While Timothy Egan’s righteous rant about the damage done by George W. Bush’s presidency is certainly warranted, and his condemnation of anyone who would oppose the current president’s foreign policies based solely on partisan considerations is fully justified, I wonder if Mr. Egan understands that people have learned more and better lessons from the Bush years than not to trust their government. For every lunatic who thinks that Muslims are about to arrive on our shores in ships and planes and take over, there are people who have learned the difficulty and costs of getting involved militarily in large Arab countries that have demographic and sectarian tensions.
Mr. Egan spits out the word “isolationists” with naked contempt:
The isolationists in the Republican Party are a direct result of the Bush foreign policy. A war-weary public that can turn an eye from children being gassed — or express doubt that it happened — is another poisoned fruit of the Bush years.
When I read something like that, I think about the citizens of other countries besides our own. Are the people of Norway or Brazil or Angola turning a blind-eye to dead children because they are “war-weary” or because Bush lied about Saddam Hussein? There’s this idea that simply by virtue of being born here that citizens of the United States are more morally responsible for war crimes than anyone else. If nothing is done about a chemical attack in Damascus, then we are all somehow complicit, indifferent, callous, amoral, and unworthy. But no one says that about the people who live in Australia or Canada or the Cayman Islands.
Lost in this kind of analysis, too, is the possibility that the American people are reflecting a common wisdom that the Syrian civil war is irresolvable by foreign military intervention and that once we go in for a penny, we’ll be in for a trillion pounds. It’s as if Mr. Egan thinks that the public can’t judge anything on the merits. We’re either for humanitarian aerial bombardment or we’re against it, and if we reject one intervention we must reject all interventions. One premise of Mr. Egan’s argument is that we learned the wrong lessons from President Bush and this is preventing us from following President Obama’s leadership.
I don’t think that is quite correct. I think we learned that skepticism is warranted when the government leans on classified information to justify military action. I think we learned that we can’t trust the cost estimates of war-planners and that we can’t rely on their assurances that they know what they’re doing. We learned that countries like Syria and Iraq are going through a sectarian resorting that makes them particularly volatile, violent, and hard to govern. We learned that we’re not any good as occupying forces and that spending all our expendable income on war is costing us dearly here at home where needs are not being met. We learned that we can’t take it upon ourselves to punish every tyrant who attacks his own people. In short, we learned some humility.
So, those of us who think the plan put forth by Obama is hubristic and dangerous are not saying that because Bush was a disaster. We’re saying that because it’s our judgment.
The world will be a more dangerous place if America is unwilling to ever take unilateral action to protect international norms, but that’s not what this is about. This is about a specific action taken against a specific nation in response to a specific crime in a specific context. Is it possible that the American people have simply looked at the specifics and said ‘no’?
What is it with VSP’s and their bloodlust? If I didn’t know any better I’d say that 98.7% of them have small dingalings(H/T Chuck Berry).
Nice Corbett take-down.
How do these guys get elected?!
In all fairness, after Dick and W’s disastrous mis-administration, we lost a hell of a lot of credibility around the world.
And, after having tortured, we really can’t go around moralizing anymore.
And, after using white phosphorus in Fallujah, who the feck are we to lecture anyone about using chemical or biological WMD’s?
The slander “express doubt that it happened” is some that needs to be knocked down. The one substantiated fact in all of this is that there were at least 600 people who died from exposure to some sort of neurotoxin. That fact is not in dispute. Using the slander of “some express doubt it happened” as an index of callousness of the people opposing intervention is a red herring as is the idea that the opponents are isolationists.
We need to have a 20-year-overdue conversation about US national security without these sort of dishonest talking points. And part of that conversation needs to be about who exactly national defense is defending us from. Why exactly do we need to keep forward deployment and meddling in other countries? What are alternative strategies for a more modest, less expensive, and possibly more effective national defense that respects civil liberties?
Instead we have arguments from fear and, when those don’t work, arguments from liberal guilt. And always the intent is clear–to stampede the reluctant into either war, more sacrifice of civil liberties, or more expenditures for a bloated military industrial complex.
In certain historical contexts, isolationism is a valid and workable strategy. Ever since Munich, isolationism has been trotted out as a club to beat opponents of military expenditures and military actions about the head. Enough of this dishonest argument.
Yes.
That this possibility doesn’t even enter Egan’s mind is a sign of tunnel vision or propagandistic intent.
This sort of default militarist, oops, “internationalist” view is basically made possible by the existence of our absurd bloated seven seas military, which pretends that no military mission is impossible and always assures that “something can be done!” anywhere on earth if our blathering elite with their shame/honor fixation deem it our sad burden to bear. Hence the Cayman island citizens (as well as all of Europe) get a moral pass, because of military impotence. Only WE are deemed do-nothing monsters because we idiotically allow half our national treasury (and more) to be pissed away on the Imperial Soldiery and their (always expanding) “capabilities”.
As Jerome Slater recently wrote, one would not think the problem of America in the past 25 years is our reluctance to get involved in foreign wars. Snarky, but the Empathetic Emoting Egans can’t bear the thought that we might miss a single opportunity to bomb for peace!
Noah Berlatsky, The Atlantic: What Makes America So Prone to Intervention?
“A conversation with Stanley Hauerwas, pacifist theologian, on Syria and why “humanitarianism” is a red herring.”
R2P is cynically being used to justify wars of aggression. Needs a major re-think.
Love that article. I take the point about the draft. Andrew Bacevich also elaborates on the point in his book “New American Militarism”.
But what really kicked me in the gut was the comment:
We so called peace loving Americans really need to be 24×7 thinking, working and protesting on the military budget, on arms manufacturers in the US, on preventing young people from buying into the militaristic propaganda. Because when most of the country gives all that a free pass, the US is ready for war, like it or not.
General complaints about the MIC or hypocrisy because white phosphorus in the left blogosphere aren’t going to change the facts about our outrageous military budget and militaristic society.
I don’t agree at all. We had a discussion about that in this thread:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2012/4/24/153910/951
I remember the post. And my opinion has not changed from then.
Hauerwas is/was a conscientious objector and has been a counselor for conscientious objectors. His statement about the draft is one of his loopier views, likely colored by the ethical seriousness of those who were conscientious objectors to Vietnam.
In fact, a draft makes it much easier to escalate as LBJ did and Bush could not–which Bush handled by redeploying troops on a grinding schedule that created extreme hardships for families and virtually guaranteed high levels of post-traumatic shock disorder in veterans.
Hauerwas is at his best in discoursing on the religious aspects of American civil religion. And doing it from a Christian critique of idolatry.
And American civil religion is something that a lot of self-proclaimed atheists succumb to in thinking about war and peace.
However, Andrew Bacevich was in the military and his son was too. He is for a return of the draft. One doesn’t have to be a CO to be for a draft. But I think we all know there are some political/practical issues that make it unlikely.
I regret including that line about the draft in there as it was the other point that really hit the nail for me. (And no one responded.) And that is, we’re not likely going to turn away from overuse of military options if we don’t work more full-time to reduce military spending, tighten weapons export controls and pursue other means of deglamorizing the military in our society.
Welcome to the team, BooMan.
You will be a full-scale isolationist when you reject talk of a duty of rescue and denounce the idea, very popular among our rulers, that we are or should be “the indispensable nation.”
When you can no longer seriously believe “the world will be a more dangerous place if America is unwilling to ever take unilateral action to protect international norms,” or concern yourself much about it without first asking, “for whom?”
Without shame.
My Senator (Chris Murphy) voted against the resolution on the merits. While I disagree, I completely understand the points Booman and others make. It’s messy and an unpleasant decision.
But the British Parliament voted against it because the Lib Dems need to separate themselves from Cameron and the Conservatives before the coming elections. This was an easy way to do it. Similarly, GOP congressmen are going to vote against it, simply because Obama is asking for it.
Understanding that the “merits” of the case are slippery and hard to prove, I understand why people may say, “Not this time.”
But a lot of these decisions aren’t being made on the merits. It’s either done out of political calculation or reflexive paranoia about military action.
Exhibit A:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/09/rep-coffman-backs-away-from-military-action-in-syria.php
This is true, but I think that going into Syria would be a big mistake on the merits. As such, I’d rather have us stay out of a potentially disastrous war for bad reasons than jump into one for good reasons.
That’s a very simplistic view of what happened in Britain. As I understand it, a number of conservative MPs voting against the resolution, and even more failed to show up for the debate. In short, a good number of members of his own party failed to support Cameron.
A number of Democrats are going to vote against this resolution despite party politics and, apparently, a number of Republicans will vote for it (including among the party leadership), again despite party politics.
At this point, I’m not willing to say that anyone who votes against this thing isn’t doing it on the merits.
I’ve been… pretty annoyed by some of the arguments being made to oppose intervention in Syria, but this post is spot on. The US doesn’t have some unique responsibility or license to unilaterally uphold international norms. It’s an argument that refutes itself as soon as you state it clearly.
Is it more OK to blow up children than to gas them? Or grownups, for that matter? Because not matter how limited the strike is, when you shoot missiles at countries you tend to blow people up.
If there was an active, ongoing gas campaign, then it would make sense to blow up the people who are carrying it out, but I’m not aware that that’s the case.
If it’s intended to send some kind of message, that’s what diplomacy is for. Messages sent via missile are commonly misunderstood. And what if, say, Russia, or Iran, or Israel decided to interject a few comments of their own?
If the intention is to knock out their capacity to wage chemical warfare, that would require having enough people on the ground to go in and secure all the facilities.
At any rate, no, it isn’t turning a blind eye to point out that killing even more people isn’t going to ungas anybody.
To me this action, if it occurred, would be entirely about chemical weapons, and not about the Syrian civil war. I still don’t think we should do it, because I haven’t seen a plan that would work yet. Not optimistic I will see one. But inaction is just as dangerous as action here. The peace flag doesn’t fly either way.
I’m giving Egan a pass because he put the image into my head of Dubya in the tub paining his toenails. And I owe him big time for that.
Seriously, it’s a short piece and he’s going after the Republican bastards that lied to everyone and led the US and many in the world into a profoundly evil action. Easily 200,000+ Iraqis are dead because of it. But yea, there are parts of the tone that make me go hmmm.
What I like about Egan’s piece though is that it reminds us of an old adage about how “generals are always fighting the last war”. And while I think that is less true in the military these days, I think it is very true among the blogs and radio shows. We all think and discuss within the framework of our experience and knowledge.
I think that idea is very much worth discussing. WAY too many people are drawing analogies to Iraq on the 2-4 most critical points that just aren’t there. They are “fighting the last war” in their minds.
And Iraq was a doozy of a war to have as part of the shared experience of an age cohort. Given the threads of continuity from Gulf War I in 1991, and perception that both wars are part of a larger effort, this goes quite far back. That experience is a major influence to form the judgment about such matters. The only other way we can get beyond that is to rely on the work of historians.
So when you say, “We’re saying that because it’s our judgment.” I’m just asking us all to also try to think about where our judgment comes from and what events, facts, values, beliefs and people helped to form it.
People who were 18 and maybe old enough at the time and interested enough to observe Gulf War I and remember the “support the troops” mantra they were taught by the media – are 40 today. That makes for a lot of Americans for whom a massive scale US war crime is the prime example of their nation at war. Judgment is subjective. I would not want to underestimate how big an impact the Iraq events influence thinking about war.
So what did we learn from Iraq? Booman you list a lot of really good ones. I disagree only a bit with “we’re not any good as occupying forces”. The Bush administration had the responsibility to set the tone of occupation right away. I don’t know if anyone can do as badly as he did. (Check out “Imperial Life in the Emerald City”)
I seldom read any accounts about Libya in the analysis. (I also realize generally is going on now there.) And I NEVER read any inclusion about the many occurrences when Clinton seemed to be lobbing cruise missiles left and right. And I find that odd because it seems to actually have some similarities with regard to the proposed scale and means of attack. But that was P.D., pre-Dubya. No, Iraq hangs over the collective minds of this country very heavily.
For a long time the US was “traumatized” by Vietnam. Some of us on the left never forgot the lessons although notables like John Kerry deluded himself into thinking he could betray his own personal lessons and get away with it.
We’re each a product of our times.
I wish I could believe that the American people object to this for such good reasons. Many of you here, and on other liberal sites, have very good points. But you are not the general public. Among my friends, usually very bright, compassionate people, I am hearing that we shouldn’t become involved because it’s too expensive or because we shouldn’t trust the government. Making policy decision based on selfishness and paranoia is not good, and I blame Bush for that tendency. What I’m hearing from the Republicans is even worse. They’re either in favor or starting a full scale war, or opposed because Obama wants to act. This conversation is not showing Americans at our best. I’m just praying that the people who actually have to make the decision will do so for the right reasons.
Well not just because Bush was a disaster. If we had all the lives and money and political capital that Bush pissed away in Afghanistan and Iraq we’d probably have a better chance of success. It’s possible that such a thing would change the calculus and it’s possible it might not.
But we don’t, so it’s a moot point really.
Also: Libya is going toward Somalia.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/03/libya-oil-supplies-tripoli
That doesn’t mean Booman was right. The people arguing now would all be dead. But it’s an illustration of our own powerlessness.
Well, do you think Obama should have sought congressional approval before bombing Libya? Or should have Obama sought congressional approval before he sent the Seals get Osama? Or maybe Obama needs congressional approval for sending Special Forces to the Congo? The current GOP would have voted NO just because Obama asked their opinion. The current GOP treats foreign policy like a card game named War. No strategy or no plan for the future just luck. Yep, we were lucky 50,000 of our troops did not die in Iraq.
Libya. Yes. But to his credit, Obama and allies did get a UN Security Council resolution after much patient work.
Pursuit of Osama bin Laden. Clearly covered in 9/11 Authorization to Use Military Force. Bush already went to Congress.
Special Forces to the Congo. Yes. Obama needs to go to Congress. The public deserves explanation of what our national interests are in these deployments. We are not a military state in which the military operates independent of national defense.
Article 1 of the Constitution gives Congress and only Congress the decision to declare war or authorize force and to define the what.
Article 2 of the Constitution gives the President the responsibility of commanding the military on behalf of the American people as directed by Congress — in other words, the how.
The current GOP behaves as they do because they have neither real decisions nor real accountability. And because in the House, there are now multiple factions of the GOP contending for party power. Why they vote is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether the policy is a good policy for the country or a bad policy.
IMO, the President’s proposal to conduct a limited strike on Syria is a bad policy and the fact that there Democrats arguing out of the motive of just getting the President’s back is bad policy and political thinking.
I don’t really agree with you about what the Articles say, or rather, how they’ve been practiced since…John Adams.
Josh Marshall is much more correct, along with some commentary:
Who has war powers?
In practice, the president’s decision is all that matters. A president’s power is only constrained by the material furnished him by the country and the willingness of congress to impeach and convict him.
No one has ever been impeached for using the military or intelligence apparatus to kill people.
In fact, impeachment and aggressive congressional oversight of military activities have only arisen (until the investigation of Bill Clinton’s penis) in situations where congress felt that the president was being insufficiently aggressive or punitive toward the country’s enemies – respectively, when congressional Republicans established a committee to oversea progress of the Civil War during Lincoln’s administration and the impeachment of the conciliatory Andrew Johnson during reconstruction.
What if congress does not furnish war funds? The president may simply order the military to act and ignore how it is being funded – there are endless ways to split hairs over what appropriation is funding what operation, and endless ways in which a president may argue that congress is overstepping its bounds by telling him, say, that it did not buy a particular batch of cruise missiles with the intention of lobbing them at Syrians nuns, or whoever it is we’re going to bomb. Once again, he can simply say “Come at me, bro” and challenge congress to impeach him.
What about nuclear weapons? It’s theoretically a two-man system, even at the top: the president can’t personally order a weapon launch. The Secretary of Defense needs to agree, and the practical ability to give the order demands codes that only the Defense Secretary possesses. If they disagree? The president can fire the Defense Secretary. If the next man in the chain of command disagrees with the president as well? The president can fire him, too.
Can the president be stopped from simply firing men until an acting Defense Secretary agrees that it’s time to create some artificial sunshine? A majority vote from cabinet members can declare the president incapacitated, which should loose him from his powers – but cabinet secretaries serve at the pleasure of the president.
What if the president and his cabinet disagree? We’re back to Mao: political power is ultimately wielded by guys with guns. The Secret Service and the military would have to take it upon themselves to decide who ought to wield that power – who ought to wield them.
The idea that it is their will which directs politics is unsavory and foreign to a mind used to byzantine, domesticated power systems – it seems downright silly and Strangelove-esque. Not only, however, is their will the universal rule, but deviations from its bald faced exercise are historically unusual. Complicated webs of traditional restraints and legal guarantees such as our own haven’t been very effective at preventing this fact from expressing itself over time. Eventually, the men who hold the guns remember that they’re holding the guns.
Who has war powers? The people with war powers.
http://editors.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/09/am_i_all_wet_on_war_powers.php?ref=fpblg
It all depends on whether you operate with a constitutional system or a Machiavellian system. The constitutional system established clear checks and balances that were greatly blurred in the Truman administration because of the “imminent” threat of a nuclear exchange. And have become almost erased in the Obama administration with the “imminent” threat of a “lone wolf” terrorist. And Congress gave up its power without much of a struggle; they didn’t want the responsibility of making the tough decisions requiring a lot of foreign relations homework.
I’m not sure that the Secretary of Defense is much of a brake on Presidential power anymore, if they ever were.