Have you had enough meta discussions in the last couple of days? I have. Time to refocus on getting our asses out of Iraq.
About The Author
BooMan
Martin Longman a contributing editor at the Washington Monthly. He is also the founder of Booman Tribune and Progress Pond. He has a degree in philosophy from Western Michigan University.
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Recent Posts
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Recent Comments
I was wondering is this story still true?
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/windows.nsa/
I don’t think I have anyone spying on me..but I think IE& is running in the background on my computer. I firmly believe it may be a software glitch. But I have noticed that on a few site meters..at location..my IP address shows up twice, one showing a browser of firefox (the one I use) and then my IP address with a broswer of IE7 which I do not use? Hmmm?
All I know is that when I worked at Microsoft, they actually had a place there called ‘Area 51’ that no one could talk about. I wondered if that might be the NSA group. 😉
Amen?
(don’t hit me!)
Yes getting meta-asses out of Iraq now is a good thing.
I don’t like meta discussions much anymore because all too often they devolve into flame wars over matters that serve no useful purpose, and which often divide people from one from another who should be standing shoulder to shoulder.
But that’s just my meta opinion.
Mostly I’m here to gather spiritual strength and hang out with people I consider to be friends and allies. I get well enough hate and discontent from the repubs I’m forced to deal with because of my job and my activism.
Yes.
Enough discussion of individuals – let’s try to focus on the issues. There are plenty!
I wish I had a picture of this, but it showed a picture of Bush with the caption “Moron Terror.” I had to buy one. 😉
I’m fresh outta meta.
in my spanakopita.
I have an excellent Greek recipe for shrimp baked with meta and tomato sauce. Mmm! Meta!
i also need to get refocused and do some activism….ive been overwhelmed with moving into the new apartment….the very first time in my life i have lived alone….although im just downstairs from the old apartment and the boyfriend so im not sure how alone i really am….although i think i want a puppy.
im really feeling sorry for biden and esp for his aide eric …yes biden says stupid things and he is not exactly my favorite democrat…i hated the way kos treated him this week and i really hated the contempt he expressed for eric when he attempted to explain things better….the primary is just getting started and im already horrified of the way the dems are treating each other…..now im listening to bruce springsteen’s seeger sessions….i am the biggest bruce springsteen fan in the world and i think this is his absolute best album ever (do they still call them albums?) its really getting me into the activism mood….i can feel some phone calls welling up inside of me now….i almost feel so sorry for biden i would call to offer advice instead of just calling to bitch….hhhhmmmm……
i miss molly ivins already….her video essay on the texas sex laws is one of my all time favorite sexual freedom activist things to watch and learn from….it just amazes me that politicians actually spent time deciding it should be illegal to own more than 6 dildos, to sell anything called a dildo (you have to call them personal massagers), to sell a dildo shaped like a penis (they can be shaped like baby jesus or rabbits but not like a penis)….they actually decided you could put a dildo shaped like a penis in your butt but not in your vagina….thats a felony….
i would really like to see someone like rep mark cohen rewrite the state sex laws in pa and get rid of the prostitution statutes …they are bizarre and totally un american…..if someone could that he could become a god.
is this an open thread?
ive got an ativan buzz and im rambling……i was at a goddess tea a few weeks ago and we discussed the history of cod (i had lots of cool things to say about cod which i find fascinating) and goddess symbols and how they have changed and the ways societies fetishize the female body…and what do we have to do to get this society to give up its obsession with anorexic stick women….nothing personal against my sisters out there who are thin but im ready to see some meaty women make it in show biz and onto the pages of newsweek….this is why i love john edwards…did you see his wife’s ass? that is one gorgeous ass and any guy who picks a woman with an ass like that gets my vote….monica had a great ass…hillary….not so much…..speaking of meta i am not a fan of del dem but i was really upset when people called him fat…..what has that to do with him being a whiny baby asshole? in the end they both got called names and what changed? did we evolve in any way? all i saw was a whole bunch of people building up some bad personal karma that is gonna eventually come back and bite them hard on the ass…..didnt seem worth it at all.
i think the queen and helen mirren are going to sweep the oscars…..
springsteens version of eyes on the prize is like a lullaby to me….a lullaby that sends you to dream about a land of freedom and peace…..and those horns!!!!…this arrangement is amazing…..first time i sang this song was at a protest at the nevada test site…i still have the songbook and a little cassette recording of holly near and kate wolf and many others singing my most favorite peace songs ever…..does anyone remember kate wolf? her voice was so clear …it resonated through your soul like hot glass…..if she hadnt died so young we could have had a whole different musicology than we have now…..big loss.
this freeze coming thru the philly area is gonna kill a lot of spring buds that have been swelling up from the warm winter temps…the japanese wrap their trees and shrubs that are susceptible to that kind of cold with straw to protect them….they are so clever……american gardeners…not so much….i hosed down a bunch of shrubs today with water so they would form ice and hopefully be saved by the drying wind and frigid temps coming….then it started snowing a wet snow which probably did just as good a job…..i cut some quince too which are in full bloom….i love those salmon colors during this time of year….i put them in a glass vase that sits in a big low bowl of fuji apples on the kitchen table…in my pumpkin kitchen…..with my purple and red chairs…..this place is like pee wees playhouse only without chairy….i do however have the wanamakers santa throne in a place of honor so i feel i made up for the loss of chairy.
springsteen also sings we shall overcome like a lullaby too…..i cant understand why this isnt the last song on the cd….its always the last song at concerts and protests….unless someone decides to sing amazing grace……its definitely time to go home after amazing grace…..theres just nothing left to say after that.
Anna – you’re astounding and I love you for the sheer volume and variety of your knowledge. What an interesting woman you are!
I’m imagining a fresh breath of air blowing through an open window on an early spring day. Amazing.
Glad you’re feeling better, Anna.
ok, cod – like the fish? :/
Maybe she read Cod – my daughter gave me a copy for Christmas. Very interesting.
Thanks, ask – I was pretty sure I was missing something. 🙂
The fish that feed the world. (Not, me, can’t stand the stuff, but the world.)
Thanks for sharing this and I suggest you get that puppy!!!!
Awesome ramblings, though I take exception to your claim about you being the worlds bigges springsteen fan. <shaking head>. We may have to virtually thumb wrestle over that one. 🙂
I also say – get a puppy. I got one for myself recently. “Pax” is a shih tzu. She’s four months and is up to about 4 pounds now. If there are any typos in this comment, I’m going to blame them on her because she keeps trying to get to my hand so I’ll play with her, then looking at me imploringling when I don’t. She’s about half the size of my laptop keyboard. What a treasure!! All I have to do is look at her and I feel better.
Please remove my account information from this blog and please remove my name from the tribber blog roll. I no longer wish to be associated with any person or entity that makes accusations based on personal beliefs or hunches, calls a respected member a liar repeatedly without proof and then bans that person for demanding proof. I no longer want to be a part of any organization that allows a hostile personality to roam freely to attack, insult, denigrate and threaten other members when it is clear that that person is in dire and immediate need of something other than blog priveleges. I no longer want to be a part of a fraternity that finds gossip about bloggers who supposedly outed bloggers who outed themselves, and also find no problem with certain outed bloggers calling women fucking bitches and cunts, worthy of the space that is the public face of this blog when myriad thousands of people have been killed or otherwise are losing their lives as we sit and stroke our bruised little egos.
In other words, delete my fucking account Martin.
Right behind you Super! Make that two of us Martin and or CabinGirl.
Shit.
Just….shit.
And dammit all to hell, too.
I do NOT want to lose you two.
I will miss you so very much.
dammit.
Ditto scribe.
Booman, it might be time to call a meeting of community elders and get some advice about how to handle things. You could do it online or via email. Just please do something before we loose too many of the folks that have made this such a great place for us all.
Super and Aloha – please know that I understand what you’re doing and I hope like hell that there is some way to straighten this all out. We’ll see.
Esp. in light of diane11’s comments below.
to happen if anyone googles my name is for this blog to get a hit out of it or have my name associated with this high school comedy. Good night to those here I dearly love and you do know who you are and that does include you Scribe.
Leezy, the same goes for you. Don’t leave, just take some chill time. I’d hate to lose you too.
Let’s not let this get all Kos like and watch a narrowing of the community.
The best part of this site is that people can argue, scream at each other, vehemently disagree without being marginalized or (usually) banned.
The opinions and people here are very diverse. If we can’t figure out a way to work things out among ourselves, what does that say about our ability to influence the larger discourse.
Please stay.
I wish that were possible north, but in view of the site owners decisions I do not think it can work out in the way you desire. I am very close to saying the same thing as Super and Aloha.
These things get swept under the rug only to erupt again at a later date, never getting resolved…it could have been solved much earlier than this, but I fear it is not going to happen.
Come on, take 24 or 48 hours please. You’re a great part of this site.
Let’s all chill for a while and not make any rash decisons.
Maybe it’s time for a new blog where grownups hang out but no, I’m done here. Thanks to all that have enriched my life for knowing you. I appreciate the kind words. I am very, very sad but I also know when a relationship has served its purpose. This blog and I are not compatable anymore. I want to help change the world and get rid of the crooks that took over the country. I am sure there is a place where I can find others that still want to do the same.
Hey Super. It is sad to see you go. I know I will find you some other place. You take care Bro!
Ok, how in the hell can you blog community if powerful voices like ductape, boston joe, janet, super, leezy, spider and others are gone?
…can you have a blog community…need to spellcheck better when I’m upset.
Given that you have backed off of your denial of last summer, I can’t say I am sorry to see you go. I took you at your word, absolutely. If you can’t vouch for your word now then it wasn’t worth anything.
That’s pretty sad, and quite shocking actually. One thing I never doubted for a moment was your word.
Remember what you said? Remember how you told me you were hurt that I would even ask after you had invited me to your house? Remember the guilt trip you laid on me for even asking you about it? And now you come back seven months later and say you don’t remember if you did it or not?
Do you see how sick that makes me?
That is not acceptable super. Just check your email and you’ll know if it was you. I don’t need to hear some song and dance about how you honestly don’t remember. Were you calling catnip on the phone on such a regular basis that you can’t remember individual conversations? Please. Check you email. And if it was you, I will apologize to spiderleaf for falsely accusing her.
But as for spiderleaf, she still lied to me regardless of whether she was the source for catnip. That is a side issue. She lied plain and simple. And she is here to stir up shit and for no other reason. I’m sure she is reveling in her martyrdom, which she worked so tirelessly to obtain.
Probably the worst thing I could do to her is to reinstate her and take away her badge of honor. As for community feedback, email is running three to one in favor (as in, what the fuck took you so long). I don’t dismiss the other email at all. No one, including me, likes to see members leave, or to see members upset about others leaving. One of the reasons I have almost stopped banning people is that every time I do it, we lose more people than the person I found disruptive. This time is no different. And if Tracy’s day ever comes, it will take a dozen or more people with her too. That’s just the way things are and I can’t do anything about it.
I am only here to respond to one thing and then I’ll be gone again: I have NEVER spoked to super on the phone. Period. End of story.
I have no idea what you’re talking about re: the phone calls etc. But I do notice a distinct desire to cause spiderleaf problems and pain. Why is this? You were way off base with the “DD outing” bullshit and I suspect you’re off base here too.
And she is here to stir up shit and for no other reason.
Um, that’s what the Troll Police and Armando and the gang say over at DKos when they don’t agree with what someone has to say and they want to silence them and obliterate them from the community.
I hope that this place isn’t going down that road.
I think you’ve got things rather the other way around when it comes to identifying whom it is that wants to inflict suffering and pain. I certainly don’t. I’d much prefer if people didn’t lurk at this site waiting for any hint of controversy to leap into the fray and bring up my personal life to try to psychoanalyze my decision making process.
Last July there was a major blow-up on this site that originated with a diary that was critical of U.S. military personell. During that flare-up there were two pitched camps, one that supported the original diarist and those that supported people that were very offended by that diary. During that time people on both sides got very emotional and broke the rules of the site left and right. Then they began asking me to enforce the rules or even ban people. I did my best. I probably ignored it for too long. I have apologized for how I handled it. But I didn’t ban anyone. And I was accused by many of not banning one individual who was the most egregious rule-breaker because she was friends with someone I was dating.
I didn’t agree then and I do not agree now that was the reason I did not ban that person. I didn’t like that criticism, but I didn’t ban anyone for making it.
Spiderleaf was a party to that controversy back then. We can debate whether she actually initiated it, as I suspect, or whether she merely watched and participated in the threads (which is beyond dispute). In any case, the issue was eventually resolved when I persuaded the individual to leave voluntarily and take a break.
They recently returned to the blog and repeated some of the behavior that led me to ask her to leave previously. I have issued her a warning.
What particularly set me off with spiderleaf was her linking to a picture of me and my girlfriend and suggesting, again, that I was showing leniency in deference to her. I was obviously familiar with this argument, as it was made in July. But spiderleaf was presenting this photo as some kind of ‘eureka’ moment where she first understood my conflict of interests. So, I asked her, knowing that she had once planned to meet with me and my girlfriend and had (in my memory) even talked to me on my girlfriend’s phone, when she first realized that we were dating. And she lied to me.
That is why I got angry. All the other stuff is minor. And she wants to carry on and ask for apologies from me and flame thread after thread and dare me to ban her? Fine. I banned her. I do need this level of disruption from someone that I consider to be dishonest and to have zero respect for my private life or my ability to be fair in light of my private life, and who consistently shows up to further any controversy that occurs here.
I try not to ban anyone other than obvious drive-by trolls and spammers because it usually means that I will lose people that I do not want to lose. But enough is enough in this case.
>>I try not to ban anyone other than obvious drive-by trolls and spammers because it usually means that I will lose people that I do not want to lose. But enough is enough in this case.<<
So, Enough is enough (in this case) because you got angry over a personal issue with Spider, so you banned her. You’re not sorry Super has because you’re mad at him over a personal issue also.
But apparently enough is not enough yet for Tracy, who has repeatedly exploded toward all of us here with some of the vilest, most vicious attacks I’ve seen on any blog. And , for good measure, tops it off by dragging it all over to Kos so she can continue her attacks on us with an ever bigger audience. Yet she is still here, isn’t she?
Meanwhile I hear more and more long standing solid members of this commmunity saying they may need to leave also. Do you hear this, Boo? Do you care? Because it sure isn’t sounding like it to me.
if Tracy’s day ever comes
WTF? Has she not already repeatedly and with malice aforethought violated every rule of decency? She’s the biggest prick I’ve ever encountered in the blogosphere, including parker and ecm and a host of DK’ers. She’s a shit-stirrer to the max.
And you’ve been doing some shit-stirring of your own, too. If you have nothing better to do than track down various little petty middle-school conspiracy theories about who told who when and who lied about who told who what and when about something that happened seven months ago, I’m flabbergasted, as I thought you were above that kind of thing. Especially playing it all out in public like that and then being so vindictive about it. Adults know that when they date people, it gets out, period. People talk, dude, get OVER it. If you wanted to keep it such a big secret, you should have known better than to tell anyone at this site about it. You should have agreed not to travel together to any function where bloggers/BT members were known to be located. DOH! The fact that someone who pays as close attention to this site as I do had no knowledge or concern about your personal relationship shows that the info had not permeated the airwaves through and through, but your whining about it has certainly put it all out in public for the entire blogosphere to see. And I don’t care who started it. The real question is what were you so ashamed of that you had to require oaths of secrecy and try to hide it in the first place?
When all of this “who’s dating who” crap started up I thought it was the silliest thing I’d ever seen. I failed to see why any of it mattered, but now I actually believe that it has clouded your judgment.
Both you and CG seem to me to be fine people. I still think a lot of good things about both of you and hope the best for each of you. I’m obviously disappointed about the current flame wars that you fanned and your choice of means to stop them, but that doesn’t completely change my total view of what’s left of this community or the good that we might do together in the future. Maybe you can learn something, or unlearn something, from all this…
For the record, though, I’m pretty close to leaving, too. I’ve always thought that the best way to handle disputes with people you care about is to stand and face the troubles, but I do have a breaking point. I don’t fault anyone who chooses to leave this place over the current mess.
And btw, if anybody ever cares to differ with anything I have to say, I will feel free to respond with profanity and ad hominems and then blame them for it all and stir up as much shit as I like without being banned. I will freely and wantonly accuse them of ‘baiting’ me and if they are mean to me back, then I will post attack diaries by small children and publish smear diaries at other blogs. Maybe I’ll get a “warning”. Ooooh, that’d be really scary. It’s almost as scary as the prospect that this particular comment will get troll-rated on a three-to-one ratio to fours. If you DO ban me, I’ll blame it on the fact that I’m a southerner and that all the people at BT hate southerners and their family members who live in red states, or some equally obnoxious non sequitur and spread that all over the blogosphere, too. Sound familiar?
I’m not going to keep this thing going.
There is some valid criticism in this but it isn’t exactly accurate.
So, let me clear just one little thing up and then I’m done discussing this.
The issue in July was that I merely wanted to know the answer to a factual question. Specifically, I wanted to know who emailed someone information about my private life. I didn’t care that the information was being spread, because I was taking no actions to keep my relationship secret, other than not posting about it on the internet. I cared because of the argument, the reason the information was being sent.
I was offended by the insinuation and wanted to know who was making it.
I know it may seem like I was trying to hide the relationship, but I wasn’t. I was pissed off that someone was trying to use it as a weapon to win an argument.
I don’t particularly like seeing it used again by someone who I suspect of doing it before and then have them tell me that they had no idea that any of this happened before. It’s a matter of honesty more than it is a matter of anything else.
Other than that, please see my other comment in this thread to hrh.
And I know a large contingent of people want me to ban Tracy. If or when she ever uses verbal abuse on this site again, she will be.
There as SO many things I admire about you Booman, but your response here just has me so disappointed. I can understand that having your relationship blamed for some of the problems here would be difficult. I think you’ve narrowed too closely on who you hold responsible for that AND I think its probably something you should examine rather than just react to. BUT I can understand that it makes you angry.
What I can’t understand is how you seem totally oblivious to the pain that has been inflicted on so many others here by Tracy’s outbursts – herself included. I have to believe that you see it – but to act on your pain and allow others to leave with theirs unadressed is just plain unacceptable.
And finally, to even imply that Spiderleaf created the flame last summer is just letting your anger at her get out of control. I know you were more inclind to blame Ductape in the past. And even though I don’t agree with that – you could make some kind of case for that. But Spider – come on.
This kind of thing will not go away. I suggest you find a way to deal with it. I’m ready to help in any way I can.
Do you want to know why I didn’t ban Tracy is July?
It was because she was in a very difficult emotional state and I happen to know her, and I happened to think she needed the community more than we needed to be free from the disruption. When I changed my mind about that I convinced her to take a voluntary break. And then she came back and asked me to erase all her diaries, which is a major pain which must be done maunally one-by-one. I erased all of them but the ones from Crawford because I convinced her they were historically significant. And then I thought the issue was resolved. Then she came back again and behaved herself for a while until this last outburst. She has been warned now that there can be no more outbursts.
I know that there are people vocally calling for her banishment. I also know that there are many people that are quietly hoping I do not do that. In the end, it will be Tracy herself that decideds whether she can be a part of this community. The ball is in her court.
Ultimately this is your blog and clearly your decision.
I’d just say two things:
I’m going to add a little from my professional life here just in case it helps. As you know, I am the director of a small (30 person) non-profit. Back around 2000, we had a staff turnover rate that was 40-45%. Our managers spent most of their efforts trying to “take care” of our staff because we were so afraid to loose anyone. Then we changed. The biggest change was that we went back to our mission – the kids. If staff were doing their jobs well in working with those kids – great. If not, we fired them. It was excruciatingly hard. But seven years later our turnover rate has now been less than 10% a year. People LOVE working there and are passionate about what we do.
Take from that story what you will or leave it. I offer it as an analogy to what is happening here.
Nancy, That’s an interesting story, about the change in staff turnover. I’ll bet there’s a lot more to the story. I’d be happy to read an extended diary about it some day, for what it’s worth.
Thanks Arminius. And you’re right – there is a lot more to the story.
I don’t know if I could do a diary about it all though. But I’ll plant it in the back of my mind and see if anything comes forward.
I just noticed–wasn’t Colbert’s famous quote about REALITY having a liberal bias? — BTW, I always like your posts.
You’re right – at the white house news banquet he said something about reality having a liberal bias. But in an interview a few months on his show (I don’t remember with whom) he substituted “information” for “reality.” Either way its a GREAT line.
<<The ball is in her court.<<<p>
The message I am receiving from this, as a concerned and affected community member, is that your need to befriend Tracy and meet her needs to be here, is of a higher priority to you than how any of the rest of us have been/are being affected (by her behaviors). This is how I am hearing it, but I want to check and make sure I am hearing you correctly. If I’m not, I will listen to the message you did intend to send.
the message you should be receiving is that she has no more leniency left for verbal abuse.
Either it stops completely or she can’t remain a member of this site.
I know you think I should have banned her by now. I know others agree with you. I hear you. I’m not ignoring you. I am just not agreeing with you.
We’ve been thru this with other members. I do my best to avoid banning people. Tracy has been a member of this community for a long time and I think we all know her situation and how it effects her from time to time. The one thing I agree with on is that she can’t have any more episodes. I issued the warning and I will not do anything further unless that warning is not heeded.
Do you think you are doing her a favor by allowing her to stay when her own daughter begs her to quit, for the sake of her family.
Diane-
I can’t involve myself in that. I hope you understand that I am unwilling to interject myself, or really even discuss, what goes on in member’s family life.
I saw that diary and hoped that no one would comment in it and it would stand as its own silent testimony.
Unfortunately, that didn’t happen. But I still refuse to comment on it because of the nature of it.
I have my own opinions but I don’t think I should share them and so I can’t respond directly to your question.
I will say that I am not trying to do people favors. I’ve issued a warning and either the problem goes away or it will be promptly dealt with.
I understand your point fully well Boo, however the problems to be seen are pretty visual to all of us.
Booman I have asked you this before many time and I will ask yet again, are you willing to make firm rules on this site (and not don’t be a prick cause that might include you at times) and institute a firm policy of temporarily blocking a member for infractions and then after that if a new offense comes up remove the privileges altogether.
It is my opinion that the repeat erruptions are always caused by those that caused the first, and while they remain on the site the possibility exists. There are so many things we can no longer bring up on this site, for fear it will be misunderstood, witness, Janet Damnit and her diaries.
I am really feeling and I wish you would open this up to discussion in a separate diary that members would like to see this and it could make a great difference to the future well being of this site.
This is a critical time for action, rather like the whole Iraq mess, are you going to take a firm hand on this and get us out of this mess or are you going to allow this to continue to deteriorate?
I am about to head off to take care of a few things and I will be offline for a while. I don’t want people to interpret my silence as indifference. I’m open to rules on suspension or other ideas.
This particular problem should be solved. There will be no more verbal abuse from this member and that is where it stands.
I’m fully aware that some people think I should just ban and be done with it. But she has the chance, if she wants it, to either stay away voluntarily or to engage in a civil manner.
If someone wants to set up a diary about rules I will look at it. I find that strict rules cause more problems than they solve. But combined with a flexible enforcement mechanism we might be able to tighten them up.
You’re probably gone by now, but I just want to ask one more question.
If that is your position with Tracy – can you at least, in all fairness, give the same courtesy to Spiderleaf? She did not ask to be banned, she asked if you were going to ban her as threatened. I might not agree wholeheartedly with that solution – but at least I could see some fairness in it.
NL, you posted while I was constructing my own reply (see below) and I will violate my statement to not speak of these matters again in order to second your general assessment.
Personally, I think that Tracy and her ilk ‘won’ when she brought out the ‘everybody at BT hates soldiers and military families’ crap. BooMan did a ‘John Edwards on Israel’ and sided with her. Who can afford to run a blog that hates soldiers and their families? And who can run a Presidential campaign without deferring to the interests of Israel? That’s my personal opinion, on both counts. Never mind that to insist on basic human rights for Palestinians is not de facto anti-semitic or that to suggest that if somebody held a war and nobody showed up the war couldn’t happen is not de facto ‘anti-troops’.
The outright distortion of DTF’s diary and the resulting fallout, still, these many months later, is a study in disinfo, whether intentional or not. I’m no DTF-lover, but I am a lover of truth and fairness. That diary was definitely not argued on its own merits, it was turned on its head and read backwards, or something, imho.
OK, I’m slow to think and type and missed BooMan’s reply. I stand corrected on the reasons for tolerating Tracy.
oh crap, this comment has the potential to re-open the whole ball of wax. I hope that doesn’t happen.
I discussed your basic theory (and confirmed it in part) in a long comment I made at MoBetaMetta in August. It went something like this:
I was actually not discussing DTF’s diary that appeared here but one he posted at MLW in which he said ‘We are all Hizbollah’. And I said that he wasn’t respecting the goals of the site, which are to help push for more progressive power. My point was that while we aspire for as much free speech and truth-telling as possible, there are clear markers and then there are blurry markers. A clear marker is that you can’t spew Karl Rove’s talking points here. A blurry marker is that you should use your own judgment about what makes the community look bad or can pulled out and held up to undermine us and everything we are trying to do. It’s a very tricky line and I just walked it in my discussion of John Edwards and Israel.
Jane Hamsher had a famous incident with the Joe Lieberman in black face thing. When you’ve got the national media asking Ned Lamont why he associates with such gutter-sniping then you are not really advancing Ned Lamont’s cause.
So, my point with regard to DTF’s ‘Hizbollah’ diary is that it was so obviously controversial that it was a positive threat to the community and its goals. And it shouldn’t be up to Maryscott to ban him or censor him. He just should think about what he is doing and what he is trying to accomplish and whether it is consistent with the goals of progressive sites that are working to elect people to office and not just make interesting points about world events.
In that context, I thought some of DTF’s more strident diatribes against the U.S. troops and the character of Americans were bumping along that blurry line.
Nothing he did here was as obvious as the Hizbollah diary, but it was still there…a tension.
Now, as for where I stood on the whole thing, it is difficult for to even say anymore. I tend to the position that something is offensive if people are offended by it. Sometimes, it’s true, I think people ought not to be offended by something. But I thought that it was pretty good evidence that his diary was offensive that several members were so deeply offended. At the same time, I wasn’t all that offended by it. I was more concerned about how it was making others feel. And I did weigh in to try to get people to see their point of view.
But it quickly got turned around by what I considered to be an overreaction. And then the issue wasn’t the diary anymore but the behavior of people on both sides to the diary. And I didn’t really want to take sides on that. I just wanted people to cool out and stop fighting.
So, yes, there is an element of worrying that troop-bashing is not a good image for the site to take. That’s a political consideration. And I think DTF has acknowledged that his style and goals were ultimately not consistent our the sites style and goals. But that is all something that fit into a much broader issue and set of issues.
So, you have a point. In other words.
oops, sorry. really. I didn’t mean to do that. I’ll really shut up about it now. wish i didn’t have to, but I see your point. This is basically about getting people elected, after all is said and done.
I was never aware of any diaries at other sites… for a long time after the pie wars and my introduction to the pond, I didn’t bother going to any of the other community sites. Like I said, I’m no DTF-lover and I had my complaints about some of his diaries too… nuff said. Better he’s gone from here of his own free will, I suppose.
I want to add one more point to this.
We are all familiar with the diary cops over at the orange place. And they come in for a lot of criticism. Even I criticize them. But they serve a purpose. They protect the brand of the site and keep it from being overrun by people that do not respect that the ultimate goal of the site is to elect Democrats, not give fodder to Republicans and Fox News. The bigger and more influential the site the greater the need for this. I just don’t agree with where they set the parameters and how they go about treating people. But I do sympathize with the desire.
There are always people that come to these sites thinking that there should be absolutely free reign to engage in any kind of speech. But, obviously, speech is restricted. Republican blather is not allowed.
Now I allow plenty of people to post here that have no use for Democrats and that think both parties should be plowed into the Potomac. I am lenient about it. But there are some limits and those limits would be magnified if the press started hanging on every word that is written here.
The main thing is that members should think for themselves. They shouldn’t censor themselves, but they should just consider whether what they are saying might be used as a cudgel against the community. Like I said, it is a blurry line and I don’t want there ever to be a need for diary cops.
I don’t want a chilling of debate. And I like a wide range of views, some contrarian.
I shall not speak of any of it again after this, unless provoked, and I will not speak again of anything personal about you that has come to light, period.
My final thought is that if any one of us is ultimately afraid of, or hurt by, the idea or fact that someone will use what they know about us as a tool to build an argument about us that we believe is false, we should stop living our lives and go hide in a hole somewhere until we starve to death. I understand fear, and I understand slander. I’ve lived with a lot of both. But I won’t validate those who do such things to me or anyone else by allowing them to change me into something that I do not want to become. By your very active pursuit of the gory details of the origins of the allegation you appeared to validate it to some extent, imho. If the allegation were patently untrue, why wouldn’t you just ignore and laugh at it? I understand to some extent why you would not ignore it and I’m not making the argument here that the allegation is true. I’m just pointing out that you gave it legs that far exceeded its own natural reach by pursuing it to the bitter end. And bitter it was.
I’m glad you weren’t actively trying to hide something as important as a personal relationship. I’m also respectful of you not having posted it all over the place.
If you haven’t figured it out yet 🙂 the leader of anything is the last to get credit and the first to get blamed. Been there, done that.
I’m not detecting perfection in you, but I’m not requiring it either. I will continue to make what contributions I can to this site for the foreseeable future.
Please forgive the portions of my previous comment that were inaccurate and/or sarcastic. I guess I’m a little bit guilty of projecting some anger of my own into the situation. I think I could have done a better job of expressing myself without it, though perhaps not… Anyway, I’m not perfect, but I don’t expect it from me, either.
Thanks for your reply.
no one likes to have their character maligned, nor to have their girlfriend hauled into a disagreemnet that has nothing to do with her. I don’t know anyone that wouldn’t be annoyed by that.
But I reserve a special place for people that are dishonest with me. The two things that have pissed me off the most in all my days with this site were repeated, uncorrected attacks on the integrity of Chris Bowers and the suggestion that I created a double standard to appease my girlfriend. In the latter case, all I did was vent my anger on the person that suggested it. And that is all I would have done this time if I hadn’t been lied to.
Thanks for your reply.
I understand your anger.
I do believe that there are levels of dishonesty and that things are not always so black and white. Dishonesty, or perceived dishonesty, may sometimes result from varying intentions, some good and some bad. I think you just might have taken it a little bit too far. But that’s my opinion and I respect your right to have your own. I have not been personally effected by any of it, and you have. I defer.
Not really my business, but I think that was too harsh. The quality of the essays here, especially the many from BooMan, is so high, that I’m happy to put up with a little schoolish b.s.
But I do agree with one point: like you, I spend a lot of time here, and I had no idea whatsoever about the tension about BooMan and his girlfriend until he dragged it out in long public arguments with Spiderleaf. It might have been better to take that to email or the telephone.
It’s just like the Delaware Dem flap. Nobody would have known about it at all if not for his own histrionics.
I’m mainly sorry to see Supersoling go, who was almost always on my wavelength.
Comparatively speaking, my “harsh” is mild. If you wanta see harsh, see what Tracy did to supersoling. That’s harsh. Me? Harsh? Tough love is how I see it, with a mild dose of sarcasm.
There’s plenty of high quality essays on the intertubes and BooMan ranks up there with some of the best most of the time. His political punditry and insights are highly interesting. His latest pursuits, not so much.
As for community feedback, email is running three to one in favor (as in, what the fuck took you so long).
I find this interesting Booman. Mostly because anyone I’ve seen commenting publicly on this site has told you they think it was a mistake. So if your emails are running 3 to 1 in favor, why aren’t those people speaking up.
And, care to tell us what the tally is on those who are suggesting you should have banned Tracy? Seems to me a lot of people have weighed in on that one too.
I’d like to drop this issue now, please. It’s a dead horse at this point. I have listened to what people have said and I made my decision. My decision isn’t going to change now. I issued a warning, and I have been clear that it will be enforced. We will probably come up with some clearer policy about how to deal with abusive language and then we will adopt that as a policy.
The banning that did take place is not related. That had to do with my personal opinion of that member based on what I know and what I think. It was personal to me. You poke me too many times and I think you are dishonest and ill-intended and…well…I’ll leave it at that. Nuff said. It isn’t a matter of fairness, that one member did this and got that. Separate cases.
Any member here that needs help or assistance or support is going to get a lot more leeway with me than someone I think is lying and has no respect for me and is meddling in my personal life.
hmm. Didn’t really answer you question, did it, NL?
Is there any other nation on earth where emotional instability is such a fetish?
‘Twas in another lifetime, one of toil and blood
When blackness was a virtue and the road was full of mud
I came in from the wilderness, a creature void of form.
“Come in,” she said,
“I’ll give you shelter from the storm.”
I thought I’d found my refuge, but no-o-o-o.
No GBCW from me – just love to you all, my contentious family.
You might hear from me, or maybe not. Who knows, who really cares?
I care, Alice. A lot.
I just dunno.
Maybe no “refuge” is meant to last forever.
Maybe we’re supposed to learn how to build our own, as many as we need, like birds who make brand new nests each year?
I just dunno, friend.
Love back to you too, friend.
I know the open thread is well, open, but something is going on in Diane’s diary that could affect this entire site. I urge you to take a few minutes and look in on that debate.