I don’t often disagree with Greg Sargent, but I don’t think he’s got the right take on Nancy Pelosi’s decision to announce that she’s not for impeaching the president. If I can briefly summarize Sargent’s position, he doesn’t think Pelosi is completely out of her tree, but he does think she went unnecessarily far in her remarks. For context, here is what Pelosi said:
“I’m not for impeachment. This is news. I’m going to give you some news right now because I haven’t said this to any press person before. But since you asked, and I’ve been thinking about this: Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t think we should go down that path, because it divides the country. And he’s just not worth it.”
For a little fuller context, she added this later in the interview:
You said earlier you don’t feel it’s worth it to pursue impeachment. Do you believe he’s fit to be president?
Are we talking ethically? Intellectually? Politically? What are we talking here?
All —
All of the above. No. No. I don’t think he is. I mean, ethically unfit. Intellectually unfit. Curiosity-wise unfit. No, I don’t think he’s fit to be president of the United States.
Sargent is clear that he doesn’t think Pelosi should support impeachment hearings right now but he argues that her “suggestion that impeachment hearings can proceed only with “bipartisan” support is also unnecessarily self-constraining.” But, for starters, she didn’t specifically mention anything about impeachment “hearings,” which are a preliminary step to an actual vote on impeachment in the House. There’s no logic that says an inquiry must lead to a vote. If we look at what she said very literally, she only precluded having a vote to impeach unless there is something new revealed that is “so compelling and overwhelming” that it creates some bipartisan consensus that the president must be removed.
As for inquiries, the House is already working on several of them which are likely to slice Trump up like a ripe watermelon. Pelosi has encouraged this, and there’s really no reason to stop what the Way & Means, Financial Services, and Oversight committees are doing prematurely and put all their work under the jurisdiction of the Judiciary Committee that would have responsibility for voting out articles of impeachment.
To really judge Pelosi’s comments, we have to look at what she was trying to accomplish, and I think she succeeded in every area save one.
She wants the Democrats to stay on message with their positive agenda for the American people. This becomes very clear in another part of the interview when she catches herself for spending too much time criticizing the president.
And that’s up to us to make the contrast to show that this president — while he may be appealing to you on your insecurity and therefore your xenophobia, whether it’s globalization or immigrants — is fighting clean air for your children to breathe, clean water for them to drink, food safety, every good thing that we should be doing that people can’t do for themselves. You know, I have five kids, and I think I can do everything for them, but I can’t control the air they breathe, the water that they drink. You depend on the public sector to do certain things for the health and well-being of your family, and he is counter to that.
But again, this is coming across too negatively. I don’t usually talk about him this much. This is the most I’ve probably talked about him. I hardly ever talk about him. You know, it’s not about him. It’s about what we can do for the people to lower health-care costs, bigger paychecks, cleaner government.
If the Democrats are talking about the president, they’re not talking about health care, jobs, and better government, and Pelosi’s main concern is not to be off-message. It’s the same strategy the Democrats used in the midterm elections, and it was very successful. Now that those successful candidates are members of Congress, it’s fitting that their leader is helping them keep the focus on the things they ran on rather than the things that might obsess Democratic partisans.
I believe this motivation explains about 80 percent of why Pelosi “made news” in this interview on the impeachment issue.
But she also understands that impeaching the president is of limited value and will even be harmful in some ways if he isn’t convicted by the Senate, which is controlled by the Republicans. The more partisan she seems, the more partisan the reaction will be. The more reluctant she sounds to impeach the president, the more it will seem like the facts have overwhelmed her natural aversion to impeachment. For the same reason President Obama eventually concluded that if he wanted something to pass through Congress he should be as invisible on the issue as possible, Pelosi understands that if she acts like she wants something, that alone will make her less likely to get it.
In any case, while impeachment is a political process and not like any ordinary trial, some things remain the same. We don’t like it when a judge indicates a belief in guilt before any of the prosecution’s evidence has been presented. That makes us doubt the fairness of the proceedings. This is why Sargent would have approved if Pelosi had simply said it was too premature to talk about impeachment rather than going farther and suggesting that some bipartisan consensus would be required. Either way, though, she’s sending the message that she isn’t prejudging the case, and that’s important not just for Republican audiences. It’s important for anyone who hasn’t already made up their mind.
So, Pelosi accomplished several things with her remarks, all of them completely sensible and defensible. There’s even another benefit that Sargent mentions that could have been a consideration.
Politico’s savvy reporters speculate that Pelosi did this to create a holding pattern for Democrats, temporarily insulating them from unceasing questioning on this topic from activists by allowing them to blame Pelosi’s opposition.
I actually consider that factor as a subset of the staying-on-message strategy, but if she’s willing to take some heat to spare others, that’s part of her job as party leader.
There’s only one real downside to her remarks, and that is that she sent a morally weak message. By saying that impeachment should be reserved for things that produce bipartisan outrage, she gave some control to the Republicans and their moral compass. That’s why Rep. Jamie Raskin of Maryland criticized her remarks, saying it’s not about whether Trump is “worth it,” but about “whether the republic is worth it.” It’s why Rep. David Cicilline of Rhode Island recoiled, arguing in response that, “If the facts require us to initiate removing the president, we are obligated to do it.”
It’s close to impossible to take a political action that has 100 percent upside and no downside, and in this case there was no way for Pelosi to hit every mark. But she did very well for herself and for the party and country. She made it so people understand that she’s not going to impeach Trump come hell or high water, and if the facts that come in from Mueller are underwhelming or her own inquiries fail to produce significant bipartisan outrage that she’s not going to bull ahead on a process that will lead nowhere. But she also made is so damning facts that do come out will be more impactful. If she reverses herself on impeachment later, it will be seen as a meaningful indicator of the seriousness of the charges. She avoided getting the Republicans in a defensive crouch and didn’t undermine the credibility of future proceedings by appearing to prejudge their outcome. She took the heat on herself in the service of keeping the other members on message.
She’s a skilled operator and it’s pleasure to watch her navigate our nation’s choppy political waters. And I say this as someone who has been making a moral and factual case for impeachment since the month Trump took office.
It’s hard to argue with her remarks as a matter of theory, as she is just stating what every citizen likely thinks about the prez impeachment process in the abstract. The difficulty is that, in practice, there cannot ever be ANY significant Repub support for impeaching our current political criminal, no matter what the objective evidence, since the Repub party has utterly abdicated its status as a constitutional party. And of course you are correct that these were highly calculated remarks, as Pelosi took pains to inform the (worthless) corporate media that they were about to hear “news”, haha.
It’s quite clear already that Der Trumper and his National Trumpalist WH courtiers are not going to cooperate on any Dem oversight requests at all, and will compel the House to continually go to the federal courts to coerce documents for committee perusal. If something of great enough importance is ordered to be produced, then of course Der Trumper will take the matter to his democratically illegitimate 5 man “conservative” high court majority run by CJ Roberts.
Obviously, time is not on the Dems side here, as with every passing month the “remedy” of the 2020 election comes closer, without the public having an actual public presentation of the evidence of Trumper’s voluminous criminality. On the other hand, 66% of poll respondents already grant or concede that Trumper is a criminal or some sort or other, yet seem not to care over-greatly, with about the same percentage disfavoring impeachment. One can argue that Andrew Johnson was impeached in a prez election year (1868), but that was another age entirely.
Attempting to gauge the thought processes of an electorate like this is like having to be a soothsayer or augurer. Pelosi has an unenviable job….
It’s also quite clear that there are plenty of disaffected grifters in the WH willing to rat out Putin’s asset at the drop of a hat. Almost before the WH refused to turn over documents regarding Jarvaka’s security clearances, they’d been leaked to Schiff’s committee.
There will only be significant GOTP support for impeachment when the unprincipled rats have found a way to save themselves from the sinking Chinese-Russian-Saudi-Turk asset in the WH. And none of the GOTP senators is above staging a show trial aimed at saving themselves.
tRump’s assaults on national security are the wedges that may drive significant support for impeachment in the Senate – whether we learn all the details of the counter-intelligence investigations or not.
Morally weak is generous. I would say morally compromised. The effect of the moral failure, especially in this climate, is not to be underestimated. Even the pretense, even for rhetorical purposes, that Repugnicans have any sense of moral responsibility worthy of respect by now can only do more damage.
I understand very well the political realities, and the complex triangulations that Pelosi was trying to accomplish. (I also assume that she was trying to troll Damp Old Runt [“not worth it”].) She could simply have said she believes that impeachment requires “something so compelling and overwhelming.” The last two words in her actual sentence, and bipartisan, corrupt the whole message.
In practical fact, of course, impeachment requires no bipartisanship whatsoever; it’s conviction in the senate that does. So it’s obvious that those two words are there precisely to corrupt the message. That’s what pisses me off so much.
This being said, I was glad to see her call the Repugnicans enablers and to suggest that their allegiance is to their party, not their country. (If it was important to her to work the fetish word bipartisan in somewhere, she could have done it there.)
I have always felt that Mr Trump was a Republican problem to solve (or not). He doesn’t become a bipartisan problem until they recognize he’s a problem.
Exactly. Pelosi’s argument may serve her in this specific case, because it allows her to sidestep impeachment and focus on what she considers acheivable goals.
But impeachment should be used when a president cannot perform his job, refuses perform his job, or is using his powers for corrupt purposes.
Pelosi’s words pretty much explicitly define impeachment in purely political terms. A corrupt president can continue in office so long as he’s smart enough to give at least 34 Senators a piece of the action, and no one in power will make any effort to stop him.
The system was set up that way.
Why that is so … well we can argue Federalist papers but I think it’s more likely the revolutionary generation had rather limited experience with peaceful changes of government and/or dealing with gross incompetence. We have more experience but no metrics, either.
How do we set up for a vote of no confidence and an election re-run, for instance? Or maybe, we start limiting powers of incompetent executives by some standard until they’re neutralized, then dismiss them.
Not really. The system was designed with an explicit mechanism for removing the president. They didn’t want an unaccountable executive who was a law unto himself. It also wasn’t designed with political parties in mind, nevermind the bi-partisan system we have today.
And there is no language exempting the president from prosecution. That’s entirely a creation of the Nixon era justice department.
Thank you, BooMan for your reasoning. There was no way for her to make everyone happy, so protecting the party and the nation at the risk of riling partisans is a good choice. She has proven once again what true leadership looks like: take one for the team.
I’ve been opposed to impeachment for some time now. There’s no real upside to it. Nixon wasn’t impeached…he resigned. The impeachment of Clinton was a dog-and-pony show that ended up helping him. I agree with Pelosi: DT is not worth dividing the nation. Americans don’t like having their political choices taken from them. The populace has show itself remarkably patient with Presidents. While partisans time pieces are set to now, American’s are good with two years from now because they want to make the choice.
If there is a steady stream of indictments and convictions from now until people start paying attention, DT will be so utterly weakened, he won’t be able to persuade voters. Also we have no way of knowing what condition the economy will be even at the end of this year. People are pretty upset about their taxes right now. Jobs report was bad. People are defaulting on their car payments. The Dems staying on message will be far more important when people are actually listening for something positive about how to turn all this around. The Republicans are going to look pretty beat up and won’t be able to occupy the moral high ground if half their operatives are in prison or on trial.
Even if the House found a boatload of High Crimes and Misdemeanors, the Senate isn’t going to risk a conviction. If it ever gets to the point where the American people are so appalled by what they learn, they force DT to resign before they’d place themselves on the wrong side of their base. Not convicting is the worst possible outcome. Pelosi is avoiding that outcome. By the time the Dems have done some thorough investigating, it will be election season. All they have to do is present their evidence and wait for the voters to do the work for them.
There was no way for her to make everyone happy, so protecting the party and the nation at the risk of riling partisans is a good choice. She has proven once again what true leadership looks like: take one for the team.
Except she’s not standing up for the rule of law. Quite the opposite. And we don’t know when Mueller will be finished. Could be May, or it could be next year. Then what?
I thought Impeachment was a political process, not a matter of law.
The fundamental problem that we are debating is whether a president is above the law. Personally I agree, impeachment is not the solution to that problem. I believe a president who is caught committing crimes should be indicted.
But the Justice Department has declared repeatedly that it won’t indict a sitting president, and that nevertheless, the statute of limitations may apply to his crimes. Meaning a president could avoid prosecution for proven crimes, simply by serving long enough. They’ve decided that the solution to a criminal president is impeachment by Congress.
Republicans in Congress will clearly not vote to remove this president, no matter how much evidence is placed against him. Now, Pelosi has declared that Democrats won’t impeach the president without Republican support.
So Congressional action is also off the table.
What we need from her and the rest of the political establishment is a clear answer to this question.
Was Nixon right? Is the president above the law, and if not, what’s to stop him?
It should be noted that Nick Ackerman believes you can indict a sitting president, and has told Chris Hayes that if Congress wasn’t going to act that they had planned to indict Nixon. The only reason they didn’t is because the wheels were in motion to remove him. It’s possible.
You know how many investigations are being conducted now? And they’re just revving up. For the remainder of his term Individual-1 is going to be sliced and diced six ways to Sunday.
It seems fairly evident that the GOP is going to fly their plane all the way into the side of the mountain, if that’s what it takes, and live with whatever consequences which might come about as a result. As long as the Republican’s political landscape continues to exist in anything resembling its current form, they are not going to change anything. They simply can’t. Sure, you have a stray elected official, here and there, occasionally bleating their discontent at the state of affairs within their Party, but it is not simply happenstance that nary a single national political figure on their side has come forward to defy the Party or its leader.
So what we are left with is the landscape which Pelosi is attempting to navigate as deftly as possible, with her recognizing the ever increasing likelihood that the only real resolution and salvation for our Republic will occur at the 2020 ballot box. Even the most blockbuster revelation imaginable from Mueller might only move the GOP needle a tic or two, which all of us know will not be enough for this to be resolved within the halls of Congress.
Trump’s base, on which everyone in the Party depends, is not going to be convinced by evidence or the politics of the circumstances. They don’t care. Therefore, the Main Street Republican elected official cannot afford to care about something so trivial as the foundations of constitutional law, or the precedents of the last 230 years. These factor nowhere into their equation.
So here we are. Waiting for a Mueller report which might never see the light of day for years to come, in the hopes that there is a MOAB in it somewhere which will have the desired effect. This might well be like hoping for that one big lottery ticket win to pay off your debtors who are pounding at your door. In the meantime, Pelosi is trying to look far enough down the field to prepare for the probability that there will be no winning lottery ticket that pops up to save the day. This is the only logical course to follow right now. We have to chart the most probable courses of action which could lead to Donald Trump no longer being President, while also dealing with the inherent politics surrounding every single word that is spoken, not to mention a corporate media structure which is simply unable, and in many cases unwilling, to report what is actually happening to our democracy.
To say these we are in “choppy political waters” is certainly an understatement. We are in the equivalent of The Perfect Storm, with no guarantee that we have the tools necessary to survive it. I would like to say that I am confident that the voters will save us, but after 2016 I think that would be a real sucker’s bet.
The Millennials and GenZ’s are in revolt, including in the critical Midwest states not just in the predictable coastal states. But the 2020 candidate for president needs to be someone that is not a corporate Democrat and frankly, not an oldster. So someone other than Bernie and Biden. Beyond that, I am curious (but really looking at Kamala).
I respectfully but utterly disagree with you, Martin. The headline in the New York Post today is “Pelosi Blinks!” Republican politics is all about dominance, you know that well. And now you have the Dem Speaker of the House, just as she did with Bush, preemptively and unilaterally forfeiting.
She is exuding weakness. Does she think that her weakness will prevent the cultists from turning out at the polls? That’s inane!
Democrats exuding weakness does not in any way attract voters. Moreover, she is eschewing her Constitutional duty to impeach a criminal. Since the DOJ won’t indict a President (on Consttitutionallly dubious grounds), impeachment is the only remedy.
By setting out a marker that even beginning impeachment hearings is off limits unless the highly gerrymandered and f’n insane Republicans overwhelmingly agree to it, she is demonstrating, as Dems have since the g’damn Iran Contra hearings, that they are weak and won’t take their own side in an argument.
Moreover, by claiming that what is already known and out in the public (Don Jr meeting with Russian operatives in Trump Tower, Trump paying off a porn star to silence her, LOI with Putin on Moscow tower during the campaign, etc etc etc), she is normalizing this obviously criminal behavior. How is that not enough evidence for impeachment?
Nancy’s cowardice in refusing to utilize the only Constitutional remedy to at least attempt to remove a criminal from the Oval Office is a crime in and of itself. It’s a dereliction of her duty to defend the Constitution. Who wants to follow or vote for party with no goddamn principles?
This is nothing like the weakness that the Democratic party will exude after a failed impeachment in the Senate.
Like what happened to the Republicans after they impeached Clinton and took over the entire gov in 2000? I’ll take that!
Also, the evidence that will come out during the impeachment investigation and hearing will be extremely damning and Republicans other than in the Deep South will doom themselves by voting against removal…. your defeatist view and twisting yourself in pretzels to rationalize Pelosi’s cowardly non-strategy regarding this criminal is a sure losing argument for 2020.
People don’t vote for unprincipled cowards!
But don’t take my word for it.. how did Nancy’s strategery work out in 2010, 2012, 2014 and 2016? She’s a genius I tells ya!
Dems only won in 2018 because the populace is disgusted with Trump and now Pelosi is failing to deliver on that mandate.
I don’t see it as weak. She would never have taken this tack if she didn’t understand the real strengths of the Democrats and the weaknesses of Trump and his cronies.
Pelosi’s statements change as far as Democratic strength. She is still Speaker of the House, and several of the committees are holding hearings. In all, 17 investigations are ongoing — that we know about. Given that, reality is way more important than so-called “perception,” which varies widely and is very much subject to change.
That should have read “Pelosi’s statements change NOTHING as far as Democratic strength.”
The Republicans lost seats in the House and nearly lost control of it, and effectively lost the Senate in the 2000 election.
Gore won the 2000 election but a broken system awarded the effective tie in FL to George Bush, giving him the presidency.
That’s actually what happened.
Ha ha. They only `effectively’ lost the Senate when Sen Jeffords (who I can proudly say I worked for post-detection) defected, and the Repubs won it right back a little over a year later.
Republicans winning the House, Senate and WH around 2 years after impeaching Clinton strongly refutes the “we cant risk the Senate not removing” argument no matter how you try to spin it….. And, remember, that was only a blow job, not a lifetime of crime like Trump.
I don’t think Nancy is weak. But I have a question. If he is impeached now and it fails in the senate does that establish double jeopardy if he is charged with those crimes following his presidency?
I ask the question bc if that would result in double jeopardy, then just maybe we should talk him up to be a crook and simply beat him in 2020 and follow that up with eleventy million indictments on January 21 of 2021. Forget impeachment.
But if there is no such thing as double jeopardy after an impeachment, then we simply need to wait until all the shit is in and until we count 67 votes. If we try and fail though I wonder about the tale of going after the king and failing.
They went after Clinton, failed, and we got 6 years of Republican rule.
No, double jeopardy would ensue only upon being prosecuted twice for the same crime.
Impeachment not being prosecution except by analogy, it would not count. It’s a fitness-for-office test.
If Trump were haled before the Federal Court for the Southern New York District, and then again in the Eastern District of VA, for the same deed, there’d be a problem.
There’s no guarantee the Supreme Court wouldn’t twist it the other way, not after Bush v. Gore, but facially, double jeopardy isn’t an issue.
Good to hear. So we should go after this guy.
This has been done before, 19 years ago by the Republicans. They impeached Clinton for a blow job, knowing he wasn’t going to be removed. They just wanted to taint him and make people revile the Dem party. It worked!
This, however, isn’t a damn blow job.. It’s real affirmative criminal conduct, possibly rising to a level of conspiring with an enemy to disrupt an election.
In light of the foregoing, all this concern about not having the votes for removal strikes me as patently disingenuous. It has been proven by Republicans that you don’t need the Senate votes to obtain the desired affect.
What is the true reason behind avoiding doing the right and obvious thing — moving to impeach? Voice your real concern!
Are you scared of the cultists’ guns?
The “don’t want to invite further partisanship” excuse reeks of bullshit. We are at Civil War levels of partisanship as it is.
What I’m hearing from Pelosi is an argument that we should abandon the Constitution and the rule of law because the other side of the aisle is too crazy to accept reality. There is only one word for that type of argument — cowardice!
Take another look. I want this guy to go to jail. Jail, not off to Trump Tower in Moscow.
Brian Beutler explicates the Pelosi Standard.
Key concept: abdication.
It was just unnecessary at this time.
Exactly. Nancy Pelosi didn’t need to make any categorical statement on impeachment.
When she said “I’m going to give you some news”, it wasn’t about her views on impeachment. Her position was already completely clear to anyone who paid attention.
The news was that she was taking even the hypothetical threat of impeachment off the table. Her comment was undoubtedly pre-planned and intentional. She wanted her words on the front page of all the papers the next day and the target wasn’t Trump or the Republicans, she was smacking the more liberal Democrats in Congress.
The problem is that Trump fears being held accountable for his actions. That’s why he hates Mueller and why he hates Congressional investigations. He knows he’s vulnerable and the threat of punishment is the only thing that constrains his actions.
Jamie Raskin is my Congressman and in his campaign he stopped at my house and we talked. (I am locally active.) He’s an impressive intellect but is also a very warm individual, personally.
I basically agree with your analysis, Booman. Trump is an obvious criminal and even most GOP voters probably know this but they don’t care. So the case has to be built very carefully. I personally believe the GOP will never go against Trump even if he is definitively proven to be an active agent of Russia. They. don’t. care.
Footnote: I lived and worked in Ethiopia (Peace Corps). Ethiopian Airways was the first African airlines founded in 1947 with the support of TWA. It has one of the best air safety records in the world, not just Africa. This is all on Boeing and I’m pretty damned pissed because a lot of my environmental colleagues died in that crash.