Our first president was from Virginia, and our second president was from Massachusetts. In fact, our first six presidents were from one of those two states. It’s an oversimplification, but the competition between Virginia and Massachusetts in the early part of our Republic was not unlike the competition we have today between Democrats and Republicans.
Now, I’d never want to compare Donald Trump to George Washington, but perhaps it would be less startling to imagine a situation in which John Adams had been elected in 1796 despite losing the popular vote, and that he had been openly friendly to King George III, asked him to intervene in the election, steal, read and disseminate Thomas Jefferson’s private mail correspondence, and then began appointing British loyalists as his top advisers and nominating them to positions like Secretary of State.
As it was, Adams was only elected because one elector each in Virginia, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania defected to his cause. But if it had been widely known prior to the Electoral College meeting in their respective states that Adams had been surreptitiously aided by the British Crown, the Electors would have had to contemplate what Alexander Hamilton wrote about their job description in the Federalist No. 68. To begin with, Alexander explained why they had created the Electoral College:
Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union? But the convention have guarded against all danger of this sort, with the most provident and judicious attention. They have not made the appointment of the President to depend on any preexisting bodies of men, who might be tampered with beforehand to prostitute their votes; but they have referred it in the first instance to an immediate act of the people of America, to be exerted in the choice of persons for the temporary and sole purpose of making the appointment.
The number one concern was to avoid allowing a foreign power “to rais[e] a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union.” We would have the people vote for electors who would be watchful for foreign interference. Those electors would be chosen for this purpose and this purpose alone. It would be hard to know who they would be beforehand, which would make it hard for a foreign power to bribe them.
And there were more precautions. For example, they would never convene as one body.
And as the electors, chosen in each State, are to assemble and vote in the State in which they are chosen, this detached and divided situation will expose them much less to heats and ferments, which might be communicated from them to the people, than if they were all to be convened at one time, in one place…
…The business of corruption, when it is to embrace so considerable a number of men, requires time as well as means. Nor would it be found easy suddenly to embark them, dispersed as they would be over thirteen States, in any combinations founded upon motives, which though they could not properly be denominated corrupt, might yet be of a nature to mislead them from their duty.
You might object that the Electors are supposed to vote the way that the people have voted, but that didn’t happen uniformly in 1796 or in many elections since. In recent years, one presidential Elector voted for John Edwards in 2004 and in 2000 an Elector for the District of Columbia simply refused to vote in protest. In any case, Hamilton was clear that the Electors’ job was to exercise their own judgment. In fact, he said that “It was desirable that the sense of the people should operate in the choice of the person,” but the “sense” in which this would happen was through “committing the right of making [the selection of president], not to any preestablished body, but to men chosen by the people for the special purpose, and at the particular conjuncture.”
To be clear, the people were to “commit the right” of making the ultimate decision to the Electors.
And this was to be done not only to prevent, as much as possible, a foreign power from interfering in the selection of our leader, but to assure that the position not fall to a person with “talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity.”
The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States. It will not be too strong to say, that there will be a constant probability of seeing the station filled by characters pre-eminent for ability and virtue. And this will be thought no inconsiderable recommendation of the Constitution, by those who are able to estimate the share which the executive in every government must necessarily have in its good or ill administration. Though we cannot acquiesce in the political heresy of the poet who says: “For forms of government let fools contest That which is best administered is best,” yet we may safely pronounce, that the true test of a good government is its aptitude and tendency to produce a good administration.
It was foreseen that the Electoral College might not be able to form a majority around a single candidate, so the House of Representatives was chosen as the ultimate arbiter. In a piece I mostly disagree with, Garrett Epps made a compelling case that the Framers of the Constitution did not foresee the Electoral College forming a majority very often, and that it was their expectation that the House would normally resolve our elections. They didn’t anticipate mass communication, and few people were as nationally famous and respected then as George Washington.
That is, they believed that, with the exception of George Washington, no political figure would ever become well enough known (after all, the population of the U.S. in 1787 was nearly four million people!) to command a popular majority. “Nineteen times out of twenty,” delegate George Mason predicted, the state electors would not produce a winner. When that happened, the delegates decided, choice of a president would be thrown into the House of Representatives.
Had they known about Celebrity Appentice, they might have reconsidered that judgment.
In any case, it is entirely appropriate for the Electors to demand a full intelligence briefing on Russia’s role in promoting Trump’s campaign and Trump’s connections to Russia, including his susceptibility to blackmail. Their primary (really, only) job is to determine if the president-elect is loyal to the country and the Constitution or if they are controlled by a foreign power. Aside from that, they need to assure that the president has an “aptitude and tendency to produce a good administration.”
As for Hamilton and his supporters, they opposed the election of Thomas Jefferson in 1796, but only reluctantly supported John Adams: “Hamilton and his supporters did however believe that Adams lacked the seriousness and popularity that had caused Washington to be successful, and feared that Adams was too vain, opinionated, unpredictable and stubborn to follow their directions.”
Trump clearly lacks popularity and seriousness, and is vain, opinionated, unpredictable, and stubborn. Yet, his supporters don’t want him to follow the directions of Washington establishment figures like Alexander Hamilton.
For the Electors, they deserve an intelligence briefing so they can fulfill their constitutional duty to the nation and honor the vision and trust of the Founders.
Those intelligence briefings are coming from the CIA.
The
!. Are you old enough to remember the Church Committee?
Eight years of Trump, and Pence after Trump strokes out, is just the penance we must do because of all the governments we overthrew in the last four decades.
Penance isn’t supposed to be pleasant.
I rest assured, however, that a purer, better, more progressive America will arise from the ashes.
Yeah, the CIA. Let’s ask JFK what he thinks about the CIA.
Oh wait.
Let’s ask Salvadore Allende what he thinks about the CIA.
Oh wait.
Karma’s a bitch. I regret that I have to endure Trump and whatever mess and hell ensues from that, but then again, I have benefited from living here often at the expense of others. Che sera sera.
I do hope the Iranians are duly appreciative.
Is eight years of Trump, and Pence, after Trump strokes out, equal to one Mossadegh?
Don’t forget this:
your snark isn’t very well calibrated this morning.
It calibrates just fine on this dial.
AG
reaction, i.e., that this seemed to me one of dxm’s more successful efforts.
Guess that’s why we say à chacun son goût.
Curious, are the Russians just a stalking horse to avoid naming the real ones that terrorize you–the ascendant Republican establishment? Cause Cruz might well be making about the same nominations as Trump, no?
Even if you managed to install HC as the dubious President, how does one forestall a righteous backlash from the disenfranchised? They will get off their deathbeds to vote you out.
How will Dems select “their voters” in the future? IQ tests?
Both delusional (in thinking this has any chance of happening) and anti-Democratic – are we really suggesting overriding the will of the people on this?
Unless you prove Trump had knowledge before the hacking began there is no case to stand on. This was brought up before people voted – and they voted the way they did.
What’s next: arguing against direct election of the Senate?
I don’t take any of this seriously.
I’ve argued against direct election of the Senate (or its abolition) for years. Where have you been?
Busy reading Clinton emails.
.
I am well aware of that – you thought I referenced that accidentally?
A fear of democracy is not a good look for liberals.
The senate is an anti-democratic institution.
I’ll go with abolishing it. Maybe then we can elect a president with the popular vote.
“…and anti-Democratic- are we really suggesting overriding the will of the people on this?”
Are you seriously suggesting the will of the people is the candidate that got 3 million less votes? The contortions you have to make to have Trump the President Elect by limited Constitutional means would be amusing, if the repercussions were not so deadly. In your estimation, certain Electoral College machinations must be treated as hallowed sacraments, those that don’t fit your narrow constraints must be treated as sacrilegious flotsam or shibboleths depending on how threatened you are by the suggestions.
What does the term Democratic mean in your world? Since you seem to have a definition that is at odds with a real world understanding, perhaps you should change your name to something more accurate like fladixiecrat, since you are obsessed with only counting certain votes in the GE and the Primary
My definition is found in the allocation of electoral votes required by the Constitution.
Those were the rules everyone played by before this election.
Hillary Clinton wasn’t trying to win the popular vote.
She was trying to win 270 Electoral Votes.
Or did you see some campaigning in California, New York and Texas that no one else did?
And fuck you for the dixiecrat line. I went door to door and worked legal protection for Clinton.
What the fuck did you do?
Yes, but there is nothing in the constitution that says the electors can’t vote for whomever they please. Voting for Clinton, and tossing it to the house for them to decide would be perfectly legal, and democratic. Messy, sure. But legal.
Why? How many states in 1796 held an election where voters selected from among the declared presidential candidates? You’re talking about candidates that with the exception of Burr didn’t even engage in direct campaigning with electors or the legislatures that selected electors. Voters in four states chose electors by district. Voters in three states chose electors statewide. TN did something more like IA primary caucuses today. Voters in twelve other states let their legislatures choose the electors.
Not much similarity between the rules then and now, and regardless of how much one faction or another doesn’t like the existing rules as of an election, the rules are known and candidates mold their campaigns around them. Some do that better than others and some (ie GWB) have help in rigging the outcome in a specific state. It’s the popular vote within each state (and CDs in ME and NB) that are decisive. 2016 isn’t like 2000. Gore’s national vote win was irrelevant; it’s that the votes in FL weren’t verifiably counted and had they been, he would have won.
“It’s the popular vote within each state (and CDs in ME and NB) that are decisive.”
So, a 3 million vote difference doesn’t matter? At what point does it become a problem? 13 million? 30 million? I mean rules are rules right, so we must follow through on them even if it ends up being a glorified suicide pact, right?
I think that is why I am so enraged with the comments of too may supposedly liberal, progressive, and leftist posters. If this were an election in Tunisia or the primaries they could contort themselves into a pretzel in order to make a square peg fit into a round hole. They would not be so quick to disenfranchise brown people in Tehran in Iranian elections this fraught with red flags, but have no problem this time.
I can’t remember who recently restated the basic idea that people are not designed to serve the needs of the economy or the government. Those institutions were created to serve us, as were the Constitution and the EC. That so many are willing to jettison others and defend an illegitimate and anti-democratic outcome, because it fulfills their own morality play is disgusting.
I really don’t get it. There is no getting out of this situation, no matter how many words and arguments. A dead end with no going back. You give me the solution. There is none as far as I can see. The Electoral College is a hopeless, desperate last stand. A week from today we can all pour out into the streets and confront the other half of our country men and women.
I don’t have a better answer, but to not even attempt to persuade the EC or act like it is some sort of dirty pool to use it to negate or at least modify the disproportionate effect of the national vote total not being representative is disheartening. I think the Senate needs to be amended and the EC is just another problem stemming from its undemocratic basis. I am under no delusions it will happen soon or even in my lifetime.
Then there are all the mitigating factors of Comey’s behavior, Trump’s behavior with his lack of disclosure about his financial situation perhaps being the most troubling now, and the Russian disinformation campaign. I am no fan of Hamilton, but the EC was designed as a safety valve. If we are not going to use under a situation like this, then we should make the EC votes automatic when states certify a vote. It is just another governmental boondoggle at that point.
I realize altering the results of this election result in the EC is basically a Hail Mary play with 10 seconds on the clock, and you have to convert a 2 point conversion, recover an onside kick and repeat the process just to get the game into overtime. Not even sure if it is even theoretically possible given the constraints.
There was no real reaction, in terms of helping people vote, making it more representative, and making it more secure, to the injustice in 2000 and we seem to be resigned to accepting another unsatisfying result.
Well, we seem to be kind of stuck don’t we? OTOH, that 30 million surplus voters could move to the red states and change the equation enough to force through a direct vote for president amendment.
Railing about the rules after the fact (absent outright theft) is what sore losers engage in. The veneration of the “Founding Fathers” by both Republicans and Democrats seem to ignore that they didn’t like direct democracy. The chose a system that mediates between the rabble and elites except for the House. In which last time a checked the rightwing rabble was winning handily.
Is it fair that one candidate spent a billion dollars and the other only half a billion? 2016 was an anomaly in recent presidential elections when the candidate with more bucks was the winner. Same is true in almost all Senate, House, and state elections. Don’t hear you crabbing about that disparity (at least not when it favors the Democrat).
Everybody would like totally fair elections, but nobody seems to know how to make that a reality. Everybody would like election campaigns to highlight the facts and not engage in character mudslinging. Bu the latter generally wins elections.
Don’t like our system of representative government and elections, work on changing it. But your assertion that liberals, etc. aren’t pushing for the electors to overturn the rules of the election are somehow uninterested in democracy is hogwash.
Unless we’re talking about destroying the Electoral College itself, we’re not talking about solving the problem, but a symptom.
Here’s how it works:
Win 50.01% of a state and you get it’s electoral college votes, all things being equal.
Win 50.01% enough states to amass 270 electoral college votes…you win.
Regardless of party, regardless of popular vote, etc.
That’s the rules we’re currently playing by. While I’d be A-OK with changing the rules, doing so now would just get lots of people killed.
Seriously.
And Trump would still be President after the House voted.
Despite all the highflying prose of our oh so dear, dear, sacred Alexander Hamilton, the Electoral College will fulfil its charge and choose Donald Trump. Don’t Democrats have better things to do nowadays than to play pretend?
I think the goal is more to make the illegitimacy of Trump’s presidency as obvious as possible. He lost the election, by almost 3 million votes, and will only get the presidency as a result of the combination of voter suppression, foreign intervention and a seriously messed up electoral process.
So Donald Trump will be shown to be illegitimate and then what will happen? He’ll still become president. He’ll be an illegitimate president…whatever that might be. Think about it! Stop blathering on. This whole discussion is completely nuts. No one, including Booman, can cite more than what the CIA has had published in the media. What are we being fed: fake news or a disinformation. The former is evil, so say the opinion makers, the latter is state of the art, sophisticated, worth respecting. The media knows even less. Has the CIA set a domestic coup in motion? If so, good luck with that. Maybe President Obama will feel compelled to declare a State of Emergency and order an end to erecting viewing stands in D.C. for Trump’s inauguration. Wouldn’t REAL foreign intervention call for such a measure.? Or is it instead advisable to investigate the FBI and Comey for interfering in the election? Maybe it’s legal if a US agency does it? Or maybe he was even working for…..mass-paranoia seems to be taking hold. Cui bono?
Ultimately it comes down to this:
Either the government bureaucracy, as created under the Constitution, is able to mitigate the damage, with voters able to make a necessary course correction in 2018 and 2020…or this whole shitshow isn’t worth the effort.
Trying to thwart the Electoral College is a fool’s errand. The House still votes him in, and it gets the rabble really, really pissed off. And unlike many here, I’m a red state denzien. Living in enemy territory and having to step up if necessary is one thing. Living in enemy territory and having to step up because enough people act out on their fever dreams is another.
Donald Trump will be President on January 20th, 2017.
Observe the upcoming objective reality, and let’s work on getting him the fuck out of office in 2021.
Apparently not.
But then…neither do the intelligence people.
Maybe they’re right.
Or…
Maybe they have other…plans…in mind.
We shall see.
Before the coronation.
Bet on it.
AG
Sorry, Trump has filed a lawsuit to stop any electoral votes from changing form supporting him. The coward knows that he is on the out and is trying in desperation to cling on to power for Putin.