The administration’s argument for limited punitive strikes against Syria to uphold an international norm against the use of chemical weapons is destined to fail with progressives. But this fact is largely unrelated to the merits of that argument. Were the administration to actually convince progressives that this was the actual beginning and end of their policy, most of us would probably agree to it. I think most progressives are still supportive of anti-proliferation efforts and international norms against things like gassing innocent women and children. I think most progressives can be convinced that there is still a role for America to act outside of the United Nations if one or more of the permanent Security Council members is using their veto to allow some proxy ally to commit crimes against humanity.
But progressives are teeing off on the administration’s argument because we know that the administration’s Syrian policy is to create the conditions for a negotiated settlement of the civil war that involves the abdication of Bashir al-Assad. I think most progressives are sympathetic to every part of that policy except the part where we are the ones creating the conditions. That last part is a little controversial. The goal makes sense, but the methods used may or may not make sense.
One thing that is not working with progressives is the effort to quarantine the punitive strikes from the overall policy of regime change. It isn’t working because the administration has been forced to assure members of Congress, mostly on the right, that our punitive strikes won’t be quarantined, but will make some real progress in fulfilling the overall regime change policy. We knew that was part of the goal already, but to see it confirmed in plain language makes it impossible to buy the lie.
Secretary of State John Kerry likes to refer to this feature of the limited punitive strikes as a “downstream effect.” What this means is that our strikes will help our overall policy even though that is not the intent of the strikes. The problem is both that it is not believable that weakening the regime isn’t going to be part of the intent of the limited punitive strikes and that it is hard to see how it would be a good thing if it is not.
The civil war in Syria has devolved into a largely sectarian conflict in which the majority Sunnis are fighting everyone else, and our policy is to not allow the Sunnis to prevail outright but, rather, to protect minority faiths in a future pluralistic and ecumenical society. That’s a decent and noble position to take, but it isn’t an easy one to execute. In the Arab world, minority rights have traditionally been respected only because the Europeans drew the maps and installed minorities in power. Sunnis went unmolested in Iraq because Sunnis ran the country, In Syria, the same was true of the Alawites. The idea that we will weaken the Alawites enough to force the abdication of their leader but not enough that they will be slaughtered is hard to credit because it is so difficult to achieve.
Even in a perfect world this would be difficult to achieve, but the task is made nearly impossible when we can’t even be honest about the policy with the American people.
America has more Sunni allies than Shiite allies but we really don’t want to take sides. Yet, whatever we do will be perceived as taking one side or that other. When push comes to shove, we want to marginalize Iran and empower the Sunnis, even if we don’t want to admit it. And these proposed limited punitive strikes cannot ultimately be divorced from the overall anti-Shiite policy.
Because the real game involves taking sides in a sectarian conflict, progressives simply won’t go along with the idea that this debate is about chemical weapons and international norms. We know that the strikes will be put to the furtherance of a sectarian fight and will not be simply about human rights.
When push comes to shove, we want to marginalize Iran and empower the Sunnis, even if we don’t want to admit it. And these proposed limited punitive strikes cannot ultimately be divorced from the overall anti-Shiite policy.
Add to it the fact that people like Bill “William the Bloody” Kristol see this as a means of hopefully getting Iran drawn into the conflict somehow. Why do you think clowns like him and Old Gluehorse are supporting it? And what happens when the missles start flying if a destroyer of ours is sunk? Or if Putin, or the Chinese, come to Assad’s aid? I guess what I’m saying is that those that support intervention better hope this doesn’t turn into WWIII(If any attack on Assad ends up taking place). Remember that little tussle between Georgia(the country) and Russia back when W. was still president? Does anyone remember how that almost turned into WWIII thanks to Darth Cheney? Or Old Gluehorse’s “We’re all Georgians now!!” blather?
One other thing. I see, in various corners of the intertoobez, that Democrats/Progressives/Lefties who don’t support intervention are getting called a new name now. KosovoDems. It’s meant as a slur of course just like Emoprog and Firebagger. And it just goes downhill, and gets nastier, from there. What I haven’t heard those interventionist answer yet is how does it feel to be on the same side of the issue as Bill “William the Bloody” Kristol. The guy that’s never been right about anything. Do they understand why Kristol, and his ilk, are supporting intervention? I sure hope so because Kristol isn’t going to be satisfied with just lobbing a few Tomahawks and Kristol sure as hell doesn’t care about dead kids or refugees.
If people who do niot automatically accept doing nothing is is teh proper course of action are to be derided for “being on the same side as Wm Kristol”, the equally inane response is, “how does it feel to be on the same side as the Tea Party?”
Is all the Tea Party against intervention? Just those that don’t receive MIC cash? What also makes your statement wrong is that Kristol has a history. Tell me why would Kristol support this, if you know anything about his history? We all know he doesn’t give a shit about innocent women and children getting gassed. He’s rooting for this to become something bigger. Like WWIII bigger. Do you remember what the stated goals of PNAC were/are?
Yours is just a variation of the “appeal to authority” logical fallicy. It’s just used in mirror-image form.
LOL!! That’s what all your buddies are making, just in the opposite direction.
I supported NATO in the Kosovo intervention. That was a “Noble Cause” it was straight forward.
This situation is a mess and we have an extremely shady reputation in the Middle East. Not just because we got 200,000 Iraqis killed in the name of freedom. We have also supported the illegal occupation of Palestine forever. We cozy up to a non-democratic monarchy in Saudi Arabia for oil. Maybe we need to chill.
I don’t understand why people who are against this intervention are “KosovoDems”? They have to be fools not to see the difference.
Gassing innocent MEN is also pretty ghastly, I’d say. And aren’t there ever guilty WOMEN who might get gassed or whatever?
I don’t know what point might be lurking in this snarky call to gas “guilty women” but whatever it is is lost in the message’s ugly cavalier attitude.
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Speaking of morals and conscience in the 21th century. Just watched part of a documentary on Al Jazeera about the Salvadorization in Iraq. Policy set by Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld, executed by Gen. Petreaus with the mention of two mystical figures: Jim Steele and Special Forces Colonel James Coffman. Because the training of a new Iraqi police force was nor effective in a surge of Sunni led terror attacks, the Pentagon decided to train “police” commandos drawn from the Shia community and belonging to the Sadr militia. These death squads of terror, torture and murder were very effective to start a full-fledged sectarian war inside Iraq which is still raging. One Sunni sity that suffered greatly was Samarra, where the mosque with the golden dome was bombed.
Found only a single mention of “Fraga 242” here @BooMan, a diary by danps in 2010 – State-run Iranian media beats the NY Times on WikiLeaks reporting. Of course, the “Salvador option” was witnessed and reported at the time. With “Fraga 242” the order is laid at the desk of President George Bush.
Excellent reporting by Steven D in October 2006 – You Get What You Pay For, and in Iraq We Paid for Death Squads.
Mustn’t forget that the rise of the US backed Iraqi militias was after Abu Ghraib become public knowledge in early 2004. And it was Geoffry Miller that Gitmoized Abu Ghraib.
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You wrote,
I think most progressives are still supportive of anti-proliferation efforts and international norms against things like gassing innocent women and children.
Well, yes, we all support motherhood and apple pie.
But I don’t want to be a mother or bake a pie.
I think most progressives can be convinced that there is still a role for America to act outside of the United Nations if one or more of the permanent Security Council members is using their veto to allow some proxy ally to commit crimes against humanity.
Um, no.
Done with all that.
Sick of it.
There is always another asshole and always another war crime, or some other damned crime against humanity.
America first, thanks.
No, I don’t want you using my granddaughters as human shields for al-Qaeda rebels in Syria or Israeli settlers on the West Bank, or anybody else at all, please.
No, thank you.
I’m balking because I don’t see how strikes achieve the stated goal, which I guess is linked to what you’re saying in that I simply do not believe their stated goal. Add this to the fact that as time has gone on I’ve gotten more and more antiwar and pacifist because the stated goal is never really why we do shit, which inevitably leads to clusterfucks.
Also, add more to the fact that I do not WANT to marginalize Iran. Iran is our natural ally in the region, and we keep out reaching a clenched fist, not an open hand as Obama promised.
Can we really have Iran is our ally if Turkey is our ally?
Both are better than the Saudis however, though ironically their forcing women to wear veils has cut down on the MERS-CoV cases among women there.
IMO we can have both Turkey and Iran as allies. And IMHO, that is a preferable alignment to continuing to support a Kingdom of Saudi Arabia that is totalitarian, supportive if Islamic jihadism, and possibly among the backers of al Quaeda (or includes royals among the backers of al Quaeda).
The huge question is can we have both Israel and Iran as allies, which is not as problematic as it might seem; in the not too distant pre-Bibi past Israel and Iran were allied out of concern for Saddam Hussein.
To borrow a phrase, the inconvenient truth here is progressives oppose intervention because democrats are supposed to have better/different foreign policy strategy than the repugs– and what we’re seeing from Obama in regard to Syria is the same as what we saw with Bush.
The inconvenient truth is Obama appears to be going along with the pathetic PNAC neoclown, “seven democracies in five years” plan supported by Kristol, etc.
“Sorry”, I and many progressives aren’t buying into the flimsy “but this isn’t war” pretense from Obama/Kerry, “this is a limited strike”– because Obama and the rest cannot guarantee “limited” intervention will not escalate into something larger and more dangerous in the region, a larger war that we get sucked into due to the inevitable blowback coming such as our bases or embassies being attacked, an attack on Israel.
Notice how Obama, Kerry, Kristol, etc. haven’t said a word regarding the huge uptick in sectarian violence in Iraq. I guess this is their idea of “democracy in action”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/29/world/middleeast/iraq-explosions.html?_r=0
Smartypants has a great post, as always on what Obama’s trying to accomplish: http://immasmartypants.blogspot.ca/2013/09/president-obama-and-wmds.html
Thanks for the link.
I get it, but one problem here is the massive hypocrisy/absurdity of the “red line” regarding the use of chemical weapons in Syria– but apparently Obama/Kerry, etc are OK with the fact Assad has killed over 90,000 people using conventional weapons??
Sorry, no amount of “we have to understand Obama is playing 11th dimensional chess” makes up for this hypocrisy.
Why does Obama not come out against the use of all weapons by Assad in Syria, and for that matter, the entire Middle East?
Here’s why: Because sadly weapons are the number one export of the United States. and this is why congress, for example, is not likely to cut off the $1.3 Billion in “aid” per year for Egypt– even tho’ the military there just overthrew their democratically elected government– because that Billion dollars actually doesn’t leave the U.S. it goes to U.S. jets, tanks, arms manufacturers who provide this hardware to the Egyptian military. Sweeeet, eh?
Of course Obama is not going to vigorously come out against this public subsidy of private enterprise, so let’s dispense with the notion Obama is making a “noble effort” to deal with nukes or chem weapons.
The thing here, no has actually show how this will do anything to strengthen the norm. Maybe a few people who already stand strong against chemical weapons will feel better but:
If we degrade Assad’s power, won’t he be more likely to use chemical weapons in desperation mode? So does that mean regime change is required?
3. No one else on the ground will take this as a chemical weapons lesson. No one.
They will see it as us hating Assad’s guts and seizing on this as an excuse to remove him. They will see it through the lens of their own interests such as degrading Iranian and/or Russian proxy. If the people most likely to use chemical weapons don’t see it as saying anything about chemical weapons, how is the norm strengthened?
If – as the Hezbollah source suggests – Assad snapped and used chemical weapons because he was losing key ground, then denying him the use of chemical weapons would weaken him. He’s not using sarin because he’s a monster. He’s using sarin because he needs to. The monster part is just an add-on feature.
If the US degrades his ability to use these weapons, then his grip on power would weaken. I don’t think it would require us to stay more involved militarily.
Syria will be a nightmare for years to come. Just as Libya and Egypt and Iraq will be. But the sooner a post-Assad Syria begins, the sooner that chaotic period ends.
Regime change cannot and should not be the point of any US military action. But if it’s a side effect, so be it.
That “Hezbollah source” has no evidentiary authority. There is no reason to think he knew anything more about it than you or I do.
I think most progressives are still supportive of anti-proliferation efforts and international norms against things like gassing innocent women and children.”
Nah.
Current events are proving this assumption wrong. If this was really seen an ideal among self-identified progressives, then this President’s call to action would have been met with much more support and much less derision.
When the cost of “opposing” the use of NBC weapons is measured by the effort needed to generate keystrokes then fidelity to one’s ideals are of paramount concern. When the pressure is on to actually do something, when it is clear there is cost to one’s ideals, then the excuses begin.
I know I will never again read without eyerolls a self-described progressive rail on against the use of nuclear weapons at the close of WW2 . Those keystrokes come easy, as there is no chance of going back in time and experiencing a tangible cost for action on this “unwavering” belief. For waver it would, were said idealist to stumble through a wormhole and find themselves and/or their loved ones on a troop transport in the Pacific in August 1945.
Or maybe the President’s call for action could have been based on more definitive/public evidence.
That’s just another dodge to mollify guilty feelings for being presented with the need to make an uncomfortable decision, and abstaining.
Assad’s forces conducted the attack.
I’m balking because:
I hope that the President comes to his senses about this, ignores the bleating of John McCain and Lindsay Graham, and fires a whole bunch of people for this setup and for incompetence.
He can then revisit the information when the UN releases its inspectors’ report and work with the other Security Council members to arrive at an appropriate punishment for the guilty parties.
Or he and John Kerry can do some diplomatic heavy lifting and get the remaining countries to sign and ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention. Angola and Myanmar should be easy to bring on board. Israel is the key to getting Egypt and (ironically) Syria to have no excuses. Once those are in place, China can be pressed to get North Korea as a signatory.
That is, if the issue really is about the proliferation of chemical weapons.
I’m with you on this, THD.
And unlike some commenters, I do think it’s vitally important whether Assad was responsible for the gas attack. Because everything I’ve seen points the other way, and if that is the case it means we’ve been set up.
Max Blumenthal, Mondoweiss: Shady PR operatives, pro-Israel ties, anti-Castro money: Inside the Syrian opposition’s DC spin machine
Dream on! The actual choice is between Assad’s Soviet style state and The Islamic Republic of Syria, future home of jihadis against the Great Satan.
But progressives are teeing off on the administration’s argument because we know that the administration’s Syrian policy is to create the conditions for a negotiated settlement of the civil war that involves the abdication of Bashir al-Assad. I think most progressives are sympathetic to every part of that policy except the part where we are the ones creating the conditions. That last part is a little controversial. The goal makes sense, but the methods used may or may not make sense.
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