced that I want no part of compromise over what is right any more.
I feel a certain exhilaration about that right now.
And my, don’t the trolls follow you around? You really got ’em riled up – you must be on to something…………………………………..
Thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Yes. One can judge people by the trolls they keep, to some degree, I guess! π
Yes, and you have some impressive ones – a whole cadre, I’d say.
d;)
And thanks for decloaking – or is it delurking – to weigh in. I appreciate your willingness to stand up. My trolls become my defenders trolls. It’s not an easy fight. I treasure all who are willing to fight with me!
It is I who treasure you. I read almost every diary here, every day. But I usually can’t find any words that add much to the debate. I mostly type and erase, type and erase. So, I spend much of my time here in silent awe of those of you who have words that flow and insights and opinions that are informed and considered. My strength, I think, is one to one live conversation with students of unreal histories. The blog format is not my strong point, so I learn here and use my acquired knowledge in my own small attempts to change the world.
Thanks again, and I’ve got your back on this one, for sure. And if your trolls troll me, I’ll consider it an honor.
Ohhhh! You are so nice. And I’ll bet you’re great one to one. Thanks again.
blueneck – Hey, me too:
I’m still looking for my strong suite — thanks for sharing yours and reminding me there are other ways to contribute to the conversation.
Everybody has strengths. ONE of your strengths is that your chosen online name always reminds me of my ultimate goal. Therefore, your comments are always a welcome sight for me in any thread in which you choose to comment.
You just aquired a hell of an ally here Lisa. Blueneck is one fine, world class debater. I’ve sat back many times silently reading his comments in a state of awe at the way he carries himself in an exchange. So for him to say that he appreciates your writing, that is a compliment of the highest degree.
Wow. Very cool. Can’t wait to see him in action!!
Thanks for the compliment supersoling. I feel exactly the same way about you. As a matter of fact, It is almost always the case that when you write a comment, I am in total agreement. And when that is the case, I can hardly see a better way to have said it. In many cases, you speak my case for me, with more eloquence and heart than I could muster in so few words.
Having perused some of your diaries and comments, I can see why supersoling took exception to your modesty. You are indeed a talented writer!
You are too kind. If I have had any success in writing, it is because I first learned my way around photography. Any ‘great’ photographer will tell you that the first rule of excellent photography is “take 1000 photos and throw 999 of them away.” My talent is probably more in the field of editing than in the actual writing! π
… and not do what RFK Jr. is doing now i.e sue over ‘stolen’ 04 election ?
by km4 on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 06:57:33 AM PDT
Trollrated by: TheBlaz, A Patriot for Kerry
Just beyond comprehension to me that a harmless comment like this can be troll rated into hidden comments. What is going on at that website?
Exactly what you think. The site exists now to serve as a launching pad and support base for the next generation of Carville/Shrum consultant-operatives.
Gotta have everyone on board and singing in harmony, and nothing that might annoy the cash customers or make them start asking awkward questions.
great comment, but far from harmless. you see, in order to continue to respect our ‘leaders’ we have to forget the past and avoid embarrassing questions. this medium is dangerous because it allows such questions to be asked by anyone.
not too long ago i asked Sarah Carter if her father (running for Senate in Nevada) was opposed to Congress’ unconstitutional transfer of its war-making power to the President (as happened with the Iraqi War Resolution). i got no reply. further, no one over at dkos even picked up that that was an important question.
without the IWR there would likely have been no invasion; as Congress would have had to actually declare war, rather than being able to lamely leave it up to the President’s discretion. but, that question, small as it was, would have opened up a great many Democrats to profound criticism. as it is, Dems can claim that they were misled into war. in reality, they enabled their own ‘deception’ by unconstitutionally leaving the declaration of war up to Bush. who, we might reasonably ask, could be that stupid, and how could such a person be qualified to serve in Congress?
my point being that the whole system only saves appearances by an absence of memory. loyalty is about forgetting in the service of your side, while remembering the sins of the other. and even if they don’t like this, the pragmatists decide to go along with it because they know that the other side is busy forgetting in service to their guy. forgetting is just what good party members do. so, you were trollrated because you inappropriately remembered.
my interpretation, anyway.
‘Tis the doom of men that they forget.
And a mark of clinical insanity that an entire nation appears not to have any memory of what its President and Congress solemnly vowed yesterday.
Imagine that the United States is the character of “Lenny” in the film “Memento”–in which the hero is a detective who has suffered short-term memory loss and cannot remember anything longer than 15 minutes.
Check and see, you all may not have been banned.
(Although I still do not know why I am no longer a trusted user!)
You’re older and wiser and can no longer be trusted?
I dunno, just taking a wild flyer here…
Hunter confirmed that RHL was banned. And most of the other folks were banned long before the site issues popped up (well, the technical issues, not necessarily the ‘site’ issues…)