Maybe the Boston Globe is right and Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts missed her best chance to run for president in 2016, but she’s throwing her hat in the ring anyway. Making a New Year’s Eve announcement may not be the best calculated move to get the maximum amount of attention, but she will at least have a couple of news cycles to herself. She even changed her Twitter handle from @elizabethforma to a @ewarren in order to lose its parochial flavor.
Naturally, her announcement was accompanied by a video heavy on biography and economic populism. If you’ve followed her career, you won’t be surprised by her messaging, although I don’t consider that a bad thing. Her messaging has been her biggest strength. Where she’s run into trouble is in allowing herself to be defined in the media by her adversaries.
I find it instructive to compare her to Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio who is also seriously considering a presidential run based largely on economically populist ideas. Their images are almost diametrically different. Sen. Brown, with his gravelly voice, unkempt hair and rumpled suits, is at risk of being typecast as the candidate of the white working class who doesn’t appeal to the more ethnically diverse Obama coalition or meet the identity politics/#MeToo Era-driven desire for nonwhite non-male leadership. Sen. Warren, running with basically the same rationale, is at risk of being typecast as a divisive figure of the coastal elites and intellectual left who has no prayer of unifying the country.
Both of them desperately need to fight back against these narratives to be successful candidates in the primaries. In truth, both of them have the potential to excite the base with populist policies while also using their excellent communication skills to sell those ideas to enough white working class voters to deliver a thumping (and unifying) general election victory.
Sherrod Brown is in a bit of an unenviable position. In a midterm cycle where the Democrats generally did very well and made a big comeback in the Midwest, Ohio proved to a major exception. The Democrats were slaughtered up and down the ballot in the Buckeye State, and that made Sen. Brown’s comfortable reelection there look like proof that he has a magic touch with the exact kind of white working class voters that Trump poached to win his Electoral College miracle. But if he is perceived as the champion of that group of voters to the exclusion of the larger ethnically diverse coalition, it will doom him in the primaries.
Sen. Warren is being widely criticized for not doing better in her reelection campaign where she received fewer voters than Republican Governor Charlie Baker. The narrative suggests that she’s a weak vote-getter and maybe not even that popular with the voters who know her best. But it’s hard to see why it matters how well Warren runs in Massachusetts. She needs to run well in early states like New Hampshire and Nevada, and with California coming early in the 2020 cycle, she’ll need to do well there, too.
Most observers believe she bungled the “Pocahontas” controversy when she used a DNA test to argue that she was correct in saying that she has Native American heritage. Perhaps that didn’t turn out as she hoped, but the main vulnerability for her there would be in a general election where the issue could be used to drive a wedge with people who are fed up with identity-driven politics. If that weakness has the potential to blowback in the primaries, it’s mainly by making it harder for her to convince people that she’ll be a strong general election candidate.
In the end, Warren needs to get to where Brown is starting out (by demonstrating that her message has real appeal with Obama-Trump voters) while Brown needs to play down that image and show that he will be a real champion for women and millennials and on civil rights.
It’s a shame to talk about these candidates like this because it’s all about image management rather than policy. Yet, when you look at who is sitting in the Oval Office today, it’s impossible to argue that policy is what will decide the winner of the next presidential election. Both Brown and Warren have some serious work to do on how they’re portrayed in the media because that creates a perception about who they are and who they seek to represent.
I’m pretty comfortable with Warren on who she’ll represent. As detailed by our executive editor Gilad Edelman in our November/December 2017 issue, she has been way ahead of the curve on taking on corporate concentration. To see what I mean, I also recommend reading the speech at the now defunct New America Foundation’s Open Markets Program event on June 29, 2016. Or you can watch the video:
If Warren focuses on these issues, she should be able to convincingly portray herself as a politician who will sincerely and credibly stand up for the small businessman, the entrepreneur, and the American worker. And that’s what a Democrat will need to do in 2020 to win a landslide victory.
“…Both of them desperately need to fight back against these narratives to be successful candidates in the primaries….”
Why? Are Democratic primary voters going to be listening to Republican propaganda?
(For the rest, Republican attacks on any Democratic aspirant are going to be 99.44% interchangeable.)
Are Democratic primary voters going to be listening to Republican propaganda?
No.
They’re going to be listening to neocentrist, DNC-driven propaganda, propagated by the bought-and-sold mainstream media. As with Sanders in 2016, the neocentrist media has already begun its anti-progressive campaign.
It will only intensify.
Any candidate who is likely to win the nomination…no matter what public pronouncements they might make…will have to accede to the old guard in the back rooms. Aside from theoretical, identity politics-driven choices…and they are theoretical if only because the inevitable bounce-back from racially or sexually driven choices largely negates the practical political impact of those choices as far as I can see, at least on a national level…aside from those kinds of choices, I think that the front-runner ticket as of now is Biden/O’Roark. Both have proven that they’ll play ball, and both have a strong and easily marketable image. Plus, O’Roark’s youth will serve to mute the age questions about Biden.
However…”There’s many a slip ‘twixt the cup and the lip,” as my wonderful Irish grandmother was wont to say. All kinds of stuff can happen, and usually does.
Stay tuned…
AG
. . . (old) white male identity politics, there, bucko:
I wrote:
Not my choice, arguebonita. Not by a long shot.
Simply my observation, especially since Trump so successfully tapped the angry white middle class/working class vote.
For every identity politics-chosen candidate, it’s probably something near a 1 to 1 voter trade. Maybe even more lopsided. 1 to 1.5 or so. Or worse.
People who identify with whatever “identity” the chosen candidate represents go out to vote for that candidate, and those that do not particularly like…or actively dislike…that particular identity go out to vote for for some identity that they do like.
One with whom they can “identify.”
Unfortunately.
I personally believe that we should be voting on issues, on proven honesty, and on proven political and governing experience and record. I don’t give a damn “who” a candidate’s parents might be, in what portion of the culture they grew up, where they came from, what religion they profess (or do not profess), their age, the color of their skin or their sexual preferences/sexual equipment. Hell, I don’t even really care to which political party they might belong.
Or not belong, in the case of Bernie Sanders
If if you think that the ideas above constitute “old white male identity politics,” then you are full of shit.
Simple as that.
Go pick your nits elsewhere.
AG
. . . politics” that do not fully recognize that the only relevant (because the only significantly impactful, successful) “identity politics” in this country are, and always have been white identity politics (including the subcategories white male identity politics and old, white male identity politics) . . .
. . . and therefore those white identity politics are the only identity politics that are a significant problem worth even discussing . . .
. . . is doing the devil’s work of promoting dishonest rightwing propaganda.
(As I’ve noted before complaints about “identity politics” — never heard of until white dominance began to feel itself threatened — are very analogous to the way the 1% only complain about “class warfare” when we show the audacity to fight back in self-defense.)
So OF COURSE, tha’d be what you do here!
I am looking for a new “identity politics,” oaguabonita.
I believe that the real majority of eligible voters in this country do not trust either major political party, do not trust most of their candidates and do not trust either the 1/7th of the PermaGov iceberg that shows above water nor…particularly, and with good reason…the remaining 6/7ths that lurks under the surface.
Even the bought-and-sold pollsters cannot hide this simple fact. Sure, some voters hold their noses and choose the lesser of two evils…whichever “lesser” evil seems best to them…and sure, there are millions of media-trance induced dupes who actually believe the demented ravings of most of the leaders of one r he other of those parties. This blog is awash in them.
But it appears to me that a new identity politics is coming ’round the bend…hopefully soon because if it doesn’t happen soon it will be too late.
The Majority “identity.”
All the people who are fed up with bipartisan lies.
If that identity group showed up at the polls, whichever party it chose would win by a landslide.
Of course…the two parties are well entrenched in their own barricades of lies, lies that are breathlessly reported as the truth by their various captive media. The very last thing on earth that those lying liars want to see is a major politician with real charisma publicly calling them out, thus the centrist waffling of both parties, and thus the entirely predictable major media efforts to discredit anybody who shows effective signs of rebellion against those lies.
“The center” is where the lies live!!!
It’s where they are born and propagated.
A Democratic Party that ran the murderously false Barack Obama on the “Peace President” hobby horse? That tried to foist a Hillary Clinton that was so obviously full of “public and private” horseshit on the American public that they voted quite heavily for a TV reality show carny barker?
And you support the engineers of that loss?
Still!!!???
WTFU.
AG
I’m with you there. The engineers of the absolutely atrocious Clinton campaign are still firmly in charge of the Democratic Party and there will be no meaningful change until the base calls for their heads. But what you mostly hear on this blog, and particularly Josh Marshall’s blog, is dead enders, constantly defending the indefensible cowardice and servitude of the Dem leadership, not to the base, but to their BIG donors.
The foregoing notwithstanding, Dems are still sooooooo much better than Republicans. They really can’t be equated. So I will continue to vote for the lesser evil and work my hardest to wake up the coward-excusing base.
Adding (while nearly forgetting the topic of this post) that I truly believe that Warren is one of the good ones. She should have run in 2016 and I would be proud to have her as a candidate. Unfortunately, any woman would likely lose because of mysogynists and the way too many women who will vote pro-misogyny.
What I heard in her announcement is “I’m not as far Left as Bernie”. Not really a call to the ramparts.
Still, I’ll vote for her if no graft shows up. Is there a Warren Foundation?
. . . blah . . . blah . . . dumb . . . blah . . . blah . . . implausible . . . blah . . . blah . . . delusional . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . paranoid . . . blah . . . blah . . . regressive . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . disproportionate . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . misdirection . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . false . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . dishonest . . . blah . . . Reality-denying . . . blah . . . blah . . . obvious (duh!) . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . diversionary . . . blah . . . blah . . . trite . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . ridiculous . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah . . . lie . . . blah . . . blah . . . . . . blah . . . ]”
Capsule summary of your entire oeuvre here. Did I miss anything? (Rhetorical!!! Obvious answer: nothing significant.)
Yes, absolutely. I have been saying for years that white identity politics fully informs the history of the Americas since Christopher Columbus. The USA in particular was founded on the three original sins of genocide, slavery and religious intolerance. All three were outcomes of white identity politics and specifically white supremacist identity politics. We fought a civil war over white identity politics and have struggled with the ongoing racial violence, reactionary social and economic ideology and religious fanaticism of the fundies and evangelicals.
The other identity politics are mainly an attempt to get out from under the oppression of the white supremacists.
. . . (or at least I never) heard of “identity politics” until white dominance felt itself slipping, felt the success of its own white identity politics to be no longer absolute, but under threat.
Hence, in standard, hypocritical, “conservative”/Banana Republican projection, what the white power structure had been doing with total success all along got the label “identity politics” invented for it — for the purpose of slapping it on the perennial victims of white identity politics, once they dared to begin to fight back.
All of which seems so transparently obvious to me that I am constantly gobsmacked that anyone could ever take seriously the clearly dishonest (and mostly racist!) complaining about “identity politics”.
AG writes above:
I personally believe that we should be voting on issues, on proven honesty, and on proven political and governing experience and record.
Arthur spent August to November 2016 on this blog driving wedge after wedge after wedge at the Frog Pond in open attempts to persuade community members to withhold their votes from Clinton.
Arthur was confronted last week with the memory of the multiple diaries he wrote in 2016 which reported his conversations with Trump voters in conservative areas of New York and Pennsylvania. He was asked why he didn’t confront Trump voters with his arguments against the Republican Party candidate as he did here against the Democratic Party candidate. His response?
Did I “lecture” Trump voters in the hinterlands of PA + NY??? Outnumbered, not from the area and without a weapon to defend myself? Hell no!!!
That is the response of a “man” who wishes to dispense ultra dramatic super hard right winger bullshit.
AG didn’t confront Trump supporters because he supported Trump. He wasn’t lying for once when he wrote above “…I don’t even really care to which political party (the candidate we should be voting for) might belong.”
Arthur spent August to November 2018 on this blog driving wedge after wedge after wedge at the Frog Pond in open attempts to persuade community members to withhold their votes from Democratic Party candidates.
Among the issues AG has addressed here over the years:
Arthur is a sexist, racist, radical right winger, in line with his political idol Ron Paul. Arthur tiresomely and implausibly defends his idol here against the voluminous evidence of Paul’s racism, sexism and regressive, unworkable political platform.
We can be certain of this: As long as Arthur participates here, he will continue to try to drive wedge after wedge after wedge at the Frog Pond in open attempts to persuade community members to withhold their support from the leader in the Democratic Party POTUS primary. He will follow that with nonstop criticism of the Democratic Party POTUS candidate from August to November 2020.
There are many community members here whose histories make it clear they are offering sincere criticism that the Democratic Party and its candidates are too centrist. Arthur has not earned our belief in his sincerity.
The only “wedge” that I am trying to drive here is one that will make sleepers awaken to the lies of both parties.
Until then?
Same old, same old.
Over and over and over again.
The Dems win. Then they get caught out. Then the Ratpubs win. Then they get caught out.
Over and over and over again.
If we do not get out of this rut soon, the country is going to collapse.
And it ain’t gonna be pretty.
Bet on it.
AG
P.S. I support:
1-Ending the Permanent War economy, bringing all possible troops home and doubling down with that saved money to repair our infrastructure, our educational system and our cultural system.
And that would necessitate:
2-Ending the corporate ownership of the government by any means necessary. If corporate money couldn’t buy candidates’ successes…and failures, if said candidates showed the slightest signs of rebellion against the corporate-owned Deep State…then conditions would change so fast here that it would seem like an American Renaissance.
3-A fierce attack on the climate crisis, no matter what the cost in the convenience of already way over-entitled U.S. citizens
But NOOOOoooo…
You just want to go on playing the same old word games.
Go ahead.
Your days are numbered, one way or another.
Either we experience a political sea change for the better or the country tanks within a decade if not sooner.
There are no third options, as far as I can see.
Deal wid it.
AG
Arthur, Happy New Year. Thank you for reconfirming that your domestic policy agenda includes the hot, regressive mess I’ve summarized here.
Do you agree with Ron Paul that Medicare and Social Security are unconstitutional? Do you also agree with him that the best health care system would be one where the public sector is out of the system entirely, including the ending of public funding, quality and safety inspections and licensures for professionals?
Centristfield…Happy New Year. Thank you for confirming hundreds of times that your domestic political agenda includes supporting the neocentrist views of the DNC, views that have failed this country at least since 1969.
Do you agree with the PermaWar economy? A system that has set the U.S. up as the #1 enemy of in the view most of the world’s sentient population? Do you agree with complete corporate control of both major parties? Do you agree with a “health system” that is now solely a for-profit system that benefits not the people of this country but only the Big Med, Big Pharma and Big Insurance corporate interests hat run it? At last look, the U.S. health system was rated 20th in the world. Good work, UniParty!!! Do you agree with “public funding, quality and safety inspections and licensures for professionals” that is a failure up and down the line? Do you agree with a broken educational system. With a for-profit higher educational system that guarantees the majority of students crippling debt and a worthless degree?
Your every post implies that you do.
Go away.
You hype for a failed system.
AG
I hate the permanent war machine. Even President Eisenhower, with all his expertise and political capital on the issue, declared himself and the United States overtaken by the military industrial complex. It’s an extremely difficult problem to solve. You behave as if it’s a simple problem to solve, and that we should cooperate with sexist white supremacists who wish to deny voters the franchise who make shiny promises to respond to your desires on this issue. I vehemently disagree.
I think the Citizens United and McCutcheon Supreme Court decisions have greatly harmed our need to reduce the massive influence of money in politics. It was unsurprising to me that all the SCOTUS judges nominated by Presidents from the Democratic Party were in dissent in those and many other bad decisions by the Roberts Court. I love the move to more efficient and successful solicitations of small dollar donations and volunteer help for political campaigns, but I’m not willfully blind to the fact that the vast majority of campaigns which have the most money win.
I despise privatizations of K-12 public education. I was very happy that the California Democratic Party overwhelmingly endorsed a candidate for State Superintendent of Public Education who was a foe of the charter schools, helping our endorsed candidate defeat another Democrat in November’s general election who ran charter schools and whose campaign was extremely well funded by the charter corporations. I think Arne Duncan was one of President Obama’s worst Cabinet members. I want State and Federal governments to provide much stronger regulations of private sector higher education, and I’m interested in seeing governments providing debt relief to students as long as the colleges’ tuition and fee costs are regulated so it doesn’t result in obscene transfers of public money to private hands.
Regarding the health care system, it remains much worse than it should be, but you are quite wrong in your belief that it is entirely a for profit system. The private sector dominates too much of the system, and private non-profits are often abusing the public with margin-taking, anti-competitive strategies. Nevertheless, County and State hospital and clinics operate throughout the U.S. It is Ron Paul who would like to do away with those public, truly not-for-profit providers which are more responsive to the voters.
It appears that you believe all public funding should be pulled from the health care system, and that the private sector should be freed to deny patient care, charge whatever they want for services and harm patients with unsafe staffing levels and quackery. I disagree strongly with your view.
Do you agree with Ron Paul’s view that Medicare and Social Security are unconstitutional? Don’t be a coward. Answer the question.
You ask:
“Do you agree with Ron Paul’s view that Medicare and Social Security are unconstitutional?”
Not being a constitutional scholar, I neither agree nor disagree. The so-called “constitutionality” of many and various concepts has been so argued, discussed and changed over the history of this country that it is a moot point as far as I am concerned. The corporate-owned hustlers who run this government are the final arbiters of that concept today, and I do not take a word from any of them or their hired judges as much more than a calculated lie meant to enrich their patrons.
Do I believe that individual states…preferably much more independent than are the the states that comprise the U.S. today…could do a better job of protecting their citizens in matters such as these?
You’re damned right I do.
Look at where we stand in terms of healthcare compared to the rest of the world. What do the 36 countries that lead the U.S. in that area have in common? They are all of a size that permits the people’s will to be expressed in law.
You say “It appears that [I] believe all public funding should be pulled from the health care system, and that the private sector should be freed to deny patient care, charge whatever they want for services and harm patients with unsafe staffing levels and quackery”
No.
I believe that the whole political system needs to be somehow downsized to the point that the will of the people…the true majority of the people…is expressed and enforced by law.
I had a conversation with someone today who does good, conscientious research work for organizations funded by the (federal) Center For Disease Control. I asked if the Trump government shutdown had affected his job. He laughed and said “No. Everybody is afraid of getting sick and dying!” He is aware of the inefficiencies inherent in the CDC’s federal setup, but he works with what’s available. We are all “working with what’s available” on every level of the culture, but the problem is…it’s not working very well!!!
Back to the smaller healthcare systems in that link:
My friend said “Everybody is afraid of getting sick and dying!” And given a more efficient governmental and voting system…one that is closer to their own lives and areas of need, one that is not totally dominated by multinational corporations out for as many juicy U.S. dollars as they can rip off…that is what people would get. Good healthcare.
It’s certainly available!!!
Here are the 36 countries above us in that link:
I believe that the U.S. is now right next to being ungovernable, and that some form of either real independence or at least much more power to local governments would produce better services for all, in the long run. So does Ron Paul. And yet you go on kneejerking for acceptance of the Democratic Party…owned and operated by the forces that are taking this country down, just as is the Republican Party…as some sort of “savior.”
Your beliefs are implicit in your name.
Centerfielddj
You’re just some DJ sitting right smack in the center of the centrist game, playing the records the bosses tell you to play. Over and over and over again.
Nice work, but I’m gonna talk through your bullshit every time you cue up another jive record.
LOUD!!!
Bet on it.
AG
If we were to begin splitting up the U.S. as you advocate here, Medicare and Social Security would no longer exist as they do now. Making elderly people destitute and desperate, preventing most from safely exiting the workforce doesn’t meet any definition of progressive I’ve seen.
Tell us more. Your New Confederacy is just what the community wants. You’re doing great.
The “community?”
You mean you and a few others?
Oh.
Thanks.
Everybody else?
Those that disagree with you?
Just dupes, fools and trolls for the Russians or he dreaded right wing.
When and if this country “reorganizes” itself…or quite possibly disorganizes itself in some kind of chaotic shakedown…it is my belief that whatever bad things happen to people who live here will be the fault of the mainstream political parties, the corporate interests than own those parties in direct violation of your revered “Constitution,” the now almost nonexistent free press (also owned by the same corporate interests) and the people like you who failed to take action as the decay of the political system became more and more clear.
Fools and/or cowards, all.
All except the hustlers.
They’re just flat-out thieves.
AG
. . . achieved equal or better health care at lower cost than the U.S. by devolving coverage to independent systems at subnational levels (provincial, regional, municipal, etc.) as you suggest. Your belief that superior outcomes at lower cost are achievable that way defies all available evidence and is typically (for you) idiotic (which, of course, is why none of those countries attempted to do it that way!).
Of course they will, because the messages will be echoed by the media, by troll farms, and by various groups trying to exploit the Democratic party. If I had a dime for every time I heard or read a Democrat talking about Hillary’s (irrelevant) emails or (nonexistent) corruption I’d be a wealthy man.
Besides, Warren is a candidate who could also appeal to a lot of INDEPENDENTS and REPUBLICANS (namely, those on what she calls “the ragged edge of the middle class”)– and that must be prevented at all costs.
Trump was engaged in usual habit of tweeting how great he is this morning when suddenly his tweets stopped… just minutes after Warren made her announcement.
For him, she is probably a delightful distraction from what he sees in the mirror every day and by being the first out of the gate she will also bear the brunt of Trump’s attacks immediately.
That’s reality and even if she is well spoken and I agree with her policies, she’s going to have to get a bigger megaphone if she wants those policies heard over Trump’s attacks.
Well I think Trump’s attacks on her will result in giving her a bigger megaphone. Our “he-said, she-said”, horse race rooting, both-sides media can’t help themselves.
She’s made some mis-steps along the way but she’s also very good at boiling down problems and solutions into sound bites that main street America can understand.
She’s also good at pointing out the GOP’s BS.
I think she has a shot at being heard.
I think the Dems have a circular firing squad that kills off all the good people and ideas. There’s McCaskill on her way out taking shots at AOC and McDonnell telling us that Medicare for all is a non starter in Indiana and the ” middle” of the country. And Joey the Lip and the Third Way and PayGo are never far away. Kill off the progressives. Once you do that you become a speaker for the republicans. So my question would be how do we overcome it. Failing that we get nowhere and in two years we fall back to the loyal opposition. And good folks like Warren and Brown and AOC get no where. Maybe we need to grow a pair, or something,
I have already had the problem explained to me earlier today. Sure, Warren sounds like FDR, but what we really need is Eugene V. Debs.
Co-determination is for weenies. Expropriate the expropriators! It’s Clause IV or go home.
What is with your weird obsession equating progressive advocates with Bolsheviks and old school borderline Communists? It’s a bullshit straw man argument and it’s your only schtick. If you disagree with progressive policies, address them on their merits rather than yelling “Lenin! Marx!” That crap might work great on Fox News but it’s inexcusable here. Come up with something productive to contribute to the conversation instead of this repetitive nonsensical claptrap.
. . . No charge.
No one on this site or anyone I know within the Dem party is advocating f’n Communism. His comments are worthless and add absolutely nothing to the mostly informed dialogue here.
. . . would find yourself in a rather small minority here.
I, for one, very much enjoy and appreciate DXM’s snark, and often find it also very insightful. I know there are others here who share my view. YMMV (and apparently does), but I wouldn’t hold your breath in anticipation of the chorus of endorsements of your view that are about to inundate you. Jus’ sayin’.
This makes no sense to me. His comments are no different than would would come from the intellect of a Redstate or Russian troll. It’s an insincere narrative that is frankly offensive to anyone to the left of Orrin Hatch.
. . . “snark” can’t you grasp? Of course “It’s an insincere narrative”!!! It’s snark! (Or satire if you prefer.)
But you’re definitively wrong about one thing (which is weird since I already informed you otherwise): I am extremely to the left of Orrin Hatch, and Davis’s snark (since I recognize it as such) is not remotely offensive to me, exactly the contrary! It’s usually quite entertaining.
I’ll throw out a hypothesis: offense at DXM’s snark (or inability to see the humor therein) is proportional to suspicion one might at some time find oneself within its target zone (possible corollary: and also proportional to excess of self-regard/self-importance). Just a hypothesis, of course. Drawn from a limited history of observation, but untested.
It is only satire if it has some underpinning in reality. Maybe there are anarchists or some college campus jackasses that Davis’s comments could actually be seen as satirizing. But on this website, an intellectual left of center website, Davis’s nonsense is not clever snark, it’s just trolling.
. . . is “an intellectual left of center website”, I would agree. But if you think there have never been commenters here worthy of DXM’s barbs (including, I’m convinced, both some actual Russian bots/trolls and some hardcore, Hillary-hater and/or sore-loser, dead-ender BernieBro types* — at least a couple of whom are still around!), then that mainly reflects your relatively recent (I think?) arrival here. If you doubt this, then all you need do is pass some time perusing threads and diaries in the heat of the 2016 election campaign season.
*to be clear: I strongly supported and voted for Bernie in the primary, Hillary in the general — cuz, duh! — I’m not an idiot.
Come to think of it (only DXM could say if this is right, but) I’m gonna posit that what you did once the Dem nomination was decided is probably as good a discriminant function as any for whether you’re likely an intended target of Davis’s snark (e.g., you proceeded to oppose and undermine Hillary, voted for Stein or the glibertarian guy, or abstained in “protest” — and remain defiant/unrepentant/unregretful over those choices) or not. Just guessin’. May be projecting my own views a bit there.
Yes. You are projecting your own views. First, I’ve been reading this site for at least 5 years, but yes, only recently started commenting. Second, I, like you, supported Bernie in the primary. When he lost (he lost fairly, I don’t think there was any particular hijinks involved), I not only supported Hillary but drove in regularly to Brooklyn (paying NYC ($50) parking because her camaign did not pay for parking for volunteers (or apparently arrange for rides to the polls for blind people)). I was there all day election day listening to complaints from people who couldn’t get to the polls because her campaign apparatus paid way too much to Mook for 30 minute long commercials than actual logistics.
Clinton lost because she was a shitty candidate, with an awful campaign apparatus that was only interested in their payday, with horrible judgment (she voted for the Iraq war).
Though I tried my hardest to get her elected, her campaign was just awful.
. . . that. Since (as I also already said!), the possible projection of my views that I noted was onto DXM. Therefore, only DXM is in a position to say whether in fact that was projection, rather than a correct guess re: intended targets of his snark!
But by your telling above, if my guesses are correct (maybe big “if”!), then you are not an intended target of Davis’s snark! Unless, of course, you now regret or repent of your decision to support and work for Clinton in the general (and good on you for that!!!). (Again, Davis’d have to read your self-description above and “rule” on whether I have that right or not.)
To put my guesses together in a nutshell: my impression of DXM’s targeting is that it’s the sort of “leftier-than-thou”, purity-policing, Dem-undermining, Stein-voting types devoid of any understanding of the constraints of Reality (crucially including political realities) — who thereby enabled Trump and inflicted him on us — that draw his aim.
Again, and still, YMMV.
None of those types frequent this site.. He replies to cogent comments with conversation killing crap. If it’s meant to be humor rather than insuits or trolling, it’s just not funny. Or do you also think Dennis Miller is comic gold?
“None of those types” may infest this site now, but holy crap they were thick on the ground in 2016! And I still see some of them to this day, here and elsewhere.
. . . types” still “frequenting . . . [I’d have said ‘infecting’, but hey, maybe that’s just me — though pretty sure it isn’t!] . . . this site” has posted in this very thread!
Adding, I’m very much a Capitalist who believes unfettered Capitalism is a road to catastrophe. Perhaps our hero hasn’t heard of the Great Depression or was in a coma during 2008… and, yes, at that time, I advocated nationalizing the banks (at least temporarily) and I still think Obama f’d up by not doing that…. it’s going to happen again, soon, and we’ll be bailing them out again… And while all our tax money goes to socializing the losses and privatizing the gains, Davis will continue snarking his way all the way to the bank. You say that if I take offense to his comments I just might be a Communist… I counter that if you find him funny, you just might be a patriarch/oligarch/above-the-Law Wall Street choch.
Nor anything remotely close to that. Any more than I am NOT to the left of Orrin Hatch. (You really should stop doing that.) So your “counter” is an equally silly and off-base non-sequitur. As is your baseless accusation (I’ll guess also defamatory, but I don’t know that, any more than you know it’s valid) that DXM “will continue snarking his way all the way to the bank.”
In fact, before you got to the stuff contested above, I was in broad agreement with what came before. Again, I can’t speak for him, but I suspect DXM would be, too!
I see you don’t like strawmen, huh? Maybe you should reject Davis’s nonsense then, no? See what I did there, it wasn’t troll-snark (what Davis does), it was basically the Socratic method.
. . . obvious by now), I don’t consider it “strawmen” or “nonsense”, I consider it snark, usually well done, i.e., effective satire. (You declaring it “strawmen” and “nonsense” does not suffice to make it so!)
Duh.
Any senient person understands how you continue to embarrass yorself by defending strawmen you like while dismissing strawmen you don’t.
. . . (even if rather tautological) that the satirically challenged don’t like or appreciate satire and don’t find it funny. Ridiculously declaring it “strawmen” does not cure this defect, alas (or, actually — fortunately).
I agree with much of what you post, but find your defense of Davis very strange… Why are you so adamant in defending his indefensible ramblings? I don’t get it… is he family member or something and you don’t want to offend him?
. . . don’t like, or perhaps just don’t get, to be “indefensible ramblings” also does not suffice to make it so.
I agree with much of what you post, but find your taking offense over Davis’s comments very strange… Why are you so adamant in attacking his clever satire? I don’t get it… is it your feelings of inadequacy over not getting the joke and so you want to condemn him?
“See what I did there”?
It’s not clever satire.it is Republican trolling.
does not suffice to make that so, either!
Lemme guess: you didn’t enjoy my cleverly satirical rewrite of your preceding comment, either! Oh, well.
The trick is that people do enjoy his humor — so much that they don’t notice the insidious misdirection (similar to red-baiting).
If you lack the good sense to do so, then please allow me to be embarrassed on your behalf over having written that.
. . . proposing consumption of Irish babies as an anti-poverty program (similar to Dahmer-baiting).
But that’s not what he’s doing.
. . . the English upper class to the further detriment of the Irish poor isn’t a currently salient topic for satire (at least in this country).
Coalition-busting, leftier-than-thou purity policing by some of “The [self-proclaimed, wrongly] ‘progressive’ Left” most certainly is, though. Contra wrong declarations in this subthread, it’s still going on, including right here in this subthread.
Yes. You are correct. Constantly referring to progressives/liberals as Communists as Davis does is inherently unity-busting.
Constantly misrepresenting what I wrote and what (imo) Davis does is inherently dishonest.
(“See what I did there?”)
Particularly so when I’ve already pointed out you doing that previously. Even more particularly so when the pretty-clearly-deliberate misrepresentation is insincerely prefaced with “Yes. You are correct”.
The trick is that people do enjoy his humor — so much that they don’t notice the insidious misdirection (similar to red-baiting).
it’s what he does. some people here think it’s funny, I don’t understand why.
See my comment above.
With Calif moving up their primaries for 2020 there may be a more progressive set of choices, not to mention that it will cause a rough road financially for contenders. Calif isn’t cheap to campaign in.
. . . is a problem that deserves a lot more focus (yeah, I get that you can’t address everything in every post):
This is very true, but contains a problem that seems intractable. It implies that they have some/any control over this aspect of media malpractice, which the evidence of recentish history does not confirm. See, e.g., the narratives concocted (including by whatever distortion, selectivity, misrepresentation of facts, disproportionate emphasis, and plain ol’ just making shit up was required) and then flogged about Reagan, Bush, and Trump vis à vis Gore, Kerry, and Clinton. Note the consistent anti-Dem lean of those caricatures. (There’s no need to rehash those caricatures in detail, right? Or name the perps who committed them? We all recall them, no? At least one of us didn’t “get over it”, either, despite all the counsel to do so.)
And make no mistake, this problem goes back much further, at least to Broder turning what he later conceded might have just been snowflakes melting on Muskie’s cheeks into tears, and hence into a narrative of weakness and instability, because (as Broder also admitted, though not with any betrayal of shame or regret — seemed to think it all just fine, in fact!) he and his cohort had formed an impression that Muskie was ill-suited for the presidency, and this was the public event they could hang that narrative on in appointing themselves judge, jury, and executioner of his campaign.
The fact is (and has been for decades) that Dems enter the presidential campaign fray with two (or three if you wanna count primary season opposition) main opponents/obstacles: the Worse-than-Useless Corporate Media (WTUCM) and the Banana Republicans.
I’d love to see a credible proposal for how Warren and Brown, or indeed any Dem, could overcome that bias. What “serious work” by them could accomplish that? (The magic formula, if such exists, would seem to be personal “charisma” — as perceived, of course, by the WTUCM — coupled with DLC/Third Way-style capitalist/corporatist/[dare I say it? “neoliberal”] centrism [Bloomberg comes to mind]. But fuck that shit!)
Political pundits/”journalists” inserting themselves between the candidates and us to force their own impressions/judgments onto us rather than just reporting facts and letting us form our own judgments (“democracy”, perhaps you’ve heard of it?) is a major problem and the source of immense harm. (Just ask, for starters, a million +/- a few 100K prematurely dead Iraqis). Alas that I have no solution, except maybe that Dem politicians must do everything they do with this problem kept firmly in mind — always on a front burner, so to speak.
If there were any true cosmic justice, all that either Warren or Brown would need to do is hang a tire swing from a big tree in their yard and have the media over for a little barbeque and a few brewskies.
Sadly, that only works for Republican candidates.
Don’t forget the Dean “scream.” That was the most coordinated media effort I’ve seen in my lifetime to falsely discredit and sink a front-runner candiadate based on absolute nonsense. Interesting though how Dem primary voters fell for a conjured media narrative of “not electable” while Republican primary voters were motivated by the crazy “unpresidential” ramblings of Trump. Hell, he even mocked the “Maverick”, the media’s favorite politician, and got away with it.
. . . funeral “booing”, Muskie’s “tears” . . . and on and on and on.
Forgot the Wellstine funeral booing. I was interning for Sen Jeffords at the time and got all sorts of calls from constituents fired up by the media narrative on that one. Unbelievable nonsense.
Dean was a great candidate- plain-spoken, genuine, populist, and a relative centrist. If America had a chance to hear his message, they’d overwhelmingly agree with it.
So naturally that couldn’t happen. ‘Dean scream’ is the only thing most people know.
Anyone who challenges America’s corruption ends up smeared or shot. But we have to keep trying, because corrupt societies fail.
My spouse, who’s no liberal but is a true swing voter, (voted for GWB twice and then Obama twice) has always maintained that Howard Dean got screwed with that fake “scream” coverage. Yes, we Dems abandon our primary candidates for too early, which is definitely not so with our political extreme opposites.
Hillary had policy outlined in great detail throughout her entire campaign and it fell on deaf ears. Policy might matter to people who read blogs, but the average voter pays it no mind. They hear the elevator speech at most, the bumper sticker at least. The media is going to let DT suck all the oxygen out of the messaging sphere; no one will hear a thing the Dems have to say come the general.
We’ll see how badly the voters want anyone-but-DT by November 2020, if he’s even still in office. It might not matter who wins the Dem nomination as long as they have a pulse.
It might not matter in the sense of a Democrat being able to win the presidency, but it sure matters for whether anything really changes in this country. There are Democrats and there are Democrats.
Whoever it is we nominate, it will be the person the most Democrats wanted, so I’m good with that.
Hey, whatever.
This is why 2019 is such a critical year for both Democrats and Republicans. For Democrats, this year will start the process of “market testing” which potential candidate/nominee has the legs to be a serious candidate in the primaries. Also, will Trump survive the year? He is rapidly degenerating into an even more infantile, deranged wannabe strongman who has nothing to offer the GOP at this moment. This allows the Democrats to be perceived as the only adults in the room.
For the GOP, 2019 is critical because this is the year they either invoke impeach and convict (or more likely in my opinion the 25th Amendment) to get rid of the albatross Trump has become for them and either go with Robot Pence (assuming he is not also compromised) or some sort of credible (for them) new candidate.
. . . this, too:
This observer thinks she “won” that “bout” decisively, proved her claims were accurate, put Trump in his place and exposed him (again!) as a disgusting racist who also refuses to pay up when he loses a bet. I was delighted by it!
Putting aside that attributing the quoted assessment to unspecified “most observers” seems a bit of a copout: it’s diversionary bullshit regardless.
I’ll outsource most of the rebuttal to hecatedemeter (while also registering pretty strong disagreement on a couple points), except for echoing her endorsement that this proves Warren a fighter who will call Trump on his bullshit and mock him deservedly when he refuses to pay up on the bet he proposed — exactly what any Dem candidate must demonstrate; and borrowing her quote of what Warren actually said about that DNA test:
I’m oaguabonita, and I approve this message.
Not only do I agree with what you say in this comment, I also agree strongly with you about your two disagreements with Hecatedemeter.
Every time Trump calls her Pocahontas, she needs to taunt him as a failed casino owner who welches on his own bets.
“… if he is perceived as the champion of that group of voters to the exclusion of the larger ethnically diverse coalition, it will doom him in the primaries.”
Circular firing squad again? Common sense would tell any Democrat that the ability to attract these voters while also being a real Democrat is almost a prerequisite to winning a national election.
As for Warren, it is true that what you call the “Pocahontas” factor has not been good for her, but it would be ridiculous if the GOP tries to use that to pin her as as “identity politician,” as she is decidedly NOT an “identity politics” candidate.
I think both Warren and Brown are examples of the kind of candidate we need for 2020. I’m not saying they are the only possibilities.
All women candidates get stereotyped quickly and easily in our sexist world.
Warren doesn’t really have Clinton’s presence and I don’t see a lot of reasons to compare the two (besides the obvious one). Her liabilities are also completely different. Many of Clinton’s liabilities were political; her vote on the AUMF in Iraq, her performance in the 2008 primaries, and a declining opinion of Bill’s presidency in the rear view. Those weaknesses gave Bernie an opening much as it did for Obama eight years before.
Warren gives me a strong Paul Tsongas vibe if anything.
Remember what happened to Tsongas.
You’re worried she’ll die from non-Hodgkin lymphoma and pneumonia?
I meant his campaign, obviously.
“But if he is perceived as the champion of that group of voters to the exclusion of the larger ethnically diverse coalition, it will doom him in the primaries.”
And that is a real risk because it is “we” who perceive the white working class to the exclusion of the larger ethnically diverse coalition. We see them as if they are some distinct group with unique characteristics, distinct from all others, who we can’t win without. Its absolutely maddening and totally ridiculous. Every issue they have, apart from their racist anxieties, everyone who works for a living has, and that includes everyone in the 99%. They need higher paying, stable jobs. They need access to health care, they’re rent is too damned high. Just like the damned white working class! What, are they the only ones going to work every day to put roofs over their heads and feed their families? Oh, I get it, as African Americans we’re supposed to be satisfied with the democratic red meat of these clowns coming to black churches trying to imitate black dialect and idioms and fooling no one head fakes on “race issues” like police brutality. Meanwhile, black and brown folk have the same issues as the white working class with respect to working, but even more intractable. Just take a look at labor statistics and the trends and its easy to see we have settled on racial discrimination in labor as a structural feature.
Democrats have made the capture of the white working class their own, and largely unattainable as constituted, holy grail. And given the racist inclinations of that group, which we codify with the “white” portion of the label, why wouldn’t others in the coalition, particularly African Americans, Latinos and other non-whites, feel put off by the obsession over them? Why wouldn’t anyone in this country who works for a living, especially those members of vulnerable minority groups, have the same issues and needs of the white working class, when they themselves are working class??
The winning democratic candidate will be one who can address working class issues across the board and not just speaking to white people in diners. We already have that, that’s Trump. Besides, he already figured out to woo them it ain’t just about the money, its about race. And democrats certainly can’t go down that road without losing support from their own base.
I’m with you here, csm. One of the things which has been obvious for a long time is that many voters not only want elected officials to help them and their families get their job, housing and health care needs met, they also want government to deliberately deprive others of those things. It’s a hateful motivation by those voters, but it is a real motivation for them.
“…want elected officials to help them and their families get their job, housing and health care needs met, they also want government to deliberately deprive others of those things.”
And for those voters, it will be half a loaf, the former half, and nothing more. Anything beyond that will be pandering to their hatreds and rightfully unacceptable to the base. Those voters, once shown how they can be helped, substantively, let them make a choice, e.g. what’s more important, health care or hate.
I had this come up over the Christmas holidays at an in-laws house; the bitter trope that has to do with seeing the (presumably) black person in line at the store, paying with food stamps, and having the effrontery to do so in new sneakers or fresh-looking hairdo or … whatever. The raconteur then offers some version of “I work so hard, and these people get it for free.” I’ve heard a version of this trope in many situations. And this perceived injustice will indeed cause a bloc of whites to go for whatever candidate is going to stick it to `them’ (the putatively lazy and undeserving). I think this exact trope has to be publicly addressed head-on by whoever our candidate turns out to be, because it is a) so pervasive among the white working class and b) blinds people to the grander and much more colossal theft of our public resources by the 1%. (It’s the very definition of punching down, not punching up.) I think it’s wired into the human psyche, as a mixture of jealousy, self-puffery and righteous anger, and I certainly do some version of the same in my own life (hopefully not racially based, but some version of the `I work so hard vs. THOSE lazy bums’ metaphor).
What did I do in the moment, at my in-laws? Kept mum, and thought real hard. A couple days later I came up with a rejoinder that is too long and too complex to go into (either then or now). But that sick trope has got to be dealt with directly in the political arena, I believe, and not in a long and complex way.
And the “genius” of Trump is that he won their vote by appealing to their racism but also promising them solutions for all of the issues you mentioned in your comment and then proceeded to not only not fulfill them but, in fact, to make their lives notably worse off.
So I agree with you. Focus on the core issues of all of the working class and much of the middle class as well offering them concrete, cost effective solutions that only Democrats will implement.