I shy away from talking about how weird Mormonism is, at least in my political work, because I really do believe that political parties and politicians should not promote or denigrate anyone’s religion. But it is a pretty strange set of beliefs, and a huge number of people have trouble understanding why they should trust someone who subscribes to those beliefs. To some degree the same can be said of any religion other than Christianity and Judaism. And, of course, this country was founded in a way that took account of the religious differences within Christianity. Our federalist system gives a lot of power to the states partly out of economic differences that existed in the late 18th-Century, but mainly because the colonies were founded and dominated by different sects. Congregationalists in Massachusetts didn’t want to be discriminated against by Anglicans in Virginia or Quakers in Pennsylvania, or Catholics in Maryland, or Baptists in the Carolinas. We couldn’t have created a country of united states without assuring all people could participate in our federal government regardless of their personal religious beliefs. It’s an extremely important principle, and I won’t ever disrespect it.
These days, every state has considerable religious diversity, as well as lots of people who aren’t religious at all. So, it’s not like religious people feel like they should choose a state to live in based on the religious history of that state. Atheists (and to some extent Jews) might want to stick to big cities or the coastal states if they don’t want to feel ostracized. And Mormons probably feel most comfortable in Utah and the surrounding Mountain States where people are used to their religion, or it is the norm.
Harry Reid is the most powerful Mormon in the country, and it doesn’t seem to present much of a liability for him. His religion is rarely invoked, and even more rarely with any kind of negative connotation. But it would be hard to know that Reid is a Mormon by merely observing him go about his business. He doesn’t wear his religion on his sleeve and he seems like a fairly ordinary guy.
Of course, religious differences are less important in Democratic politics because the party is inclusive and officially secular. I don’t mean secular in the mean and nasty way that Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck use the word. The party doesn’t promote secularism. But it operates with the secular principles of the Founding Fathers. All faiths and no faiths are welcome.
Now, I mention all this because it’s part of the puzzle in trying to figure out what is going to happen in the Republican primaries. Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are Mormons. Most Mormons are Republicans, both because of their social conservatism and because a high percentage of Mormons operate small businesses. But most Republican primary voters are not Mormons. In fact, a huge percentage of Republican primary voters are evangelical protestants who belong to churches that do missionary work in direct competition with Mormons. This segment of the GOP is extremely hostile to Mormonism and will not vote for a Mormon in the primaries. Some of them won’t vote for a Mormon in the general, even against someone like Barack Obama.
This makes it harder for Mitt Romney to win the nomination. He can do really well in the Mountain States, but they have relatively small populations. He can do well on the coasts and in New England where people just aren’t that interested in religion in a political context. He can compete in most of the Midwest; his father was the governor of Michigan in the 1960’s. But he’s dead in the water in the South, which is (ironically) the home base of the Republican Party.
The interesting thing is that the Establishment of the GOP, which is based in Washington DC and New York City, is fine with Mitt Romney. In fact, they have been unable to come up with a back-up plan in case Romney doesn’t do well in the primaries. Given that Romney has already given up on the first contest in Iowa and is bleeding support to Michele Bachmann in New Hampshire, it’s looking pretty grim for Establishment Republicans.
But I think that the main thing is not Romney’s Mormonism. I think he’s a shitty candidate. His flip-flop-flipping dwarfs anything that could be hung around John Kerry’s neck. David Plouffe, who ran Obama’s campaign in 2008 and will be running it again in 2012, has called Romney “a world-class political contortionist.” You can expect that label to stick.
Considering that Romney created a health care system for Massachusetts that became the model for ObamaCare, it’s surprising that Romney is ahead in the polls and has raised the most money among Republican candidates. Yet, his fundraising has been anemic. Maybe that is partly because the GOP plans on taking advantage of the Supreme Court’s Citizens United ruling to fund Super PACs. But, still, it seems like there is a decided lack of enthusiasm for Romney’s candidacy.
But if not Romney, then who? Former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty is getting no traction and raising little money. And the only other candidate with a resume is also a Mormon and also compromised by association with the Obama administration. That would be former Utah Governor Jon Huntsman, who served as the president’s ambassador to China.
Personally, I don’t want to be overconfident, but the GOP is failing to field a credible opponent. The last time this happened was in 1972. And I have all the respect in the world for George McGovern, but he was never going to beat Nixon. Mondale and Dukakis had far better shots.
If Romney wins the nomination he has a chance to do at least as well as McCain. But if someone other than Romney, Huntsman, or Pawlenty wins it?
In that case, we could be seeing Obama win in more than 40 states.
Did you see this interview that’s making the rounds yet?
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/how_to_understand_the_invisibl.php?page=all
I still have Bachmann beating both the Mormons simply by default. Also, too, I think Huntsman will win more of the vote than Pawlenty.
If Perry jumps in, it’s over. He will win the nomination.
There is always the Jeb Bush wild card. Keep in mind that although most people are repulsed by George W Bush, his approval rating has been steadily rising as memory of his Presidency dims and as the economy approaches 4 rotten years in a row. And Jeb is perceived as the smarter and sober of the two Bushes (admittedly, that’s not saying much, but it’s an important point of perception).
If we get to the end of 2011 with no acceptable GOP candidate and the economy getting worse look for a “draft Jeb” movement. By comparison he’ll seem the best choice, plus he’ll be “fresh” since he’s been out of the spotlight for 8 years, plus the media will once again pretend the Bush is a moderate while he quietly signals the religious base that he’s one of them.
Bachmann cannot win the nomination. Among other things, she has a serious husband problem. It’s beyond me why she even thinks she can run, but that’s denial for you. Her husband runs a Christian counseling service where he helps gays “overcome” their identity, and for which he has accepted medicaid. Of course, speaking of 40 state, we can dream –
And I thought Christine O’Donnell couldn’t win the nomination either. If I were to bet, I wouldn’t put my money on Bachmann to win, this is true. But if somehow Intrade were an actual functioning market with decent trading volume, I would spend every cent of my savings buying “Bachmann to win the nomination” stock, and sell it when that becomes more common wisdom. I would have done that during the census debacle, as a matter of fact.
But even though I don’t think she will win in a betting sense, I still have her winning statistically and logically.
And how did Christine O’Donnell do in the general? Christine O’Donnell didn’t win the nomination for president and never could. They won’t run a candidate for president who’s newsworthiness is 90% as an object of ridicule.
40 states? Sorry, but you are really outside of reality with that prediction.
First, the Republican base will vote in droves against Obama, no matter what they say otherwise now. They did it for McCain, they’ll do it for a Mormon. With McCain in the spring of 2008 so many of the big names (Limbaugh, Dobson) said they wouldn’t vote McCain, but come the fall they had not only endorsed him they were fully into the rallying around the election. They told themselves that they were really voting for Palin — but there will always be an “out”. After 4 years of firmly believing that the current President is a KenyanMarxistMuslimAtheistTerraist there is no way they won’t vote for the GOP candidate.
So that covers the rapid base, what about the muddled, low-information middle voter? If the economy is about the same as today and the TV networks are getting bathed in anonymous Swiftboating ads then the low info voter will mostly likely be blaming Obama and looking for another change. It’s possible, in that scenario, that maybe, just maybe, Obama would be able to squeak out a re-election victory in spite all that if his team is as good as they think they are.
But they won’t have the money advantage they had in 2008, nor the fear factor from the 2008 stock market crash, nor the excitement factor of the Democratic base. And they couldn’t get 40 states in 2008 — I can’t imagine them getting that in 2012 unless somehow the economy starts booming and Obama is given the credit by the voters.
And, on the religious theme, I found this comment particularly strange:
But it is a pretty strange set of beliefs, and a huge number of people have trouble understanding why they should trust someone who subscribes to those beliefs. To some degree the same can be said of any religion other than Christianity and Judaism.
Whyever would you except Christianity and Judaism from the list? Have you read their sacred texts? It’s not all “golden rule” and all that. Full of stonings and jealous Gods and illogical, contradictory statements — just like most religions. Yeah, Mormonism has some special weirdnesses, but I figure most people don’t look at those closely because they don’t look at their own religions closely — because if they did look at their own religions closely they’d realize how insane they are.
I’m sorry but this looks like your own prejudice getting in the way here.
Yeah, it’s very difficult for Democrats to win Reagan/Nixon style landslides. Maybe once Texas turns a bit more purple. A massive voter registration effort in TX would be nice.
Obama’s not any closer to winning even states like Arkansas or West Virginia.
Yes, the voters will accept whomever is the nominee so long as it’s “Not Obama.” I disagree with the election side of your argument and side more with Booman, but I would not be surprised either way tbh. Everything is very volatile, and it’s too hard to predict right now (especially without polling, which I’ll need to make any predictions about states).
I also see your point on the religion side, and that was my first reaction. But I don’t think that’s what Booman was arguing. I think he meant, “Here in America, that can be said of any religion other than Christianity and Judaism because our voters are overwhelmingly Christian, which also has roots in Judaism. They simply do not ‘trust’ the other religions.”
Also, putting aside the “blowout,” I can’t see the GOP winning Florida or Ohio right now. Their governors are destroying the Republicans. And without either of those states, it’s a done deal.
I live in Florida. I wish I could share your optimism on this point. Electing a fraudulent criminal has soured me a bit on the reasoning powers of my fellow Floridians.
Well, here’s Ohio:
I am definitely more confident with the Ohio situation than with Florida. He will probably win both by varying margins. It’s funny that the stupidity and nonsense of 2010 could turn out to be a net plus for the 2012 elections. Still doesn’t change the fact that we elected a fucking criminal here in the great state of Floriduh.
Problem for Dems is the way the GOP govs and lege’s in both states have tried to make it more difficult for Dem-leaning citizens to vote in those states as well as others.
Could mean millions of D voters won’t be able to vote or, because of backroom shenanigans by GOP operatives, have their votes nullified.
Bill Clinton raised this voter-suppression issue the other day, to his great credit. It’s something Dems in the blogosphere should be talking about, imo, and trying to correct. I think we get too complacent when we win — 2006, 2008 — whereas the actual situation seems to be that the potential for great election theft by the GOP is still out there, and may even have been in effect last time, despite the win by O.
it’s not my decision that people have no second thoughts about voting for Christians and Jews but hesitate when confronted with someone of a different religion. And atheists? There are 535 members of Congress and only one of them will admit to atheism.
As for your other observations, McCain was a much stronger candidate than Bachmann. McCain was a darling of the media (which helps, a lot) not an object of media scorn and riducule (which can help in the GOP primary, but not the general). McCain had a heroic biography and, at least, suffered terribly for his country. A whole lot of people are either like McCain or wish they were like McCain. It’s true that by 2008 he had worn down and compromised himself to death, but he had a lot going for him. Bachmann has nothing.
In a race between Obama and Bachmann, much like the race between Nixon and McGovern, no state is safe for the Republicans. She would have to work to convince people even in the Deep South that she’s prepared to be president. And she isn’t.
So, you think he will weather economic discontent and maybe have something of a “win” on the debt ceiling deal. I think he’ll try his best to present it that way.
Romney is going all in on Obama as a job-killing Hoover.
Republicans in the South come in these varieties: Non-Southern transplants from historically Republican Northeastern, Plains, or Midwestern states, from 10%-25% of primary voters, Southern country club Republicans who are not evangelicals (probably 15%-30% of primary voters), professionals of a libertarian bent (probably another 10%), and evangelical Christians (35%-65% of primary voters). Country clubbers will vote for Mitt if he’s the best establishment candidate; so will a significant number of the transplants. The libertarians won’t and the evangelicals won’t. He’ll do better in Texas, North Carolina, Virginia, and Georgia than he will in Lousiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, and Arkansas. Mitt will do better than McCain in North Carolina, Virginia, Houston, Dallas, and the Atlanta area, and worse everywhere else in the South.
Florida is only historically a Southern state now; north Florida is the last bastion of Confederate Florida and that is slowly disappearing. Central Florida is like Southern California. South Florida is a lot like Atlanta. Mitt does well in Central Florida, except among evangelicals, poorer in north Florida and well enough in South Florida.
If Bachmann is the Republican nominee (or one of the other dwarfs), Obama will carry North Carolina and Virginia, probably Florida, and lose Texas by a narrow margin. Bachmann then takes Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kentucky. That’s nine states in the southeast. To think that Obama takes 40 states means that he takes some of the following: Alaska, Wyoming, Kansas, Arizona, Idaho, South Dakota, Nebraska.
Missing from this is the reaction of party leadership to the GOP nomination. In some states, the party leadership will not be able to sell Romney and will treat him like a lot of Democratic leaders treated McGovern. In other states, it will be Bachmann who gets this treatment. Some of that is ideological, but some also has to do with personality conflicts within the party.
But we better have candidates lined up in case Obama does win 40 states and has coattails. That could produce some Senate race surprises.
I don’t know but I would kind of put Mondale in the same territory as McGovern in ’72. This is not unusual what is happening to the GOP right now. In my lifetime there have been some pretty shitty candidates on both sides. Mondale, Dukakis, Dole, Gore, Kerry were more effective sleep aids than ambien. Even though Ford, Carter, and HW Bush were president they weren’t actually very good candidates. I think if Perry gets in it sets up a real battle between him and Romney. Bachmann is just too weird even for the Republicans. Can’t see a rout with the shape the economy is in. Either a Wilson or W Bush type re-election or if the economy improves a little bit or/and the GOP nominee is damaged from the primaries then a Clinton sort of re-election. Wow, that last sentence was a big run-on mess! Time to go to sleep!
Gore and Kerry were flawed candidates, for sure, but let’s not forget that Al actually won the vote in FL had all the votes been counted and had the SCt not intervened to save the day for Shrub. And Kerry, also less than perfect, was still a solid vote-getter and probably won his race, too, and believes himself it was stolen (see on curious election results, Rolling Stone ca 2005 article co-authored by RFK Jr). He was actually a better candidate, by far, than his opponent of that year, and a more attractive candidate than McCain 4 yrs later.
As for this election, I don’t see anything but a tough race for Obama against slick Mitt, the most likely nominee. The major question this far out is whether Bachmann will show strong enough in the primaries such that it forces his hand and she has to go on the ticket, creating probably more problems for his electability than it solves.
Re Perry vs Romney, I see Gov Goodhair as some combination of George W. Bush and Rock Hudson from the movie Giant. So, some appeal factor there, but also the potential for saying something breathtakingly stupid. Plus being from TX and the reminder of that last disastrous GOP president we had from that state — too soon, as with Jeb and the Bush name, for voters to go down that road again.
I have an odd faith that a man who could publicly torture his family dog for 12 hours cannot be elected President of the USA.
If only somebody on TV would talk about that during an election.
OK, let’s try to count to 40. Against Bachmann or Perry. Under the biggest landslide in history case, 3 states are still lost. Under conditions of Nixon-Reagan landslide, 12 states are lost.
Best showing is still 38 states unless the GOP completely melts down like the Federalists did.
Alabama – Perry, Bachmann
Alaska – Obama (with Murkowski endorsement)
Arizona – Perry, Bachmann
Arkansas – Perry, Bachmann, Obama – swing state in landslide scenario
California – Obama
Colorado – Obama
Connecticut – Obama
Delaware – Obama
Florida – Obama
Georgia – Obama, Perry, Bachmann – swing state in landslide scenario
Hawaii – Obama
Idaho – Obama
Illinois – Obama
Indiana – Obama
Iowa – Obama
Kansas – Obama, Bachmann (Bushitis kills Perry)
Kentucky – Obama
Louisiana – Obama, Bachmann, Perry (swing state in landslide scenario)
Maine – Obama
Maryland – Obama
Massachusetts – Obama
Michigan – Obama
Minnesota – Obama
Mississippi – Obama, Bachmann, Perry (swing state in Landslide scenario)
Missouri – Obama
Montana – Obama
Nebraska – Obama, Bachmann (Bushitis kills Perry)
Nevada – Obama
New Hampshire – Obama
New Jersey – Obama
New Mexico – Obama
New York – Obama
North Carolina – Obama
North Dakota – Obama
Ohio – Obama
Oklahoma – Bachmann, Perry
Oregon – Obama
Pennsylvania – Obama
Rhode Island – Obama
South Carolina – Bachmann, Perry
South Dakota – Obama, Bachmann
Tennessee – Obama, Bachmann, Perry (swing state in landslide scenario)
Texas – Obama, Bachmann (They know Perry)
Utah – Bachmann, Perry
Vermont – Obama
Virginia – Obama
Washington – Obama
West Virginia – Obama
Wisconsin – Obama
Wyoming – Obama, Bachmann, Perry (swing state in landslide scenario)
Obama can win Arizona. Especially against Bachmann.
Depends on who is allowed to vote. But that was a big question mark in my mind. Stuff is moving around quite a bit there. It’s not clear where public opinion would come out.
But Bachmann is the sort of pseudo-caring person individually who could buffalo senior citizens by “niceing them out”.
I would not underestimate Bachmann. There is a whole lot of the country who haven’t seen the chronic crazy, and her handlers are trying to get her to tone it down a bit but still keep tossing enough red meat that she doesn’t lose her crazy base.
But 40 states is still a stretch unless the GOP implodes dramatically in front of God and everybody.
I’m feeling slightly better about 2012 than I felt about a month ago, now that the indicators are coming back a bit for the economy. (It’s a good thing we still make some stuff in this country, because I don’t know where we’d be without the surprising rebound in manufacturing following the recession.)
Still, we’ve got a long way to go to next November.
I would not vote for a Mormon. I would never vote for anyone whose RELIGION HAD MY BLACK ASS GOING TO HELL CAUSE I’M BLACK – IN MY LIFETIME.
Maybe my future kids will believe differently, but I have a hard time believing that anyone grown now, who grew up Mormon (Reid converted), doesn’t harbor ill will towards my Black behind.
PLus Mittens has an actual public record when it comes to Black folks – and it’s as ugly as I thought it would be from a Mormon.
So, no, at this current time, I’ll not vote for a Mormon.
No shit! I forgot that part! Part of the required genealogy research for membership is proving you’re not “corrupted” by too many drops of African blood in your veins.
Mormonism is plenty weird. I lived in Salt Lake City, read “The Book of…” and had the local Ward leaders knocking on my apartment door. It’s one thing for Reid to be elected in a predominantly Mormon state and then act like a reasonable person. The current leadership of the cult seem to be fairly reasonable guys.
But when you get into the idea of a Mormon being in charge of the whole country you come up against the issue that made JFK declare that the Pope would not be telling him what to do just because he was a Catholic. Everyone knew who the Pope was back then and he looked like a benign saintly fellow compared to the current, ex-Nazi Pope. Everyone knew Catholics had free will.
But with the Mormon faith, their leadership is a shadowy figure and the church’s structure is entirely authoritarian. I mean, seriously, Mormons get told who they can work for, who they can marry, and when they can get married. Most of them do exactly as they are told and feel very comfortable with having their lives organized by “higher authority”.
And their whole deal is based on their leader having “visions” straight from God and them surviving the end of civilization as we know it! Whadaya think having a two-year supply of food on hand is all about? They expect to survive and rule the world! Now Romney might declare that he’s really only a Mormon-in-name-only but otherwise who would be stupid enough to vote for a president who actually wants the country to collapse and has like-minded others with food, guns and ammo, prepared to swarm out of their bee hives and dominate everyone else!
I guess I need to study how Romney got elected Gov. of MASS. How did he convince voters he wasn’t a closet insurrectionist? Doesn’t matter. If he’s the nominee, the above is the poison pill I would slip into the drinks of every Republican voter in my vicinity. I’d say, you think Obama is a dictator? How do you feel about some unknown dude in Utah dreaming of making the movie Mad Max become real-life? Ya don’t like taxes, how would you like a law making it mandatory that you take 10% off the top of your income and pay it to the LDS? They say “Jesus” but their idea of “Jesus” and your idea of “Jesus”, ain’t the same thing at all!
Once this flag has been unfurled, Romney isn’t going to do well in New England or the Midwest or anywhere else that isn’t already under Mormon control.
It wasn’t just a matter of people seeing the Pope as a benign figure, a view actually not entirely true of the non-Catholic population, or their somehow knowing Catholics had free will. It was the fear and distrust of the Other-ness of the Catholic religion that bothered the non-Catholics, mostly Protestants of 1960.
And the most in-depth post-election survey of that campaign, by the Univ of Michigan (cited in the Sorensen bio of Kennedy) showed Kennedy’s Catholicism hurt him — perhaps to the tune of 4.5 million votes — in an election he won by a razor-thin PV of only slightly over 100k, as the number of Protestant Dems who would normally have been expected to come back to the Dem fold after voting Ike in the 1950s was well short of what statistically should have been.
Religion was a big deal then and nearly cost the Dem the WH. Probably still an important factor today, too — but maybe not to the same extent it appeared to be the sole or overriding factor it was in 1960 with so many. I think that among the people for whom religion is a key issue — largely those in the GOP — they may have one more important concern, namely getting Obama out of the WH, an incumbent-removal factor not present in 1960.
Romney right now looks to be the strongest GOP candidate of those currently running. And he’s not going to get away with trying to distance himself from his religion, given his major church-state obliterating speech on the issue in 2007. Likely he’ll want to talk all he can about the economy, and maybe our foreign wars, and avoid any more major speeches on religion in the hope that voters won’t worry about it if no one is talking about it.
I couldn’t give less of a shit about the mormons and their pretend religion when the president, the democratic president, wants to cut medicare, medicaid, and Social Security:
Who cares if the moprmon wins, if this is what the democrat wants to do? What’s the fucking difference, both of them are ensuring that my old age is humiliating and devastatingly poor.
relax. have a jelly donut or something.
Disconnect yourself from any media until September 1. You are just seeing the start of this bumpy ride.
Better yet, set the alarm clock for Oct 1 and see if the USA is still operating.
Don’t honor this farce as kabuki by letting it get to your emotions. As for logic, suspend it until Oct 1. The members of Congress have.
This is probably a giant waste of time since you seem to have your mind firmly made up, but perhaps you may be open to some actual facts concerning “Mormonism”. I AM a Mormon and was raised that way. My parents were Mormons and my maternal grandparents were Mormons, all very active in the Mormon church. I am a 60 yr old woman and have been active in my church and my faith my entire life. No one (including my husband) TELLS me anything! I chose who I wanted to marry, where I wanted to marry, how many children I wanted and when I wanted them. Mormons ARE christian and it gets a little tiring having other people who profess themselves to be christians, set themselves up as judge and jury of who is or isn’t a follower of Christ. It seems to me that John 10:27 is pretty clear, Jesus Christ knows his sheep (followers). I’ll just rely on his opinion of who is or isn’t a “christian.” Finally, I agree with you I don’t think many and maybe most of the Republican base will be voting for Romney. Neither will I. Mostly because he had the bad sense to align himself with the Republican Party (my church doesn’t tell me who to vote for either).